Old-Time Music in Gangs of New York Movie
AlabamaBanjo
1846-1863 New York City, will be of some interest to old-time music
afficionados for its use of much fiddle and banjo music as background
to the gang warfare of Irish immigrants versus the "nativists". Also
some tunes played on hammered dulcimer (an anachronism?)... Several
theater scenes were quite interesting; one of them a version of
Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin, but alas no attempt at re-creating the
minstrel stage of the period.
Merry Christmas to all,
Jim
Carl Baron
AlabamaBanjo wrote:
> some tunes played on hammered dulcimer (an anachronism?)
I believe the instrument is pre-Biblical, or at least Biblical, so the
answer is no.
Carl
Joel Shimberg
>
>I believe the instrument is pre-Biblical, or at least Biblical, so the
>answer is no.
>
But that doesn't say anything about its appropriateness in NYC in the
1860s. In fact, there's an instruction book for the HD, "Haight's
System for the Dulcimer" that (if my memory serves) was published in
Iowa in the 1840s, which would back up your response.
Joel
Tribe
> Several
> theater scenes were quite interesting; one of them a version of
> Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin, but alas no attempt at re-creating the
> minstrel stage of the period.
Would the audience who attended minstrel shows at that time been of the
"refined" sort, or would such shows have been more attractive to the
sort of rough around the edges characters depicted in the film?
Tribe
Brendan J. Doyle
gohee...@yahoo.com (AlabamaBanjo) wrote:
"Gangs of New York" very nearly had one of our own, Earl White, featured
onscreen playing fiddle, but alas, it was not to be. During the making
of the film, Bob Carlin had been contacted by someone about locating an
African-American fiddler to be featured in some scenes. I believe Joe
Thompson had been suggested by somebody, but I think he couldn't do it
for health and maybe other reasons. So I got a phone message from Bob to
pass on to Earl White (who's living not far from here, in Santa Cruz,
CA) to see if Earl was interested in the part. Earl sent his bio and
some materials to Martin Scorsese's team, including a live CD of a gig
Earl had played with Dan Warrick, Martha Hawthorne, and myself at
Ashkenaz dance club in Berkeley. They got back to him, saying that
Scorsese had personally heard and liked the music, and they wanted to
make arrangements for Earl to travel to Rome (where it was being filmed)
to meet them and audition!
Earl then didn't hear from them for some time, and then, not long before
he was supposed to go to Rome, they contacted him and said that for
budgetary reasons, the part had been dropped (at least, I think that was
what he was told). The guy who was most excited about Earl had been in
the hospital and was unable to attend the meeting where this decision
was made.
So Earl almost got to be a (minor) movie star - it was too bad that it
fell through at the last minute.
--
Brendan Doyle
to reply via email, remove *nospam* from address
David Sanderson
Refined folks attended minstrel shows all the time, as far as I know.
The range of available live entertainment was very wide at that time,
from Shakespeare to all kinds of other plays to minstrel shows to
"museums" like Barnum's; and I'm not sure there was much class
distinction amongst the patrons.
--
David Sanderson
East Waterford, Maine
Brittles
asked:
<< Would the audience who attended minstrel shows at that time been of the
"refined" sort, or would such shows have been more attractive to the sort of
rough around the edges characters depicted in the film? >>
Hi Tribe-
For an excellent view of the "context" of the minstrel shows, and early banjo
music, try reading "Demons of Disorder", By Dale Cockrell
I saw his pre-publication presentation, at the "Banjo and Antebellum Culture"
Conference back in '97 (?).
He researched the New York papers of the time period, and put together a
fascinating picture of the "seamy" side of NY "cultural" life...
No, this was not your Aunt Martha's minstrel show.
(Unless she went by the title "Madam"... ;-)
I haven't read the book, yet. (Hopefully, it's under the tree at the moment.)
Haven't seen the movie yet, ether. Hope to - on New Years Day. (While everyone
ELSE is home watching the bowl games...)
Hope the holidays are good to everyone -
Ed Britt
Please Remove *UNSPAM* from my address, to e-mail me.
Brittles
Wrote:
<< Refined folks attended minstrel shows all the time, as far as I know. The
range of available live entertainment was very wide at that time, from
Shakespeare to all kinds of other plays to minstrel shows to "museums" like
Barnum's; and I'm not sure there was much class distinction amongst the
patrons.>>
Depended more on location, and specific venue. Some were in rough areas of
town. Some were in the local town hall.
Barnum WAS also a minstrel promoter - and hired Sweeney, among others, for some
circus performences. (One in Boston, I believe.)
Best-
Carl Baron
Joel Shimberg wrote:
from
http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmah/hdhist.htm
Dulcimers were reasonably common domestic and concert instruments in the
United States during the 18th and 19th centuries. No doubt they were first
brought to the colonies from England where they were used in the street
music of the time. Portability and simplicity made the dulcimer much more
practical than the piano for many settlers. These attributes probably led
to its association with the lumber camps of Maine and Michigan. It is still
referred to as a "lumberjack's piano" in the North. As names for the
dulcimer go, however, the American appellation "whamadiddle" must be ranked
as most colorful, with a close second in the German term "hackbrett,"
literally "chopping board!"
Carl
David Sanderson
Most of what I know about all this I get from the life and career of
Artemus Ward (Charles F. Browne), the most popular humorist in America
during the Civil War. He was a great fan of minstrel shows, plays and
the like; and when he travelled performing his humorous "lectures"
(maybe the first to make a living doing standup comedy) he attended
minstrel shows and hung out with the performers, as a matter of fact.
But your comment is surely correct; Artemus' friends were the
professionals working in Philadelphia and other major cities, where the
audience would have included a full range of socioeconomic groups.
It is also of some interest to note (more or less irrelevantly) that the
minstrel show form became immensely popular with local performers, who
continued to stage minstrel shows in country towns long after it ceased
to be a major form of nationally popular entertainment. They happened
with some regularity around here in the nineteen-teens, for example.
Paul Tyler
mid-1800s. But since it was primarily of the product of rural makers and
small-town manufactories (unlike the banjo in succeeding decades), it might
not have been common in the big city. However, there has always been
constant movement between America's rural districts and urban areas.
The big question is how it was played. Haven't seen the movie. But let me
recommend Paul Gifford's book The Hammered Dulcimer from Scarecrow Press.
About half the book is a seemingly comprehensive treatment of the dulcimer's
presence in American musical culture (The other half covers other parts of
the world). The dulcimer revival gets a short chapter at the end. Paul's
ability to collect scraps of reminiscence over many years, combined with a
thorough search of historical sources, provides as amazing view into a
little-understood aspect of old time music.
Paul Tyler
Carl Baron
Paul Tyler wrote:
> The dulcimer is not Biblical
but appears to be pre-Biblical
from
http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmah/hdhist.htm
The ancient origins of the dulcimer are undoubtedly in the Near East, where
instruments of this type have been made and played for perhaps 5000 years.
Santir and
psanterim were names early applied to such instruments and are probably derived
from the Greek psalterion. Today the dulcimer is known as the santouri in Greece
and as the santur in India.
Carl
Duc de Savoie
>onscreen playing fiddle, but alas, it was not to be. During the making
>of the film, Bob Carlin had been contacted by someone about locating an
>African-American fiddler to be featured in some scenes. I believe Joe
>Thompson had been suggested by somebody, but I think he couldn't do it
>for health and maybe other reasons. So I got a phone message from Bob to
>pass on to Earl White (who's living not far from here, in Santa Cruz,
>CA) to see if Earl was interested in the part.
I got to see and hear Earl two years ago at the New England Fiddle Contest in
Hartford, CT. He's terrific. Has he cut any CDs?
Bud
Geff Crawford
stuff apparently at people's fingertips. And they don't just read about it,
they play it too. Why do we worry that this music will die out? It's
burning in not a whole lot of places, but where it is, it's on fire.
Oh, and to all the off-topic mis-posters who wander here (Annette and Buck?
Oh please.), take a lesson.
Geff
Kosuke Takaki
> So Earl almost got to be a (minor) movie star - it was too bad that it
> fell through at the last minute.
Oh,it's too bad.I almost run into the movie theater.But at least,Earl
appeared on japanese TV one time.When the japanese TV crews followed
Ken Inoue from NYC to Galax,they shoot our band, the Manco
Lickers(Earl and Shimachan on fiddles ,Bosco on bj,Kazumi Inoue on g)
on stage.It was simetime in 80'.
Bosco
Paul Tyler
> > The dulcimer is not Biblical
And you sez right back to me:
> but appears to be pre-Biblical
And tries to confuse the issue with facts
> from
> http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmah/hdhist.htm
> The ancient origins of the dulcimer are undoubtedly in the Near East
But I won't stand for it, so I sez at ya:
And the fiddle dates from the same time and place, but the shape has
changed, as has it's construction and the number of strings and tuning
scheme and playing techniques &c. Same things are true of bowed lutes as of
plucked and struck zithers. Just because two instruments belong to the same
family doesn't mean they're the same.
Paul "full of peace and love" Tyler
PS Happy holidays to everybody
cool as grits bob
.
.
I remember that!! Ken also played with Dave Bass and Cool as Grits
that year taking Mike Fleck's place on banjo. Seems like it might have
been '90 but it has been a long time regardless.........
.
.
Kosuke Takaki
>that year taking Mike Fleck's place on banjo.
>Seems like it might have been '90 but it has been a long time >regardless.........
Yes,yes it could be early '90.
Bosco
Duc de Savoie
>family doesn't mean they're the same.
The pre-eminent proof of which pudding is the 5-string banjo, a completely
different instrument from the Tenor or Plectrum.
By the way, I understand that the Gangs of New York is a heavy turkey.
Bud
cool as grits bob
Yes that's right ... Mike Fleck was , like me , a member of the band
only at Galax . It seems like Ken was often unable to travel to Galax
in those days so when he did show up it seemed like a change.
Bob
.
.
Kosuke Takaki
>1846-1863 New York City, will be of some interest to old-time music
>afficionados for its use of much fiddle and banjo music as background
Konnichiwa-
Went to see the movie yesterday.One tune I recognized is "Dan Tucker"
by Nathan Frazier & Frank Patterson.Best Nashville sound ever in the
movies.
Bosco