Tuning Up Fiddle (AEAE) Without Breaking Strings?
Steve Goldfield
I put new strings on the fiddle I've been learning to
play for almost 4 months about a week ago. Influenced
by discussions in this newsgroup, I bought three Prim
and a Dominant wound E. I had a friend (Dave Rainwater,
who makes and repairs fiddles) watch me and explain how
to put them on so I'd loop the strings right.
Then I decided to watch Brad Leftwich's Homespun video;
right at the beginning he says to tune up to AEAE. I did
so and proceeded to break my new D and E strings. I did
get them replaced by my friendly string salesman (Larry,
the Thin Man), but he commented that the manufacturer of
the D string wouldn't replace it because I had tried to tune
it above pitch. (I also had to take a Thomastik E since he
didn't have another Dominant.)
I know that lots of people are tuning up their strings for
cross tunings (my G string went up to A with no problem).
What should I have done to lessen the risk of breaking
the strings while tuning above standard pitch. (Why the E
broke is a mystery.) Since strings are so expensive (banjo
strings are a lot cheaper and don't seem to object to being
tuned up well above pitch), I'd like to do whatever is necessary
to avoid breakage. (I know that lots of fiddlers carry two
instruments and keep one tuned up, but that's not an option for
me right now.)
Thanks for any helpful and useful tips.
Steve
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
Steve Goldfield :<{ {>: ste...@uclink.berkeley.edu
--
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
Steve Goldfield :<{ {>: ste...@uclink.berkeley.edu
Jon Pankake
Steve Goldfield wrote:
>
>I decided to watch Brad Leftwich's Homespun video;
> right at the beginning he says to tune up to AEAE. I did
> What should I have done to lessen the risk of breaking
> the strings while tuning above standard pitch.
The way I look at it, any tune you can play in AEAE you can also play in GDGD,
with the strings tuned below pitch. Easier on the string budget and funkier sounding,
too.
Scott C DeLancey
In article <4vtbl5$o...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Steve Goldfield <ste...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>play for almost 4 months about a week ago. Influenced
>by discussions in this newsgroup, I bought three Prim
>and a Dominant wound E. I had a friend (Dave Rainwater,
>Then I decided to watch Brad Leftwich's Homespun video;
>right at the beginning he says to tune up to AEAE. I did
>so and proceeded to break my new D and E strings. I did
What I've heard is, you can't tune Dominants above pitch,
they'll break. If you want to cross-tune (and you do, you
do) steel strings are probably safest.
Some also say that only steel gives you that real old-time sound,
but I kind of like the sound of some of the synthetics. Dominants
are OK; those new Tonicas are really nice.
Does anybody know if there are any synthetic strings that will
stand tuning high? That might save me having to buy another
fiddle ...
Scott DeLancey
VSeitz
Violin strings are very pitch sensitive. Steel core strings can take
tuning up more than strings of other cores. But you will still get that
one string that will break no matter what the core is, so if you tune
above standard tuning keep plenty of strings on hand. Also, very
important, keep the points where the strings touch the instrument
accurately cut and lubricated with graphite. Be sure the srting is not
pinched at the nut, bridge, and tailpiece. Lubricate these areas with a
#2 or lower pencil lead (graphite), and look in the pegbox to see if a
string is laying on a peg ahead of it. e.g. the "a"string lays on the
"e"peg right before it gets to the nut. If this is the case you will
always break strings unless you get the peg holes bushed and redrilled to
the proper profile.
Geoffrey J. Seitz, Violinmaker
Susan Sterngold
tune fiddle to gdgd. that way you get the benefit of crosstuning without
strain on the fiddle. That's the old "Bobville" tuning. Back in the old
days at Galax we would play for hours on end in that tuning.
Lyle & Elizabeth Lofgren
Here's a sophisticated alternative that shouldn't be too hard on your
strings: tune your fiddle to DDAD. You can play lots of good stuff
in that tuning. Then, run all the strings up 1/2 step to E-flat,
E-flat, B-flat, E-flat, and you'll be able to play those fancy E-flat
fiddle tunes that were the subject of a discussion in this newsgroup
about a month ago. And, if you ever play with others who have guitars
and banjos, it's fun to watch them try to figure out how to capo to
E-flat. It's even more fun if there's a harmonica player in your
group -- ever tried to find an E-flat harmonica in a music store?
Jon Pankake <pank...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>Steve Goldfield wrote:
>>
>>I decided to watch Brad Leftwich's Homespun video;
>> right at the beginning he says to tune up to AEAE. I did
David Lynch
In article <4vtbl5$o...@agate.berkeley.edu>, ste...@uclink.berkeley.edu
(Steve Goldfield) wrote:
Steve,
I see that a few people have suggested tuning to GDGD (bringing the A and
E strings down). I tune this way quite often, but Don Minnerly told me he
thinks that tuning this way puts more stress on the fiddle, since the A
and E strings are under more tension than the lower strings, so retuning
those strings down subjects the fiddle to greater variations in tension
than tuning the G and D strings up. This information has not deterred me
from tuning to GDGD when I feel like it, but I thought you'd like to know.
Also, there's a mail order company called The Woodwind and the Brasswind,
that has a division called Discount String Center. Their strings cost at
least half what they do at your local retailer.
--Namaste',
--David Lynch
--web: http://www.primenet.com/~dsl/
Check out the Old-Time Music Home Page:
http://www.primenet.com/~dsl/oldtime.html
"HOKUM: It's there when you need it."
-Watson,P.L.
Actually, your friendly guitarist probably wouldn't
have a lot of trouble. They'd just capo up one and
use D pattern chording.
It might take banjo players longer to figure it
out, though I won't go into detail on why. Depends
on how flexible they are. I notice Cathy Barton
(Cathy Para? Cathy Barton-Para?) does some stuff in
F, probably capoing 3 or 5 frets, depending on how
she tunes her banjo. I'll bet SHE wouldn't have any
problem with E flat.
Paul Watson, plwa...@lucent.com
Lucent Technologies Inc.
------------------------------------------
In article <4vul53$2...@epx.cis.umn.edu>,
Lyle & Elizabeth Lofgren <lofg...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>Here's a sophisticated alternative that shouldn't be too hard on your
>strings: tune your fiddle to DDAD. You can play lots of good stuff
>in that tuning. Then, run all the strings up 1/2 step to E-flat,
>E-flat, B-flat, E-flat, and you'll be able to play those fancy E-flat
>fiddle tunes that were the subject of a discussion in this newsgroup
>about a month ago. And, if you ever play with others who have guitars
>and banjos, it's fun to watch them try to figure out how to capo to
>E-flat. It's even more fun if there's a harmonica player in your
>group -- ever tried to find an E-flat harmonica in a music store?
>
[stuff deleted]
Bruce Reid
I, too, was plagued with broken strings while cross tuning to AEAE using
Dominants--for a while I think I kept that company afloat.
But my fiddle is pretty gutless (excuse the pun) with steel strings.
Then I found these "rope core" strings--don't ask me what that means--
that are called:
Kunstler-Seil-saiten Superflexible made by Thomastik-Infeld Wien
I am very happy with these. They give my fiddle the depth of tone I had
with the Dominants but they virtually never break, and I readily tune up
and down all the time. After several months of hard playing they will
start to loose tone and intonation, so I probably change strings two or
three times a year.
I *love* to play in GDGD tuning--the tone is very sweet and is what I hear
on several old recordings. But I would not go with this as a solution to
the string breaking problem. I guess I don't believe in succumbing to the
limitations of a particular problem like that. If I feel like playing up,
I want to play up. GDGD certainly doesn't give you the scream of AEAE,
though I must admit it saves the vocal chords a bit.
Happy fiddling,
WB
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
re...@sdd.hp.com
john burke
Just use all Prim strings.
Steel fiddle strings should never break. I've used the same set of
Prims for 6-7 years. There's no need for a wound E string. And the
winding goes a lot quicker on the E than the others.
Also, don't retune your fiddle --- especially if you are just
learning. Retuning is a sort of novelty thing. You should learn to
play with the fiddle tuned normally in fifths. Once you play well in
standard tuning, then try retuning for special effects once in a
while.
I never heard a "retuned" tune that couldn't be played just as well
in standard tuning, just by playing out of a different position, so
the relationships of adjacent strings is similar to when you retune.
I'm not saying the sound is exactly the same, but the effect is
pretty much the same.
For example, to play Black Mt Rag, just play the "A chord" in second
position (A on the D string with 3rd finger; C# on the second string
with 1st finger). Use your pinky on the 2nd string to play the F#
notes you would usually play on the 1st strng. This gives the same
"open" sound as retuning, but without the hassle. Also you will learn
something useful about the fingerboard.
The biggest problem with retuning is that after someone plays one
tune retuned, the novelty effect wears off. Unless you have pretty
good equipment, switching among tunings can be pretty tricky --- most
players never quite get the thing in pitch at all. Banjo players do
it all the time, but the banjo is never really in tune anyway, so
it's less obvious that the bad intonation results from retuning.
I'm not against retuning completely, but it's a lousy way to learn
the fiddle. And its also a waste of several hundred years of
development of the instrument. Tuning in fifths is incredibly
efficient. The issue is similar to "flattening" the bridge. It makes
things a little easier in the beginning, but you never really develop
your bowing technique properly. The "classic" bridge shape is pretty
optimal. In fact the whole instrument is pretty near perfect. In the
long run you'll be happier with your playing if you learn the
instrument as it is instead of tinkering around with it.
JB
Brad Leftwich
I use Prim steel strings with an unwound E; in fact, Steve, those are
Prims that I'm tuning up and down in the video. I change my strings on
average every year or two, and I think I've broken only two or three
strings in the last 25 years, in spite of tuning up and down on nearly a
daily basis. So I suspect a problem with your fiddle setup.
I have to respectfully disagree with John Burke concerning his advice
not to retune and not to use a flat bridge. In many parts of the
country, these are (or at least were, as recently as my grandparents'
generation) essential elements of style and part of the tradition going
back as far as anyone can remember. They're only novelties from the
perspective of other traditions -- notably classical violin and
commercial genres that derive much of their technique from classical
violin. Abandoning the multiple tunings and flat bridge of traditional
Southern fiddling substantially changes its character -- and in my
opinion it doesn't improve it, it impoverishes it.
For a great rebuttal to the "retuning is cheating" point of view, see
Jody Stecher's article on cross-tuning in the most recent "Fiddler"
magazine. I love his analogy about telling a Greek cook, "Of *course*
your food tastes delicious... you cheated by using olive oil."
--Brad Leftwich
left...@indiana.edu
Bo Bradham
john burke <johns...@msn.com> wrote:
>...
>Also, don't retune your fiddle --- especially if you are just
>learning. Retuning is a sort of novelty thing. You should learn to
>play with the fiddle tuned normally in fifths. Once you play well in
>standard tuning, then try retuning for special effects once in a
>while.
There is a considerable body of fiddle music which is based on
non-standard tunings. "Just learning" is a relative term, but I
think it's important to everyone's growth as a fiddle player that
at some time they familiarize themselves with a few of the more
common tunings (for me these are AEAE AEAC# and DDAD, low to high).
Even if you wind up adapting the tunes to standard tuning (which
I confess to having done) you'll have a better understanding of
what they should sound like.
As far as it being a "novelty", let me just say that I have seldom
been at a jam session which came back from an excursion into
cross-tuning. It's a one-way ticket, and the sun will come up
before those fiddles go back into "regular."
>I never heard a "retuned" tune that couldn't be played just as well
>in standard tuning, just by playing out of a different position, so
>the relationships of adjacent strings is similar to when you retune.
>I'm not saying the sound is exactly the same, but the effect is
>pretty much the same.
>
>For example, to play Black Mt Rag, just play the "A chord" in second
>position ...
Even if one could rise to the technical challenge of playing
Black Mountain Rag without re-tuning, and even if one could make
it sound good, it wouldn't sound right. There are indeed many
tunes which adapt from the cross-tunings to standard, but they
do not sound the same, that's why cross-tuning exists. The
instrument sounds different, there are different resonances and the
relationship of the open strings to the noted strings is different.
You can rock the bow over to the low strings (called "striking the
bass") and give accompaniment to yourself, for instance. You
can't do that on an A tune in standard tuning, the notes aren't
right!
> ...In the
>long run you'll be happier with your playing if you learn the
>instrument as it is instead of tinkering around with it.
I think the same could be said of learning the body of literature
that is fiddle music. I deleted the part where you mentioned the
"efficiency" of the standard violin tuning, but I'll just mention
that it would be remarkably inefficient to
bulldoze one's way thru Black Mountain Rag in standard tuning
when it was written in AEAC# (which by the way is frequently
called "Black Mountain" tuning because of its association with
that tune).
Bo Bradham
--
"Learning to drive a car is easier than learning to play the
fiddle. And it's a lot safer, too" -- Kevin Burke
Betty & Billy Cornette
I've been going through some experimentation lately, as well. Though
I come at it from a different direction. I love the richness of tone
that wound gut strings give, as well as the softer touch under the
fingers. But while they sing on waltzes and 'pretty' tunes, they fall
short for shuffling. The D & G tend to sound scrubby, muddying up the
sound. So my compromise has been to use two fiddles, one with some kind
of rope core, to get the soft feel and good response for fast tunes, and
the other in guts for the shmaltz. In trying to eliminate carrying two
instruments for traveling I tried a few new types on my 'waltz' fiddle.
D'Addario has started making fiddle strings, and their newest style,
"Helicore", is a stranded-cable core, wrapped in various metals to suit
each string. I put these on in January, traveled overseas, played in hot
living rooms, smokey pubs and damp Irish afternoons without having a
problem. They held their pitch, and didn't squawk at cross-tunings.
However, they did sound fairly dead by May, so I put on a new set. But I
felt good about them meeting all my needs-- a warm tone with good lively
response. Perlons and other synthetic cores which try to substitute for
gut only sound hollow and ringy to me. The Helicores sound fine. I like
the Thomastik rope cores, too. But I have found that for a truly even
tone across all the strings I prefer to use Pirastro's gold-plated E
string. It doesn't squeal unless you want it to, and comes across better
over a mic. Most steel Es over-power (over-screech) the A when playing
the two at once. The gold E is a more benevolent match, and sounds good
with most other brands, on most fiddles we've tried.
I've never lost a string to cross-tuning, unless the wrapping got
damaged and caught on the nut or bridge. I agree that consistent
problems with this is more likely the fiddle than the strings.
GOOD LUCK!! --Betty Vornbrock
Antiope
In article <32256A...@indiana.edu>, Brad Leftwich
wow. I must not be taking care of my strings or something. I find I have
to change about every 6 months or less. I use Prim GDA, with a Pirastro
Gold label (unwound) E. Not that I know what I'm doing, my teacher just
told me to use them. But I find the winding on the D and A tends to spread
apart where I stop the strings most frequently, and it makes them sound
funny. So I just change the whole set when they get that way. I wipe
strings, but I'm kinda afraid to use alcohol on them like some people tell
me they do, though I did once. It's a nice fiddle, and I'm afraid I'd muck
up the finish.
I don't break strings when I cross-tune except for once, when I was a real
beginner, I was trying to learn a tune from a recording, and the liner
notes said that the performer used EAEA tuning. Having never seen anyone
call the tuning in reverse order from high-to-low, I actually tried tuning
that E string up to an A. Boingggg
I know, thank you for sharing...
Mary Ann
JimMando
Re: Steve Goldfield's Problem with Dominants breaking in AEAE
I have been using them for years and, in fact, tuning the same set I now
have on for about 6 months with no visible wear. Yes, they break from time
to time but a lot less than my guitar's strings.
As far as John Burke's comments on learning in standard: Firstly,
cross-tuning is an intergral part of the old time sound. Certain tunes
just sound better and resonate in those tunings. That is the heart of the
music. Yes, a classical approach will help in some instances. On the other
hand, we are not playing Paganini or Mozart.
Just a sidenote: anumber of years ago I heard an Armenian fiddler play
some amzingly beautiful tunes on his spike fiddle. I asked him how it was
tuned. He told me AEAE. In addition, there is a long tradition in
pre-"Classical" music (early music, if you will) of alternate tuning for
vielles, lutes, gambas.
Mark Gaponoff
In article <00001fa0...@msn.com> john burke, johns...@msn.com
writes:
>I never heard a "retuned" tune that couldn't be played just as well...
John has a point in that being facile in standard tuning is important
in developing skills. I think people rush a little too quick for the
cross tunings, before they have built a good foundation in standard
tuning. Gotta build that mental/motor/aural map.
Yes, cross-tuning is traditional, and can be less fatiguing for those
long dances on many tunes, but it can also be overdone.
Many fiddles can very cantankerous about being cross-tuned (and a
fiddle drifting out of tune sounds awful). I know I personaaly found it
unsatisfying to cross-tune until I got a second fiddle that was set up
for it (mechanical tuners, etc.).
One of the nice things about folk music is that it belongs to everyone,
including oneself. Thus you can respect tradition on one hand and do it
your way on the other, and do just fine.
>-- Mark Gaponoff (gapo...@halcyon.com): K.I.C.K. (Keep It Complex, Kiddo)
<<My opinions are now the responsibility of the reader.>> 73's DE KJ7EM
Bill Richardson
I learned my fiddling from old-timers in southwest virginia and my friends
in and around Blacksburg who play the music. When I started I kept the
fiddle in "high bass" (AEAE or GDGD). I eventually graduated to "low
bass" (ADAE), for the key of D (or C). I rarely use any tunings other
than high bass and low bass. I know, that doesn't say much for my ability
as a fiddler, but it puts me solidly in the tradition of old-time music in
my region. While there are lots of fiddlers around here who play out of
standard, and maybe never even leave standard, like Benton Flippen, I
would say the old-time fiddlers who do play in high bass predominate.
The high bass/low bass tunings have a direct correlation with the two main
banjo tunings, which also can be called high bass and low bass. The key
doesn't matter- G, A, F or G#, they all can be high bass.
Beverly and Mildred Thompson were a fiddle and banjo playing couple from
Smyth County, Va. They played wonderfully tight music together, that
evolved over their many years of marriage into many unique and "crooked"
versions of common fiddle tunes. Most of their music was high bass and
low bass rather than being in particular keys.
There's a distinction between the many beginning fiddlers and the
experienced ones in Blacksburg- all the beginners are afraid to retune
their fiddles! I agree that AEAE is a good way to start out in old-time
fiddling.
Did we mention this as a distinction between bluegass and old-time music?
Has anyone ever heard of bluegrass fiddling out of high bass?
Bill Richardson
Blacksburg, Va
Gordon Banks
In article <32225D...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Jon Pankake <pank...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> writes:
>Steve Goldfield wrote:
>>
>>I decided to watch Brad Leftwich's Homespun video;
>> right at the beginning he says to tune up to AEAE. I did
>> so and proceeded to break my new D and E strings. ...
>
You're lucky. I broke the G string (the expensive one).
>> What should I have done to lessen the risk of breaking
>> the strings while tuning above standard pitch.
>
>The way I look at it, any tune you can play in AEAE you can also play in GDGD,
>with the strings tuned below pitch. Easier on the string budget and funkier sounding,
>too.
A lot of the older fiddlers played with such low tunings anyhow, I understand.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks N3JXP |"Information is gushing at your brain like a
http://www.pitt.edu/~gebanks | firehose pointed at a teacup." - Dogbert
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Goldfield
In article <50peee$c...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
Bill Richardson <bill...@caspian.ext.vt.edu> wrote:
#>my region. While there are lots of fiddlers around here who play out of
#>standard, and maybe never even leave standard, like Benton Flippen, I
#>would say the old-time fiddlers who do play in high bass predominate.
Somebody asked Benton at Fiddle Tunes this year why he only plays
in standard. He said that he used to play tunes in various tunings,
but once he started performing, he relearned them all in standard
so he wouldn't have to retune on stage.
Fiddlr
To all of those righteous souls who insist that it's proper and good to
play only in standard tuning, I say:
"Retune it or DIE!"
Brian Sullivan
fid...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/PTIpatent1/PTI/PTI.html
"Get up, Kate. We can make more money plowing than we can playing the
fiddle."-John Morgan Salyer
Kenny Jackson
For a lot of tunes in C, G, F, Bb, etc., you certainly need to
learn your way around in standard tuning. I can think of no good
reason, however, to believe that "developing skills" in standard
tuning is particularly helpful as a prelude to learning to play
in cross-tuning. That would be like saying that learning scales
on a standard-tuned guitar is a great help in learning to play
bottleneck Delta blues in open tunings on that instrument. I
suppose it all depends on what you want to learn to play. A
great deal of the most powerful southern fiddle music most
emphatically cannot be played just as well in standard tuning as
in the various "cross" and other tunings. You may be able to
play the melody, but not the music. You can't get the drones, you
can't get the resonance, you can't get the groove!
Jack Link
ste...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) wrote:
>Somebody asked Benton at Fiddle Tunes this year why he only plays
>in standard. He said that he used to play tunes in various tunings,
>but once he started performing, he relearned them all in standard
>so he wouldn't have to retune on stage.
>--
Me too. I used to swat it out four sets a night in loud bars.
Getting in tune *once* was worth a Nobel prize. These here
whippersnappers these days that won't play 'less you can hear a pin
drop oughta hafta do a tour of tavern duty.
BTW, thanks to Bill Richardson for putting things in perspective. If
they play in cross-key in your region, fine, but it's regional. To
make blanket pronunciamentos to the effect that cross-key is The
Oltime Way just bespeaks a lack of broad experience.
And regarding standard tuning in Bluegrass: first, it's more
prevalent in older fiddling than some folks seem to know; second, the
early bluegrass fiddlers were without exception fine old-time
fiddlers; and besides, would *you* cross-tune if the Boss was likely
as not to do the next tune in the People's Key of B?
Jack
*************************
jack...@olympus.net
Knowing prevents learning
*************************
Bo Bradham
Jack Link <jack...@olympus.net> wrote:
>
>BTW, thanks to Bill Richardson for putting things in perspective. If
>they play in cross-key in your region, fine, but it's regional. To
>make blanket pronunciamentos to the effect that cross-key is The
>Oltime Way just bespeaks a lack of broad experience.
I don't think anyone made the blanket assertion you're arguing against. No
one said, as far as I know, that cross-tuning was the norm or
"The Oltime Way" everywhere, or that it was more universal than standard
or anything like that. Bill did say that in his region most
fiddlers use a non-standard tuning. That may or may not be, but all
the other people who've written have simply said things like:
"They're only novelties from the perspective of other traditions --
notably classical violin and commercial genres that derive much of
their technique from classical violin. Abandoning the multiple tunings
and flat bridge of traditional Southern fiddling substantially changes
its character -- and in my opinion it doesn't improve it, it
impoverishes it."
- Brad Leftwich in article <32256A...@indiana.edu>.
[I'm leaving the "flat bridge" thing alone. That's a whole other
can of worms.]
And:
"Firstly, cross-tuning is an intergral part of the old time sound.
Certain tunes just sound better and resonate in those tunings. That
is the heart of the music."
-jimm...@aol.com (JimMando) in
article <50g34u$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
What people have said is that cross-tuning lends character to some
tunes in particular, and to fiddling in general. And while it is not
universal in the sense that it supercedes "standard" tuning, it is universal
in that you can find it most anywhere you go. Peter Ostroushko
has a medley of tunes in AEAC#, one of them is Ukrainian, one is
French-Canadian ("Hangman's Reel") and one is American ("Lost
Indian", I think).
Some of the fiddlers who have recorded in other-than-standard
tunings, just in my limited record collection, include Benny
Thomasson, Mark O'Connor, Jean Carignan, J.P. Fraley, and Tommy
Jarrell. The Cape Breton fiddler Sandy MacIntyre said in Fiddler
magazine that his grandfather used AEAE.
So I'm not sure what your point is. "No one plays in
'cross-tuning' all the time?" No argument. "Some fiddlers live long
and happy lives without ever cross-tuning?" No argument. "There's
no need to learn about cross-tuning?" Big argument.
Ultimately it's a choice for every fiddler to make, but to say at
the outset "don't bother" is to ignore a large portion of the world
of fiddle music.
Dmarts
Seems like some old timers who play in standard approach it more like a
cross key. Instead of the single string/single note, they go for the
drones availble in that tuning (i.e. Wild Horse gives you the G and D
drone plus the Em drone on the high part). That has a different flavor
than just reworking any old tune into that tuning(Bonaparte's Retreat in
the key of G!?!).
Dave
qltv41
A view from the Old World....
From 'A Guide to Bowing' by J Scott Skinner:
Trick Fiddling, etc.
====================
All this sort of thing is pitiful, and makes the judicious grieve. By
screwing down the D string to zero and tuning the G to A, one can give a
kind of Bagpipe imitation, but the Violin was never intended for such
mutilation. An old idea was to tune the G and D strings to A and E and
play
Reels, etc. No artist would descend to such devices for the sake of mere
applause. The province of art is to elevate and enliven, but surely
never
tend to degeneracy.
Bernie Stocks
John Grimm
Good point about playing in bars. I often bring two fiddles. One is tuned
standard and the other cross keyed but I still have problems with all the
various tunings. If you can get the guitar player to gently strum while
introducing the next tune you can tune up pretty quick on some fiddles. The
problem with most good fiddles is that the tops are thinner and they often
require tuning each string more than once as pressure exerted on the top of
the fiddle changes the pitch as you go. John Grimm
Jack Link <jack...@olympus.net> wrote in article
<512u5j$1...@hoh.olympus.net>...
Bill Blevins
>>Jack Link <jack...@olympus.net> wrote:
>>>BTW, thanks to Bill Richardson for putting things in perspective. If
>>>they play in cross-key in your region, fine, but it's regional. To
>>>make blanket pronunciamentos to the effect that cross-key is The
>>>Oltime Way just bespeaks a lack of broad experience.
Yes but may I fuel this debate with "if you DON'T play in cross tuning,
then you are NOT an old-time fiddler".
Pick up on that, Jack!
BB
john burke
>Yes but may I fuel this debate with "if you DON'T play in cross tuning,
>then you are NOT an old-time fiddler".
Aside from the fact that this statement is wrong --- who cares. With
music it makes more sense to listen to what people do, not what they
don't do. Saying a person is or is not an old-time fiddler is pretty
meaningless. Just listen to the music, or not.
Paul M. Gifford
>>>Jack Link <jack...@olympus.net> wrote:
>>>>BTW, thanks to Bill Richardson for putting things in perspective. If
>>>>they play in cross-key in your region, fine, but it's regional. To
>>>>make blanket pronunciamentos to the effect that cross-key is The
>>>>Oltime Way just bespeaks a lack of broad experience.
>Yes but may I fuel this debate with "if you DON'T play in cross tuning,
>then you are NOT an old-time fiddler".
Jack's right----it's a regional thing. Anyway, labels like "old-time" are
just that----labels. In certain situations, rock, pop, and country are all
old-time, but it depends on the venue. For example, I used to play for
dances at a rod-and-gun club in rural Michigan with a caller who had
been active since the late '30s, and all very traditional calls and dances.
There was an electric guitarist in the band, who had started when Les Paul
was all the rage, and he played lead on "It Had to Be You," "Tiny Bubbles,"
"Red Sails in the Sunset," and did one rock number. Taken alone, his music
might be considered pre-rock "pop," but the whole event was "old-time." After
all, styles change. If someone were to play all pre-1960 country-western hits,
for dancing, and then played a couple of old tunes for listening (with no
square dancing), and if it took place in a bar, then I probably wouldn't
consider it "old-time."
Maybe the difference is whether the performers are oriented to the
Nashville scene or not, and whether they are likely to mix music from
different traditions and genres or not. If they mix 'em up a lot, and don't
go to Opryland or tour Webb Pierce's home on their vacations, and don't
follow strict instrumental guidelines, then I'd say they're old-time, no matter
how they tune the fiddle (as long as it's got four, not five, strings).
Paul Gifford
Charlie Possum
Right on Jack. There's a huge body of music---I'll venture it's
vastly larger than the cross-tnued stuff--that can be considered
in the purview of old-time fiddlers which could never be played in
a cross-tuning and would sound like H___ if tried.
I think a lot of folks gravitate to x-tunings because to be quite
honest 90 % of the tunes there are easy as heck to play. There is
some real music (I heard Mark Campbell play an amazing Stripling
Bros piece in the contest at Clifftop this summer and also come of
Benny Thmoasson's crossed tuned pieces) played in cross but the
vast majority of it relies heavily on droning, does not demand
precision in fingering or bowing and could be taught to a novice
in three easy lessons. Don't get me wrong, I like this stuff but
it ain't tuff to play. And you can be an old-time fiddler without
employing cross-tuning. It's regional thing for sure and also a
matter of personal preference, talent, context and other factors.
Charlie "Possum" Walden
WVdulcimer
> And you can be an old-time fiddler without
>employing cross-tuning. It's regional thing for sure and also a
>matter of personal preference, talent, context and other factors.
Franklin George, for one, almost never never plays anything cross-tuned.
(I have seen him in a kilt, so he's apparently not averse to
cross-dressing.) He says "You got the same notes either way, so why do
it?" but more seriously says maybe many of the old-timers played very
cheap, very poorly set-up fiddles and had to try anything to make them
playable. (If you had to try to play real music on a cigar-box fiddle, for
instance, you would not go EADG, would you?)
Frank also doesn't retune his banjo much, and uses A' D A C# E for the D
tunes and the "A-modal" stuff, too. David O'Dell, who's learned more of
Frank's music than anyone, plays the banjo this way on the Frank and Dave
CD and tape "Reflections of the Past."
Want to get a FREE newsletter of West Virginia traditional music? Just
send me you postal address and you're in!\
D Williams
Jack Link
ble...@morse.cns.vt.edu (Bill Blevins) wrote:
>>>Jack Link <jack...@olympus.net> wrote:
>>>>BTW, thanks to Bill Richardson for putting things in perspective. If
>>>>they play in cross-key in your region, fine, but it's regional. To
>>>>make blanket pronunciamentos to the effect that cross-key is The
>>>>Oltime Way just bespeaks a lack of broad experience.
>Yes but may I fuel this debate with "if you DON'T play in cross tuning,
>then you are NOT an old-time fiddler".
>Pick up on that, Jack!
>BB
Style:
Seems to meet the criteria for flame bait. Wait and see if you get
any bites.
Content:
Suit yourself. Did you present it as a fact or an opinion?
jaxn