What was Ravel thinking?
Richard Schultz
couple of places in "La Valse" where a flute has a run in triplets (I
don't have the score with me, but I can give exact references if need be),
and the score is marked "tremolo." It is not notated (nor, IIRC, is it
played) as fluttertongue. The analogous passage in the clarinet part does
*not* have a "tremolo" indication. What exactly is it that Ravel expects
the flutist to do?
TIA. . .
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
-- From the New York Daily Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler
Steve Latham
"Richard Schultz" <sch...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
news:eue17r$5rq$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
>I don't mean that figuratively -- I mean it literally. There are a
> couple of places in "La Valse" where a flute has a run in triplets (I
> don't have the score with me, but I can give exact references if need be),
> and the score is marked "tremolo." It is not notated (nor, IIRC, is it
> played) as fluttertongue. The analogous passage in the clarinet part does
> *not* have a "tremolo" indication. What exactly is it that Ravel expects
> the flutist to do?
>
Out of curiosity, could it have been the editor, and not Ravel who did this?
Steve
Richard Schultz
: "Richard Schultz" <sch...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
: news:eue17r$5rq$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
Why would the editor have done such a thing -- twice?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .
Dan McGarvey
> couple of places in "La Valse" where a flute has a run in triplets (I
> don't have the score with me, but I can give exact references if need be),
> and the score is marked "tremolo." It is not notated (nor, IIRC, is it
> played) as fluttertongue. The analogous passage in the clarinet part does
> *not* have a "tremolo" indication. What exactly is it that Ravel expects
> the flutist to do?
Drink. Heavily.
I suppose my first question is, with keyed and valved wind instruments,
isn't 'tremolo' more indicative of a rapid alternation between two pitches
rather than the default string interpretation of repeating a single pitch
rapidly? Generally a fluttertongue is marked using fltz. or a similar
explicit marking for that articulation. That's my understanding, anyhow.
And I don't know if that type of 'tremolo' applies to the passage; based on
your description, I suspect it does not.
I don't have this score, but I'd like to see this example myself. Would you
be able to provide a link to an image of this section?
I suppose my next course of action would be to either secure a recording or
ask a flute player or conductor about the marking.
Dan
Lee Actor
> couple of places in "La Valse" where a flute has a run in triplets (I
> don't have the score with me, but I can give exact references if need be),
> and the score is marked "tremolo." It is not notated (nor, IIRC, is it
> played) as fluttertongue. The analogous passage in the clarinet part does
> *not* have a "tremolo" indication. What exactly is it that Ravel expects
> the flutist to do?
>
> TIA. . .
I just went through my whole score of the piece (1921 Durand edition) and
didn't find what you describe. Can you give an exact reference? Something
doesn't sound right, as the only reasonable interpretation of the passage as
you describe it is fluttertongue, which Ravel would have written as two or
three tremolo slashes through the stem.
--
Lee Actor
Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic
http://www.leeactor.com
Afoklala
> "Richard Schultz" <sch...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
> news:eue17r$5rq$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
>>I don't mean that figuratively -- I mean it literally. There are a
>> couple of places in "La Valse" where a flute has a run in triplets (I
>> don't have the score with me, but I can give exact references if need be),
>> and the score is marked "tremolo." It is not notated (nor, IIRC, is it
>> played) as fluttertongue. The analogous passage in the clarinet part does
>> *not* have a "tremolo" indication. What exactly is it that Ravel expects
>> the flutist to do?
>
> Drink. Heavily.
>
> I suppose my first question is, with keyed and valved wind instruments,
> isn't 'tremolo' more indicative of a rapid alternation between two pitches
> rather than the default string interpretation of repeating a single pitch
> rapidly?
Correct. A tremolo on a wind instrument is a rapid alternation of two
notes.
--
Jan Willem from Odijk, Netherlands
Listen to my music on http://www.xs4all.nl/~dormoljw/gbcomponist.html
e-mail in From-field is wrong, real e-mail is:
jw point van point dormolen on xs4all point nl
(change point into dot, on into at)
And then there's this:
Verbs HAS to agree with their subjects.
Pete G.
news:1mas9ojmmzrgh.172vhqqtkcb56$.dlg@40tude.net...
> Op Thu, 29 Mar 2007 00:43:50 -0600 schreef Dan McGarvey:
>
>> "Richard Schultz" <sch...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
>> news:eue17r$5rq$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
>>>I don't mean that figuratively -- I mean it literally. There are a
>>> couple of places in "La Valse" where a flute has a run in triplets (I
>>> don't have the score with me, but I can give exact references if need
>>> be),
>>> and the score is marked "tremolo." It is not notated (nor, IIRC, is it
>>> played) as fluttertongue. The analogous passage in the clarinet part
>>> does
>>> *not* have a "tremolo" indication. What exactly is it that Ravel
>>> expects
>>> the flutist to do?
>>
>> Drink. Heavily.
>>
>> I suppose my first question is, with keyed and valved wind instruments,
>> isn't 'tremolo' more indicative of a rapid alternation between two
>> pitches
>> rather than the default string interpretation of repeating a single pitch
>> rapidly?
>
> Correct. A tremolo on a wind instrument is a rapid alternation of two
> notes.
So when Ravel writes 'Tremolo dental' over a passage in his 'Pictures'
orchestration where a flute has dotted quavers with two strikes through the
stems, he expects 'a rapid alternation of two notes', does he?
P.
Afoklala
Probably not. As a professional clarinet and saxophone player, I cannot
imagine anything with 'dental tremolo'. The rest of your description
strongly suggests he was thinking of flatterzunge. Probably: This effect
was relatively new at that time, so it didn't have a standardized name yet.
Nowadays, such an indication would be plain wrong.
--
Jan Willem from Odijk, Netherlands
Listen to my music on http://www.xs4all.nl/~dormoljw/gbcomponist.html
e-mail in From-field is wrong, real e-mail is:
jw point van point dormolen on xs4all point nl
(change point into dot, on into at)
And then there's this:
A translator is a magical device get garbage vanished into dünne Luft.
Pete G.
> news:eue17r$5rq$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
>>I don't mean that figuratively -- I mean it literally. There are a
>> couple of places in "La Valse" where a flute has a run in triplets (I
>> don't have the score with me, but I can give exact references if need
>> be),
e.g. p.8
>> and the score is marked "tremolo." It is not notated (nor, IIRC, is it
>> played) as fluttertongue. The analogous passage in the clarinet part
>> does
>> *not* have a "tremolo" indication. What exactly is it that Ravel expects
>> the flutist to do?
i) It *is* played fluttertongued;
ii) Walter Piston actually quotes this passage as his 'headline' example of
the technique.
P.
Pete G.
>>>
>>> Correct. A tremolo on a wind instrument is a rapid alternation of two
>>> notes.
>>
>> So when Ravel writes 'Tremolo dental' over a passage in his 'Pictures'
>> orchestration where a flute has dotted quavers with two strikes through
>> the
>> stems, he expects 'a rapid alternation of two notes', does he?
>>
> Probably not. As a professional clarinet and saxophone player, I cannot
> imagine anything with 'dental tremolo'. The rest of your description
> strongly suggests he was thinking of flatterzunge. Probably: This effect
> was relatively new at that time, so it didn't have a standardized name
> yet.
> Nowadays, such an indication would be plain wrong.
You are a bullshitter. Fluttertonguing was not a 'relatively new' effect in
1929: Schoenberg had used it is his 'Pelleas und Melisande' as early as
*1903*.
P.
Afoklala
> "Afoklala" <afok...@afoklala.invalid> wrote in message
> news:75pwuj57bdnw$.re1zsk00smxz$.dlg@
>>>>
>>>> Correct. A tremolo on a wind instrument is a rapid alternation of two
>>>> notes.
>>>
>>> So when Ravel writes 'Tremolo dental' over a passage in his 'Pictures'
>>> orchestration where a flute has dotted quavers with two strikes through
>>> the
>>> stems, he expects 'a rapid alternation of two notes', does he?
>>>
>> Probably not. As a professional clarinet and saxophone player, I cannot
>> imagine anything with 'dental tremolo'. The rest of your description
>> strongly suggests he was thinking of flatterzunge. Probably: This effect
>> was relatively new at that time, so it didn't have a standardized name
>> yet.
>> Nowadays, such an indication would be plain wrong.
>
> You are a bullshitter.
Excuse me? No need to be insulting?
> Fluttertonguing was not a 'relatively new' effect in
> 1929: Schoenberg had used it is his 'Pelleas und Melisande' as early as
> *1903*.
Yeah, and Schönberg was soooo popular, EVERYBODY was whistling his tunes,
ESPECIALLY the fluttertongued ones.
In 1929, anything invented in 1903 was relatively new.
--
Jan Willem from Odijk, Netherlands
Listen to my music on http://www.xs4all.nl/~dormoljw/gbcomponist.html
e-mail in From-field is wrong, real e-mail is:
jw point van point dormolen on xs4all point nl
(change point into dot, on into at)
And then there's this:
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
Pete G.
> In 1929, anything invented in 1903 was relatively new.
>
More bullshit...
P.
Richard Schultz
: I just went through my whole score of the piece (1921 Durand edition) and
: didn't find what you describe. Can you give an exact reference? Something
: doesn't sound right, as the only reasonable interpretation of the passage as
: you describe it is fluttertongue, which Ravel would have written as two or
: three tremolo slashes through the stem.
In the 1921 Durand edition (I assume you have the Dover reprint), the
"tremolo" indication appears in three places that I could see: in
the third flute at the pickup to 4 bars before rehearsal mark 7; in the
first and second flutes (alternating) at rehearsal mark 32; and in the first
flute at the pickup to the third bar after rehearsal mark 58.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
Richard Schultz
:>> What exactly is it that Ravel expects the flutist to do?
: i) It *is* played fluttertongued;
: ii) Walter Piston actually quotes this passage as his 'headline' example of
: the technique.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
-- Wanda Landowska
Lee Actor
> and
> : didn't find what you describe. Can you give an exact reference?
> Something
> : doesn't sound right, as the only reasonable interpretation of the
> passage as
> : you describe it is fluttertongue, which Ravel would have written as two
> or
> : three tremolo slashes through the stem.
>
> In the 1921 Durand edition (I assume you have the Dover reprint), the
> "tremolo" indication appears in three places that I could see: in
> the third flute at the pickup to 4 bars before rehearsal mark 7; in the
> first and second flutes (alternating) at rehearsal mark 32; and in the
> first
> flute at the pickup to the third bar after rehearsal mark 58.
>
Sorry, my aging eyes are obviously failing me. Yes, those passages are
unquestionably played fluttertongue. The reason similar passages in the
clarinet and oboe are not marked the same is that fluttertongue is much less
effective on those instruments (esp. oboe) than on the flute. Ravel's
notation of this with just the word "tremolo" is curious and certainly not
standard.
BTW, I have the original Durand edition of the score, not the Dover reprint.
But I think they're identical.
Richard Schultz
: Sorry, my aging eyes are obviously failing me. Yes, those passages are
: unquestionably played fluttertongue. The reason similar passages in the
: clarinet and oboe are not marked the same is that fluttertongue is much less
: effective on those instruments (esp. oboe) than on the flute. Ravel's
: notation of this with just the word "tremolo" is curious and certainly not
: standard.
My initial guess had been that the "tremolo" was supposed to be
fluttertongue, but I don't remember having heard it played that way, and I
had assumed that even in Ravel's day, fluttertongue would have been notated
similarly to the way it is generally notated nowadays.
: BTW, I have the original Durand edition of the score, not the Dover reprint.
: But I think they're identical.
In my experience, Dover reprints are exactly that -- literal reprints of
the original source material. Thus, their accuracy will depend on that of
the original that they used.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
Samuel Vriezen
You know, there are also polite ways of expressing disagreement.
--
samuel
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sqv/ - homepage, soundclips
http://blogger.xs4all.nl/sqv - weblog in Dutch
Nobody out there but us. And I can never figure out who that was or will be,
much less is.
- Charles Bernstein
Steve Latham
> In article <kDCOh.56024$un.7063@trnddc03>, Steve Latham
> <lla...@verizon.net> wrote:
> : "Richard Schultz" <sch...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
> : news:eue17r$5rq$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
>
> :>I don't mean that figuratively -- I mean it literally. There are a
> :> couple of places in "La Valse" where a flute has a run in triplets (I
> :> don't have the score with me, but I can give exact references if need
> be),
> :> and the score is marked "tremolo." It is not notated (nor, IIRC, is it
> :> played) as fluttertongue. The analogous passage in the clarinet part
> does
> :> *not* have a "tremolo" indication. What exactly is it that Ravel
> expects
> :> the flutist to do?
>
> : Out of curiosity, could it have been the editor, and not Ravel who did
> this?
>
> Why would the editor have done such a thing -- twice?
>
>
Steve
Steve Latham
"Lee Actor" <lee....@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:9_adnWZuHbEt8Zbb...@comcast.com...
>
> "Richard Schultz" <sch...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
> news:eue17r$5rq$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
>>I don't mean that figuratively -- I mean it literally. There are a
>> couple of places in "La Valse" where a flute has a run in triplets (I
>> don't have the score with me, but I can give exact references if need
>> be),
>> and the score is marked "tremolo." It is not notated (nor, IIRC, is it
>> played) as fluttertongue. The analogous passage in the clarinet part
>> does
>> *not* have a "tremolo" indication. What exactly is it that Ravel expects
>> the flutist to do?
>>
>> TIA. . .
>
> I just went through my whole score of the piece (1921 Durand edition) and
> didn't find what you describe. Can you give an exact reference?
> Something doesn't sound right, as the only reasonable interpretation of
> the passage as you describe it is fluttertongue, which Ravel would have
> written as two or three tremolo slashes through the stem.
>
See..., editor :-)
Steve
Steve Latham
>> : I just went through my whole score of the piece (1921 Durand edition)
>> and
>> : didn't find what you describe. Can you give an exact reference?
>> Something
>> : doesn't sound right, as the only reasonable interpretation of the
>> passage as
>> : you describe it is fluttertongue, which Ravel would have written as two
>> or
>> : three tremolo slashes through the stem.
>>
>> In the 1921 Durand edition (I assume you have the Dover reprint), the
>> "tremolo" indication appears in three places that I could see: in
>> the third flute at the pickup to 4 bars before rehearsal mark 7; in the
>> first and second flutes (alternating) at rehearsal mark 32; and in the
>> first
>> flute at the pickup to the third bar after rehearsal mark 58.
>>
>
> Sorry, my aging eyes are obviously failing me. Yes, those passages are
> unquestionably played fluttertongue. The reason similar passages in the
> clarinet and oboe are not marked the same is that fluttertongue is much
> less effective on those instruments (esp. oboe) than on the flute.
> Ravel's notation of this with just the word "tremolo" is curious and
> certainly not standard.
Darn not the editor :-)
Steve