Recording piano / how to?
Derek Wong
A composition of mine will be performed live in a concert. It is a 20th
century style solo piano piece. The small rectangular hall seats about 70.
I imagine that with a DAT machine, a mic or two,and some careful planning,
I should be able to get an excellent recording of the performance. The
piece has a lot of extremely fast playing. Clarity is very important.
Can anyone help make my imagination come true?
Some questions to consider:
What kind of mic? Where to put them?
Any special care on setting the recording level?
Should the piano lid be taken off? What is the difference?
Many thanks.
Derek Wong (Vancouver, Canada)
der...@wimsey.com
Chandler McDowell
> Some questions to consider:
> Many thanks.
I would suggest that you use a pair of figure of eight ribbon mics
placed where you would sit to listen. The mics can be raised somewhat
to lessen audience noise. The piano lid should be in the full upright
position. The sound changes with lid position and pianists have told me
that it is harder to play with the lid in the lower position or off.
Consider that the most important factor is the performer.
Ribbon mics have pretty low sensitivity so a good mic amp will
be needed to give good SNR. It is also important that a good A/D be
used. Bits may be bits but they ain't bits till you sample the waveform
right. Before the performance have the pianist play the loudest section
of music planned for that performance. Check the levels on your dat
recorder and make sure that peaks are near but do not exceed the maximum
level. This will ensure that the quite parts will get their due.
What I would suggest NOT doing is ripping the lid off the piano
and shoving a multitude of mics down its throat. This will give you
the muddled recording you do not want. I've listed to recordings made
in this way and the way proposed above and there is a world of difference.
If you make the recording in the way I have suggested I would
like to hear it, considering that, with atleast the music I have, the
recordings are usually disappointing.
-chandler
chan...@alumni.caltech.edu
Spatario
der...@wimsey.com writes:
In article <derekw-0504...@pme04.bby.wis.net> Derek Wong,>... Clarity is very important.
I am a physicist (so I know what I am talking about), and I have done
some recording. If clarity is important, you need first of all
some sound-absorbing material in the room, such as thick curtains or
sofas. Also, experiment with the openings of the room (doors and windows).
When you are alone in the room, clap your hands and listen to the
reverberation. Find which setting of the openings gives you the least
reverberation.
If you have the lid down, you will lose the high frequencies and clarity
may suffer. I think that you must raise it a little, at least, for the
mikes to see directly the soundboard. If the room is too reverberant,
get the mikes close to the piano. Make sure the thump of the keys and
pedals does not reach the mikes through the stands. I would use two mikes
only, placed like in a binaural recording, because other configurations
may reduce clarity.
George Kahrimanis ge...@physics.utecxas.edu
Spatario
chan...@avarice.ugcs.caltech.edu writes:
...
>Consider that the most important factor is the performer.
...
> What I would suggest NOT doing is ripping the lid off the piano
>and shoving a multitude of mics down its throat. This will give you
>the muddled recording you do not want.
I fully concur. Thumpsing and booming can be picked by mikes placed too
inside the piano. This is an effect of the way sound radiates from its
source.
On the other hand, the advice to place the mike where you like to sit is
a little too unspecific, I think. If you want the most clarity, you must
place the mikes near the piano, so as to couple to the room acoustics
as little as possible. Just not inside the piano or right on top of it.
I am not an expert on the differences of kinds of mikes, but
I have seen good and bad mikes of all kinds, really. If you have
the otion to choose, get the one with the driest response.
Here is a restatement: in my earler posting I said "I know what I am
talking about", but I meant to say "I believe I know...". Not that I
find a real diffrence between the two expressions, but the first one
makes you enemies in this culture.
- George Kahrimanis, ge...@utaphy.ph.utexas.edu
Phil Heaven
>piece has a lot of extremely fast playing. Clarity is very important.
>
Jack Renner of TELARC has won Grammies for best engineering on a classical
album. His prefered piano micing technique (as of 1992) was a pair of B&K 4006
omni microphones in a spaced omni configuration, approx. 10 ft. away from
piano and approx. 6 ft. high, space 3 ft. apart. angled down at the same angle as
the piano lid on full stick - aimed at center of piano strings. He (and I) also
prefered the black nose cones for the 4006, which gave a little more high freq,
clarity.
B&K 4006 mics are expensive. However, any good mic would work here.
Modifications: Too much hall/reverb = move mics closer to piano and/or try a
hyper-cardiod or cardiod mic. Too much low end = lower mics (closer to upper
range of instrument
DISCLAIMER: These distances are from memory, every recording situation is
different, this description is my interpretation of Jack Renner's lectures on
recording technique, and may differ from his actual practice.
Other Suggestions: Always have piano at full stick in solo performance
situations. Almost always have paino at full stick in recording situations.
Phil Heaven 1-800-93-PEACE
Soundings of the Planet "Peace Through Music"
Dave Liquorice
hea...@pacificrim.net "Phil Heaven" writes:
> Jack Renner of TELARC has won Grammies for best engineering on a
> classical album. His prefered piano micing technique (as of 1992) was a
> pair of B&K 4006 omni microphones in a spaced omni configuration,
> approx. 10 ft. away from piano and approx. 6 ft. high, space 3 ft.
> apart. angled down at the same angle as the piano lid on full stick -
> aimed at center of piano strings.
How do you aim an omni?
As a piano mic technique I'd go along with it. A handy tip when you have
to mic a stange acoustic instrument is watch it being played and then
place the mics between the instrument and the normal position of the
audience. It'll produce a good starting point if nothing else. Notice
how most of the techniques described here are small varyations on this,
--
Dave Liquorice MIBS alls...@nexus.demon.co.uk
Broadcast Sound Engineer GTPN 050/039 +44 117 974 4579
Bristol, England, UK. "It's allright leaving me."
---
som...@sunydutchess.edu
>How to record piano live in a small hall?
>A composition of mine will be performed live in a concert. It is a 20th
>century style solo piano piece. The small rectangular hall seats about 70.
>I imagine that with a DAT machine, a mic or two,and some careful planning,
>I should be able to get an excellent recording of the performance. The
>piece has a lot of extremely fast playing. Clarity is very important.
>Can anyone help make my imagination come true?
>Some questions to consider:
>What kind of mic? Where to put them?
>Any special care on setting the recording level?
>Should the piano lid be taken off? What is the difference?
Derek,
I expect you'll get lots of conflicting opinions on this post, but I have
quite a bit of experience in piano recording, teach recording, and also am a
composer, so I'll give you my opinions. Feel free to compare them with
others.
Each recording situation is a bit different. The hall, the piano
(especially the way it is voiced) and the kind of mics all make a big
difference. So this is a little like trying to prescribe medicine over the
telephone.
Maintaining clarity in the rapid passages will demand a mic which can
respond very quickly to sudden and frequent changes of sound pressure. I
recommend the use of small capsule condenser (capacitor) mics. I tend
personally to favor Bruel & Kjaer for absolute clarity, but other very high
end mics will work well, too (Schoeps, Neumann, AKG, etc.). Since I gather
you will be renting mics (I doubt you plan to buy a pair of high end mics
for one concert), you may be limited by what you can find (depending upon
what city you are in -- if the concert is in NYC give me a call).
If the hall is rectangular and only seats seventy, it sound like it is small
enough that the hall coloration is apt to be an unpleasant ring rather than
warm and full reverberation. Nimbus records makes piano recordings in a
small ballroom in some mansion in England, using a Calrec mic, and the
results are truly awful to my ears (though most non-piano recordings on the
Nimbus label have truly excellent sound, especially the recordings of the
English Chamber Orchestra). They make the mistake of recording in too small
a room and placing the mics too far from the piano. From what you say about
the nature of your work, I think you want to avoid this kind of sound.
I recommend two omnidirectional mics about six feet from the piano and about
2 1/2 feet from each other, facing the open lid of the piano. (You may have
to experiment to get the optimum mic to piano distance, but I wouldn't
place the mics closer than 3 feet from the piano or farther than 9 feet.
Too close gives a percussive "pop" music sound and too far, especially for
omnis, will cut down on the clarity you seek.) I do not recommend taking off
the lid of the piano. Before someone jumps all over me about the evils of
spaced omnis relative to "reality," (though many major label piano
recordings are made just as I have described), let me add that one can
improve the stereo localization considerably by the use of a Jecklin disk (a
small foam barrier between two omnis spaced only about 6 1/2 inches apart).
For a good description of the Jecklin disk, I recommend you buy Bruce
Barlett's very good low-cost paperback book, "Stereo Microphone Techniques"
and read pages 63-64. You would learn much about good recording techniques
by reading the entire book. I also recommend Michael Dickreiter's "
Tonmeister Technology" but that is usually a much harder book to find at
general bookstores. I have seen the Bartlett even at chain stores such as
Barnes and Noble. I have used both (and the other Bartlett books, too, in
courses I have taught).
There is much to be said from the use of coincident stereo mics, especially
a "one-point" X-Y (cardiod mics crossed at about 90 degrees with the
capsules just above each other) or M-S mic (see Bartlett 67-72 for this
technique as it requires a special decoding matrix). Although I have not
used M-S very much, my experience with X-Y and a variety of cardiod mics (
AKGs, Neumanns, Schoeps) is that it can produce too bright ("tinny") a sound
if the piano is voiced quite brightly (which many modern Steinways are and
which many young pianists like). This can be improved some by careful
choice of a mic pre-amp (Jensen is a good choice), but again you will
probably be limited to what you can rent.
If you cannot hand select your mics and your mic preamps, I truly feel that
you will be most happy with the use of spaced omnidirectional mics as I have
described above. They won't necessarily produce great stereo imaging (
ability to place where each sound source is in the stereo field), but I
think you will find the sound very good and, if good mics are used, each
note should be clear. And imaging isn't really an issue for a solo piano.
If you want to hear a commercial recording made with two spaced B&K mics and
a Jensen preamp I recommend the Liszt Sonata in B-minor with Emanuel Ax (
Sony Classical SK 48484). It was engineered by Bud Graham and the sound is
truly incredible. In my opinion this represents piano recording at its
best. On the other hand, there are many opinions in this industry and others
will probably jump in with different, but also valid, viewpoints. It should
also be noted that I expect Sony Classical hand picks each piece of
equipment carefully (inluding A-D convertors) and doesn't just use a run-of-
the-mill DAT deck for mastering.
As for levels, have the performer play the loudest passage then set the DAT
machine so that this level doesn't EVER "pin" the highest mark on the DATs
peak meter. In fact, I would make sure that it is *at least* -6 or more
from the top end since many performers play louder when they are nervous
during a performance. Be sure than any error in setting level is toward the
low, not the high, end since DAT's can be overdriven easily. Their signal
to noise ratio is large enough that you could set it quite a bit lower than
optimum level and still have a very listenable recording. This is just the
opposite approach usually taken in analog recording, where many engineers
allow the highest peaks to "hit the red" in order to insure a good level,
and thus low noise (low tape hiss) for the quiet passages.
Finally, if you are going to save the recording for posterity, have a good
15 ips open reel analog copy made from the DAT and store it tails out. DAT
tapes don't necessarily have the greatest longevity.
I hope this helps. Send me E-Mail if you have more questions.
Stephen C. Crampton
In other words, if the hall is not too big, regardless of how you mike the
piano, I would keep the levels low. Let the piano's natural sound carry as
well as it will, and support it as necessary with the audio system.
No audio system will sound as good as the real thing.
Stephen C. Crampton
of Cambridge, MA
Len Moskowitz
Derek Wong <der...@wimsey.com> wrote:
>How to record piano live in a small hall?
Find a seat where the sound is good. Put on a set of binaural
microphones and press "record." Play it back over a good set of
headphones. Without any exaggeration, it will be among the most
realistic recordings you have ever heard.
>Some questions to consider:
>
>What kind of mic? Where to put them?
A pair of binaurals. They're avaliable from us, Sennheiser, some folks
over in Germany, and a few others.
>Any special care on setting the recording level?
Yes. Use a DAT machine (e.g., Sony TCD-D7) and get as close to the 0 dB
level as you can without exceeding it. Make sure you are not
overloading your microphone pre-amp.
>Should the piano lid be taken off? What is the difference?
If you like the sound with it off, take it off. If you like it on,
leave it on. What you hear is what you'll record.
Information about our microphones provided on request.
--
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
mosk...@panix.com
Diane Reid
Specifically, I need some advice about recording a choir in a church.
My church choir wants to have a better recording system for their
music. Right now, the only recording that is done, is using the
standard, directional mics on the pulpet and lecturn - needless to
say, the recording quality is poor.
We rented equipment a few years ago - mics, soundboard/mixer - to
tape a special service. The equipment was placed in the balcony
at the back of the church, and the recording was very good. However,
the man who looks after the recording of the Sunday service does
not want to alter his system, nor does he want to look after more
equipment (the joys of volunteer organizations!). The audio
system we have is basically a good quality home system of amplifier
and cassettte recorder, with 2 stand microphones and up to 2
chordless mics. The church is set up with a 'loop' system as well
for the hearing impaired.
The choir does not have much money to spend on expensive equipment,
nor is there much money in the general church budget. However, I'm
hoping that someone will have some suggestions.
Thanks!
P Stamler
splayed outwards at an angle of 110 degrees, with the heads 7" apart.
Mount the whole array on a stand, or hang it from the ceiling using
monofilament fishing line, so that the mikes point to the outermost points
of the choir. (usually 10-20' away, depending on the size of the choir).
Run the mikes straight into the mike inputs of a decent cassette machine
(using professional-type mike cables, with an XLR connector, female, on
the mike end and a 1/4" plug on the other end), or run them through a good
mixer (XLRs on both ends of the cable), using the pan controls to set the
mikes full left and full right. This technique, known as "ORTF" recording,
produces the most natural and spacious sound on a choir of any technique I
know.
Write if you have further questions.
Paul Stamler
e-mail: Psta...@aol.com
Phil Heaven
>In article <3m6kni$6...@baja.pacificrim.net>
> hea...@pacificrim.net "Phil Heaven" writes:
>
>> apart. angled down at the same angle as the piano lid on full stick -
>> aimed at center of piano strings.
>
>How do you aim an omni?
>
The B&K 4006 has an optional cone shaped grill that gives it moderate
directionality in the upper frequencies. That is what we were aiming
Simon Gray
writes:
| >Any special care on setting the recording level?
|
| Yes. Use a DAT machine (e.g., Sony TCD-D7) and get as close to the 0 dB
| level as you can without exceeding it. Make sure you are not
| overloading your microphone pre-amp.
|
I've always been under the impression that Sony recommended recording to -20dB with
DAT...
--
Simon Gray, Musician, in Birmingham, England, European Union.
si...@mahayana.demon.co.uk | GMU u**$ 5+++ t+@ d? H+ s-:-- !p+ h- |
Maturity is realising the | !au a- w++ !v C++ N++ K !W(+) M-- Y+ D f |
volume knob also turns left | -po+ tv+ b- e+++ f r--->+++ !n !y+ g+(-) |
Whitney Potter
In the under $2,000 dollar range, I've gotten very good recordings with
a pair of Shure SM-81's. If I could afford B&K's I'd probably just hire a
chamber ensemble to play for me when ever I was in the mood.
I've also heard some good stuff done with a Crown SASS.
As for the binaural recording suggestion, Neumann makes a great
"head". Unfortunately its in the European sports car price range and the
recordings only sound good when played back on cans.
One further suggestion, tape the rehearsal. If at all possible tape
the performer on the actual instrument in the actual hall. Take careful
notes on your set up and then listen very carefully to the recording. You
may only get one shot at a truly great performance, so why not do a trial
run to work the kinks out before hand. Just remember that the audience
will almost certainly have a noticable acoustic effect.
--
We now return to your regularly scheduled programming
Dave Liquorice
hea...@pacificrim.net "Phil Heaven" writes:
>>> apart. angled down at the same angle as the piano lid on full stick -
>>> aimed at center of piano strings.
>>
>> How do you aim an omni?
>>
>
> The B&K 4006 has an optional cone shaped grill that gives it moderate
> directionality in the upper frequencies. That is what we were aiming
But then it's not a omni anymore is it? B-)
Scott Dorsey
>In article <3mf3f0$a...@baja.pacificrim.net>
> hea...@pacificrim.net "Phil Heaven" writes:
>
>>>> apart. angled down at the same angle as the piano lid on full stick -
>>>> aimed at center of piano strings.
>>>
>>> How do you aim an omni?
>>>
>>
>> The B&K 4006 has an optional cone shaped grill that gives it moderate
>> directionality in the upper frequencies. That is what we were aiming
>
>But then it's not a omni anymore is it? B-)
No omni mikes are _really_ omni at higher frequencies.
What what's more, at low frequencies, cardioid mikes aren't cardioid either.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Dave Liquorice
>>>>> apart. angled down at the same angle as the piano lid on full stick -
>>>>> aimed at center of piano strings.
>>>>
>>>> How do you aim an omni?
>>>
>>> The B&K 4006 has an optional cone shaped grill that gives it moderate
>>> directionality in the upper frequencies. That is what we were aiming
>>
>> But then it's not a omni anymore is it? B-)
>
> No omni mikes are _really_ omni at higher frequencies. What what's more,
> at low frequencies, cardioid mikes aren't cardioid either.
Uh Oh, missed smiley alert. B-)
Tr...@nashville.net
> I am looking for help and suggestions about recording choral music.
> Specifically, I need some advice about recording a choir in a church.
Hi Diane,
I'm a producer as well as a writer/performer of Christian Music.
Alot of choral sessions get done here in my studio, and I've recorded alot
of choirs live. I understand your concerns. Here are some real
must-have's (in my opinion):
************Mackie 1202************ ($225) (or 1604 $725) Mixer- these
have decent pre-amps, good quality, and alot of features for the$$
At least a couple of ***real condenser mic's (not Shure 57's hung from the
ceiling!) You need mic's that are designed to pick sound up FROM A
DISTANCE, if they're not going to be right on people's mouths.
After that, a *peak limiter (Behringer Composer) would sometimes be handy,
but not always needed.
A *reverb unit such as the Lexicon LXP-1 ($325) or the Alesis Midiverb II
($125 used) would be nice, but even better is to get your reverb from the
room.
Last, you need a ********DAT machine (perhaps a Sony DatMan $550), or a
DA-30 (used $800?) or maybe just a decent consumer dat like the SOny
DTC-600 ($400 used). This is important, because You need something good
to record the final product on.
So, your budget to set up a quality recording situation can probably be as
low as $650 to $1400, or as high as heaven (almost...)
Please let me know if I can be of any further help.
Sincerely,
Troy
________________________________________________
Troy Nilson
CHECK OUT MY WEB PAGE AT: http://www.nashville.net/~troyn
or jump right to the *CREATIVE MEDIA PAGE* (with cool pictures of the studio):
http://www.nashville.net/~troyn/creativemedia.html
Paul Kraus
a Denon DTR-80P for 2 years now with excellent luck in
recording the local choral group (Troy (NY) Musical
Arts). I like the ambiance I get with the VP-88,
you can hear the hang time in the hall (an old
Baptist church). the imaging is wonderful and as a
bonus, the rear channels (L-R) are there for
surround sound decoding.
The VP-88 goes for $600-$900 (I am convinced
the phase of the moon has something to do with
its price;).
The Denon DTR-80P is long discontinued (sp?). I do
not have experience with any other portable DAT, but
portable DAT is definately the way to go.
PS don't forget good cables. I use a 100' length of
Canare Star Quad wired for stereo.
Paul Kraus
Diane Reid
Do you mount the Mics on stands? (how high? how far from the choir?)
Hang them from the ceiling? (how far from the choir? how high?)
What kind of reverberation does the church have?
Paul Kraus
>Do you mount the Mics on stands? (how high? how far from the choir?)
>Hang them from the ceiling? (how far from the choir? how high?)
The hall does not have "boxes" so I just put the mic on a stand,
a tall stand (but the chorus is on 24" risers). I try to get
the mic about 6.5 - 7 feet up. The chorus is arranged in a
hemi-circle, with piano and choral director in the front.
I put the mic about 4-5 feet behind the choral director.
(see diagram below)
>What kind of reverberation does the church have?
How would you like it quantified ??
The room has hard plaster walls and about 30% glass coverage
on the side walls. The ceiling is about 40' up, with a large
cut-out in the center which breaks it up. I would guess Rt60 times
in the 2-3 second range. The overall dimensions of the room are
about 60' wide by 80' deep.
The reverb is not harsh (peaky) but smooth in response, and
there is not a particular frequency that hangs longer than the
rest, so a very even decay.
I hope this answered your questions.
Paul Kraus (p...@aule-tek.com)