fake Haydn sonatas
John Saylor
Haydn sonatas, recently found in an attic. I put forth the
proposistion that we spend too much time on music of the past when we
have such a lively musical culture in the present. This stance was
attacked by members of r.m.classical [what did I expect?].
Well, even though the attribution to Haydn has been upheld by some,
most think it was a hoax. It seems the immense popularity of Haydn's
music [not a horrible thing] and the general nostalgia for historical
music [a somewhat bad thing in my opinion] made the classical music
public all too willing to be schnookered by an "intellectual joke"
[from National Public Radio].
Ha ha!
jsaylor
Matthew H. Fields
John Saylor <jsa...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU> wrote:
>music [a somewhat bad thing in my opinion] made the classical music
>public all too willing to be schnookered by an "intellectual joke"
>[from National Public Radio].
I started the thread with
an article by Allan Kozinn
for the New York Times
from early December 1993.
The referrees mentioned in the article are
Eva and Paul Badura-Skoda and H.C. Robbins Landon
at Harvard, and
James Webster at Cornell.
Noam Elkies
>I started the thread with an article by Allan Kozinn for the New York Times
>Eva and Paul Badura-Skoda and H.C. Robbins Landon
>at Harvard, and James Webster at Cornell.
??? Neither of the Badura-Skodas, nor Landon, is on our music faculty;
the only Harvard scholar quoted in those articles is Christoph wolff.
The other Harvard connection is that the symposium and premiere
(both now cancelled according to the more recent NYTimes article)
were to have taken place here.
--Noam D. Elkies (elk...@zariski.harvard.edu)
Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University
eyo...@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
>Recently in these quarters there was a lively discussion of the "lost"
>Haydn sonatas, recently found in an attic. I put forth the
>proposistion that we spend too much time on music of the past when we
>have such a lively musical culture in the present. This stance was
>attacked by members of r.m.classical [what did I expect?].
John, I just got back from vacation and there has been a lot of e.m.r.
through the lines since then which I missed. I was one who responded to
your thoughts and I assure you nothing as violent as an "attack" was
intended. But.
But:) I did (and do) wish to clarify a point about the general public's
positive attitudes towards the "found" sonatas. Some may have an attitude
that, sound unheard, the sonatas must be good music because they are by
Haydn; I commend your blowing the whistle on such an attitude which is
a wholly *un*musical one --- ignoring the sound of the music!
Some may have an attitude that, sound unheard, the sonatas are *important*
to pay attention to because they are by a producer of great music, Haydn.
This is an attitude I agree with. After paying some attention to these
works (i.e. listening to them and playing them) we can decide if they are
good music, but even if they are bad they remain important because they are
remnants of the musical life of two-hundred years ago, and of Haydn's musical
life. No more, no less.
Now suppose, as is the current thought, the sonatas are blatant forgeries.
Suppose they date from the tumultous cultural period of the 1970's in
California. Then they are of interest still! They are remnants of the
musical life of twenty years ago --- not of Haydn but of Haydn's influence
on Western musical mores and growth. They are sonatas which fooled H.C.
Robbins Landon and Paul Badura Skoda *musically*. For that alone they
deserve some recognition as noteworthy, if bad, pieces of music.
And your legitimate beef --- why is Paul Badura Skoda spending time
practicing stylistic throwbacks rather than recording something by Mark
Gresham? --- should thus not be directed at all who express enthusiastic
interest in the found sonatas, but only those who express enthusiastic
praise of the sonatas before hearing them. The latter group does not,
I think, include many r.m.c. posters. It does not even include Paul
Badura Skoda! We all have our likes which have nothing to do with what
we think we *ought* to like.
Peace,
Ed Young
P.S. Anyone suggest a motive for forging Haydn sonatas?
Thomas Ford Brown
In article <1994Jan4....@news.cs.brandeis.edu> eyo...@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>
>P.S. Anyone suggest a motive for forging Haydn sonatas?
Ego gratification? Monetary reward?
Stevan Apter
Revenge on the musicological community, which for so many years has
rewarded non-entities, while ignoring *MY GREAT ACHIEVEMENT*. At
last, to reveal them for the frauds they are ... (*skritch* *skritch*
*skritch*)
>
Robin Fairbairns
Whatever, the guy who did it appears to have been working up to it for
some years, faking all and sundry (even inventing a new composer whose
name was a near anagram of a known one).
Perhaps the present furore will persuade him to stick to teaching
recorder in the future!
--
Robin (Campaign for Real Radio 3) Fairbairns r...@cl.cam.ac.uk
U of Cambridge Computer Lab, Pembroke St, Cambridge CB2 3QG, UK
Diarmuid Pigott
[stuff deleted]
: public all too willing to be schnookered by an "intellectual joke"
: [from National Public Radio].
: Ha ha!
: jsaylor
As an erstwhile modern composer, I am all for modern compositions. But
in the recent literary history of Australia, we have a case where the
reverse stunt was played. "Angry Penguins" was a literary magazine of
international standing, in the forefront of modernism. (The title
referred to inebriated artists in dinner jackets, and their way of
trying to epater les bourgeouis when drunk).
Some excellent modern (but not modernist) poets sent them a sheaf of
"undiscovered masterpieces" sent by Melbourne spinster Ethel Malley,
purporting to be the work of her brother Ern Malley. The magazine
(edited by Max Harris and John Reed) devoted an entire issue to this
poet, and the works enclosed met with universal acclaim from modernist
critics.*
Of course it was a hoax, and a cruel one, played on people too ready to
accept the new in art, and think that any incomprehensibilty was the
fault of the perceiver, not the artist. People who embraced the
modernist paradigm suddenly looked stupid when it was revealed.
Ultimately the entire sorry affair reflected badly on everyone.
The question to consider (especially you, John) is how you would feel if
any modern idols publically admitted to total fraud. If Xenakis, or
Cardew or anyone else of a radical approach suddenly said "actually it
was all a load of rubbish that we dreamed up to fool critics".
In Australia, there are still critics and academics who insist that the
hoaxers were propelled by their subconscious to write great art.
Diarmuid Pigott
(erstwhile modern composer, but one equally deligthed by a new quartet
rediscovered in an attic from Lawes, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert,
Brahms, Wolf, Ravel, Bartok, Shostakovich, Villa-Lobos, Milhaud, Martin
Schoenberg, or Scelsi).
* One of the poems was a "free-verse" ee cummings style
type-setting of a health report on a malaria infested swamp in PNG!
John Saylor
Diarmuid Pigott <diar...@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> wrote more stuff than is
left here since I decided to cut some of out:
>The question to consider (especially you, John) is how you would feel if
>any modern idols publically admitted to total fraud. If Xenakis, or
>Cardew or anyone else of a radical approach suddenly said "actually it
>was all a load of rubbish that we dreamed up to fool critics".
Well, I'm not prone to idolizing artists [live or dead], but I do have
my favorites. So let's take Sun Ra. He is surrounded by fabrication
[sorry to say it, I feel like the guy who says "No, Veronica, Santa
Claus is actually a marketing ploy."] and fraud. He claims to be from
Saturn [and ancient Egypt, but let's try to keep it simple]. I don't
care, I think it's funny, and I like his music regardless of the
mythology he created around himself.
Now you may think that is a bad example, because he is kind of "holy
fool," surrounding himself in metaphysical babble to elevate his music
out of the realm of the ordinary.
So what about Cage? I know a woman [masters in musicology] who goes
into conniptions at the mention of Cage's music. She feels like a big
joke is being played on her. Now I have been bored at his concerts,
but I think he is a serious artist. He demands more of the listener
than most, and he works within a larger context than most, but he is a
serious artist [it doesn't mean that I expect everyone to LIKE it].
So, I guess the issue is pomposity, or self-importance, or
perspective. Since I haven't got much to lose now, it's easy for me
to have a moderate viewpoint. If one of my faves turned out to be a
hoax [N.B. the Haydn that we all love (including myself) is not a
hoax, it was the "lost" Haydn that was a hoax (supposedly)] well, I'd
have to chalk it up to experience and go on. I suppose I would try
and remember what I liked about the hoax, since that would still be
valuable to me. But I would probably laugh at myself.
It wouldn't be the first time.
>* One of the poems was a "free-verse" ee cummings style
>type-setting of a health report on a malaria infested swamp in PNG!
X
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Subject: Re: fake
Haydn sonatas Summary:
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References: <2g444h$1h6@
senator-bedfellow
.MIT.EDU> <2ghj8d$3...@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>Sender:
jsaylor [where do I pick up my pulitzer?]
Seth Tisue
I was looking in a classical CD catalog, sort of a European Schwann,
don't remember what it was called, and in it was a long list of
Stockhausen CD's on what I assume is his own private label,
Stockhausen Verlag.
Questions:
1) Are these special-orderable in the U.S. or do you have to
write to Germany?
2) How much do they cost?
3) Are they reissues of the old Nonesuch, Deutsche Grammophon,
--
- Seth Tisue
(ti...@yosemite.eid.anl.gov, ti...@midway.uchicago.edu)
Matthew R Blair
of Stockhausen which contains everything he has ever done remastered for
CD. can anyone verify this?
el perro verde
Stevan Apter
>
>I was looking in a classical CD catalog, sort of a European Schwann,
>don't remember what it was called, and in it was a long list of
>Stockhausen CD's on what I assume is his own private label,
>Stockhausen Verlag.
>
>Questions:
>
> 1) Are these special-orderable in the U.S. or do you have to
> write to Germany?
I've never seen them for sale in the US. Harold Moore's in London
was selling them for a while, but I think they now stock only new
issues.
>
> 2) How much do they cost?
Zillions of Sirian dollars.
>
> 3) Are they reissues of the old Nonesuch, Deutsche Grammophon,
At least some. But one of the recent issues -- a six or seven disk
set of "Monday" from the Licht series -- is new.
Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789
I don't think so. As I understand it, all the old DGG recordings were sold
to Stockhausen, who is now reissuing CDs on his own Stockhausen Verlag label.
I haven't seen them anyplace in the 'States, and the one place I saw them
in Britain (Harold Moores), the prices were ludicrously expensive, but I
caved in and bought *Kurzwellen* anyhow. You can get them direct from
Stockhausen Verlag, if you can work out a way to pay in Deutschmarks (no
credit cards). The CDs are repackaged with KS's 6th-grade artwork gracing
the jewel-box covers. ;=) Also available are scores, new-age posters, signed
photos ;=O etc. An autograph costs more that a CD(!!!), but that's all part of
the fun of being a Stockhausen groupie...
May the stars be with you,
Bill
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bill Harrison -- University of Houston, TX -- CHE...@JETSON.UH.EDU |
| "Only the extreme is interesting" -- Magnus Lindberg |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Seth Tisue
>I don't think so. As I understand it, all the old DGG recordings were sold
>to Stockhausen, who is now reissuing CDs on his own Stockhausen Verlag label.
Has he reissued _Aus den sieben Tagen_ yet <drool>? The old LP's
Seth Tisue
>>I don't think so. As I understand it, all the old DGG recordings were sold
>>to Stockhausen, who is now reissuing CDs on his own Stockhausen Verlag label.
>
>Has he reissued _Aus den sieben Tagen_ yet <drool>? The old LP's
As I was saying...
The old LP's I have tapes of are pretty crackly sounding.
SALLY BOARDMAN
re: the Haydn Sonatas, but I'm using it anyway:
> Diarmuid Pigott
>
> * One of the poems was a "free-verse" ee cummings style
> type-setting of a health report on a malaria infested swamp in PNG!
No reason why this couldn't make a _terrific_ song!! sb
Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789
>>to Stockhausen, who is now reissuing CDs on his own Stockhausen Verlag label.
>
>Has he reissued _Aus den sieben Tagen_ yet <drool>? The old LP's
>--
Not yet. Two episodes _Aus den sieben Tagen_ are available on Harmonia Mundi.
We're also waiting patiently for *Telemusik* and *Hymnen*...
Christopher Barber
jsa...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (John Saylor) writes:
So what about Cage? I know a woman [masters in musicology] who goes
into conniptions at the mention of Cage's music. She feels like a big
joke is being played on her. Now I have been bored at his concerts,
but I think he is a serious artist. He demands more of the listener
than most, and he works within a larger context than most, but he is a
serious artist [it doesn't mean that I expect everyone to LIKE it].
Actually, you are both right. A big joke *is* being played on her,
because that is a major mechanism of many of his works: playing off
of listener expectations. I also think he is a serious artist, but
I think of his work more as "performance art" than as music per se.
For me, Cage is to be *experienced* and not to be listened to.
- Chris
--
Christopher Barber
(cba...@bbn.com)
Richard Friedman
>You can get them direct from
>Stockhausen Verlag, if you can work out a way to pay in Deutschmarks (no
>credit cards). The CDs are repackaged with KS's 6th-grade artwork gracing
>the jewel-box covers. ;=) Also available are scores, new-age posters, signed
>photos ;=O etc. An autograph costs more that a CD(!!!), but that's all part of
>the fun of being a Stockhausen groupie...
I tried to get KS to allow me to broadcast these recordings on KPFA last
year and a frustrating exchange of letters ensued. He wanted to charge
KPFA 25DM/minute to broadcast any of his recordings! We were hoping to
do a 4 hour broadcast! Nothing could change his mind. He would only
allow us to broadcast specific excerpts of some pieces, which he detailed
in a list giving points in the scores. (An amazing document in itself).
Considering the amount of free advertising that such a broadcast would
have represented, I offered to waive what he should be paying us to do this!!
I dont thing he got the point, so we never did the broadcast. If we
could afford to buy the CD's (we were hoping he would send them to us free
like so many other record companies do, e.g Disques Montaigne, New Albion)
we would still broadcast them without his permission, even.
I'm waiting for the Verlag to release the complete Hymnen. Thats worth
buying!
--
/\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/\
\/Richard Friedman (510)528-7055 | rc...@netcom.com \/
/\Applied Parallel Research (Berkeley)| /\
\/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\/
Jonathan E. Quist
The name Fritz Kreisler comes to mind...
--
Jonathan E. Quist j...@lachman.com Lachman Technology, Incorporated
DoD #094, EGFC #002, KotPP, KotCF '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep" Naperville, IL
__ "I love Boris Yeltsin. He's kind of like Ted Baxter's
\/ chubby older brother." - WBEZ (Chicago) personality Aaron Freeman
Stevan Apter
>che...@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789") writes:
>
>>You can get them direct from
>>Stockhausen Verlag, if you can work out a way to pay in Deutschmarks (no
>>credit cards). The CDs are repackaged with KS's 6th-grade artwork gracing
>>the jewel-box covers. ;=) Also available are scores, new-age posters, signed
>>photos ;=O etc. An autograph costs more that a CD(!!!), but that's all part of
>>the fun of being a Stockhausen groupie...
>
>I tried to get KS to allow me to broadcast these recordings on KPFA last
>year and a frustrating exchange of letters ensued. He wanted to charge
>KPFA 25DM/minute to broadcast any of his recordings! We were hoping to
>do a 4 hour broadcast! Nothing could change his mind. He would only
>allow us to broadcast specific excerpts of some pieces, which he detailed
>in a list giving points in the scores. (An amazing document in itself).
>Considering the amount of free advertising that such a broadcast would
>have represented, I offered to waive what he should be paying us to do this!!
>I dont thing he got the point, so we never did the broadcast. If we
>could afford to buy the CD's (we were hoping he would send them to us free
>like so many other record companies do, e.g Disques Montaigne, New Albion)
>we would still broadcast them without his permission, even.
Why not finance the broadcast by auctioning the correspondence?
Bernard McPhail
piano (1936-1938 ?). Very interesting. And I can't say I felt they
suffered because they weren't being *experienced*. In any case, I
actually have a question about these pieces. The CD notes say that
they're not completely notated. Not having seen the score, I'm not
quite sure what this means. In the performance I've heard, there's
definitely a very strong eastern, or more specifically, Japanese,
bent to the pieces. Is this the import of the performer (who is
Japanese) or is it part of the score?
Bernard ------
"Those are only your opinions, you know?" Valerie retorted.
"Hmm..." he thought to himself, "here's someone to be reckoned with".
Vance Maverick
I've just finished listening to his sonatas and interludes for prepared
piano (1936-1938 ?).
Circa 1948, just before he began his work with chance techniques.
In any case, I
actually have a question about these pieces. The CD notes say that
they're not completely notated. Not having seen the score, I'm not
quite sure what this means.
Actually, I think they *are* fully notated -- that is, the score tells
the performer what to do, as far as scores ordinarily can. Perhaps
the author of the notes felt the preparation of the piano introduced
some uncertainty into the sounds?
In the performance I've heard, there's
definitely a very strong eastern, or more specifically, Japanese,
bent to the pieces. Is this the import of the performer (who is
Japanese) or is it part of the score?
Cage had certainly been thinking hard about Eastern music. Can you be
specific about what you're hearing?
In any case, James Pritchett's new book, which I mentioned yesterday,
deals with the _Sonatas and Interludes_ at length, with extracts and
analysis. It also deals, very firmly and very early on, with the
common claims that Cage's work is not to be treated as music, that
Cage's intellectual concerns make it performance art or metamusic --
and unsurprisingly (the title is _The Music of John Cage_) concludes
these claims are bogus. He makes a strong case that, throughout
his career, Cage cared strongly about what his music sounded like, and
pursued its creation with aesthetic goals in mind.
Vance (wishing the book didn't cost $45)
Matthew H. Fields
Bernard McPhail <mcp...@bcarh807.bnr.ca> wrote:
>I've just finished listening to his sonatas and interludes for prepared
>piano (1936-1938 ?). Very interesting. And I can't say I felt they
Back when he was actually composing. Delicious stuff.
>suffered because they weren't being *experienced*. In any case, I
>actually have a question about these pieces. The CD notes say that
>they're not completely notated.
Having seen the score, here's the deal:
Page 1 of the score gives you about 3 or 4 hours worth of preparation,
i.e. spells out in great detail what you should do to alter the sounds of
each note of the piano. (I love this chart, by the way. He uses "16ma"
and "16vba" as if they were "15ma" and "15ma b.")
The rest of the score is written like ordinary piano music, and you must
play exactly the indicated keys, but this score gives no indication of how
the music will actually sound.
Bill Park
Practicing Finale?
--
==============================================================================
"If it sounds good...it is good."
- Duke Ellington
Bill Park (as...@cleveland.freenet.edu)
Vance Maverick
mave...@cork.CS.Berkeley.EDU (that's me) writes,
of James Pritchett's new book _The Music of John Cage_:
> (wishing the book didn't cost $45)
Oops. As Jamie corrects me, it's $39.95 list -- even the full-gouge
bookstore where I browsed it charges $41.95.
Scrupulously,
Vance
Bernard McPhail
|> In article <1994Jan7.1...@bnr.ca> mcp...@bcarh807.bnr.ca (Bernard McPhail) writes:
|>
|> Cage had certainly been thinking hard about Eastern music. Can you be
|> specific about what you're hearing?
|>
koto to me... I really did not expect that. I thought I'd hear
buzzing and rattling sounds. The other impression I had was of
great sobriety and sparsity in the musical material. That again
makes me think of Japanese and some Asian art: a minimum of
means by which to make an impression.
That doesn't really say much though. I'll re-listen to the
pieces tonight or tomorrow night and see if I can be more
specific...
Bernard -------
Casting his opinions aside for the momemt and reflecting back
on some linguistic debates he'd overheard, he pondered whether
he ought not to have been thinking "Here's someone with whom
it is to be reckoned".
Valentine Bob
: In article <2ghj8d$3...@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>,
: Diarmuid Pigott <diar...@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> wrote more stuff than is
: left here since I decided to cut some of out:
: >The question to consider (especially you, John) is how you would feel if
: >any modern idols publically admitted to total fraud. If Xenakis, or
: >Cardew or anyone else of a radical approach suddenly said "actually it
: >was all a load of rubbish that we dreamed up to fool critics".
I'm deleting Johns response but taking advantage of his editing to follow
up on the question at hand.
In the example, does it make any difference to the music itself whether the
artist has said, "this is art" or "this is rubbish?" Of course not, it is
only our perception that changes. If we are told before hand, then we will be
predisposed to discount the art if we are told that it is rubbish. If beforehand,
we are told it is "art", or "great" or "a masterpiece", we may do our best to
"understand" or "appreciate" it. The predisposition will have an influence on
how we relate to the work.
The trick is when we find out after the fact, since now our predispositions are
exposed. In the case of the poetry you noted, or the Haydn sonatas, the "poetic
experience" the readers had, or the "Haydn experience" the listeners had, one should
ask "is that experience any less real after discovering the art was 'a fake', or,
'a forgery'." No, the emotional experience was a fact that happenned.
Take it one step further, lets say that the person who discovered the sonatas, or
revealed the poetrys as "fakes" said, "just kidding, they ARE real." Has the
poetry or Haydn works become any less meaningful as a result of the backpedalling
the musicologists and poetry editors have done since the first revelation? No,
its been the same the whole time.
Art is perception, and part of perception is predisposition and expectation. During
the '60's there was a "conceptual art" movement. A piece I heard of was an artist
who went to a construction site and hung a sign on the fence which said, "between
the hours of 4 and 6 P.M., this construction site is a work of art." Why not?
Bob Valentine