Broadway Pit Orchestra Size
Ron
I started orchestrating a musical I am working on and need some
advice on pit size. Can I get away with as many as 30 musicians?
Orchestra (29 Musicians)
Instrument Doubling Instrument(s)
Flute I
Flute II Alto Sax Tenor Sax
Oboe I
Oboe II
Clarinet I
Clarinet II Tenor Sax (Alto Sax)
Bassoon
Fr. Horn I
Fr. Horn II
Trumpet 1
Trumpet 2 Flugel Horn
Trombone I
Trombone II
Baritone Sax Alto Sax (Tenor Sax)
Violin I (1st)
Violin I (2nd)
Violin II (1st)
Violin II (2nd)
Viola I
Viola II
Cello I
Cello II
Double Bass Bowed Bass Guitar Double Bass (Jazz)
Banjo Rock Guitar Jazz Guitar
Harp
Piano
Drums Percussion
Tympani Percussion
Tubular Bells Glockenspiel Percussion
I'm more flexible with regards to the size of the company. I
could always go 3 on a part for 24 voices.
Company chorus (32 Voices)
Soprano I 4 Soprano II 4
Alto I 4 Alto II 4
Tenor I 4 Tenor II 4
Baritone 4 Bass 4
I appreciate any feedback.
Thanks,
Ron Buesser
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Ron
The real question remains, can I have an orchestra of 30?
Thanks,
Ron
Dr.Matt
Ron <rbue...@asapsc.com> wrote:
>My original message got messed up with line breaks.
>
>The real question remains, can I have an orchestra of 30?
>
>Thanks,
>Ron
The answer varies not only with the size of your hall
(La Scala? Yes. Local high school? Maybe. Your patron's living room?
maybe not) but also budget (how much are players paid? $500? $750? $900?).
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David Sherman
Ron,
The standard Broadway Pit Orchestra has 26 players
Here is the standard setup:
6 Violins
2 Violas
2 Cellos
1 Bass
5 Winds (we'll get into this later)
3 Trumpets
2 Trombones
2 French Horns
Percussion
Drums
Piano/Synth
Standard 5 winds in a pit orchestra look someting like this:
1. Flute, Piccolo
2. Flute Clarinet
3. Clarinet, Bass Clarinet
4. Bassoon, Bass Clarinet
5. Oboe, English Horn
You can also use combinations of Sax, flutes and clarinets. Most players who
work on Broadway play all four saxes. I would say that 90% of them also play
both Flute and Clarinet.
However, if you are going to use saxes, flutes, clarinets as an arrnager would
score for a big band AND you would also lie to use an oboe at some point in
your score, I would keep one chair dedicated to Oboe/ English Horn.
Also, remember that if you are planning on using 2 synths (some broadway
orchestras have as many as 4 synths in the orchestra) you have to take away
someone else because of the space that is taken up by the keyboard.
Lately the pit orchestra is changing. In the recent B'way production of Fosse
there are 4 trumpets but no trombones. I believe the low brass parts are
covered by synths.
Any other questions - contact me.
David
remove "nospam" from address
MrPye
<rbue...@asapsc.com> writes:
>Double Bass Bowed Bass Guitar Double Bass (Jazz)
Do you need a bowed double bass and a jazz double bass playing at the same
time? If (as I imagine) not, I would have thought that most bass players could
switch between the two methods of playing.
Glen Daum
she...@aol.comnospam (David Sherman) wrote:
> > Lately the pit orchestra is changing. In the recent B'way production
of Fosse
> there are 4 trumpets but no trombones. I believe the low brass parts are
> covered by synths. >
Good advice in general. Just one correction: "Fosse" on Broadway is
scored for 4 trumpets and 3 trombones (2 tenors and a bass). The string
parts are all covered by two synth players (in addition to the
piano/keyboard chair).
I understand that the road show versions have rescored for 3 trumpets and
possibly other reductions as well.
>
Neal
bass.
MrPye wrote in message <20000418194726...@nso-cm.aol.com>...
Neal
Ron wrote in message <11f080e3...@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com>...
>Hi,
>
>I started orchestrating a musical I am working on and need some
>advice on pit size. Can I get away with as many as 30 musicians?
There's a few things to consider. Budget? Size of pit where this will be
presented?
If it were me, I'd score a tad smaller, 26 pieces. I'd drop the oboe 2, put
bassoon on the bari book, and try to get by with only 2 percussionists,
putting some things like mallets in the piano/synth part. Space is a really
big issue. The chorus size also depends on stage size, director's whim and
budget.
Actually, if it were me, I'd score for a small 20-piece group, and then
expand the orchestration to the size of my dreams, changing some parts in
the core group to cues to be played only in the absence of.... In fact
recall an orchestration book which eludes me but it describes scoring in
this way - writing for a small group, then fleshing out to full-size. That
way, if the budget gets cut and you lose money for musicians the show can be
done with a smaller instrumentation without extra arranging.
>Orchestra (29 Musicians)
>
>Instrument Doubling Instrument(s)
>
>Flute I
>Flute II Alto Sax Tenor Sax
>Oboe I
>Oboe II
>Clarinet I
>Clarinet II Tenor Sax (Alto Sax)
>Bassoon
>
>Fr. Horn I
>Fr. Horn II
>Trumpet 1
>Trumpet 2 Flugel Horn
>Trombone I
>Trombone II
>Baritone Sax Alto Sax (Tenor Sax)
>
>Violin I (1st)
>Violin I (2nd)
>Violin II (1st)
>Violin II (2nd)
>Viola I
>Viola II
>Cello I
>Cello II
>Double Bass Bowed Bass Guitar Double Bass (Jazz)
>Banjo Rock Guitar Jazz Guitar
>
>Harp
>Piano
>Drums Percussion
>Tympani Percussion
>Tubular Bells Glockenspiel Percussion
>
>I'm more flexible with regards to the size of the company. I
>could always go 3 on a part for 24 voices.
>
>Company chorus (32 Voices)
>
>Soprano I 4 Soprano II 4
>Alto I 4 Alto II 4
>Tenor I 4 Tenor II 4
>Baritone 4 Bass 4
>
>
>I appreciate any feedback.
>
>Thanks,
>Ron Buesser
>
>
MrPye
writes:
>He indicated that each row was one player. One guy on acoustic and electric
>bass.
He did, didn't he? I really must start reading these messages properly.
<slinks off in embarrassment>
dancertm
wrote:
>
>There's a few things to consider. Budget? Size of pit where this will be
>presented?
>
>If it were me, I'd score a tad smaller, 26 pieces. I'd drop the oboe 2,
I totally agree, the copying costs alone drives this WAY up. Also
remember, reed players can double. So if the sax is not being used, he
or she can also play the flute. Synths are often used to fill out
orchestration, take a look at Les Miz for example.
Ron
Its my fault. My original list got messed up with line breaks.
Hopefully, here's how it was supposed to look:
Flute I
>>
Flute II(Alto Sax,Tenor Sax)
>>
Oboe I
>>
Oboe II(English Horn)
>>
Clarinet I
>>
Clarinet II(Tenor Sax,Alto Sax)
>>
Bassoon
>>
Fr. Horn I
>>
Fr. Horn II
>>
Trumpet 1
>>
Trumpet 2(Flugel Horn)
>>
Trombone I
>>
Trombone II
>>
Baritone Sax(Alto Sax,Tenor Sax)
>>
Violin I (1st)
>>
Violin I (2nd)
>>
Violin II (1st)
>>
Violin II (2nd)
>>
Viola I
>>
Viola II
>>
Cello I
>>
Cello II
>>
Double Bass Bowed(Bass Guitar, Double Bass Jazz)
>>
Banjo(Rock Guitar, Jazz Guitar)
>>
Harp
>>
Piano
>>
Drums(Percussion)
>>
Tympani(Percussion)
>>
Tubular Bells(Glockenspiel, Percussion)
>>
I have a killer Banjo part on the opening number playing
throughout. Can I expect this person to be able to play Rock and
Jazz. I could always bail on the Jazz Guitar if I had to.
The Piano player could be one of the Violin II on synth I guess.
And whatever other compromise I might be forced into.
Harp is a must for my score, although I may need someone to
rework that part when I am finished to check that it is all
playable with the chromatics. I never quite mastered that.
Should I assume that only two kettle drums are exceptable
because of size constraints. I guess they could pedal.
If I cut the third persuccionist, can I assume that both the
Tympanist and Drummer can cover tuned percussion?
I think I can make some of the modifications mentioned and get
it down to 26, although I would like to find that book mentioned
about growing the orchestra out of an existing smaller score.
I use Sibelius and Roland JV synths to play back. I hear a
wonderful synthesized orchestra in all of my Multimedia work. I
would like to hear real instruments in this work that I care
much more deeply about than my blow off Multimedia
Orchestrations. I know there is reality to contend with, but I'm
still hopeful. The show is more in the Rodgers & Hammerstein
tradition, and not the Andrew L-W, or Cy Coleman vein, so I do
need a big score to bring it to life.
I appreciate any and all comments.
Thanks so much,
Ron
Did you mean having a copyist do the parts. I use Sibelius so
this is not an issue. I just arranged a choral/band jazz show
where I printed all of the chorus and instrumental parts with no
problems, (outside of this composer's normal moments of
incompetence), that is.
It prints professional quality parts. All one needs is a good
quality laser printer. I can just hit a button to extract parts.
A little clean-up is required, but not much. Infinitely better
than Finale or Encore.
John Rutter uses it, lots of movie guys, etc.
Ron
Michael Haslam
> Did you mean having a copyist do the parts. I use Sibelius so
> this is not an issue. I just arranged a choral/band jazz show
> where I printed all of the chorus and instrumental parts with no
> problems, (outside of this composer's normal moments of
> incompetence), that is.
>
> It prints professional quality parts. All one needs is a good
> quality laser printer. I can just hit a button to extract parts.
> A little clean-up is required, but not much. Infinitely better
> than Finale or Encore.
>
> John Rutter uses it, lots of movie guys, etc.
>
> Ron
I'm not sure that the "movie guys' print out instrumental parts themselves.
More likely send the Sib. file to a professional copyist who tidies up the
extracted parts.
Regards,
MJH
Ron
she...@aol.comnospam (David Sherman) wrote:
>>The real question remains, can I have an orchestra of 30?
>
>Ron,
>
>The standard Broadway Pit Orchestra has 26 players
>Here is the standard setup:
>
>
>David
>
>
David, and others,
Thank you for the information. Your ideas helped me a lot. I
went back and was easily able to modify my orchestra to 24 or 26
players depending on whether I have 4 or 6 violins. I also went
to the music library at UNCG and found a book that listed all of
Berlin, Gershwin, Porter, and Rodgers & Hart musicals. It showed
the instrumentation for each.
Apparently it hasn't changed that much. Almost all of them are
fairly similar (Gershwin being the more classically oriented
orchestrationally). The typical was 24 - 26 players. Pretty much
exactly as you said.
Reed I, II, III, IV, V, (VI)
Horn I, (II)
Trumpet I, II, (III)
Trombone I, (II)
Piano
Percussion
either (Piano II/Celeste - obviously synth today) or (Percussion
II)
Violin A, B, C (D)
Viola (I, II)
Cello I (II)
Bass
(Guitar/Banjo)
(Some even had Violin doubling Guitar)
What does the designation Violin A and Violin B mean as opposed
to Violin I and Violin II. Do they mean two per part? I pulled
some show scores that my wife played piano for in the pit, and
they all had 6 violins (don't ask me why I just thought of
that). I'm assuming that means 2 for A, 2 for B, 2 for C. Why do
they use a different convention?
Thanks again to you, and everyone else's magnanimous willingness
to help.
Sincerely,
Ron Buesser
Ronald Buesser
Composer/Countertenor
rbue...@asapsc.com
Ron
<mike...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm not sure that the "movie guys' print out instrumental parts
themselves.
>More likely send the Sib. file to a professional copyist who
tidies up the
>extracted parts.
>
That's probably true. They do live in on a different budget, I
imagine.
Ron
Neal
Ron wrote in message <1c63cb90...@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com>...
>What does the designation Violin A and Violin B mean as opposed
>to Violin I and Violin II. Do they mean two per part?
Yes. Violin 1 and Violin 2 suggest that there are multiple desks of players
in each part. Violins A and B imply two players per part - the letters
suggest one desk of players. The exception is the bass, which is normally
only one per part. The standard pit orchestra for Broadway music is Violins
A, B and C, Violas, Celli and Bass - 11 players.
David Sherman
>scored for 4 trumpets and 3 trombones (2 tenors and a bass). The string
>parts are all covered by two synth players (in addition to the
>piano/keyboard chair).
>
>I understand that the road show versions have rescored for 3 trumpets and
>possibly other reductions as well.
I don't have the Playbill handy, but I could swear there were no low brass.
But thanks anyway for the update. I stand corrected.
David Sherman
>in each part. Violins A and B imply two players per part - the letters
>suggest one desk of players. The exception is the bass, which is normally
>only one per part. The standard pit orchestra for Broadway music is Violins
>A, B and C, Violas, Celli and Bass - 11 players.
I agree with Neal and I would just add one thing:
Unlike standard orchestral writing were you have Violin I and II and generally
you write two independant parts, it is a quirky standard that Broadway, and
other large production scores (like the kind you would hear accompanying
Sinatra or Streisand) that strings are scored in three distinct parts. That
way you are capable of scoring full six note chords for the string section. It
also gives you a lot more flexibility with changing the balance of the string
section.
For example if you want a melody line played in unison, but want to darken the
color, you can use Violins A and B and the Violas. Violas can also play in
unison with the Celli while the Vlns play in three parts. I could go on, but
you can see that you have a lot of options.
Writing six part chords for the strings is how you get those lush string sounds
that you hear on recordings from the 50's and 60's. Try it, you'll like it!
remove "nospam" from address
David Sherman
>More likely send the Sib. file to a professional copyist who tidies up the
>extracted parts.
I don't know how tey do it out in LA, but here in NYC I hear complaints all the
time from players who have to read off of computer generated parts - especially
those who have been printed by writers who have no idea how a part is supposed
to look or what it's supposed to do.
On the orchestra side, players complain that composers just put bars and bars
of rests and never any cues. If the tempo of the piece changes frequently,
they can get lost before they turn the first page. Page turns are another issue
that makes them nuts. A lot of people don't understand that players have to
have a bar or two to turn the page every two pages. They just squeeze eight or
ten lines on every page regardless of what is going on. I actually saw a page
turn in one part right in the middle of a really hectic 16th note passage on a
flute part. Incredible.
On the commercial/broadway side, the biggest complaint I hear is that the parts
and the notes are TOO SMALL. Standard 10 stave part manuscript paper is 10.5 x
12.5 and it is made out of heavy stock paper (it's almost card stock it so
thick). Also, professional copyists use a think nibbed pen and dark black ink,
and write directions (like pizz. or con sord.) in big block letters and
surround it with thick lines on three sides -- sort of like this: (____). It
can be easily read at arms length or farther in a not-so-well-lit orchestra pit
-- and IN WON'T FALL OFF THE MUSIC STAND!!! Zerox paper has a maddening way of
falling off music stands. And it does - all the time!
I agree that sending the computer files to a professional copyist is te way to
go. They will print it out the way players are accustomed to seeing music, and
that (at the very least) will give you a much better reading (remember - there
are always subs in the orchestra pit on any given night - they might not know
the score as well as the regular player - so why risk it!)
<getting off my soap box now>
remove "nospam" from address
sha...@earthlink.net
Those interested in this topic might enjoy the recently released (don't think it
was ever officially published in his lifetime) autobiography of Rbt. Russell
Bennett "The Broadway Sound". Lots of great stories about orchestrating for
Kern, Gershwin, Rodgers, etc. Includes reprints of several of his articles on
arranging, Broadway, and Hollywood related subjects as well.
Michael Haslam
regards, MJH
Dr.Matt
>
>> Did you mean having a copyist do the parts. I use Sibelius so
>> this is not an issue. I just arranged a choral/band jazz show
>> where I printed all of the chorus and instrumental parts with no
>> problems, (outside of this composer's normal moments of
>> incompetence), that is.
>>
>> It prints professional quality parts. All one needs is a good
>> quality laser printer. I can just hit a button to extract parts.
>> A little clean-up is required, but not much. Infinitely better
>> than Finale or Encore.
>>
>> John Rutter uses it, lots of movie guys, etc.
>>
>> Ron
>
>More likely send the Sib. file to a professional copyist who tidies up the
>extracted parts.
To which I'd add that sib files need tidying just as much as Finale
files. There's no hot-link between parts and score (none of this
"Part is a filtered subselection of the score" that drives Lime and
now, I hear, Igor, and that has been the feature I've most requested
in Sibelius), and there are a lot of unimplemented but highly
mechanical rules (e.g. the rules on accidentals on ties within and
across systems), plus some difficult ones to implement (adjusting
shapes of hairpins and slurs), and of course the very basic but
tricky-to-implement "player can only turn pages when hands are free"
(of course the composer must initially take responsibility for giving
every player adequate breathing space).
Mark D. Lew
fie...@login.itd.umich.edu (Dr.Matt) wrote:
> To which I'd add that sib files need tidying just as much as Finale
> files. There's no hot-link between parts and score (none of this
> "Part is a filtered subselection of the score" that drives Lime and
> now, I hear, Igor, and that has been the feature I've most requested
> in Sibelius), and there are a lot of unimplemented but highly
> mechanical rules (e.g. the rules on accidentals on ties within and
> across systems), plus some difficult ones to implement (adjusting
> shapes of hairpins and slurs), and of course the very basic but
> tricky-to-implement "player can only turn pages when hands are free"
> (of course the composer must initially take responsibility for giving
> every player adequate breathing space).
I take it for granted that any part is going to need some typographical
editing by an intelligent human who understands the players' needs (ie,
page turns, cues, etc.). Any of the decent software packages will let you
do this, it's just a matter of doing it.
The problem isn't that computers produce inferior copies; the problem is
that a lot of people expect the computers to do their decision-making for
them.
mdl