Serialism vs. Atonality
Wayne Freno
Can someone point out the differences between Serialism and
atonality? I seem to get them confused. Thanks.
--
end soundbite
Lewis Saul
Atonal music does not express itself in diatonic terms (no tonal center, no
"traditional" cadential movement, etc.)
Serial music is a subset of atonal music, but uses the 12-tone system of note
rows as a basis for a "new" kind of harmony.
Serial music is always atonal, but
Atonal music is not always serial
--
Lewis Saul
TFZMRI
ls...@azstarnet.com
Wayne Freno wrote in message <6j0uhh$m...@milo.vcn.bc.ca>...
Matt
In article <6j19cs$3...@reader1.news>, Lewis Saul <ls...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>Atonal music does not express itself in diatonic terms (no tonal center, no
>"traditional" cadential movement, etc.)
>Serial music is a subset of atonal music, but uses the 12-tone system of note
>rows as a basis for a "new" kind of harmony.
>Serial music is always atonal, but
>Atonal music is not always serial
Lewis's take on atonality--the use of means other than tonality--is
right on.
Serialism is an approach to construction using series---usually
series of directed intervals. 12-tone serialism is a specific case in
point. And as the case of the Berg Violin Concerto (serial, and
evidently in Bb major) reminds us, the claim that serial music is
always atonal is a bit controversial.
Serialism is a sketchy notion of a construction method, and most of
the famous music constructed by that method turns out to be atonal;
but this accounts for only a tiny fraction of famous atonal music.
Most listeners cannot reliably detect either atonality or serialism
as these are descriptions of technique that don't immediately tell us
what a piece will feel like. 99% of the time, when some listener on
a newsgroup says something like "that's soooo.... serial" they mean
something that only they can explain, because they have come to
associate "serial" with the sound of the first piece of music
they were ever told was serial, whether it actually was or not.
From a listener's point of view, it usually suffices to know that
serialism is a composer's technique, like invertable counterpoint,
that composers use to guide themselves in making music that sounds
unified but has room for variety in it. True, it arose when composers
were first thinking of ways of structuring atonal musics, but such
composers as Stravinsky and Schoenberg used it as an aid to making the
kinds of music they each were already making (in Stravinsky's case, a
strongly rhythmically driven music related in sound to Mussorgsky; in
Schoenberg's case, a strongly expressive music with interplay of
melodic lines extending ideas from e.g. late Beethoven and Brahms).
Some more technical details start at
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields/gems/5.htm
The terms "atonal" and "serial" are both very vague, and apply to wide
varieties of music.
--
Matt Fields, DMA http://listen.to/mattaj TwelveToneToyBox http://start.at/tttb
lsto...@EAGLE1.EAGLENET.COM hostm...@CONNIX.COM Sheila...@MSVU.CA
Be sure to send them all the spam mail you send to me!
Philip Kappaz
The term "Atonality" is a term that describes the tonal, or harmonic
aspects of a piece, while the term "Serialism" describes a method of
composition. They are two different terms which apply to two different
aspects of music. As was said by Matt, a work composed with serialized
methods does not necessarily have to be atonal. Likewise an atonal
work is not necessarily composed with serailzed methods.
DR PCK
K C Moore
> Can someone point out the differences between Serialism and
> atonality? I seem to get them confused. Thanks.
Well, some people use the terms (and dodecaphony) interchangeably, but
I like to distinguish them as follows:
Serial - using a row of pitch classes* completely before reusing it, and
combining it with its transpositions, inversion, retrograde and all
distinct combinations of those operations, similarly used completely
before reuse. The row should have no pitch class occurring twice,
though adjacent repeats are permitted in use.
Atonal - lacking a key centre (more strictly, lacking traditional
cadences, but I don't suppose many other people use it to mean that).
Dodecaphonic - distinguishing only 12 pitch classes.
* A pitch class is all notes with the same name, irrespective of
register, ie octaves are equivalent.
In this view, music could have one of these characteristics without the
others, any two or all three. I am looking forward to hearing a serial
atonal piece in 19 note ET - would that be enneakaidecaphonic?
Various computer programs will do the 48 (including the identity) serial
transformations of a 12 PC row. I use a 1986 freeware version of Larry
Solomon's Music Analysis System, which also produces canonical forms of
PC sets.
--
Ken Moore
k...@hpsl.demon.co.uk
Ron Schulz
Wayne Freno wrote:
> Are there different kinds of serialism other than 12-tone?
>
> --
> end soundbite
There is a style of composition called "Total Serialism" which "serializes"
all musical elements: Pitch, Duration, Articulation and Dynamics.
Check out Pierre Boulez, particularly "Le Marteau sans Maitre" (Hammer w/o a
master)
Ron
Jim
I would tend to disagree that all serialism is atonal. If one was to
construct a peice with, let uas say, 12 instruments. It is then possible to
develop each instrument so that the next pitch of their particular row is
part of, say, an F mahjor scale. If then, from here, each instrument can
play their pitch (which are in F), in a certain manner to portray or give a
tonal center.
Wayne Freno
Philip Kappaz (pka...@gr.com) wrote:
: The term "Atonality" is a term that describes the tonal, or harmonic
: aspects of a piece, while the term "Serialism" describes a method of
: composition. They are two different terms which apply to two different
: aspects of music. As was said by Matt, a work composed with serialized
: methods does not necessarily have to be atonal. Likewise an atonal
: work is not necessarily composed with serailzed methods.
Thanks to you all for your answers, this is something new to me and I find
it very interesting. I have a couple more questions though...
Is Serialism still used as a compositional method, or did it go out of
vogue? Are there different kinds of serialism other than 12-tone?
--
end soundbite
Albert Silverman
In article <894702...@hpsl.demon.co.uk>,
K C Moore <k...@hpsl.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <6j0uhh$m...@milo.vcn.bc.ca> wfr...@vcn.bc.ca "Wayne Freno" writes:
>
>> Can someone point out the differences between Serialism and
>> atonality? I seem to get them confused. Thanks.
>
>Well, some people use the terms (and dodecaphony) interchangeably, but
>I like to distinguish them as follows:
>
>Serial - using a row of pitch classes* completely before reusing it, and
>combining it with its transpositions, inversion, retrograde and all
>distinct combinations of those operations, similarly used completely
>before reuse. The row should have no pitch class occurring twice,
>though adjacent repeats are permitted in use.
>
>Atonal - lacking a key centre (more strictly, lacking traditional
>cadences, but I don't suppose many other people use it to mean that).
I see.
Then this implies that if a piece HAS a "key centre" (like A Time for
Us, for example, whose key centre is G), it is "tonal"?
And since Tristan and Isolde has no "key centre," it must be "atonal."
Now it is all very clear. I have been wondering about this for some time.
Albert Silverman
(Al is in Wonderland!)
>
>--
>Ken Moore
>k...@hpsl.demon.co.uk
>
Albert Silverman
In article <6j19cs$3...@reader1.news>, Lewis Saul <ls...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>Atonal music does not express itself in diatonic terms (no tonal center, no
>"traditional" cadential movement, etc.)
So would you say that Nino Rota's "A Time for Us" is tonal or atonal?
>Serial music is a subset of atonal music, but uses the 12-tone system of note
>rows as a basis for a "new" kind of harmony.
>
>Serial music is always atonal, but
>Atonal music is not always serial
>
>--
>Lewis Saul
>TFZMRI
>ls...@azstarnet.com
>
>Wayne Freno wrote in message <6j0uhh$m...@milo.vcn.bc.ca>...
>>Can someone point out the differences between Serialism and
>>atonality? I seem to get them confused. Thanks.
>>
>>--
>>end soundbite
>>
>
>
Matt
Serialism reached a momentary "vogue" in the late fifties and early 60's,
but it's been used continuously since the 1920s. I've used it myself.
Yes, you can structure pieces on series of lengths other than 12.
Philip Kappaz
Serial music is not necessarily a subset of atonal music. As I mentioned before,
serialism (dodecaphony, or whatever else one might wish to call it) is a method of
composition. Atonality may or may not be the result of that compositional
technique. They are not intrinsicaly connected in any way.
A Time for Us has a tonal center, so it it tonal. Tristan has a tonal center,
although somewhat ambiguous, but it does, and it is therefore also tonal.
DR PCK
Albert Silverman
Have you consulted with old "Doc" Strangelogic about the "tonality" of A
Time for Us?
You say that Tristan has a "tonal center."
How is this determined?
>
>DR PCK
>
>
>
Todd Booth
wfr...@vcn.bc.ca,Internet writes:
>Can someone point out the differences between Serialism and
>atonality? I seem to get them confused. Thanks.
>
>--
>end soundbite
>
wfr...@vcn.bc.ca,Internet writes:
>Can someone point out the differences between Serialism and
>atonality? I seem to get them confused. Thanks.
>
>--
>end soundbite
Serialism is music built on the series: a series of 12 tones chosen in
advance of the composition, like a taylor chooses the material before
making the coat. It actually can be fairly "tonal" if the composer
chooses... ie: arpeggiate over traids, uses parts of diatonic scales,
resolve dissonances as they would be resolved in traditional harmony.
Atonality is a piece of music without a "key", "keys" or a "tonal
center"... and it may or may not be based on a series (as in serialism)
So your confusion is not uncommon. The terms "serial technique" and
"atonality" are often used interchangably. But you can write "tonally"
using serialism and you can write "atonally" without serialism.
Todd Booth
dana
Todd Booth wrote:
> Serialism is music built on the series: a series of 12 tones chosen in
> advance of the composition, like a taylor chooses the material before
> making the coat.
For a minute, I thought you were referring to Taylor Hanson... ;-)
dana
ks dennis
Albert Silverman (slv...@netcom.com) wrote:
: You say that Tristan has a "tonal center."
:
: How is this determined?
You are just *playing* dumb, right ?
Ryan
Matt
In article <fc.000f47940012659d3b...@goodmedia.com>,
Todd Booth <TBo...@goodmedia.com> wrote:
>
>Serialism is music built on the series: a series of 12 tones chosen
That's twelve-tone serialism, a particular form of it.
>in
^^
>advance of the composition
^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
Yow! NO! This is the exception, not the rule!
, like a taylor chooses the material before
>making the coat.
Performers make the music, the composer only designs it (and crosses
over into performer in electronic music). Saying that serialism is built
by choosing a series first, then writing the music, is like saying
Bach's fugues were written by choosing the entry points for the stretti,
then trying out different tunes until one of them works in those
stretti, or like saying that opera is written by developing a melody
from beginning to the end, then fitting words to it and trying to make
the words add up to a coherent drama. It can be done, but in real
life, the process of making art is rarely so linear and orderly!
[otherwise, good posting]
Albert Silverman
In article <6j90d6$7p1$1...@groa.uct.ac.za>,
How could you possibly say such a thing? Why should I *play* dumb, when
*being* dumb is pure bliss?
I am indeed very interested in how _this particular individual_, who
claims that Tristan und Isolde has a "tonal center," goes about backing
up his claim.
I am anxiously awaiting his answer, since it appears that we have a
teensy, weensy bit of disagreement over this point.
Albert Silverman