Performance or Composition?
Colby N. Leider
is in a slightly different light. Perhaps others have been confronted with
this situation and could shed some light...
I enetered college intending to study composition, and recently my organ
teacher has been suggesting that I seriously consider getting my bachelor's
degree in organ instead of composition, and that the composition will come
better with time. Most people I talk to seem to think he is right in this
regard, that learning the instrument precedes composing. My teacher is
not trying to persuade me simply to gain another student, but has said
he sincerely believes I will become a great (or swell) organist :).
Any thoughts on this?
colby
Matthew H. Fields
to impose your own compositions on the assembly, that is a fine and
respectable way to be a composer, much akin to how Bach worked... and
Quist... and others too numerous to mention. But composition does NOT
flow from playing organ any more than playing organ flows from
composition or ballet flows from research in physical chemistry.
Sure, everything is related, but if after all that first-year
composition classes do to discourage you from pursuing the matter
further ( ;-> ) you still want to be a composer, don't sell yourself
short by hoping to learn composition from performance. The last thing
we need now is more compositions by the like of Zamfir,
i.e. performers who think that because they made concertmaster, they
should be allowed to walk in and perform neurosurgery.
Matthew H. Fields
You already can read music, right? and you can sight-read, however
haltingly, and by this year in your career, when somebody sticks an
unfamiliar orchestra score in front of your face, you can haltingly
read it and begin to imagine the music...Continued study of keyboards
and in particular the organ may indeed lead you to a virtuoso career,
and may indeed function in symbiosis with your compositional studies,
but the instrument does not replace compositional studies, and "it'll
come in time" sounds like part of the mythos of the composer-hero who
begins writing Mahlerian symphonies after years of piano lessons and
a couple weeks of counterpoint.
Thomas Ford Brown
In article <2tno30$e...@zip.eecs.umich.edu> fie...@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew H. Fields) writes:
>IMHO if you want to be a church organist and use your position thereby
>to impose your own compositions on the assembly, that is a fine and
>respectable way to be a composer, much akin to how Bach worked... and
>Quist... and others too numerous to mention.
Becoming a conductor, or a music school master, are two other
time-honored ways of imposing your compositions on subordinate performers.
(I know this is not the point of your post, but I think a
discussion of how composers can wield power is worthwhile.)
Jeff Harrington
: I know there has been a bit of discussion on this recently, but my question
: Any thoughts on this?
Other posters have mentioned this in different ways but to survive today
as a composer you need:
1. A Job
2. Time to compose
3. Contact with musicians interested in new music
Seems like an organ career might be an inroad into all of the above. The
only problem as I see it is that you have to have the time to compose
regulary and your studies in pursuit of your organ career might impede
this. IMHO you have to write a *lot* of music just to become a mediocre
composer. What opportunities do you have for comp studies while you
pursue the organ? Private study?
A lot of good composers have been organists - 3 of my faves, Messiaen,
Bruckner, Bach...
Jeff
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Werner Icking
>Other posters have mentioned this in different ways but to survive today
>as a composer you need:
>1. A Job
A better start could be a rich SO :-)
Werner
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>
> (I know this is not the point of your post, but I think a
> discussion of how composers can wield power is worthwhile.)
>
Inheriting a lot of money always helps. And that's not a joke.
mp4...@albnyvms.bitnet
are, nor how good or talented an organist. If you are meant to be
a composer, then the organ is an excellent instrument to
start on (great organ composers include Bach, Reger, Buxtude, Brukner
among others).
The correlation between performance and composition is overrated,
what is important is the correlation between your performance and your
composition, where do you feel need work. If you have ideas and vocabulary
but do not know how to put them into notes, then by all means study
organ, if you are still unsire of your techniqeu as a composer,
then compostional study is order. What you get your degree in
I think, should be more related to what you think will
help you the most in the outside world in a social and economic
stand point: just because the university wants to put
you in a box (organ major, comp major etc.) does not mean you should
accept their designation.
Margaret-Mary Petit Internet: MP4...@uacsc1.albany.edu
Rockefeller College Bitnet: MP4...@albnyvms.bitnet
SUNY Albany, NY
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Biard MacGuineas
FI> my organ teacher has been suggesting that I seriously consider
FI> getting my bachelor's degree in organ instead of composition, and
FI> that the composition will come better with time.
I say: study computer science for now; the composition will come with
time.
--Biard
Matthew H. Fields
Colby N. Leider <co...@daisy.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
<I'm trying to handle both at the same time. (Actually, electrical engineering.)I get about the same feeling composing as I do solving a multivariable
<partial differential equation. Call me weird.
Actually, both have been approached from the perspective of constraint
logic programming. While CLP doesn't necessarily capture all the subtleties
of musical composition, the idea of trying to optimize or correctly fulfil
a bunch of overlapping requirements does reflect a lot of composers' frames
of mind. And as I recall, in general, diff-eq is a field with many
special techniques that work but no uniform problem-solving theory.
Music is like that in some ways.
Enjoy!
Matt
Colby N. Leider
I'm trying to handle both at the same time. (Actually, electrical engineering.)I get about the same feeling composing as I do solving a multivariable
partial differential equation. Call me weird.
colby
Colby N. Leider
...which brings up something I've been struggling with lately. It's the
*concept* of algorithmic composition. a big part of me wants to follow the
notion that composing is a mystical thing; even Stockhausen said
Man has qualities which can never be replaced by a robot ... They are there
so that he shall have more time for the truly human tasks -- those of
creation. [quoted in Ernst, _The_Evolution_of_Electronic_Music_ (1977)]
And then there's the side that says, for lack of a better expression, that
alg-comp is "way cool." But then I've only dabbled -- thought experiments,
as Einstein would say.
colby
john anthony guarino
My advice is to learn as many instruments as possible and to take each
one seriously (but 2nd to composition). When I was growing up I learned
to play most instruments, and to this day it's helped me with
instrumentation, and other things.
The point is that although composition will come, any study in MUSIC
will help you composition. Each group of instrumentalists of different
genres have different philosophies and attitudes.
A year ago, I took up the sackbut and recorder and learned MORE about
MUSIC than any composition lesson.
Majoring in organ, IMHO, is too limiting. Organists have a way of
looking at music based on their standard repertoire. What about
tubists, saxophonists, percussionists, or harpsichordists? I think
these are performance endeavors worth pursuing for any musician,
particularly a composer interested in encompassing as much experience as
possible.
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Vance Maverick
> I've been struggling with [...] the
> *concept* of algorithmic composition. A big part of me wants to follow the
> notion that composing is a mystical [i.e. human-only] thing [....]
> And then there's the side that says, for lack of a better expression, that
> alg-comp is "way cool."
Really, there's no contradiction. Perhaps this is easier to approach
with other music which was "caused" rather than composed; take Alvin
Lucier's _Music on a Long Thin Wire_, an example I've used before. He
strung a wire across the rotunda of a public building, and installed
an electromagnetic driver which pulsed it at a controllable frequency.
The actual sound the wire made depended on currents in the air;
harmonics faded in and out, often to silence. Each of the 4 sides of
the original double LP was recorded with a different driving
frequency. It's a very interesting "environmental" recording. Now,
did he compose it? Well, it wouldn't have happened without him; he
made the sound possible, and selected the cuts for the LP. We can
choose not to call this composition, but it's certainly close. If I
had pursued the same idea, the recording would have been different.
Also check out Cage and Xenakis -- and finally, remember the role of
the listener. Walking in the mountains or looking at the sky can be
very mystical, but there's nothing human about the objects of such
contemplation.
Vance
James Langdell
ki...@sunick.gmd.de (Werner Icking) writes:
>idea...@dorsai.org (Jeff Harrington) writes:
>
>>Other posters have mentioned this in different ways but to survive today
>>as a composer you need:
>
>>1. A Job
>
>A better start could be a rich SO :-)
I recall that Virgil Thomson's book "The State of Music" gave
that as very proven, practical advice for an aspiring composer.
--James Langdell jam...@eng.sun.com
Sun Microsystems Mountain View, Calif.
Thomas Ford Brown
>*concept* of algorithmic composition. a big part of me wants to follow the
>notion that composing is a mystical thing;
Well, if you're a mystic then everything you do is
potentially a mystical experience--even creating algorithms.
Jonathan E. Quist
Me too... only I chose EE because it was "practical", and left
performance and composition for those "extra classes when
I can fit them in".
That choice is probably the single biggest mistake of my life.
If you can pull off a double major, even if it requires an
extra year or two ("Uh, Mom, Dad, I've got news..."), go for it.
If you're like most folks, you will never have more freedom
to shape your life than you do now.
Oh, BTW, after graduation, I never again ran into a situation
which required me to solve a partial differential equation.
There have been dozens of times where I could have used
stronger harmonic skills.
Don't surrender to practical now... you gotta save something
for your old age!
--
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DoD #094, KotPP, KotCF '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep" Naperville, IL
__ There's nothing quite like the pitter-patter of little feet,
\/ followed by the words "Daddy! Yay!"
Jonathan E. Quist
> The correlation between performance and composition is overrated,
>what is important is the correlation between your performance and your
>composition, where do you feel need work. If you have ideas and vocabulary
>but do not know how to put them into notes, then by all means study
>organ, if you are still unsire of your techniqeu as a composer,
>then compostional study is order. What you get your degree in
>I think, should be more related to what you think will
>help you the most in the outside world in a social and economic
>stand point: just because the university wants to put
>you in a box (organ major, comp major etc.) does not mean you should
>accept their designation.
Very well put... it may be worth looking into the option of
an ad-hoc major. If you do, however, you have to be very careful
that you don't miss something you need...
Jonathan E. Quist
>"Learning the instrument precedes composing"...
>and may indeed function in symbiosis with your compositional studies,
>but the instrument does not replace compositional studies, and "it'll
>come in time" sounds like part of the mythos of the composer-hero who
>begins writing Mahlerian symphonies after years of piano lessons and
>a couple weeks of counterpoint.
No, no, I don't do Mahlerian.... :')
Having taken something of that approach myself.... I can
honestly say that that mythos is just that. I began writing
my first symphony after years of piano lessons... but the piano
lessons had nothing to do with the composition.
The biggest help I've had from my instrumental studies has
been exposure to music I might not otherwise hear -
each time I take up a new instrument, I gather a bit more
material in the hall closet. (One of these days, McGee is
going to open that closet, and then there'll be hell to pay.)
In fact, probably the strongest effect that years of piano study
ever had on my composition was the body of work I was exposed
to while playing accompaniments for other musicians -
in other words, I could have got much of the same influence
by taking a freshman musicanship class, and completing listening
assignments.
In other words, learning to play an instrument well imposes
a degree of discipline which develops some of the generic
musical skills that apply to composition. But as many have
pointed out, you can acquire these more efficiently through
a program designed to teach theory or composition, than
one centered around performance only.
Of all the works written for the composer's instrument,
how many had premiere performances at the composer's hand?
I suspect that either a little vanity, practicality, or both
had as much influence in the creation of some of these works
as did technical virtuosity; in other words, the performance
came after the composition. My piano teacher used to say
that Gershwin was a lousy pianist... but how many of his
works did he premiere? (Who knows - maybe he wrote
for piano as a means to get playing jobs... :')
Greg Skinner
>> I enetered college intending to study composition, and recently
>I say: study computer science for now; the composition will come with
>time.
Hmmm. Do people become composers by studying computer science?
Seriously, it depends on what you really want ... computer science
will probably give you a better chance at financial security, but you
may not get the training and exposure you need if you want to be a
high-profile composer. You should also ask yourself if you enjoy
computer science (or are willing to put up with it) enough to study it
(and, presumably, work in it).
--gregbo