are these contrapuntal
thedarkman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjQnDzL7nA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H10I3ukSre4
Can anyone tell me if any of the above cleverly constructed songs are
contrapuntal? I'm afraid I hung up my guitar in the early 90s and my
theory is a bit rusty.
Thanks
LJS
Yes, maybe, and hmmm
The first is what is a descant where two melodies are composed to be
complete by their self but can also work together. Won't you Sing a
Simple Melody is another example that was mentioned in group not too
long ago.
The second is more dependent on definitions as to weather the song is
contrapuntal or not. I hear it more as strong contrapuntal elements in
the accompaniments. But counterpoint is certainly present.
The third is much related to the second in this regard, but the
beginning has a melodic accompaniment over a "chant" type of "melody".
I don't know how this would actually be defined but then as the song
progresses it sounds more like the second and more of a contrapuntal
accompaniment to a melody.
LJS
Steve Latham
"thedarkman" <A_B...@abaron.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:862522a0-a286-428a...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
They are not what we'd typically consider contrapuntal, though they do
contain contrapuntal elements.
"Hello My Baby" is in a texture that's typically called "Homophony". Homo -
though meaning "same" is taken to mean what is also simply called "Melody
with Accompaniment".
In "Polyphony" there are more than one melody if interest, so the
distinction is that in Homophonic textures, all or most of the non-melody
voices combine to form a unit what we call the "accompaniment". In
Polyphonic textures there is typically no "main" melody (though certain
lines may take on more importance at various times - but usually this
importance is juggled amongst voices). Typically speaking, Polyphonic music
is contrapuntal by nature.
There's an article on musical texture here to get you started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_texture
Obviously, lines are blurred - for example, Polyphonic Contrapuntal music
that moves in the same rhythm is called Homorhythmic and when that happens,
it remains polyphony but it's "contrapuntal-ness" is practically eliminated.
Likewise, in something like "Hello My Baby", the Vocal melody is distinct
from the accompaniment making it Homophony, but, the Guitar is playing a
distinctive bass line that can be seen as being in counterpoint with the
voice, while the inner "strummed" parts in the guitar are the accompaniment
(including the bass line as well).
The Judy whoever song is again melody with accompaniment, but, the
accompaniment itself could be considered a polyphonic accompaniment texture
with both homorhythmic and contrapuntal elements.
The T'Pau is formed mainly of Drones and/or Ostinati - the Bass Synth line
is an Ostinato, with a higher sustained note being a Drone. When the Synth
chords come in, they move over these two static elements. So we might
"extend" the definition to say that one part is moving against two static
parts, so it is "part against part" whereas counterpoint means "note against
note" - so it's not far-fetched.
But in doing so, you'd really need to explain as the more traditional
definitions of these terms are typically used in a more specific manner. For
some examples, Bach Fugues are Polyphonic and Contrapuntal. Bach Chorales
are Polyphonic and largely Homorhythmic. Mozart Arias are Homophonic, but
Monteverdi Arias are in Monody (which are basically the same thing except
for time period). Gregorian Chant that is a single line (even if sung by a
choir and/or in octaves) is called Monophony.
There maybe be Monophonic passages within Homophonic songs ("Renegade" by
Styx begins with Monophony, moves to Homorhythmic Polyphony, then to
Homophony, "The Ocean" is another similar example by Led Zeppelin).
Heterophony is one of the more interesting ones - musicologist types
probably needed to include it for monophonic music that had embellishments
of the basic part, without being "true" polyphony. A somewhat modern example
would be the Beatle's "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" where Lennon is saying
"I Want You, I want you so bad" etc. and Harrison is doubling him with the
Guitar, which adds subtle embellishments here and there. The melody to
"Bluesette" might also be considered similarly where the whistle and guitar
play the same basic line, but fall out of sync here and there and have
subtle differences (on playing double notes while the other plays singles,
etc.) but obviously that example of heterophony falls within a largely
Homophonic texture that also contains some Polyphonic elements!
HTH,
Steve
LJS
>
> "Hello My Baby" is in a texture that's typically called "Homophony". Homo -
> though meaning "same" is taken to mean what is also simply called "Melody
> with Accompaniment".
>
> In "Polyphony" there are more than one melody if interest, so the
> distinction is that in Homophonic textures, all or most of the non-melody
> voices combine to form a unit what we call the "accompaniment". In
> Polyphonic textures there is typically no "main" melody (though certain
> lines may take on more importance at various times - but usually this
> importance is juggled amongst voices). Typically speaking, Polyphonic music
> is contrapuntal by nature.
>
Steve, did you listen to the whole video where the second melody is
combined with the original Hello My Baby and the two are sung
together? If so, could you explain in more detail how this is
different from your definition of "polyphony".
Thanks,
LJS
Steve Latham
"LJS" <ljsc...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:12a857f4-dd36-4533-a496-
>
> Steve, did you listen to the whole video where the second melody is
> combined with the original Hello My Baby and the two are sung
> together?
Nope.
If so, could you explain in more detail how this is
> different from your definition of "polyphony".
Typically, in a homophonic setting a second melody being played against the
first is called a countermelody. The countermelody and main melody may exist
in a contrapuntal relationship though.
Steve
LJS
> "LJS" <ljsche...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:12a857f4-dd36-4533-a496-
Isn't that contrapuntal? and isn't that what happens in this tune? I
certainly, as you well know, understand homphonic and polyphonic
music. I am a bit confused as to why you feel obliged to repeat what
you have said in the prior post. Your response of nope, indicates that
you did not hear they played together and you then say that they may
exist in a contrapuntal relationship. So I assume that you are now
saying that this Descant (As I have heard this particular form of
polophony referred to many times) is indeed contrapuntal. If I am not
assuming correctly, please explain.
Thanks,
LJS
Steve Latham
> On Jun 29, 10:43 am, "Steve Latham" <llat...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> "LJS" <ljsche...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:12a857f4-dd36-4533-a496-
>>
>> > Steve, did you listen to the whole video where the second melody is
>> > combined with the original Hello My Baby and the two are sung
>> > together?
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> If so, could you explain in more detail how this is
>>
>> > different from your definition of "polyphony".
>>
>> Typically, in a homophonic setting a second melody being played against
>> the
>> first is called a countermelody. The countermelody and main melody may
>> exist
>> in a contrapuntal relationship though.
>>
>> Steve
>
> Isn't that contrapuntal? and isn't that what happens in this tune?
Yes, the two melodies are in counterpoint. That does not make the entire
musical texture contrapuntal though.
Steve
LJS
> "LJS" <ljsche...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:99d279b0-cc5e-40b0...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 29, 10:43 am, "Steve Latham" <llat...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> "LJS" <ljsche...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:12a857f4-dd36-4533-a496-
>
> >> > Steve, did you listen to the whole video where the second melody is
> >> > combined with the original Hello My Baby and the two are sung
> >> > together?
>
> >> Nope.
>
> >> If so, could you explain in more detail how this is
>
> >> > different from your definition of "polyphony".
>
> >> Typically, in a homophonic setting a second melody being played against
> >> the
> >> first is called a countermelody. The countermelody and main melody may
> >> exist
> >> in a contrapuntal relationship though.
>
> >> Steve
>
> > Isn't that contrapuntal? and isn't that what happens in this tune?
>
> Yes, the two melodies are in counterpoint. That does not make the entire
> musical texture contrapuntal though.
>
> Steve
Thank you. I never thought that it did, but I did think that the
answer to the question on this tune would have been, as you say,
contrapuntal rather than homophonic.
By the way. I have always heard this type of combination of two
melodies that shared the same changes called a "descant" when they
were sung together. I know that there are other definitions for
descant and I am wondering if this term, "descant" is old fashioned,
or a common misnomer, or what exactly would be the most correct term
to describe this set melodies and others that have the same
relationship.
Thanks in advance.
LJS
Steve Latham
No, the musical texture of the piece is homophonic. It additionally contains
a contrapuntal element - two melodies in counterpoint within a larger
homophonic texture.
Steve
LJS
If that's the way it is, then that is the way it is!! Maybe I
misunderstood the poster and thought that he was asking about the two
melodies when he said song (or was it tune) . If the fact that the
melodies are presented separately and then together, BUT they are
harmonized by the common changes means that it is homophonic, then you
are certainly right. I just had not seen that definition and I had not
thought that the poster had asked if the entire musical texture was
contrapuntal. Your attention to detail sees a more precise question
than I had remembered.
I had asked what the definition of the descant (or discant) was and I
thank you for this answer. It does, however, seem that this is more of
a definition of Homophonic Texture. And I am not sure of how this
relates to the two melodies that are sung contrapuntally within this
texture. I had not previously thought that one excluded the other and
would have thought that it was indeed exactly as you said, but that
the song in question would still be considered Contrapuntal because of
the fact that it contained counterpoint. I am a bit surprised to
discover that if you play the implied chords in back of a Bach 2 or 3
part invention that it then becomes homophonic. Well, one learns
something new every day (if we are lucky)!
Thanks
LJS
Oh yes. These are the only definitions that I found for descant. I
though that I had remembered a definition from my education classes as
we often use tunes like this in general music settings to introduce
counterpoint. The kids seem to hear the melodies over the harmony and
have no problem then with the concept of combining melodic lines. But,
then, they are only beginners. Thanks.
Descant:
a. a melody or counterpoint accompanying a simple musical theme and
usually written above it.
An ornamental melody or counterpoint sung or played above a theme.
1. (Mus.) (a) Originally, a double song; a melody or counterpoint sung
above the plain song of the tenor; a variation of an air; a variation
by ornament of the main subject or plain song. (b) The upper voice in
part music. (c) The canto, cantus, or soprano voice; the treble. --
Grove.
in the second half of the thirteenth century, from the term discantus
supra librum (Latin: descant according to the rules), a form of
Gregorian chant in which only the melody is notated but an improvised
polyphony is understood. The discantus supra librum had specific rules
governing the improvisation of the additional voicestop voice in a
polyphonic structure
in mediaeval music, the line composed against the tenor, as in the
clausula of the Parisian Notre Dame School
SleepyHead
>
> - Show quoted text -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discant & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organum
comp.
SleepyHead
Can't it be both? And if not, why not?
LJS
Of course it can and it is.
LJS
BTW, any more compositions lately?
LJS
Thanks, I had seen these already, but I still remember there being a
use of the term for songs of the nature in the post. It may just be
the usage taken from the counter melody definition applied to newer
tunes. There was a European act in the 70s, Sandler and Young that I
worked for and their conductor was named Leo de Lyon. Their act
contained many of what was called "descants" by Leo. There were some
that were not even real descants under normal circumstances, but with
really clever and precise manipulation of the music, they were made to
fit seamlessly in the act. Leo, who seemed to be one of the more
likable schizophrenics that I have met, could actually sing (more of a
hum) one melody while he was whistling the other!
But i
LJS
>
> > comp.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descant
>
> Thanks, I had seen these already, but I still remember there being a
> use of the term for songs of the nature in the post. It may just be
> the usage taken from the counter melody definition applied to newer
> tunes. There was a European act in the 70s, Sandler and Young that I
> worked for and their conductor was named Leo de Lyon. Their act
> contained many of what was called "descants" by Leo. There were some
> that were not even real descants under normal circumstances, but with
> really clever and precise manipulation of the music, they were made to
> fit seamlessly in the act. Leo, who seemed to be one of the more
> likable schizophrenics that I have met, could actually sing (more of a
> hum) one melody while he was whistling the other!
>
> But i
Sorry, the cat stepped on the computer and sent it!
But I still think that I saw the term in an Elementary Music Textbook
or two. I have not used these particular editions for quite a while,
however and I can't remember exactly which ones or the details of how
they explained. it.
Good to hear from you.
LJS
SleepyHead
Well, funny you should mention that. I've decided to try & teach
myself a little more about instrumentation and scoring so I'm working
through Adler's enormous work on the subject (along with the CDs and
workbook), as well as writing a string quartet. The quartet's very
much a work in progress at the moment - I've written most of what I
originally intended to be the 3rd movement, but I've since come to the
conclusion that I need to take it to pieces again and re-organise it
once I've written substantially more material. I expect finishing the
piece will take the best part of a year (the first time I do anything
like this it always takes an age), so by July next year I expect it'll
be mostly finished.
I'll upload some short pieces my composition teacher (now ditched I'm
sorry to say) had me write. They're not really 'complete' (except in
the sense in which they have a beginning, middle and end), but should
give you some idea what I've been up to.