music and visual art
Gary L. Daum
: I've been thinking about the similar aesthetic and emotional effects of
: music and visual art on audiences and trying to think of specific pieces
: (or movements) of music and specific works of
: visual art that touch the same nerve. I'm wondering if anyone out there has
: some good matches they'd like to share.
Without a long or involved description, I've always found Munch's "The
Scream" parallel to Schoenberg's "Pierrot Lunaire".
Gary Daum
gld...@umd5.umd.edu
richard hihn
: Gary Daum
: gld...@umd5.umd.edu
Although I think I remember seeing it on the album cover to a Russian
recording of Shostakovitch's 7th.
Dick
Bjgruber
Bonnie Gruber
Madison, Wisconsin
Bolen
d009...@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Carlos Brain) wrote:
> I've been thinking about the similar aesthetic and emotional effects of
> music and visual art on audiences and trying to think of specific pieces
> (or movements) of music and specific works of
> visual art that touch the same nerve. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love
to hear about them!
I find the fact that someone out there is interested at allin the
relation of visual and musical arts amazing. Thank You!
I have been teaching courses on this for three years now. I am
currently writing the outline for a book on the subject. If you have
looked, you will know that there is very little out there on the
relationships between the visual arts and music...
Your example would fall under the subjective category. That is, there
may be no evidence to indicate that this relationship exists to anyone but
you. Hey, thats just fine. But there are a number of other relationships
which are less subjective. If interested in my ideas......just get in
touch here or through E-mail (I'm too sleepy now).
I recently posted here for ideas on books I may have missed....Nada.
Chow,
Brad.
--
BOLEN @utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS
The More Vulgar It Is,
The Better They Like It.
.....Liberace.
Bolen
(richard hihn) wrote:
> Gary L. Daum (gld...@hamlet.umd.edu) wrote:
> : Carlos Brain (d009...@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us) wrote:
> : : I've been thinking about the similar aesthetic and emotional effects of
> : : music and visual art on audiences and trying to think of specific pieces
> : : (or movements) of music and specific works of
> : : visual art that touch the same nerve. I'm wondering if anyone out
> there
> has
> : : some good matches they'd like to share.
>
> : Without a long or involved description, I've always found Munch's "The
> : Scream" parallel to Schoenberg's "Pierrot Lunaire".
>
> : Gary Daum
> : gld...@umd5.umd.edu
>
> Although I think I remember seeing it on the album cover to a Russian
> recording of Shostakovitch's 7th.
>
> Dick
Actually, I used the Munch painting as a description of mood for Berg's
Wozzeck. The first class day I taught it I went to buy one of those
cheesy blow up 'Scream' dolls to put on the piano. That same day was the
day the Munch was stolen. Thought I had Jinxed it.
lanza
Richard than with concert music as such. The trouble with this
discussion is that, as a previous commentator has pointed out, it is
invariable subjective. Interesting, yes; but still subjective.
I mean almost any composition can suggest the *Scream* to almost
any listener, depending on their personal experiences. Admittedly,
many compositions would probably be excluded by most normative
standards. Nobody will conjure up Munch while listening to Johann
Strauss, for example. But certainly, much modern music would tend
to reflect much modern painting as well (or sculpture, etc.). I've
always felt Klee best reflected Mahler's later compositions, making
the nervous system itself the subject matter of art, as did Paul K.
--
***************************************************************
"How about it--you creeps, you lunatics, mental defectives!"
--Jack Nicholson, *One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest*
***************************************************************
Roger Lustig
In article <42i4ts$7...@saims.skidmore.edu> rh...@saims.skidmore.edu (richard hihn) writes:
>Gary L. Daum (gld...@hamlet.umd.edu) wrote:
>: Carlos Brain (d009...@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us) wrote:
>: : I've been thinking about the similar aesthetic and emotional effects of
>: : music and visual art on audiences and trying to think of specific pieces
>: : (or movements) of music and specific works of
>: : visual art that touch the same nerve. I'm wondering if anyone out
>: : there has some good matches they'd like to share.
>: Without a long or involved description, I've always found Munch's "The
>: Scream" parallel to Schoenberg's "Pierrot Lunaire".
>Although I think I remember seeing it on the album cover to a Russian
>recording of Shostakovitch's 7th.
And, in another posting...
Reply-To: bjgr...@aol.com (Bjgruber)
Munch's "The Scream" and almost any piece of hard rock music.
Bonnie Gruber
Madison, Wisconsin
Roger (Who always thinks of the painting when hearing the Pachelbel Canon..
or at least looks that way)
Gary L. Daum
: There's more relationship between Munch's *The Scream* with Little
: Richard than with concert music as such. The trouble with this
: discussion is that, as a previous commentator has pointed out, it is
: invariable subjective. Interesting, yes; but still subjective.
: I mean almost any composition can suggest the *Scream* to almost
: any listener, depending on their personal experiences.
(Material deleted, commentary related to an earlier posting of mine)
Yeah? Geeeez, it IS subjective, by golly! And yes, Pierot Lunaire
suggests "The Scream" to me. Someone asked a question, and I answered
it . . . Shall we through our subjectivities on the scales and see whose
weighs more?
Gary Daum
gld...@umd5.umd.edu
Bolen
>
> Yeah? Geeeez, it IS subjective, by golly! And yes, Pierot Lunaire
> suggests "The Scream" to me. Someone asked a question, and I answered
> it . . . Shall we through our subjectivities on the scales and see whose
> weighs more?
>
> Gary Daum
> gld...@umd5.umd.edu
So this thread is only subjective in nature? I guess any relationship
between Rachmoninov's "Isle of the Dead" and the Painting is subjective.
Or relationships between Schoenberg and Kandinsky? Or how about
Stravinky/Picasso?
Do Aesthetic relationships matter....subjective? Minimalism in the
arts? No relation there either, I suppose. Impressionsism/symbolism in
the arts?.......Nah.
Geeez, Gary. If this isn't a valid thread then you are lost.
Gary L. Daum
: >
: > Yeah? Geeeez, it IS subjective, by golly! And yes, Pierot Lunaire
: > suggests "The Scream" to me. Someone asked a question, and I answered
: > it . . . Shall we through our subjectivities on the scales and see whose
: > weighs more?
: >
: > Gary Daum
: > gld...@umd5.umd.edu
: So this thread is only subjective in nature? I guess any relationship
: between Rachmoninov's "Isle of the Dead" and the Painting is subjective.
: Or relationships between Schoenberg and Kandinsky? Or how about
: Stravinky/Picasso?
: Do Aesthetic relationships matter....subjective? Minimalism in the
: arts? No relation there either, I suppose. Impressionsism/symbolism in
: the arts?.......Nah.
: Geeez, Gary. If this isn't a valid thread then you are lost.
: Brad.
Brad, I'm afraid you're the one lost here. There's this new invention
called "reading". I suggest you try it and read my first posting on this
thread.
I was one of the original respondants who treated this thread as "valid"
in the first place by suggesting a link between the Schoenberg and the
Munch. A later poster chose to take a potshot at my suggestion by
insinuating that subjectivity rendered the question, and specifically, my
answer useless.
My reply was directed to the absurdity of that assumption.
Gary Daum
gld...@umd5.umd.edu
Michael Brooke
: Any piece that Michael Nyman has done for films by Peter Greenaway
: (Greenaway has Nyman complete the score before he starts shooting).
Not any more - their partnership split up acrimoniously over
'Prospero's Books' in 1991.
Michael
William Tsun-Yuk Hsu
>: (Greenaway has Nyman complete the score before he starts shooting).
Michael Brooke <mic...@everyman.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Not any more - their partnership split up acrimoniously over
>'Prospero's Books' in 1991.
Footnote: Greenaway has been working with Louis Andriessen, who
is much, much more interesting to me than Nyman.
Bill
David Heetderks
On 5 Sep 1995, Gary L. Daum wrote:
> Without a long or involved description, I've always found Munch's "The
> Scream" parallel to Schoenberg's "Pierrot Lunaire".
That's an interesting one. I can see some of the connections- e.g.
expressionism, over-exxagerated features, somewhat grotesque- but what
about the sense of black humor and satire that's in 'Pierrot Lunaire?' I
don't see this so much in 'the scream.' There's also a distortion of
love in Pierrot, while love doesn't seem to be as explicit a theme in the
scream. But that's just how I see it- I'd be curious if you went into
more detail on your parallel. I'm don't think exact parallels can be
made between music and painting, but they are interesting to think about.
A parallel between Stravinsky and Picasso has often been made (e.g. use
of collage, sudden shift in color- giving many views of one subject).
His rhythms and forms often remind me of cubism, too, although I
wouldn't limit Stravinsky to just one painter. A
Schoenberg-Kadinsky parallel was once suggested, but I'd dispute that
one. And of course, there's the Debussy-Monet (or Cezanne) parallel, but
I'd probably dispute that one too.
I also read one writer suggest that Messiaen was a "surrealist"
composer- through the use of odd colors, harmonizing strange melodies
with diatonic chords (i.e. approaching something unusual with a
traditional style of painting, like the strangely realistic paintings of
Dali). Messiaen himself was also fond of surrealist poetry. The opening
of the "Chant of love II" movement of the Turangalila symphony involves a
layered texture of different motifs building up- it sort of reminds me of
a surrealistic landscape- with an assortment of unrelated objects strewn
across the ground. Again, however, I wouldn't confine Messiaen to just
surrealism. In some ways he also reminds me of the engravings of William
Blake- with his optimism, brightness, and imagination.
- David H.
Bolen
David Heetderks <heet...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
> On 5 Sep 1995, Gary L. Daum wrote:
> > Without a long or involved description, I've always found Munch's "The
> > Scream" parallel to Schoenberg's "Pierrot Lunaire".
>
> That's an interesting one. I can see some of the connections- e.g.
> expressionism, over-exxagerated features, somewhat grotesque- but what
> about the sense of black humor and satire that's in 'Pierrot Lunaire?
I still like the Wozzeck/Scream combination.
> A parallel between Stravinsky and Picasso has often been made (e.g. use
> of collage, sudden shift in color- giving many views of one subject).
> His rhythms and forms often remind me of cubism, too, although I
> wouldn't limit Stravinsky to just one painter.
I agree. Read 'From Subject to Style: Stravinsky and the Painters'
by Richard Taruskin (a favorite) in "Confronting Stravinsky"
Editied by Jann Pasler.....Wonderful!!
> Schoenberg-Kadinsky parallel was once suggested, but I'd dispute that
> one.
Once? You are out to lunch on this one.
Read "Music and Abstract Painting: Kandinsky, Goethe, and Schoenberg"
By Peter Vergo.
Also, " Kandinsky and Abstraction: The role of the Hidden Image"
By Role-Carol Washton Long
(Sorry, but I only have the photo copies, and the last two are from
Periodicals which I cannot remember). Any good search tools at the
library?
There is also a nice book: "Arnold Schoenberg, Wassily Kandinsky:
Letters Pictures, and Documents"
Edited by Jelena Hahl-Koch. Published by Faber and Faber.
Also try: "Style and Idea; selected writings of Schoenberg" edited by
Leonard Stein..... Might be of some help.
And of course, there's the Debussy-Monet (or Cezanne) parallel, but
> I'd probably dispute that one too.
Why, because Debussy was a "symbolist"?
I give up.
Brad.
>
> - David H.
Lukas Andreas Schulze
> On 5 Sep 1995, Gary L. Daum wrote:
> > Without a long or involved description, I've always found Munch's "The
> > Scream" parallel to Schoenberg's "Pierrot Lunaire".
>
> That's an interesting one. I can see some of the connections- e.g.
> expressionism, over-exxagerated features, somewhat grotesque- but what
> about the sense of black humor and satire that's in 'Pierrot Lunaire?' I
> don't see this so much in 'the scream.'
The connection between music and visual art has a long history,
obviously. One of the problems in interpretation seems to me a
familiarity with the salient details of one medium and not the other--onr
might have a firm grasp of the painting, and not the music, for example.
Expressionism can be, though doesn't have to be, characterized as the
access to strong emotional states through as simple and dirct means as
possible--thus die Brucke is a more archetypal expressionist school than
die neue sachlichkiet. For many, early Schoenberg would sound
particularly brutal. They might not hear the complex traces of diatinic
harmony, or in Pierrot, the subtle touches of irony and references to
melodrama tradition. Hence to the eye and ear, Munch's textures, and
Schoenberg's music might be very congenial to one another. In fact,
Schoenberg's painting bears as close a resemblance to Munch as it does to
anyone else.
I'll toss out here the very concrete connection between various members of
the abstract expressionist painters and the New York school composers.
Rothko and Guston had an enormous influence on Feldman, and Cage has
suggested that it was the White Paintings of Rauschenberg that
gave him the courage to write 4'33''. Being as innate
reactions to these works, musical and visual, often defy explanation, it's
no surprise that a connection between the two media might be that much
more subject to intuitive and unarticulateable forces. It's a great
subject for consideration, however--
Luke
Bolen
lsch...@ucsd.edu (Lukas Andreas Schulze) wrote:
> The connection between music and visual art has a long history,
> obviously. One of the problems in interpretation seems to me a
> familiarity with the salient details of one medium and not the other--onr
> might have a firm grasp of the painting, and not the music, for example.
[...]
> Being as innate
> reactions to these works, musical and visual, often defy explanation, it's
> no surprise that a connection between the two media might be that much
> more subject to intuitive and unarticulateable forces. It's a great
> subject for consideration, however--
>
> Luke
Thanks, Luke
You are absolutely right about the problem of familiarity of BOTH
mediums being a stumbling block. But I take that a cynically in the search
for reasons for the lack of discussion on "art & music".
Actually, I am rather tired of the "excuse" of field specialization for
lack of knowledge between disciplines (any disciplines). The fact is, as
you ironically point out, that this field goes light years beyond being a
casual "subject for consideration". So rather that debate the merits of
such comparisons, I was hoping for more discussion on that which is
real....such as your comments on Cage etc. Please feel free to
elaborate!
As I mentioned earlier, Rachmoninov looked to the painting the 'Isle of
the Dead' for the composition of his tone poem. To understand the
painting brings a depth of meaning to the music and, indeed, a good bit of
understanding about what drove Rachmoninov himself. Its way beyond "this
picture reminds me of that music" etc..
I, for one, am interested in all relationships which can be documented,
or at least show a bit of responsible creativiy....subjective as that may
be. ;)
Brad.