Is it Ludwig van, Van, von or Von Beethoven?
Court Walpe
Court (jwa...@dumpster.helios.nd.edu)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Court Walpe | "Oh, Homer, why don't you pet the cat?"
Univ. of Notre Dame | "Pet the cat? What's the point?"
Notre Dame, IN 46556 | -Marge and Homer Simpson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colby Leider
>I call on the wisdom of the rec.music.classical group to answer this deep burning question for me: Is it Ludwig van, Van, von, or Von Beethoven? I've asked numerous people and gotten all four of the above responses. Please help set my mind at ease! Post is OK, but I'd prefer e-mail. Thanks a lot!
> Court (jwa...@dumpster.helios.nd.edu)
Ludwig van Beethoven.
("Viggie" fu"r short.)
colby leider
co...@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu
Richard Carnes
"of the beet field"; Beethoven's ancestors were from an area in what
is now Belgium. When Beethoven moved to Vienna it was widely assumed
that the "van" indicated noble birth, as "von" does in Austria. This
was just fine with Beethoven, who believed that he was entitled to a
place among the aristocracy on account of his talents and great
achievements. Maynard Solomon has even proposed that Beethoven had a
fantasy/delusion throughout his life that his real father was someone
more important than the alcoholic tenor from Bonn, perhaps the king of
Prussia.
The truth, however, came out in 1818 when Beethoven was involved in
litigation against his sister-in-law for the guardianship of his
nephew Karl. When Beethoven accidentally revealed that he was not of
noble birth, the case was transferred to a lower court, and he was
infuriated at being assigned to a court suitable only for "innkeepers,
cobblers and tailors", as he wrote in a letter.
Richard Carnes
Noted authority.
M. van Loon
>Ludwig van Beethoven. I think the name is of Dutch origin and means
>"of the beet field"; Beethoven's ancestors were from an area in what
After just pointing out that his name is Van Beethoven, you omit "Van".
As I am Dutch, I should now what 'beet' means. I have however no idea.
I think it's archaic. However, 'hoven' doesn't mean field exactly. It's
better to translate it with gardens (yes, it's the plural of 'hof').
Another remark: if the name Van Beethoven is used - without Ludwig, you
should write 'Van' with a capital. This is a spelling rule in Dutch as
well as in German.
Maarten van Loon
^^^
You see no capital here!
--
Maarten van Loon The easiest answers are the most
CWI, P.O.Box 4079 difficult to find
1009 AB Amsterdam ------------------------------------
email: van...@cwi.nl Not knowing Bach = not really living
Jon Conrad
>After just pointing out that his name is Van Beethoven, you omit "Van".
No, what was said that his full name is Ludwig van Beethoven. When
referring to him by surname alone, one does indeed omit the "van."
There's no "rule" about including or omitting the particle, it's
whatever custom and the person's personal preference dictate.
>Another remark: if the name Van Beethoven is used - without Ludwig, you
>should write 'Van' with a capital. This is a spelling rule in Dutch as
>well as in German.
And, more pertinently, in English too. However, in this case, if the
"Ludwig" is left out, the "van" is too, so the capitalization rule
doesn't arise.
Frederica von Stade -> Von Stade
Jose van Dam -> Van Dam
Herbert von Karajan -> Karajan
Ludwig van Beethoven -> Beethoven
Jon Alan Conrad
Iraqi_Godfather
>I call on the wisdom of the rec.music.classical group to answer this deep burning question for me: Is it Ludwig van, Van, von, or Von Beethoven? I've asked numerous people and gotten all four of the above responses. Please help set my mind at ease! Post is OK, but I'd prefer e-mail. Thanks a lot!
Hello:
As a collector of Beethoven's works, I can confidently tell
you that it is "van" ==> "fun" in German !
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Shiekh/ Aras Ezadeen Taha
An Iraqi Getting BBQed by Bush's orders !,
America should kick this SOB out of office !.
+-----------------------------------------
Senior; Computer Science | Q: Why Computer Professionals may
Texas Christian University | confuse Halloween and Christmas ?!
Box 31558, TCU, | A: Dec 25 = Oct 31
Fort Worth, Texas 76129, USA +-----------------------------------------
............................. E-MAIL: ta...@riogrande.cs.tcu.edu
Knud Knudsen
it is pronounced "fan". Not as the thing you move air with - shorter.
Knud Knudsen
ja...@max.cc.brandeis.edu
This is only half correct. It is pronounced like "f" in the Netherlands
and like "v" in Flanders (Northern Belgium)... (and by the way, Flemish
and Dutch are the same language)
Also, to add to something someone's mentioned, the place in present-day
Belgium Beethoven's grandfather moved to Bonn from, is around Mechelen,
in the Brabant.
Finally, don't know if anyone should care but I've read that an ancestress
(like, a female ancestor) of Ludwig was burnt as a witch around 1600.
M. van Loon
>No, what was said that his full name is Ludwig van Beethoven. When
>referring to him by surname alone, one does indeed omit the "van."
>There's no "rule" about including or omitting the particle, it's
>whatever custom and the person's personal preference dictate.
often omitted in Dutch. However, in our language, this is definitely
wrong. As I understand, this is allowed in English.
I wouldn't be too happy if people begin refering to me as Loon, for
my real name is Van Loon. I think you should respect names from
other languages and not - ignorant as people often are - omit a
particle that doesn't seem to have a meaning. There is an enormous
difference between being beet field or being of/from the beet fields!!!
So, though even it's allowed to omit "Van", I would plead for *not*
omitting it.
>>Another remark: if the name Van Beethoven is used - without Ludwig, you
>>should write 'Van' with a capital. This is a spelling rule in Dutch as
>>well as in German.
>And, more pertinently, in English too. However, in this case, if the
>"Ludwig" is left out, the "van" is too, so the capitalization rule
>doesn't arise.
People often make mistakes with capitals in case of "Van". So if you
don't omit it, remember writing it with a capital!
About the pronounciation: I think the 'v' in Dutch isn't pronounced
of a 'v' or an 'f' in English. It's somewhere between the 'v' and
the 'f'. These letters are pronounced in different ways, depending
on specific word. "Van" is pronounced as "ven"(??!)
Maarten
Jon Conrad
>In article <Bs9Kt...@news.udel.edu> con...@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
>>There's no "rule" about including or omitting the particle, it's
>>whatever custom and the person's personal preference dictate.
>I must admit that in case of Beethoven(!!!!!), the particle "Van" is
>often omitted in Dutch. However, in our language, this is definitely
>wrong. As I understand, this is allowed in English.
>I wouldn't be too happy if people begin refering to me as Loon, for
>my real name is Van Loon.
Fine, that's for you to decide, as I said in the bit I quoted above.
However, Beethoven himself omitted the "van" when using his surname
alone. Also this practice has been near-universal in musical circles
for a couple centuries when referring to him.
>I think you should respect names from
>other languages and not - ignorant as people often are - omit a
>particle that doesn't seem to have a meaning. There is an enormous
>difference between being beet field or being of/from the beet fields!!!
I don't omit it because I decided it didn't have a meaning. I omit it
because that was his practice and that of musicians talking about him
ever since. You may certainly make a different decision about your own
name, and I will remember to respect that.
>So, though even it's allowed to omit "Van", I would plead for *not*
>omitting it.
I think you're fighting a losing battle here.
Jon Alan Conrad