Most underrated composer?
Tony Rothman
I won't prejudice the discussion with my feelings.
Tony Rothman
Mario Taboada
Three come to mind immediately:
1. Girolamo Frescobaldi
2. Haydn
3. Bohuslav Martinu
Four more, almost immediately:
4. Hummel
5. Heitor Villa Lobos
6. Karol Szymanowski
7. Gabriel Faure
Among these there is one (your guess) who, in my opinion, is the
greatest composer of all time. So much for ratings.
Last but not least, people have said terrible things about Tchaikovsky.
It almost seems to be a guilty pleasure to like his music. Need I say
that I don't have much faith in music critics?
Best regards,
Mario Taboada
Los Angeles
Dan Koren
>trot...@cfa0.harvard.edu (Tony Rothman) writes:
>
>>So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
>>I won't prejudice the discussion with my feelings.
>>Tony Rothman
>
>Three come to mind immediately:
>
> 1. Girolamo Frescobaldi
Hear, hear! You have thereby expiated your sin of liking Kempff!
;-))
> 2. Haydn
> 3. Bohuslav Martinu
>
>Four more, almost immediately:
>
> 4. Hummel
> 5. Heitor Villa Lobos
> 6. Karol Szymanowski
> 7. Gabriel Faure
>
>Among these there is one (your guess) who, in my opinion, is the
>greatest composer of all time. So much for ratings.
Shall we start the Music Underdogs' Club? ;-))
My nominations go to:
Albeniz
Chopin
Debussy
Dvorak
Evans
Franck
Frescobaldi
Glinka
Godowsky
Janacek
Liszt
Monk
Puccini
Respighi
Rimsky-Korsakov
Sibelius
Skryabin
Szymanowski
Tatum
Jim Clow
And finally, without comment:
8. Sir Michael Tippett
Jim Clow
Anthony Morton
>
>Last but not least, people have said terrible things about Tchaikovsky.
>It almost seems to be a guilty pleasure to like his music. Need I say
>that I don't have much faith in music critics?
>
most of the East European romantic/nationalist school. My most recent
discovery in this style is Erno Dohnanyi. He may have been a little behind
the times, but his music moves me nevertheless.
For a post-romantic addition to Mario's list, my vote goes to Aram
Khachaturian.
Just my 2 cents worth....
Tony Morton
University of Melbourne, Australia
Dan Koren
>In article <2tlo1t$e...@mtha.usc.edu> tab...@mtha.usc.edu (Mario Taboada) writes:
>>trot...@cfa0.harvard.edu (Tony Rothman) writes:
>>
>>>So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
>>>I won't prejudice the discussion with my feelings.
>>>Tony Rothman
>
>
>My nominations go to:
>
> Albeniz
> Chopin
> Debussy
> Dvorak
> Evans
> Franck
> Frescobaldi
> Glinka
> Godowsky
> Janacek
> Liszt
> Monk
> Puccini
> Respighi
> Rimsky-Korsakov
> Sibelius
> Skryabin
> Szymanowski
> Tatum
To which I would add (after dinner!):
Arensky
Arriaga
Baczewicz
Balakirev
Benda
Bellini
Berwald
Bizet
Bloch
Boccherini
Boito
Borodin
Bruch
Canteloube
Cererols
Chaminade
Chausson
Cherubini
Cuclin
Donizetti
Dukas
De Falla
Fux
Gade
Garoto
Glazunov
Gliere
Gorczycki
Granados
Herrmann
Ibert
d'Indy
Klemperer
Korngold
Lalo
Lekeu
Leoncavallo
Liadov
Lyapunov
Magnard
Martin
Mascagni
Milhaud
Moscheles
Moszkowski
Pabst
Paganini
Pasternak
Pergolesi
Poulenc
Prokofiev
Roussel
Rubinstein
Saint-Saens
Sarasate
Scarlatti
Schnabel
Schulz-Evler
Skalkottas
Smetana
Spohr
Takemitsu
Taneyev
Tausig
Ullmann
Vieuxtemps
Waxman
Weber
Weill
Wieniawski
Wolf
Ysaye
dk
Ole Villumsen
a recapitulation: IMO, the Bohemian baroque master Jan Dismas Zelenka,
1679 - 1745.
Ole
Lyle K. Neff
Anthony Morton <amo...@ee.mu.OZ.AU> wrote:
>Well said. I'm also a fan of (much of) Tchaikovsky's work, as well as of
>most of the East European romantic/nationalist school. My most recent
>discovery in this style is Erno Dohnanyi.
What is "the East European romantic/nationalist school" and it's "style"?
I have always been under the impression that, if there be any validity
in naming "schools", the eastern Europeans developed several different
"schools" and "styles" of composition in the 19th-early 20th centuries,
not only in different countries but even within the same country (e.g.
Russia).
Besides, the above quote implies that there is "the West-European
romantic/nationalist school" with it's "style", a concept that suggests
the same problems -- except, perhaps, in a "global" view of music which
overlooks details at a certain level. Just a thought.
As for Pyotr Ilich, I used to like his music better, and I still like his
opera "Cherevichky", but not much else any more. My disinclination does
not stem from any "pressure" *not* to like him, though. He's a more
effective and interesting orchestrator than Cui, I'll give him that. :)
Poka!
--
Lyle Neff, ln...@ucs.indiana.edu
fehs...@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com
I'll add to the list some of my favorite relatively obscure Russians:
Miaskovsky
Rubinstein
Kalinnikov
and a few neglected Scandinavians:
Stenhammar
Madetoja
Palmgren
len.
R. Wilmer
>
>>So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
>
> 2. Haydn
> 3. Bohuslav Martinu
>
> 5. Heitor Villa Lobos
> 6. Karol Szymanowski
> 7. Gabriel Faure
>
>Among these there is one (your guess) who, in my opinion, is the
>greatest composer of all time.
I like all seven on your list. My guess for greatest is Haydn.
What an amazing achievement his 100 plus symphonies is! Recently
I listened to the first 30 (having always admired the last 13 and
Trauer and Farewell). The body of work bursts with genius and
originality. Three I particularly liked were ``Le Philosophe'',
No. 4 with its spooky syncopated slow movement, and ``Le Soir'' (not
at all the peaceful music I expected, but a very lively evening
indeed--more like a ``Soiree''). So many surprises in his
works from the very beginning. And then all those beautiful string
quartets! And that vast body of little-known wonderful piano
sonatas. The reviewer Schonberg wrote of Haydn that nothing
he wrote in his last twenty years was anything but a masterpiece.
But I have been astonished to find how many of his earlier works
are masterpieces too.
By the way among my candidates for most underrated are Reynaldo Hahn,
Andre Messager, and Pacini. Perhaps also Stephen Sondheim, in that
his place among great composers in not often considered (although
it certainly seemed to be at the Tony awards). And Rimsky-Korsakov--at
least as an opera composer. Again. though, I
see your point about Haydn: you could rate him very high and
still underrate him.
>Last but not least, people have said terrible things about Tchaikovsky.
>It almost seems to be a guilty pleasure to like his music.
Good point! I hope you achieve guilt-free Tchaikovsky admiration.
Anyway, the continuing tremendous success of Nutcracker, Swan Lake,
and Sleeping Beauty should make Tchaikovsky lovers feel better.
R. Wilmer
>>trot...@cfa0.harvard.edu (Tony Rothman) writes:
>>
>>>So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
>
>
> Albeniz
> Chopin
> Debussy
> Dvorak
> Evans
> Franck
> Frescobaldi
> Glinka
> Godowsky
> Janacek
> Liszt
> Monk
> Puccini
> Respighi
> Rimsky-Korsakov
> Sibelius
> Skryabin
> Szymanowski
> Tatum
>
is one of the great successes of the twentieth century. Not only
have Boheme and Tosca and Butterfly been among the most popular
(short list) works in the opera repertory--without *ever* declining
in popularity, but Turandot, Manon Lescaut, Le Villi, Fanciulla,
and Trittico continue to gain in popularity. Even La Rondine
is done. Only Edgar seems to languish in obscurity.
Now in Puccini's lifetime, other composers were jealous of Puccini's
success, and critics thought that the works would not last. They
certainly have been proved wrong, but I don't think that musicians or
music writers today are still holding out against Puccini. Do
you think they are? Do you think Puccini should be more popular?
How could he be?
Now what about Debussy? It seems to me he is very highly rated
by critics, musicians, and audiences. Indeed you could make
a case that no composer ever wrote better for voice, orchestra, and
the modern piano. Indeed, when I was in France I thought that
current opinion of Gounod, Faure, Duparc, Massenet, and Bizet
was so overwhelmed by the esteem for Debussy that they
were unfairly underrated in comparison.
In any case I don't see much of Puccini's or Debussy's work suffering
neglect. (Or is mentioning them a way of getting back to
Beethoven-bashing and saying again that the German influenced school
is *overrated*).
Richard
bett...@cnsvax.uwec.edu
Good Lord, our lists are getting a bit long, aren't they? I agree with
Tchaikovsky (stated long ago), and at the risk of eternalizing this list, may I
add Giacomo Carissimi, Claudio Monteverdi (still not fully appreciated), and
Ralph Vaughan Williams (especially his choral music--gorgeous!)
Eric Betthauser
University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire
off for the summer
R. Wilmer
>In article <dkCrFA...@netcom.com> d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) writes:
>>In article <2tlo1t$e...@mtha.usc.edu> tab...@mtha.usc.edu (Mario Taboada) writes:
>>>trot...@cfa0.harvard.edu (Tony Rothman) writes:
>>>
>>>>So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
>To which I would add (after dinner!):
I like that list. Indeed better than the one with Puccini and Debussy.
I have to admit that there are about 10 people on your list whose
music I have never heard (or at least I didn't realize who wrote it
when I heard it).
Above all, I agree that Roussel is underrated--so much of his excellent works
almost never performed. And there are certainly rarely done Bellini
and Donizetti operas that are as good as those composers' acknowledged
masterpieces.
It's good to see someone speak up for Benda and Lekeu. (Actually
there were a bunch of Bendas, like the Bachs).
Two on your list whose music I find boring are Glazunov and Gliere,
although they did have their moments. I think the best thing
Glazunov ever did is his reconstruction work on Prince Igor.
Boito puzzles me on your list. Are you a fan of Nerone? I saw
the Amato company do that and did like the work. But I do think
that Mefistofele is rated well and deserves to be. I don't
think Boito is one of the top opera composers, however.
Same story with Canteloube. His songs of the Auvergne are popular,
but did he write anything else of value. If so, you're right, he
should be on your list.
Now three composers on your list are rated correctly in my opinion as
minor composers and therefore I would not consider them underrated:
Granados, Spohr, and Wieniawski. One, in
my opinion, is even overrated: Vieuxtemps--truly mediocre music that
violinists trot out for reasons unfathomable to me. Do you
really like that stuff? Why? I recommend ditching the four
I have mentioned in this paragraph and putting in Von Suppe instead.
And what about Balfe? Or Flotow?
Richard
R. Wilmer
THERE HE IS!!! I knew there was some underrated composer I was
missing. Yes! Cesar Cui. Revive his Angelo!!! Improve his
status within the Russian five!.
Love this topic. Just shook out Ambroise Thomas from my mental
cobwebs. He wrote a beautiful score for Psyche. Also a Songe d'une Nuit d'Ete
and Francoise de Rimini. Nadia Boulanger thought Hamlet was
one of the most perfectly composed operas (although I'm not
sure that she actually *liked* the work; I do) and had her
opera writing students (Copland, Thompson, Glass, etc.) study it.
And did von Stade ever record Mignon? Quickly make sure she
does (Horne sings too heavily in the part.)
Richard
Deryk Barker
[...]
: Good Lord, our lists are getting a bit long, aren't they? I agree with
: Tchaikovsky (stated long ago), and at the risk of eternalizing this list, may I
: add Giacomo Carissimi, Claudio Monteverdi (still not fully appreciated), and
: Ralph Vaughan Williams (especially his choral music--gorgeous!)
I'd go along with RVW, and is it my imagination or has nobody
nominated Busoni, Sorabji and Stevenson yet?
--
Deryk.
=================================================================
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Without music, life |
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada | would be a mistake |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | |
|phone: +1 604 370 4452 | (Friedrich Nietzsche).|
=================================================================
Tom Wood
> I like all seven on your list. My guess for greatest is Haydn.
> What an amazing achievement his 100 plus symphonies is! Recently
> I listened to the first 30 (having always admired the last 13 and
> Trauer and Farewell). The body of work bursts with genius and
> originality. Three I particularly liked were ``Le Philosophe'',
> No. 4 with its spooky syncopated slow movement, and ``Le Soir'' (not
> at all the peaceful music I expected, but a very lively evening
> indeed--more like a ``Soiree''). So many surprises in his
> works from the very beginning. And then all those beautiful string
> quartets! And that vast body of little-known wonderful piano
> sonatas. The reviewer Schonberg wrote of Haydn that nothing
> he wrote in his last twenty years was anything but a masterpiece.
> But I have been astonished to find how many of his earlier works
> are masterpieces too.
I agree with everything you said about Haydn. But is he really underrated?
I think musicologists and music historians give him his full due. But
classical-music-lovers seem to overlook him. Recently I dropped by
my local Best Buys, that has a fair (at best) classical selection.
They had about 100 Mozart titles, but only 5 by Haydn.
I think it might be more accurate to say Haydn is "underappreciated."
I suspect his prolificity makes him suspect. No one can believe that
anyone could write such an "embarrassment of riches."
BTW: I find the more people know about music, the more they seem to
like Haydn.
--
tw
Lyle K. Neff
>THERE HE IS!!! I knew there was some underrated composer I was
>missing. Yes! Cesar Cui. Revive his Angelo!!! Improve his
>status within the Russian five!.
I myself would prefer to revive "William Ratcliff"; at the very least
it is MUCH shorter than "Angelo", which I admit I have not studied
enough compared to "W.R." In either case, however, if you want a
revival, you'd have to scrounge up a full score. At least parts of the
full score of "Angelo", if not also of "W.R.", are supposed to be in
the Rossiiskaia national'naia biblioteka (the introduction in score was
published by Bessel). The published vocal score of "W.R." does at
least have instrumental markings, so a reasonable reconstruction of
the score could be made, using Rimsky-Korsakov's review of the original
production (1869) as a guide.
His short operas, like "Mademoiselle Fifi" and "Feast in Time of
Plague", are more easily "revivable", especially in studio-opera
situations. And his children's operas, like "Little Red Riding-Hood",
can be perfectly charming. The full-length opera which seems to have
gotten the most productions in his lifetime was "Prisoner of the
Caucasus", which is fairly conventional operatic fare by mid-to-late
19th-century standards, but might appeal to audiences who today are
used to that in the "standard" repertory.
I myself would love to see or at least hear on recording (you can
grasp only so much with just the vocal score) his last full-length
opera, "The Captain's Daughter" (ca. 1910). It's got its flaws (like
lack of musical continuity for one, and a forced apotheosis at the end
with a big polonaise scene in Catherine II's court), but there's some
wonderfully slushy music scattered throughout, as well as some rather
convincing (for Cui) "Russian" style; and the first act is very good.
I could go on, but I don't want to BORE anyone... :)
--
Lyle Neff, ln...@ucs.indiana.edu
Joshua Kosman
: So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
Gad, all these voluminous lists and my candidate doesn't rate a mention:
Heinrich Schu"tz, still the greatest composer whose name is completely
unknown to the average concertgoing public. Except for a few old
out-of-print Nonesuch LPs, his music is woefully underrepresented on
record and all too rarely performed. He can't even get his due on
centenary years (b. 1585) because he gets crowded out by bully boys like
Bach, Handel, Scarlatti and Berg. Bah.
== Joshua
Dan Koren
It's nice to get some support once in a while. :-)
>I have to admit that there are about 10 people on your list whose
>music I have never heard (or at least I didn't realize who wrote it
>when I heard it).
>
>Above all, I agree that Roussel is underrated--so much of his excellent works
>almost never performed. And there are certainly rarely done Bellini
>and Donizetti operas that are as good as those composers' acknowledged
>masterpieces.
>
>It's good to see someone speak up for Benda and Lekeu. (Actually
>there were a bunch of Bendas, like the Bachs).
>
>Two on your list whose music I find boring are Glazunov and Gliere,
The Glazunov concerti and symphonies are great.
>although they did have their moments. I think the best thing
>Glazunov ever did is his reconstruction work on Prince Igor.
>
>Boito puzzles me on your list. Are you a fan of Nerone? I saw
>the Amato company do that and did like the work. But I do think
>that Mefistofele is rated well and deserves to be. I don't
Mefistofele is a great opera.
>think Boito is one of the top opera composers, however.
>Same story with Canteloube. His songs of the Auvergne are popular,
>but did he write anything else of value. If so, you're right, he
>should be on your list.
I would disagree to that view. A masterpiece is a masterpiece is a
masterpiece.
>Now three composers on your list are rated correctly in my opinion as
>minor composers and therefore I would not consider them underrated:
>Granados, Spohr, and Wieniawski. One, in my opinion, is even overrated:
Granados wrote some of the greatest music for piano. No one who has heard
his Goyescas would think otherwise.
>Vieuxtemps--truly mediocre music that violinists trot out for reasons
>unfathomable to me.
Doesn't that tell you something?
>Do you really like that stuff? Why? I recommend ditching the four
>I have mentioned in this paragraph and putting in Von Suppe instead.
Vons and vans are by definition overrated. Rule of the house! ;-))
dk
Stevan Apter
>bett...@cnsvax.uwec.edu wrote:
>[...]
>: Good Lord, our lists are getting a bit long, aren't they? I agree with
>: Tchaikovsky (stated long ago), and at the risk of eternalizing this list, may I
>: add Giacomo Carissimi, Claudio Monteverdi (still not fully appreciated), and
>: Ralph Vaughan Williams (especially his choral music--gorgeous!)
>
>I'd go along with RVW, and is it my imagination or has nobody
>nominated Busoni, Sorabji and Stevenson yet?
Well, just imagine walking into your local Gap and hearing OC.
R. Wilmer
>In article <2tnaiu$9...@linus.mitre.org>, R. Wilmer <rwilmer@zinka> wrote:
>
>>THERE HE IS!!! I knew there was some underrated composer I was
>>missing. Yes! Cesar Cui. Revive his Angelo!!! Improve his
>>status within the Russian five!.
>
>I myself would prefer to revive "William Ratcliff"; at the very least
>it is MUCH shorter than "Angelo", which I admit I have not studied
>enough compared to "W.R." In either case, however, if you want a
>revival, you'd have to scrounge up a full score.
[There follows description of the status of Cui operas.]
>
>I could go on, but I don't want to BORE anyone... :)
>
>
You certainly are not boring me. If you can go on, please do.
Thank you for such a thorough consideration of Cui. I hear his
music only rarely, but when I do, I like it very much and
feel that dismissive writings about it are unjust.
Richard
Tony Rothman
especially in regard to 2, not to mention 3 and 6.
Tony Rothman
Alexander Katsman
>So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
>I won't prejudice the discussion with my feelings.
neither shall I then.
>Tony Rothman
>
.sasha
Stevan Apter
Gee, there's lots of Schutz on CD. Schreir's _Symphonia Sacrae_ I/II on
Capriccio, and Bernius has been generating some wonderful performances
for Sony. Even the Helmuth Rilling recordings, which appeared on Nonesuch
back in the 60's, are once again available, although you'll have to travel
to Tokyo to find them. ;-(
Is there anything which isn't available now in at least one performance?
Otherwise, I agree that it's always fun to observe people hearing Schutz
for the first time.
>
>== Joshua
Stevan Apter
>In article <2tn9pn$8...@linus.mitre.org> rwilmer@zinka (R. Wilmer) writes:
>>In article <dkCrFI...@netcom.com> d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) writes:
>>
>> >To which I would add (after dinner!):
>> >
>> > Arensky
>> > Arriaga
>> > Baczewicz
>> > Balakirev
>> > Benda
>> > Bellini
>> > Berwald
>> > Bizet
>> > Bloch
>> > Boccherini
>> > Boito
>> > Borodin
>> > Bruch
>> > Canteloube
>> > Cererols
>> > Chaminade
No kidding! Well, if you're not embarrassed to admit it, neither am I.
Peter Jacobs' vol. 2 has just appeared!!
>> > Chausson
>> > Cherubini
>> > Cuclin
Who?
>> > Donizetti
>> > Dukas
>> > De Falla
>> > Fux
>> > Gade
>> > Garoto
Who?
Go Dan!
>> > Schulz-Evler
Who?
>> > Skalkottas
>> > Smetana
>> > Spohr
>> > Takemitsu
>> > Taneyev
>> > Tausig
>> > Ullmann
>> > Vieuxtemps
>> > Waxman
>> > Weber
>> > Weill
>> > Wieniawski
>> > Wolf
>> > Ysaye
>>
What? No Alkan?
Not to mention:
Cyril Scott
Casella
Foulds
Berners
Wordsworth
Norgard
Ornstein
Hartmann
Grainger
Tischenko
Vierne
Tournemire
Wyschnegradsky
Thommessen
Rautavaara
Karg-Elert
R Murray Schaefer
Langgaard
Mark Slagle
>>> trot...@cfa0.harvard.edu (Tony Rothman) writes:
>> My nominations go to:
I have heard notions expressed to the effect that Puccini is
somewhat facile and/or vulgar (i.e. his popularity is apparently
taken as a strike against him). Always seemed a bit catty to me,
and I accept such expression as data more relevant to the critic
than to Puccini. Happily I've managed to avoid allowing such
notions to interfere with my enjoyment of the music. I like it a
lot.
=Mark
--
----
Mark E. Slagle PO Box 61059
sla...@lmsc.lockheed.com Sunnyvale, CA 94088
408-756-0895 USA
Joshua Kosman
: Gee, there's lots of Schutz on CD. Schreir's _Symphonia Sacrae_ I/II on
: Capriccio, and Bernius has been generating some wonderful performances
: for Sony. Even the Helmuth Rilling recordings, which appeared on Nonesuch
: back in the 60's, are once again available, although you'll have to travel
: to Tokyo to find them. ;-(
: Is there anything which isn't available now in at least one performance?
The Capriccio recordings of the Symphoniae Sacrae have some good singing
and they're complete, which is a big plus; but some of it is so-so --
particularly the boys choir; oh brother.
I'm not aware of a complete recording of the Geistliche Chormusik, which
is what I would most pine for. Are you?
== Joshua
PF9
writes:
And how about Chopin? He's OVERrated, if anything. And he certainly
suffers form no neglect.
PF9
bett...@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
These lists have become lists of favorites. Many of these composers
are regulars in the standard rep. Certainly not neglected or
underrated.
In any case, I say:
1. Bruckner (He's close to climbing out of this catagory, but the
ridiculous criticisms of Hanslick continue to plague him to this
day.)
2. Harry Partch
3. Havergal Brian
4. Carl Nielsen
Tony Rothman
isn't played. Do you know his early opera the
Oprichnick? How well it works on stage is anyone's
guess, since I doubt it's been staged except in
Siberia in the last century, but bar for bar has
more melodies than just about any opera I can
think of.
TR
Lyle K. Neff
>You certainly are not boring me. If you can go on, please do.
>Thank you for such a thorough consideration of Cui. I hear his
>music only rarely, but when I do, I like it very much and
>feel that dismissive writings about it are unjust.
>
>Richard
Here is something that I posted last November on CLASSM-L, slightly revised
here:
>I'll bite this time. Tell us about this most obscure of the mighty five.
Well, if you *insist*, although I have spewed forth on the subject somewhat
in earlier postings on the list, though not in the manner of an extended,
thoughtful critico-musico-bio-evaluation. But don't expect one now, either.
Besides, you may have bit off more than you can regurgitate.
:)
Cesar Antonovich Cui has the dubious honor of being the least known (and,
therefore, the least as far as history is concerned) of the "Moguchaya
Kuchka" ["mighty heap"], that circle of composers begun in the mid 1850's
in St. Petersburg and headed by Balakirev (as musical leader) and Stasov
(as propagandist, the "sixth" member of the "five", as it were). If you
can't remember who the "five" were, they were Balakirev, Borodin, Cui,
Musorgsky, and Rimsky-Korsakov -- "babocumuri" in mnemonic terms (or
"babocumurist", to add Stasov, but that sounds like a practitioner of an
obscure tribal form of worship).
Cui's father, Antoine (the family name at one time used to be spelled
"Queuille"), settled in Vilnius, Lithuania after arriving as part of
Napoleon's invading army. He married a local named Julia Gucewicz, with
whom he had five children. The sons were named after great military men
(Cesar, Alexander, Napoleon; the other son was named Boleslav -- was that a
famous military man? Their daughter was Marianna). Antoine made a living by
teaching, and became a Russian citizen; eventually the family entered the
nobility. Yet they had not a drop of Russian blood, of course (even a
transfusion wouldn't have helped make Cesar's music sound more Russian, I
dare say), although, I would assume from Mrs. Cui's maiden name and their
residence in Lithuania that there is some Polish blood (a possibility which
doesn't prove anything musically, of course, because even the really
Russian composers wrote some music in Polish styles and genres).
Little Cesar was born in 1835. He was not, apparently, a child prodigy. His
sister started his music lessons; then his father sent him to a violinist
named Dio (sp?) to learn music. Then, when the Polish composer Moniuszko
came to town to stay for a while, Cesar had composition lessons with him.
All too soon, however, the adolescent Cesar had to go to military
engineering school in Petersburg. (This was around age 15 or so -- sorry I
don't have exact dates with me at this time.)
And that's where he met Balakirev, and eventually the rest of the "guys".
At engineering school he also came to know Viktor Krylov, who wrote Cui's
first few opera libretti and song texts. The now not-so-little Cesar was
writing music under Balakirev's tutelage, visiting the opera, and learning
to be a military engineer. He was graduated and eventually became a
professor of fortifications (his final rank, I think, was general). He
married a woman by the name of Malvina Bamberg, to whom he dedicated his
first numbered opus, a Scherzo for piano/4-hands (later orchestrated) on
the themes B.A.B.E.G (i.e. BAmBErG) and C.C. (guess whose initials *those*
are), from 1857. She died in 1899, I believe. Their daughter, Lidia,
married a certain Mr. Amoretti. They had at least one son as well, but I
don't recall his name; I recall only that Cui dedicated several of his
songs "to my son".
Grown-up Cesar became one of the main spokesmen for the "new Russian
school" fostered by the Handful (the other spokesman being Stasov). He
published his reviews and views fairly regularly from 1859 to the end of
the century in various domestic and foreign newspapers and journals,
participating in some heated propaganda skirmishes, especially in the early
years. His by-line for a long time was "***". He even made a scathing
review of the first production of "Boris Godunov" (which I have yet to
read, shame on me). There is a parody cartoon from some publication during
his life with the caption in Latin: "Cesar Cui, we who are about to die
salute you."
Several of his some 800 or so articles were collected into books ("La
Musique en Russie", "The Ring of the Nibelungs", "Russian Art Song",
etc.), of which only the last, to my knowledge, has been translated into
English. (He also wrote books and textbooks on fortification
-- quelle surprise!) He wrote musico-critical articles only
occasionally after the turn of the century, by which time he could not
stand the "modernists" or "futurists", as he called them -- people
like Debussy, R. Strauss, D'Indy (I think). One of his letters is a
brief song with the text: "He loves me no longer; he's fallen in love
with Strauss!" His penultimate musico-critical article was a song
entitled "Hymn to Futurism"; his last article was a list of
instructions on how to compose in the new, modern way. And one of his
late piano pieces is entitled "Reverie d'un faune apres la lecture de
son journal", in obvious homage, so to speak, to Debussy. So much for
Cui the critic. (I don't mean to dismiss this aspect so callously, but
I have not read enough of his criticism to even pretend to make my own
judgment a fair one.) Besides a selection of musico-critical articles,
a sampling of his letters was published in the 50's. My favorite quote
from his letters is "A libretto, a libretto, my kingdom for a
libretto!"
As to Cui the composer, we could simply say that some people have to work
hard to be mediocre. But, let's not. He was a terribly prolific composer
(especially compared to his compatriots Balakirev, Borodin, and Musorgsky),
as his publishers could no doubt confirm. He completed some 14 operas,
including 4 children's operas and several one-act "adult" operas; he also
made the first completed version of Musorgsky's "Fair at Sorochinsk"
(1917). (Apparently, despite his review of "Boris", he championed
Musorgsky's music.) He wrote several hundred songs (in Russian, French,
Polish, and German), many piano pieces and chamber works, including 3
string quartets, several orchestral works (mostly light music -- suites,
waltzes, scherzos), and many choral works, including a cantata for the
300th anniversary of the Romanov dynasty (1913). The war years (i.e. the
Russo-Japanese War, ca. 1905, and WWI) inspired a number of works by Cui,
mostly songs and a military march for band. There is even some religious
music: 3 psalms, a couple of Ave Marias, and an Orthodox setting of the
Magnificat (Cui was Catholic, by the way, if I'm not mistaken; at least his
parents were). But he is best known as a miniaturist in songs and piano
music; these are the kinds of pieces that tend to be reprinted or recorded,
if at all. Many of you may be familiar with his notorious "Orientale" (op.
50, no. 9, originally for violin & piano), which has been transcribed for
everything from piano duet to Hawaiian guitar. Please become *un*familiar
with that piece, if you don't mind.
The first opera of the Kuchka to be performed was his "William Ratcliff"
(or, as stressed in the Russian, Vil-YAM Rat-KLIFF), based on Pleshcheev's
translation of Heine's tragedy, performed in 1869. Although it was praised
by the "gang", the opera never gained a foothold in the repertory and was
not revived until around 1900. His next-performed opera, "Angelo", from the
'70s, was also revived around 1900. (It's premiere took five hours!)
In these two works Cui tried to follow the guidelines of the new Russian
school with regard to realistic setting of Russian text and so on (as was
being attempted ever so judiciously by Dargomyzhsky in "The Stone Guest",
which Cui helped to complete), but did not necessarily succeed. These
operas certainly did not use Russian subject-matter, and Cui's style even
in those with Russian subjects in general avoids Russian folk- or other
idiom, and does not resemble that of his compatriots. Even his
first-composed opera, "The Prisoner of the Caucasus" (not performed until
1883), which has a lead Russian character among the dramatis personae, does
little better than to employ a smidgeon of the expected pseudo-orientalism
(because of the setting) that was all too common, and no "Russian" style,
per se. (Cui's style has generally been linked with Auber, Meyerbeer, with
maybe a little Schumann. Lyricism in the operas prevails often at the
expense of drama; but it is very beautiful lyricism, IMHO.)
His last large opera, "The Captain's Daughter", probably employs as much
truly Russian-style music as Cui could ever hope to achieve. He even
admitted in a letter (quoted in New Grove) that he was incapable of writing
a truly Russian opera; so I don't hold his non-Russianness in style against
him, even in the operas set in Russia. After all, his music can be
legitimately criticized on other grounds. (I wonder, though, if he ever
considered writing an opera on a Polish or Lithuanian subject.)
In the early 1870's Cui wrote the first act for the collective (and
aborted) project "Mlada" (later composed complete by Rimsky-Korsakov -- and
a gorgeous work, by the way). Cui later published the score, with some
slight changes, in 1911, dedicating it to the late Rimsky, Borodin, and
Musorgsky. It is a slight, and I mean *slight*, oeuvre.
The other operas are dominated by French sources: "The Saracen" (from
Dumas' "Charles VII chez ses grands vassaux"), "Le Flibustier" (set to
Richepin's adaptation of his comedy, and received miserably at the Opera
Comique in 1894), "Matteo Falcone" (after Merimee and Zhukovsky),
"Mademoiselle Fifi" (after Maupassant's story and Metenier's play), and
"Little Red Riding-Hood" and "Puss-in-Boots" (after Perrault). "Fifi"
(1903) became widely popular in the empire during World War I, no doubt due
to its subject matter (the Franco-Prussian war). It's my favorite of the
one-act operas, although I'm disappointed that Cui left out this particular
line in the dialogue spoken by one of the, ahem, ladies: "I'm Eva, the
Tomato". Perhaps it wouldn't have been acceptable to the opera censors.
His operas based on Pushkin are "Feast in Time of Plague" (which is one of
the "Little Tragedies" of Pushkin along with "The Covetous Knight" [set by
Rachmaninoff], "The Stone Guest" [Dargomyzhsky], and "Mozart and Salieri"
[Rimsky-Korsakov]), and the above-mentioned "Prisoner of the Caucasus" and
"The Captain's Daughter. "Prisoner" was perhaps the most popular of his
large-scale operas, having apparently the most productions. (In contrast, a
recent dictionary of opera calls "William Ratcliff" his most successful
work -- a misleading adjective, given the meaning of "success" in our
culture.)
His second-written opera, "The Mandarin's Son", a comic opera in one act,
though produced several times, is regrettable -- but still could be made
use of in studio opera classes. The other children's operas are based on
Russian fairy tales: "The Snow Hero" and "Ivan the Fool".
All the operas except "Flibustier" were composed to Russian libretti.
"Prisoner" was performed in Liege in 1886 (in French), with the help of La
Comtesse de Mercy-Argenteau, who did a lot for the awareness of Russian
music in the west. "Flibustier" was performed in Russian at the Moscow
Conservatory in 1908 under the title "By the Sea".
Two of the children's operas were republished during the Soviet era with
new, more "acceptable" libretti, and one of those ("Puss-in-Boots") was
performed in Dresden and Weimar some years ago (in 1982, I think). But
other than that, I know of no operas, especially the "adult" ones, that
have been performed since Cui's death (1918).
Late in his life Cui became very interested in writing music for children,
and became associated with a teacher named Nadezhda Dolomanova in this
regard. The children's operas were mentioned earlier; these are meant for
children to perform, not merely to watch. Several of his opus numbers
contain only children's songs. Already one of his early collections of
songs, op. 15 ("13 Musical Pictures", from 1877-1878), seems to have
pointed in this direction, and was dedicated to his daughter, Lidia.
In the last couple decades of his life Cui wrote a prolific amount of music
(perhaps that's because of retirement and dropping the journalistic
career), especially songs and piano pieces. He was involved with the Kerzin
circle of music-lovers; and there were at least two jubilees in his honor:
one in 1894 (25 years after "Ratcliff") and one around 1909 (40 years). He
became blind a year or so before his death. (No, I'm *not* going to stretch
credibility by comparing him to Bach! But it's a nice thought.) Then came
death and peaceful relative obscurity -- unless somebody does something
serious about that. The end.
Now, was that recounting sufficiently scatter-brained enough?
If any of you read Russian, the only full-length biography of Cui is the
following: A. F. Nazarov. "Tsezar Antonovich Kiui". Moskva : Muzyka, 1989.
It is part of the popular-style biography series "Russkie i sovetskie
kompozitory". La Comtesse de Mercy-Argenteau published her biography of Cui
in the late 1880's, and Stasov wrote a sketch of his life for the 1894
jubilee.
--
Lyle Neff, ln...@ucs.indiana.edu
Peter Herweijer
>I agree with everything you said about Haydn. But is he really underrated?
>I think musicologists and music historians give him his full due.
Let's say that musicologists and music historians are starting to
recognize his stature. But his full due? Until the moment that
Haydn's piano sonatas are mentioned in the same breath as Beethoven's---
despite the completely different musical world they inhabit!---he
remains underrated. Ditto, to a lesser extent, for the string quartets.
Keller is (or was?) one of the few to fully appreciate Haydn's quartets.
>But classical-music-lovers seem to overlook him.
True, although that, too, seems to be changing. Although I must
add that I sometimes wonder whether people and radio stations are
rediscovering Haydn the pretty easy-listening musical wallpaper or
Haydn the genius composer.
- Peter Herweijer
pie...@sci.kun.nl
Peter Herweijer
>trot...@cfa0.harvard.edu (Tony Rothman) writes:
>>So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
>
>Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
Sorry, but we were talking about *under*rated composers.
;^>
- Peter Herweijer
pie...@sci.kun.nl
Stevan Apter
>Stevan Apter (ap...@fid.morgan.com) wrote:
>
>: Gee, there's lots of Schutz on CD. Schreir's _Symphonia Sacrae_ I/II on
>: Capriccio, and Bernius has been generating some wonderful performances
>: for Sony. Even the Helmuth Rilling recordings, which appeared on Nonesuch
>: back in the 60's, are once again available, although you'll have to travel
>: to Tokyo to find them. ;-(
>
>: Is there anything which isn't available now in at least one performance?
>
>The Capriccio recordings of the Symphoniae Sacrae have some good singing
>and they're complete, which is a big plus; but some of it is so-so --
>particularly the boys choir; oh brother.
The Rilling performances, especially of II, are more expressive, but the
soloists are not as good.
>
>I'm not aware of a complete recording of the Geistliche Chormusik, which
>is what I would most pine for. Are you?
There are two new boxes from Berlin Classics - I can't remember what they
are.
In any case, don't rely on the Schwann catalog here. Quite a few Schutz
recordings are on labels which don't appear there.
>
>== Joshua
Tony Rothman
Can't leave out the most neglected composer of all:
Zelenka. After 250 years SOME of his choral works
finally getting performed. And they stand comparison
to Bach. Definitely get C-minor requiem, despite
some shortcomings in recording and performance,
and Missa dei Fili, tremendous performance (discounting
authentic instruments) and an excellent recording.
TR
Mark McBride
new messages that had been posted. Now, I know why...
WOW!!! WHAT AN ENORMOUS LIST!!!...
In Article <1994Jun16.0...@fid.morgan.com>, ap...@fid.morgan.com
THE QUESTION AFTER THIS HUGE RESPONSE IS: WHO'S NOT ON THE LIST?
My goodness, with a list like this, it's amazing that anyone has
willingly set out to be a composer!!!
I won't add anyone else. I think there's enough already!!!
Mark McBride
David M. Cook
Mark McBride <mcb...@itd.nrl.navy.mil> wrote:
>THE QUESTION AFTER THIS HUGE RESPONSE IS: WHO'S NOT ON THE LIST?
Meyerbeer?
Dave Cook.
Jim Clow
>I opened up this newsgroup today and found that there were several
>new messages that had been posted. Now, I know why...
>
>WOW!!! WHAT AN ENORMOUS LIST!!!...
>
>
>
[Mercifully, MUCH DELETED!...]
>THE QUESTION AFTER THIS HUGE RESPONSE IS: WHO'S NOT ON THE LIST?
>
SIR MICHAEL TIPPETT
>
>I won't add anyone else. I think there's enough already!!!
>
>
>Mark McBride
See how wrong you can be?
Jim Clow
Alexander Katsman
>sa...@fid.morgan.com (Alexander Katsman) writes:
>
> >trot...@cfa0.harvard.edu (Tony Rothman) writes:
> >>So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
> >
> >Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
>
>
>Sorry, but we were talking about *under*rated composers.
>
>;^>
See ?! I was right ! There has got to be at least one person out
there who thinks that Mozart is overrated !!! That makes Mozart
the most underrated composer of all time !
;-)
>
> - Peter Herweijer
> pie...@sci.kun.nl
Lyle K. Neff
Tony Rothman<trot...@cfa0.harvard.edu> wrote:
Many of those melodies were taken from his first completed and
performed opera "The Voyevoda", whose score he burned but whose
contents he used for other pieces, such as "Oprichnik" and the 1812
Overture. "Voyevoda" was reconstructed from sketches and orchestral
parts that survived and was partially recorded on Melodiya. Arensky
used the same literary source as "Voyevoda" for his opera "A Dream on
the Volga".
I myself am partial to Tchaikovsky's "Cherevichky" and "Iolanta", although
the last scene of "Mazepa" is wonderful, too.
--
Lyle Neff, ln...@ucs.indiana.edu
Anthony Morton
>To which I would add (after dinner!):
>
> Arensky
> Arriaga
> Baczewicz
> Balakirev
> [ etc.etc.... ]
> Weber
> Weill
> Wieniawski
> Wolf
> Ysaye
>
You forgot Bortkiewicz. I prefer his music to Balakirev's and Glazounov's,
but recordings aren't easy to come by.
TM
Margaret Mikulska
>>In article <dkCrFI...@netcom.com> d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) writes:
>>
>> >To which I would add (after dinner!):
>>
>>I like that list. Indeed better than the one with Puccini and Debussy.
>
>It's nice to get some support once in a while. :-)
Dan, since when do you really need support? :-)
>>Two on your list whose music I find boring are Glazunov and Gliere,
>
>The Glazunov concerti and symphonies are great.
The violin cto in A minor is not bad. And if you like saxophone - there
is something for you in Glazunov's output. Beautiful instrument, isn't
it?
Gliere has a nice concerto for coloratura soprano (or mezzo?) and orchestra.
I think that Zara Dolukhanova's recording is available on CD. Great
voice, should be better known.
>>Do you really like that stuff? Why? I recommend ditching the four
>>I have mentioned in this paragraph and putting in Von Suppe instead.
>
>Vons and vans are by definition overrated. Rule of the house! ;-))
Oh, no! Not Anton *von* Webern! Not Carl Maria *von* Weber, either.
Not to mention Walther von der Vogelweide, as little as we known of
him.
-Margaret
Christopher Colby
>
>And how about Chopin? He's OVERrated, if anything.
Not from what I've observed. Most people like his music and think of him
as that guy who wrote all those pretty little piano pieces. But relatively
few people really understand his truly staggering influence and realize
just how innovative he was.
This is getting to be an old chestnut of a dispute.
-chris
Mark-Jan Nederhof
>So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
How about Zemlinsky? Perhaps "of all time" is a bit strong but he's
definitely underrated with the record companies. I was very much surprised
to hear that Decca had removed the recording of "Die Seejungfrau" from their
catalogue, whereas I treasure this work and this recording.
I heard "Die Lyrische Symphonie" by Zemlinsky at a concert the other
day, and I was completely overwelmed. But I think only a few recordings of
this work exist. (I feel that it is reminiscent of the first part
of the Gurre Lieder by Schoenberg, just to give you a coarse impression
of what this music is like.) Anyone know a good recording?
Mark-Jan
Thomas Petersen
>new messages that had been posted. Now, I know why...
>
>WOW!!! WHAT AN ENORMOUS LIST!!!...
>
>
>In Article <1994Jun16.0...@fid.morgan.com>, ap...@fid.morgan.com
>(Stevan Apter) wrote:
>>In article <dkCrGE...@netcom.com> d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) writes:
>>>In article <2tn9pn$8...@linus.mitre.org> rwilmer@zinka (R. Wilmer) writes:
>>>>In article <dkCrFI...@netcom.com> d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) writes:
>>>>
>
>THE QUESTION AFTER THIS HUGE RESPONSE IS: WHO'S NOT ON THE LIST?
>
Actually I don't think I've seen C.P.E. Bach anywhere. The CD
industry is doing great things to get him out of obscurity, but
he still has some way to go before he's a household name. IMHO
he deserves to be that.
Thomas
George Carter
>So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
Clearly Borodin.
He was a medical doctor that composed largely on weekends, yet
is dismissed by many critics, many of whom acknowledge his
excellence, for "low output."
Tony Rothman
we should definitely publish "The Internet Guide to Underrated Music."
However, in all the enthusiasm I see a confusion between "underrated"
and "unknown." Lyaponov, eg, is a perfectly terrible composer and
deserves his anonymity. Glazunov wrote the same symphony 8 times.
Etc. etc.
And I agree about Vieuxtemps.
Tanyeev is clearly underrated. His opera the Oresteia is fabulous,
not to mention at least two movements of the piano quintet, etc.
Zelenka, though must top the list in having the lowest recognition/
quality ratio.
Well, carry on.
Tony
Tony Rothman
Zemlinksy. In general I'm not too fond of his
music but his string quartets stand with the best
of the best (especially 2 &4)
TR
Dag Torvanger
> So, who is the most underrated composer of all time?
> I won't prejudice the discussion with my feelings.
LECLAIR! that's really beautiful.
Dag
Brian Locke u
: Forgot to mention that nobody seems to have mentioned
I agree with Zemlinsky (his Piano Trio Op3 and Die Seejungfrau are very)
But I'd also mention Korngold (his quartets 1 & 3 are a delight, as well
as Violanta's orchestration deserve awards)
and Szymanowski (unbelEEEvable quartets, recently released on
Denon, as well the Violin sonata and Symphony-Concerto for piano and
orchestra)
Poulenc wrote some amazing music, but he repeats himself a little
too often. I love his stuff, its just rather disconcerting to find the
Gloria and Stabat Mater all pieced together from wind sonatas (or is it
the other way around?) while desperately racking one's brains as to where
such and such you've heard before...
bl
James C Liu
> Poulenc wrote some amazing music, but he repeats himself a little
>too often. I love his stuff, its just rather disconcerting to find the
>Gloria and Stabat Mater all pieced together from wind sonatas (or is it
>the other way around?) while desperately racking one's brains as to where
>such and such you've heard before...
J.S. Bach. G.F. Handel. Poulenc comes from a distinguished tradition
of compositional recycling. ;-)
--
/James C.S. Liu, MD "A U.S. Navy cruiser requires 26 tons of
jl...@world.std.com manuals. This is enough to affect the
Department of Medicine performance of the vessel."
New England Med Ctr, Boston MA -- quoted in _New Scientist_
Mario Taboada
<<J.S. Bach. G.F. Handel. Poulenc comes from a distinguished tradition
of compositional recycling. ;-) >>
Mozart was pretty good at it, too. Haydn seems to have done
it less, somewhat surprisingly.
Best,
Mario Taboada
Los Angeles
Jeffrey Turbitt
2.Ibert
3.Chabrier
richard hihn
It has been said that Poulenc wrote only two pieces, one fast and one slow.
Dick
: bl
Timothy R Davidson
1
Dan Koren
>:
>: Poulenc wrote some amazing music, but he repeats himself a little too often.
He also repeats others. :-)
That's very funny.
>: I love his stuff, its just rather disconcerting to find the Gloria and Stabat
>: Mater all pieced together from wind sonatas (or is it the other way around?)
>: while desperately racking one's brains as to where such and such you've heard
>: before...
Ah, but that's no worse than Wagner...
;-))
dk
Stevan Apter
Tischenko (not a Shostakovich clone)
Pijper (not a Stravinsky clone)
Delius (not only for neurasthenics with exquisite taste)
Shapey (not only for formalists with a yen for desert landscapes)
Vermeulen (not only for congenital champions of forgotten geniuses)
Vierne (not just demo material for Telarc speakerbusters)
Alkan ()
Tony Rothman
: : Denon, as well the Violin sonata and Symphony-Concerto for piano and
: : orchestra)
: : Poulenc wrote some amazing music, but he repeats himself a little
: : too often. I love his stuff, its just rather disconcerting to find the
: : Gloria and Stabat Mater all pieced together from wind sonatas (or is it
: : the other way around?) while desperately racking one's brains as to where
: : such and such you've heard before...
The Szymanowski Stabat Mater is, I think, one of the great choral pieces of
the century. I can't think of a better one except the Rachmaninoff Vespers.
His Harnaise ballet-cantata should be done much more often; it' s sort of
a Carmina Burana with brains.
I often find Poulenc a bit too insouciant but his he certainly has his
peaks: The Dialogue of the Carmelites is extraordinarily beautiful.
Tony
Chris Brewster
I'll define the category of "most underrated composer" this way: the
composer for whom my opinion differs the most (in the positive
direction) from the standard judgement. For me, that composer would be
Roy Harris. If you like Georgia O'Keefe, Frank Lloyd Wright, and others
who have expressed something essential about the American space, try
Harris. I've just returned from a trip in the west, during which I
listened to Harris on my car tape player, driving across vast plains and
through mountain ranges. No movie composer could have made music so
appropriate to what I was seeing.
If you give him a listen, go beyond symphony 3: try 5, 6, and 7 if you
can find them. (Will anyone ever record the later works?)
--
Chris Brewster Cray Research, Inc.
Peter Houck
recording on Angel from the sixties that contains "Les Bandar Log".
This is a spectacular performance. The "Seven Stars Symphony" has
been done on digital EMI. The performance is so lackluster that it is
difficult to access the musical merits of the piece.
"The Jungle Book" has been recently released on CD by EMI. This
version of "Les Bandar Log" is dry and dead compared to the Dorati.
Bottom line, Koechlin may be a very underrated composed, but it is hard
to know based on the scanty (and usually poor) performances/recordings
of his work. Anyone heard any of his stuff performed live?
Allen Watson III
I agree, Harris should be better known.
I don't know the later symphonies, but here's my two bits worth about #3:
Don't buy the Bernstein recording.
Bernstein gets some very ugly sounds from the orchestra, and he tends to go
too slow (except in the section that -should- go slow, natcherly).
If you'd like to know what the 3rd sounds like, try Mata's recording. It
isn't as good a performance as the old Hanson recording on Mercury (not
reissued on CD) or the Toscanini broadcast transcription of the 40's (which
has), but it holds together pretty well and the sound is decent.
+------------------------------------------+
| Organizations don't have opinions. |
+------------------------------------------+
Stevan Apter
RCA. And there's another version, without the choral parts, conducted
by Leif Segerstam on Marco Polo, who's also recorded Le Buisson Ardent
for Cybelia.
I like the Dorati excerpt too (that's on EMI), but you should hear
Segerstam.
David M. Cook
Allen Watson III <allen_...@quickmail.apple.com> wrote:
> Don't buy the Bernstein recording.
Which Bernstein recording?
Dave Cook
richard hihn
While I believe I did make a comment in the thread below re Poulenc,
the comments you've quoted are not mine. Please be careful with your
attributions. (:))
Dick
Dan Koren (d...@netcom.com) wrote:
John M. Proffitt
Randall Thompson 2nd will come out also. And the Diamond 4th. And so on...
Bernstein DG is paired with the William Schuman 3rd, another great American
symphony. Both are taken from live NYPO concert performances. IMHO, the
Mata recording can't hold a candle to the Bernstein.
The best Harris 3rd, also OP but we can hope (are you listening BMG?), is
the Ormandy/Philadelphia recording on RCA. Ormandy restores a number of
small, but not insignificant, cuts in the work.
Ralph Miller
---
--------------------------------------------------
Ralph Miller | Voice: 510/823-8003
Pacific*Bell | Email: rdm...@pacbell.com
| FAX: 510/867-8516
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Allen Watson III
The one I have--and the only one I've seen in the stores--is a live concert
recording with the N Y Philharmonic on DGG 419 780-2. Do you know of
others?
BTW, the other recordings of Harris's 3rd I mentioned are:
- Mata, Dallas, Dorian DOR 90170 "An American Panorama" (1992)
- Toscanini, NBC, Dell'Arte CD DA9020 "Toscanini Conducts Music by his
Contemporaries" (1940)
- Hanson, Eastman Rochester, OOP
David M. Cook
Allen Watson III <allen_...@quickmail.apple.com> wrote:
>The one I have--and the only one I've seen in the stores--is a live concert
>recording with the N Y Philharmonic on DGG 419 780-2. Do you know of
>others? [recordings of the Harris 3rd Symphony]
I'm pretty sure there was a Columbia LP.
Hopefully Sony will start reissuing some of the American music
that Bernstein recorded in the 60's. I suppose I shouldn't
hold my breathe, though.
Dave Cook
P. Fritz Cronheim
allen_...@quickmail.apple.com (Allen Watson III) writes:
>> - Toscanini, NBC, Dell'Arte CD DA9020 "Toscanini Conducts Music by his
>> Contemporaries" (1940)
What else is on this recording? The only modern American work I knew to
be conducted by Toscanini was Barber's _Adagio_.
P. Fritz Cronheim
P. Fritz Cronheim
jpro...@uh.edu (John M. Proffitt) writes:
>> Bernstein CBS/Sony may eventually be released on CD...one can hope that the
>> Randall Thompson 2nd will come out also. And the Diamond 4th. And so on...
I know the Randall Thompson 2nd from an *old* LP with Dean Dixon conducting.
Is there a Bernstein recording too? The symphony is a fine work, as are many
works by the "American Symphonists" (Piston, Hanson, Harris, Diamond,
both Thompsons, etc.).
P. Fritz Cronheim
Mike Quigley
(David M. Cook) writes:
> I'm pretty sure there was a Columbia LP.
> Hopefully Sony will start reissuing some of the American music
> that Bernstein recorded in the 60's. I suppose I shouldn't
> hold my breathe, though.
I second this! I have an album conducted by Bernstein featuring Ligeti's
Atmospheres plus pieces by Feldman and Larry Austin and "improvisations by
the orchestra". The Austin piece, featuring Don Ellis on trumpet, is
particularly rank ... I remember watching this on TV.
Allen Watson III
I don't remember all the titles, but the other composers are Rubra,
Roger-Ducasse, Sibelius, Paganini (!), and Kabalevsky.
- Allen