did modernism steal fire from future generations?
Benny Fitzoffheinseit
the whole movement. let's first focus on a few of its manifestations.
ironically, the 60s generation and the new wave with their zealous
emphasis on newness and youth stole the possibility for newness and
youth from the following generations because the hectic and wild orgy
of newness of the 60s burnt and exhausted the ways in which following
generations can be 'new', 'different', etc. this is largely true
about the explosion of modern art in the early 20th century.
when art progressed slowly, with each generation stubbornly clinging
to the past while remaining suspicious of the new, artists of each
generation could contribute something fundamentally new against a
resistant zeitgeist. think of hadyn, mozart, beethoven, wagner,
mahler, stravinsky. each artist faced much resistance and hostility,
and was then followed by a generation that had to work as hard to
produce another major innovation. but, with total freedom and
critical acceptance emphasizing interpretation more than judgment, all
artforms become exhausted right away. their possibilities become
exhausted even before genuinely talented artists arrive on the scene
to put them to good use. it's just so easy to be clever or eccentric.
critics, instead of remaining independent of the artist, is today
slobbering over and laying the red carpet for anyone donning the cloak
of newness. how else do you justify the crap of chantal ackerman and
lard born frier? critics are afraid of their own criteria and
obligations, and instead, motivated mainly by the fear of being
labeled a fuddydud or a dinosaur.
take jazz for instance. it took many decades for jazz for develop from
a form of regional entertainment to mass entertainment to respected
art form to high art form. but, it took rock music only 10 yrs to go
from teen dance music to the 'great' art of dylan, beatles, etc.
while the speed of acceptance is refreshing, rock has been exhausted
of its aesthetic possiblities within one generation whereas jazz grew
organically--albeit more slowly--from dance music to serious music.
now, i'm making a devil's advocate's argument because if total freedom
makes for rapid cultural exhaustion, so be it; besides, time will
ultimately separate the wheat from the chaff; i doubt if anyone 100
yrs from will sit thru jeanne dielmann which will at best
remembered--if anyone care to remember--as a silly socio-political
artifact like women's suffrage songs of the late 19th century.
it's true that with total freedom in the arts, we still have great
things being accomplished in painting, sculpture, music, cinema, etc.
but we rarely feel anything in the arts is fresh, new, or daring. the
only way anybody can attract attention is by going EXTREME, like
tarantino's with his foulness, julianne moore with her exposed skanky
bush, michael moore with his beercan politics, rock/rap stars with
their infantile not-so-outrageous-anymore behavior and blockbusters
which blow up bigger and bigger objects. we have removed snobs and
taboos but in the process we've also banished pungency and freshness
from art. with nothing to rebel against and with every possible
variation being exhausted by clever subartists, arts lack a sense of
urgency or significance. the clever antics of tv commercials and
music videos have probably played with every visual possibility but to
what purpose? every class in art school cooks up myriad clever ways
to redefine art but who the hell cares at this point? and,
ironically, people like godard who was once hailed as new is now
grumpy and pissed with everything he helped unleash. i bet godard
hates tarantino no less than he hates spielberg. if anything,
godard's latterday movies seem to be uninterested in newness; godard
knows the concept of 'new' is now forever old. did godard abandon his
first artistic persona for maoism because he suspected his films had
become like the things they were suppose to question--trendy and
fashionable consumer items for the bourgeois with bohemian
pretensions? godard the old man no longer believes in creating a new
cinema or new society. godard has made peace with the world and the
arts by shitting on everything, old and new, all the while preferring
the old--painting, classical music, philosophy--which at least possess
a contemplative grace and a sense of permanence--by intention and
fact--whereas new stuff exist mainly to provoke us and call attention
to the artist's ego; in old art, the artist gave himself to his
creation; with new art, the artwork exists to extol the genius or
revolutionary credentials of the artist.
i wish we could have an artform so mysterious and complex that even
after a 1000 yrs, people could still be shocked and surprised by new
things done with it. this was the case with most artforms before the
advent of modernism which in a few generations took the freshness out
of art in the name of freshness. same with spirituality. hinduism
and other forms of spiritualism that gave sustenance to the mankind
for millenia burned out in 3 days at woodstock. not that we should
adhere to mifune's statement in yojimbo: 'live a long life eating rice
gruel'. but, as eaglebear say, fire that burn slow burn longer than
fire that burn high and fizzle. it seems to be case with summer
barbecues anyway.
Thomas Wood
Tom Wood
Dilettante
never mind
> the whole movement. ...
thanks. do you mind if I never mind something else, too?
Dilettante
Mike Stengl
> did modernism make artistic movements burn out instantly?
yes, it's much harder to make a 'splash' these days, but painters
still paint, writers still write and the good ones do it because they
are driven to, success or no. one finds tiny little ways to make old
things new and put your finger print on them.
i think we need the beer can politics however.
did anyone know (or care) that the u.s. made a deal with the saudis in
the 70's that they would only sell their oil for american $'s in
return for our military support of their regime? that saddam was going
to start selling his oil for euro's? i didn't. fills in a lot of the
blanks when i think about it.
Juan Jose Morales
depressed by the fact that art movements in the 20th century did not
last as long as the Baroque period--very fascinating, the way that
period went from Monteverdi to Handel and Telemann--, and at the fact
that mere eccentricity has taken the place of real originality. However,
do not despair altogether; some of my fellow students at the University
of South Florida demonstrate promising talent, and they should give you
something to cheer about. I myself have given them this advice: create
first, and let your creations be the ones to start a movement, not the
other way around. Rubens and Monteverdi were not concerned about
creating the Baroque style; they just wanted to do their best as
artists, and creating a style was the reward of their originality and
their genius.
En el Nombre de DIOS Arriba Nosotros.
Jerry Kohl
> did modernism make artistic movements burn out instantly?
[snip]
> i wish we could have an artform so mysterious and complex that even
> after a 1000 yrs, people could still be shocked and surprised by new
> things done with it. this was the case with most artforms before the
> advent of modernism which in a few generations took the freshness out
> of art in the name of freshness.
Far out, man. It's obvious, isn't it, that there have been not great film
directors in the grand tradition since Thomas A. Edison's swan song,
Electrocuting an Elefant (1903).
In Alain Resnais' Last Year in Marienbad , a predominant concept is the
concept of semioticist sexuality. However, any number of narratives
concerning nihilism may be found. The subject is contextualised into a
neocultural paradigm of reality that includes art as a paradox. It could
be said that Tim Burton turned Pee Wee's Big Adventure into something
quite a bit more than a choice between nihilism and neocapitalist theory.
In the works of Edward Bernds, a predominant concept is the distinction
between opening and closing. The primary theme of the works of John
Cherry is the common ground between society and narrativity. However, the
example of modern situationism depicted in Bernds's Squareheads of the
Round Table emerges again in Cherry’s Ernest Rides Again.
The main theme of Scuglia's analysis of nihilism is the role of the
writer as observer. It could be said that a number of narratives
concerning a self-referential reality exist. If modern situationism
holds, we have to choose between nihilism and the textual paradigm of
narrative. But the subject is interpolated into a subdialectic
desublimation that includes consciousness as a paradox. The primary theme
of the works of Hallström is the role of the participant as dog. Thus,
Lyotard uses the term 'modern situationism' to denote not
deappropriation, as Marxist class suggests, but subdeappropriation. The
subject is contextualised into a modern situationism that includes
culture as a reality. Therefore, Long suggests that the films of John
Cherry are modernistic.
Sartre promotes the use of nihilism to analyse and modify truth. It could
be said that many constructions concerning subdialectic desublimation may
be revealed as discourses of collapse. If one examines capitalist theory,
one is faced with a choice: either accept subdialectic desublimation or
conclude that sexual identity, perhaps ironically, has objective value.
Modern situationism implies that art may be used to exploit minorities.
Therefore, in Knowhutimean?, Cherry denies subdialectic desublimation; in
Ernest Goes to Camp, although, he affirms modern situationism.
"Society is part of the rubicon of reality," says Sontag; however,
according to von Ludwig , it is not so much society that is part of the
rubicon of reality, but rather the failure, and eventually the
meaninglessness, of society. Sartre uses the term 'subdialectic
desublimation' to denote the defining characteristic, and some would say
the collapse, of neostructural sexual identity. But if nihilism holds, we
have to choose between textual precultural theory and capitalist
rationalism.
If one examines nihilism, one is faced with a choice: either reject
modern situationism or conclude that context is a product of the masses.
The characteristic theme of Cameron's model of Lyotardist narrative is
not materialism, but postmaterialism. Thus, the economy, and thus the
defining characteristic, of nihilism intrinsic to Lamont's Ma and Pa
Kettle on Vacation is also evident in Abbott and Costello Go to Mars,
although in a more subtextual sense.
In the works of Gibson, a predominant concept is the concept of
semioticist truth. The primary theme of the works of Gibson is the bridge
between society and sexual identity. However, Derrida uses the term 'the
postdialectic paradigm of narrative' to denote the futility, and
eventually the collapse, of deconstructive class. The main theme of de
Selby's analysis of modern situationism is a mythopoetical totality. It
could be said that Scuglia holds that we have to choose between
subdialectic desublimation and subtextual deappropriation.
Debord suggests the use of nihilism to attack sexism. Thus, the subject
is interpolated into a structuralist paradigm of narrative that includes
narrativity as a paradox. Foucault's model of nihilism implies that the
collective is capable of significance, but only if sexuality is equal to
truth; otherwise, Marx's model of subdialectic desublimation is one of
"prematerial narrative", and hence fundamentally dead. But Baudrillard
uses the term 'modern situationism' to denote not discourse as such, but
subdiscourse.
If nihilism holds, we have to choose between Debordist situation and
dialectic rationalism. Thus, Sontag uses the term 'nihilism' to denote
the meaninglessness, and subsequent stasis, of posttextual sexuality. The
subject is contextualised into a subdialectic desublimation that includes
reality as a whole. Therefore, any number of desituationisms concerning a
conceptualist totality exist. Lacan uses the term 'nihilism' to denote
the economy, and therefore the futility, of predialectic sexual identity.
But modern situationism holds that narrativity is used to reinforce
hierarchy.
Many desituationisms concerning semiotic narrative may be revealed.
However, cultural postpatriarchialist theory states that consensus is a
product of the collective unconscious. The subject is interpolated into a
neomodernist nationalism that includes culture as a paradox. It could be
said that Lacan promotes the use of semiotic narrative to modify class.
The subject is contextualised into a modern semioticism that includes
reality as a totality. In a sense, a number of theories concerning the
meaninglessness, and some would say the rubicon, of subdialectic society
exist.
Derrida uses the term 'neomodernist nationalism' to denote a
mythopoetical reality. Therefore, Buxtonholds that we have to choose
between cultural narrative and precapitalist objectivism. In the works of
Fatty Arbuckle, a predominant concept is the concept of pretextual
consciousness. Therefore, Lyotard suggests the use of Baudrillardist
hyperreality to challenge the status quo. The subject is interpolated
into a constructivist situationism that includes truth as a totality. In
a sense, the premise of structural desublimation holds that narrative is
created by communication. If materialist neotextual theory holds, we have
to choose between Baudrillardist hyperreality and subcapitalist theory.
However, several appropriations concerning material discourse exist. In
Family Plot, Hitchcock reiterates constructivist situationism; in North
by Northwest, however, he denies neocultural theory.: "There are no
symbols in North by Northwest. Oh yes! One. The last shot, the train
entering the tunnel after the love scene between Cary Grant and Eva Marie
Saint. It's a phallic symbol. But don't tell anyone." In a sense, an
abundance of discourses concerning the common ground between society and
sexual identity may be revealed. The subject is contextualised into a
constructivist situationism that includes reality as a whole.
Derrida uses the term 'presemanticist theory' to denote the role of the
poet as writer. Therefore, many deappropriations concerning a
postcapitalist reality may be discovered. Any number of
dedeconstructivisms concerning Batailleist `powerful communication'
exist. However, the characteristic theme of Abian's critique of textual
sublimation is the fatal flaw, and hence the futility, of subdialectic
consciousness.
If one examines Lacanist obscurity, one is faced with a choice: either
accept neodialectic semiotic theory or conclude that culture is capable
of significance. In a sense, the primary theme of the works of Eisenstein
is the difference between sexuality and sexual identity. The subject is
interpolated into a Lacanist obscurity that includes culture as a
reality. Therefore, the stasis of prepatriarchialist discourse intrinsic
to Lamont's Knee Action emerges again in I Was a Shoplifter. Marx
suggests the use of Lacanist obscurity to attack the status quo.
In the works of Lamont, a predominant concept is the distinction between
figure and ground. Sartre uses the term 'postmaterial discourse' to
denote the role of the writer as observer. However, the subject is
interpolated into a neosemanticist objectivism that includes reality as a
reality. Bataille suggests the use of Lyotardist narrative to read and
analyse class. Therefore, Sontag uses the term 'textual sublimation' to
denote not discourse, as Lyotardist narrative suggests, but prediscourse.
The example of capitalist subdeconstructive theory which is a central
theme of Lamont's Curtain Call at Cactus Creek emerges again in Abbott
and Costello Meet the Mummy, although in a more mythopoetical sense.
However, the main theme of Tilton's essay on the subconceptual paradigm
of consensus is the role of the artist as poet. Sartre promotes the use
of capitalist subdeconstructive theory to deconstruct hierarchy. It could
be said that Scuglia implies that we have to choose between postmaterial
discourse and cultural libertarianism.
In the works of Cherry, a predominant concept is the concept of
capitalist narrativity. Baudrillard promotes the use of neodialectic
cultural theory to modify sexuality. However, Lacan uses the term 'the
predialectic paradigm of context' to denote the futility, and subsequent
absurdity, of prepatriarchial society. If the textual paradigm of context
holds, the films of Cherry are modernistic (e.g., Ernest Goes to Camp,
Ernest Scared Stupid). Thus, the primary theme of the works of Cherry is
a subcultural whole.
In Dr. Otto and the Riddle of the Gloom Beam, Cherry affirms textual
neoconceptual theory; in Ernest Saves Christmas, however, he deconstructs
nihilism. But Sontag uses the term 'the dialectic paradigm of discourse'
to denote the role of the poet as artist. The main theme of the works of
Cherry is the difference between class and society. In a sense, Marx uses
the term 'precapitalist discourse' to denote the fatal flaw, and
eventually the economy, of subcultural sexuality.
In a sense, the main theme of the works of Poliakoff is the absurdity,
and hence the dialectic, of patriarchial class. Debord promotes the use
of postcultural socialism to analyse sexual identity. But Lacan uses the
term 'the subcapitalist paradigm of expression' to denote not narrative,
but prenarrative. In Caught on a Train, Poliakoff affirms neosemanticist
discourse; in She’s Been Away, however, he deconstructs postcultural
socialism.
It could be said that Alemany-Galway ‘s analysis of neosemanticist
discourse holds that language is capable of deconstruction. Truffault
implies that we have to choose between textual nationalism and the
submodern paradigm of context.
But I digress ...
--
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Dr.Matt
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Far out, man. It's obvious, isn't it, that there have been not great film
>
>In Alain Resnais' Last Year in Marienbad , a predominant concept is the
>concept of semioticist sexuality. However, any number of narratives
>concerning nihilism may be found. The subject is contextualised into a
>neocultural paradigm of reality that includes art as a paradox. It could
>be said that Tim Burton turned Pee Wee's Big Adventure into something
>quite a bit more than a choice between nihilism and neocapitalist theory.
Nice generator you have there.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"Hey, don't knock Placebo, its the only thing effective for my hypochondria."
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
dobe...@dropsocal.rr.com
>The main theme of Scuglia's analysis of nihilism is the role of the
>writer as observer. It could be said that a number of narratives
>concerning a self-referential reality exist. If modern situationism
>holds, we have to choose between nihilism and the textual paradigm of
>narrative. But the subject is interpolated into a subdialectic
>desublimation that includes consciousness as a paradox. The primary theme
>of the works of Hallström is the role of the participant as dog. Thus,
>Lyotard uses the term 'modern situationism' to denote not
>deappropriation, as Marxist class suggests, but subdeappropriation. The
>subject is contextualised into a modern situationism that includes
>culture as a reality. Therefore, Long suggests that the films of John
>Cherry are modernistic.
I bet you're a blast on a date.
Jerry Kohl
> In article <40D9DA95...@comcast.net>,
> Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >Far out, man. It's obvious, isn't it, that there have been not great film
> >
>
> >In Alain Resnais' Last Year in Marienbad , a predominant concept is the
> >concept of semioticist sexuality. However, any number of narratives
> >concerning nihilism may be found. The subject is contextualised into a
> >neocultural paradigm of reality that includes art as a paradox. It could
> >be said that Tim Burton turned Pee Wee's Big Adventure into something
> >quite a bit more than a choice between nihilism and neocapitalist theory.
>
> Nice generator you have there.
Borrowed the postmodernist essay generator from Monash University.
Must remember to return it in the morning.
Abelard2
At any rate, the title of your thread brought to mind this poem:
Prometheus
By Paul Lawrence Dunbar
Prometheus stole from Heaven the sacred fire
And swept to earth with it o'er land and sea.
He lit the vestal flames of poesy,
Content, for this, to brave celestial ire.
Wroth were the gods, and with eternal hate
Pursued the fearless one who ravished Heaven
That earth might hold in fee the perfect leaven
To lift men's souls above their low estate.
But judge you now, when poets wield the pen,
Think you not well the wrong has been repaired?
'T was all in vain that ill Prometheus fared:
The fire has been returned to Heaven again!
We have no singers like the ones whose note
Gave challenge to the noblest warbler's song.
We have no voice so mellow, sweet, and strong
As that which broke from Shelley's golden throat.
The measure of our songs is our desires:
We tinkle where old poets used to storm.
We lack their substance tho' we keep their form:
We strum our banjo-strings and call them lyres.
abelard2
the Davidsbündler site
http://members.aol.com/abelard2/dave.htm
Erik A. Mattila
Yes, I read that. In fact, the whole "Axels of Evil" did that just -
Iran and N. Korea along with Iraq - all went over to the Euro. Then
Venezuela did the same, just before the failed coup attempt. To top it
off, OPEC has it on the table - either converting to the Euro or making
its own currency.
The Euro has practically no debt behind it, while the Dollar is piling
up billions and billions of debt. Something's gotta give. How big can
a fiat currency puff-up before it bursts.
Maybe in the future when all the bullshit is cut through, this war will
be known as "The War On Currency" instead of "The War On Terrorism."
Erik
Thur
"Benny Fitzoffheinseit" <bennyfito...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f40c70a.04062...@posting.google.com...
> ..and the new wave with their zealous
> emphasis on newness and youth stole the possibility for newness and
> youth from the following generations..<
Is it possible that art in general has been fixated with this "newness"
thing?
Once some "new" artist produces something that sells, then just see the
factory churn out the same stuff over an over again.
Barnett Newman as an easy example coming to mind.
> ..but, with total freedom and
> critical acceptance emphasising interpretation more than judgement, all
> artforms become exhausted right away.
I think it was the turning away from a certain level of technique, and
leading
to works that demonstrated absolutely nothing that the viewer could see or
read into a work, or anything skilful to admire that led this ng's subject
into
it's cul de sac of ideas increasingly during the 20th cent.
There's nothing wrong in new ideas, but it's the rejection of an understood
formula or language which both the creative art makers and their public
share, that has been missing, and of course the fact that the skill level
does
not increase as you follow the more expensive and publicised works upward.
The field of music and filmmaking must defend themselves, and unless
particularly relevant, in their own ngs.
Thur
Alan Watkins
even attempt to modulate.
kind regards,
alan m watkins
Valeria
I agree with what you say about a lack of criteria in the visual arts
these days.
But the idea of the artisit's skill level with regards to a work's
value is problematic, because as we all know, that even beyond the
visual arts...skills do not necessarily pay. So here we have the arts
reflecting this larger "problem" in society...but is it really a
problem? I think the whole idea of what is and is not skill falls
into that lack of formula or language for the creative arts...there is
no formula for judging skill anymore. But should something be done
about this? Should the fine artist be compared to some professional,
like a medical doctor? Clearly a lack of skill in practicing medicine
has far greater consequences, or does it? What have we done? Has art
flat-lined?
Someone in an above post said art is dead. Does this matter? I think
art is finally being understood for what it really is. If art is
totally free, isn't that a good thing, in the sense that art is what
it is in essence...it's creators may have a problem with that, but I
think if you asked art if it liked it's freedom it would say, "I love
it!"
The most frustrating thing for the artists now, and others who work in
the art world now, is that they cannot feel secure in what they do at
all, anymore. But that is tough luck for us humans. Art is a human
construction, but it has beat the humans who created it. The freedom
which it holds, means that the poor artist's ego suffers...oh well. I
like seeing the ppl in the art world whose egos are squirming...in
fact I like seeing egos squirm period. The fact that art has escaped
it's reigns reflects a larger problem in society that should be
corrected before society slips its reigns...then what the hell do we
do? The point is...if art is lost in the wilderness because of
freedom...we will lose any hold on our society if we keep moving
toward absolute freedom, which is where we are going. Then you could
ask society if it liked it's new freedom, and it would say, "I love
it!"...but if you ask it's people, they would say..."Help!"...the
problem is correcting the ego...ppl need to suck it up and not let the
ego win!
-Danielle :)
Thur
"Valeria" <dannie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:108cebc7.04062...@posting.google.com...
How do we judge if one art work is better than another?
How do we rate one artist against another?
If we judge, then we have to have criteria.
Art is not actually lost, it is the people who market and teach it,
from what I read.
Look where there is "art" that "cannot be judged", and you
have found examples of your "art is lost in the wilderness".
Thur
Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )
Mike Stengl wrote:
>
> bennyfito...@hotmail.com (Benny Fitzoffheinseit) wrote in message news:<f40c70a.04062...@posting.google.com>...
> > did modernism make artistic movements burn out instantly?
>
> yes, it's much harder to make a 'splash' these days, but painters
> still paint, writers still write and the good ones do it because they
> are driven to, success or no. one finds tiny little ways to make old
> things new and put your finger print on them.
>
Like by rebelling against the idea that there are no rules. Look up
something called "postmodernism".
> i think we need the beer can politics however.
>
> did anyone know (or care) that the u.s. made a deal with the saudis in
> the 70's that they would only sell their oil for american $'s in
> return for our military support of their regime? that saddam was going
> to start selling his oil for euro's? i didn't. fills in a lot of the
> blanks when i think about it.
>
LOL. Just thought you'd toss that in like a hand grenade, eh?. Too bad
you didn't pull the pin.
--
"He named his second child Jim after the horse that had brought him to
Washington. He caught his son one day writing 'James' on his lessons,
and he told the boy without raising his voice that if he had wanted to
name him 'James', that is what he would have done." -+Edward P. Jones,
"The Known World"
Sandy
!!! That was good!!! Dr. Matt the generator comment was precious too,
I was just sitting here thinking the exact same thing... and since the
topic has been brought up, where do we all think art is headed? Is it
really dead? Did past generations of artists feel it was dead as well?
Dr.Matt
The usual story is that Art was killed by his sister Morgie, though he might
have gotten in trouble looking for rare pottery in the Middle East with
his pal Percy.
Eusebius7
>Did past generations of artists feel it was dead as well?
>
>
Past generations certainly felt that it needed to resurrected from time to
time. See:
http://members.aol.com/abelard2/march.htm
eusebius7
Visit the scenic Davidsbuendler site:
http://members.aol.com/buendler
ethan
dead, and then I think there's the part, which may be tiny, that feels
that all under the sun has not been done, and makes new music. People
seem to think art is dead because things start to sound boring or samey
within certain genres or divisions therein, and don't see where to take
it from there. It's not dead, it's just that all avenues in that
direction have been explored (exploited), given the current musical
climate and circumstances.
Thur
"ethan" <et...@no.f---ing.spam.batterypowered.org> wrote in message
news:sImFc.67643$Np3.3...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> I think there are certain parts of all generations that feel that art is
> dead, and then I think there's the part, which may be tiny, that feels
> that all under the sun has not been done, and makes new music. People
> seem to think art is dead because things start to sound boring or samey
> within certain genres or divisions therein, and don't see where to take
> it from there. It's not dead, it's just that all avenues in that
> direction have been explored (exploited), given the current musical
> climate and circumstances.
>
> Sandy wrote:
>
> > alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins) wrote in message
news:<62c8649c.04062...@posting.google.com>...
> >
Perhaps it's the "modern" idea that only something completely original
can be acceptable.
How do people who work in literature cope with this? Someone once said
there only 9 stories in the world. This may or may not be true, but the
meaning
is clear.
The "art is dead" remark may unconsciously refer to the speaker's creative
power, or may also be a comment upon the society from which art springs.
Thur
Mike1
>The "art is dead" remark may unconsciously refer to the speaker's creative
>power, or may also be a comment upon the society from which art springs.
Or, it could be a clear-eyed view of what results when governments wade
into the marketplace with satches of stolen loot, and throw it at
garbage like this:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/visualarts/tiltedarc_a.h
tml
--
Reply to mike1@@@usfamily.net sans two @@, or your reply won't reach me.
Drug smugglers and gun-runners are heroes of American capitalism.
-- Jeffrey Quick
Thur
'Serra's career continues to flourish, despite the controversy.
"I don't think it is the function of art to be pleasing," he comments
at the time. "Art is not democratic. It is not for the people." '
Apart from the instant reaction I am sure most of us would have,
it is clear that he has agreed that his art should never have been
public art at all. Or does he I wonder think that his art should
be undemocratically forced upon the public?
He is entitled to his view, although typically, he(or the media) does
not favour us with any argument to support his point of view.
I would say on the basis of the quote that he is talking rot.
Thur
"Mike1" <humphreys-remedial...@usfamily.net> wrote in message
news:humphreys-remedial-education-...@www.phswest.com...
Erik A. Mattila
> I cut this from your example.
> 'Serra's career continues to flourish, despite the controversy.
> "I don't think it is the function of art to be pleasing," he comments
> at the time. "Art is not democratic. It is not for the people." '
>
> Apart from the instant reaction I am sure most of us would have,
> it is clear that he has agreed that his art should never have been
> public art at all. Or does he I wonder think that his art should
> be undemocratically forced upon the public?
>
> He is entitled to his view, although typically, he(or the media) does
> not favour us with any argument to support his point of view.
>
> I would say on the basis of the quote that he is talking rot.
> Thur
Thur, there was a polished black granite sculpture installed in a plaza
in San Francisco's finanial district years ago. It was sort of like a
flattened bowling ball, w/ a couple of semi-sharp edges. Herb Caen
christianed it "The Banker's Heart" in his column, and everybody then
loved the work of art. Before Caen's words, however, everybody seemed
to be quite ambivalent about the piece. I would read Serra's words with
some circumscription: There was no public input on the "Banker's Heart"
- it was put in public view by a bank, in fact. Equally, juries and
bureaucrats select other works for public spaces. How often is there a
vote?
Another example I can think of was the Chicago Public Library. I
believe a special alderman committee selected half a dozen architects to
compete, paying them a million bucks each to prepare their entries.
There was actually some really outstanding entries, IMO, but the
selection committee chose the least appropriate, again IMO. They chose
a pastische of Greek/Roman themes, which is relevant to Chicago how?
But you can bet that "the people" had no venue to select or deselect.
That's the sense I get from Serra's comment. He's a very smart guy.
Erik
Chris
"Thur" <a@spamless.z> wrote in message
news:c7EFc.330$_X2...@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
> I cut this from your example.
> 'Serra's career continues to flourish, despite the controversy.
> "I don't think it is the function of art to be pleasing," he comments
> at the time. "Art is not democratic. It is not for the people." '
>
Of course he's right. Art - especially these days - is almost always that of
a private voice, and it runs counter to the notion of individual equality in
the face of the state for that state to fund one voice over another.
OTOH, art is a reality of the state; it is a very easy means for a powerful
group to emphasize their superiority over the rest. Forcing people to
"enjoy" Richard Serra is no different than forcing them, as the saying here
in Canada used to go, to "speak white". Or perhaps work like Serra's is
simply more akin to Orwell's "newspeak"... But at least there is some
comfort that the trash work of state propaganda eventually gets pulled down
to far more impact than its raising - as Eastern Europeans found out w/r to
Stalin statues, or cf. Courbet and Napolean's Column..
Chris
Peter T. Daniels
I don't know why a thread about Richard Serra was thrust into
rec.music.classical, and the CPL design that was built wasn't the one I
voted for, but if you don't see how Hammond Beebe Babka's design relates
to the previous century of Chicago architecture, then you would do well
to study the history of Chicago architecture before commenting.
Also go visit their earlier Conrad Selzer Library Center, on the
Northwest Side. They definitely knew what they were doing in planning
libraries.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Erik A. Mattila
I tried to find something on the net showing the other designs, w/ no
luck. Too bad...some of the others that I saw on the documentary film
of the competiton (was it NOVA) were pretty awesome. You're right about
arch. history of Chicago, but there is one problem that I can see, and
that is the Greek Revival style in 19th century buildings is pretty
widespread throughout the country - nothing unique to Chicago. That's
why I thought some of the other designs had a much stronger sense of
place. But look, the Harold Washington Library rocks, of course. My
point, however, is that it wasn't selected by "the people."
Thur
be. The elitist folks who make it and select it for public display
do it for their own set of desires.
Thur
"Erik A. Mattila" <emat...@oco.net> wrote in message
news:40E708B1...@oco.net...
Thur
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E75C...@worldnet.att.net...
> Erik A. Mattila wrote:
> >
> > Thur wrote:
> > > I cut this from your example.
> > > 'Serra's career continues to flourish, despite the controversy.
> > > "I don't think it is the function of art to be pleasing," he comments
> > > at the time. "Art is not democratic. It is not for the people." '
> > >
> > > Apart from the instant reaction I am sure most of us would have,
> > > it is clear that he has agreed that his art should never have been
> > > public art at all. Or does he I wonder think that his art should
> > > be undemocratically forced upon the public?
> > >
> > > He is entitled to his view, although typically, he(or the media) does
> > > not favour us with any argument to support his point of view.
> > >
> > > I would say on the basis of the quote that he is talking rot.
> > > Thur
> I don't know why a thread about Richard Serra was thrust into
> rec.music.classical, <
>snipped<
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
The original thread dealt with art in general. It is inevitable that this
thread would end up disintegrating into it's constituent parts.
If you have a browser like Outlook Express then put an "ignore"
on the thread.
Thur
Peter T. Daniels
Calling it -- or _anything_ PoMo in the Tigerman tradition -- "Greek
Revival" is very sadly off the mark.
Is The Boardwalk (if I remember the name correctly; the one you see from
the "L") at Broadway & Montrose "Greek Revival" because Tigerman made
little balconies look like a Doric column "supporting" a "pediment" at
the top?
> > Also go visit their earlier Conrad Selzer Library Center, on the
> > Northwest Side. They definitely knew what they were doing in planning
> > libraries.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
michael
Thur wrote:
> Yes public art can be loved. But in general it is not meant to
> be. The elitist folks who make it and select it for public display
> do it for their own set of desires.
yeah, whatever...the vancouver jazz festival is just now winding up it's
10-day run and i am one satisfied little elitist, i guess... yesterday,
in a publicly funded theater i listened to evan parker, two violinists,
two stand-up bassists, and peggy lee on cello do a 50 minute
improvisation that sent me rapturous and many running to the door...
by any standard, this was "public art", funded by corporate and
government interests... it is also, like most jazz, elitist... and,
unquestionably, parker and lee et al were doing it "for their own set of
desires" and cared not that it be loved by the people who bolted for the
doors...
remove public art and you'll have giant video screens of excedingly high
quality shoving britney spears in your face 24 hours a day whether you
like it or not... you won't be able to call it elitist, though, so maybe
it'll be a good thing...
i, on the other hand, figure that if they can't take a little brilliant
improvisation, fuck 'em... circular breathing forever!
michael
Thur
desires" and cared not that it be loved by the people
who bolted for the doors...<
Is your post meant to be ironic, or are you happy that
public money funds are channelled into art of limited
appeal?
Choosing Britney is not necessary to find popularity.
You would never have heard of Jazz if it had not at one
time or other been popular. Therefore look at music
or even Jazz if you insist and find where are those
areas of greatest interest. That's where public money
should be going, if you accept that public money should
be used to fund the arts at all.
Playing to empty houses will not further anyone's art.
In the case of performance arts, people have the
chance to avoid them, but if in the case of "sculptures"
and "installations", they are littered about the planet in
our full view, then they must have appeal.
Sometimes familiarity will endear works to people, but
mostly they are annoying litter.
Thur
"michael" <non...@mungo.com> wrote in message
news:40E839A6...@mungo.com...
michael
Thur wrote:
>>et al were doing it "for their own set of
>
> desires" and cared not that it be loved by the people
> who bolted for the doors...<
>
> Is your post meant to be ironic, or are you happy that
> public money funds are channelled into art of limited
> appeal?
of course i'm happy public funds are chanelled into art of limited
appeal; it's the only kind of art that NEEDS public funds...your
insistence on making things appeal to the public is ridiculous; the
public's taste are already overwhelmingly in evidence everywhere you
look and go... you channel YOUR funds into macdonalds; i'd prefer my tax
dollars to go where profit cannot be made, thank you...
you don't want to look at public art you don't like? rent a dvd of
independence day and stay home watching it...
michael
Alan Watkins
> fire that burn high and fizzle. it seems to be case with summer
> barbecues anyway.
And I thought the four Ritual Dances by Tippett were difficult. How lucky I am!
Try lapping a new calf skin head and let us know how you get on.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Mike1
>I cut this from your example.
>'Serra's career continues to flourish, despite the controversy.
>"I don't think it is the function of art to be pleasing," he comments
>at the time. "Art is not democratic. It is not for the people." '
Meanwhile, he's perfectly happy to accept a big, fat check's worth of
stolen ("tax") loot for a public-works project that, in this case, was
abject crap.
Mike1
>yeah, whatever...the vancouver jazz festival is just now winding up it's
>10-day run and i am one satisfied little elitist, i guess... yesterday,
>in a publicly funded theater i listened to evan parker, two violinists,
>two stand-up bassists, and peggy lee on cello do a 50 minute
>improvisation that sent me rapturous and many running to the door...
If anybody let it be known that they weren't going to pay for all this
rapture on your part, what would you do about it?
Mike1
>....public money funds....
"Erik A. Mattila" <emat...@oco.net> wrote:
>....the Chicago Public Library....
"Thur" <a@spamless.z> wrote:
>....public art....
"Public"...?
What a pernicious euphemism for government.
michael
Mike1 wrote:
> michael <non...@mungo.com> wrote:
>
>>yeah, whatever...the vancouver jazz festival is just now winding up it's
>>10-day run and i am one satisfied little elitist, i guess... yesterday,
>>in a publicly funded theater i listened to evan parker, two violinists,
>>two stand-up bassists, and peggy lee on cello do a 50 minute
>>improvisation that sent me rapturous and many running to the door...
>
>
>
> If anybody let it be known that they weren't going to pay for all this
> rapture on your part, what would you do about it?
you care to rephrase that question in English? if you do, i'll give'er a
try...
michael
Dr.Matt
Mike1 <humphreys-remedial...@usfamily.net> wrote:
>"Thur" <a@spamless.z> wrote:
>
>>I cut this from your example.
>>'Serra's career continues to flourish, despite the controversy.
>>"I don't think it is the function of art to be pleasing," he comments
>>at the time. "Art is not democratic. It is not for the people." '
>
>
>Meanwhile, he's perfectly happy to accept a big, fat check's worth of
>stolen ("tax") loot for a public-works project that, in this case, was
>abject crap.
I'm always amused by people who call taxes "stolen loot" but try to
look patriotic at the same time.
Erik A. Mattila
What difference does it make, Pete? The point was that the public
wasn't part of the selection process. The point stands, and it's a good
example.
Erik
Peter T. Daniels
Are you some kind of right-winger, where the "facts" don't matter so
long as the "point" is made?
Patrick Powers
Yes, I think the modern classical world behaves as though though were
constructing a physics theory instead of making music. I think
seeing the science departments at the university getting more money
than they has warped their perspective. All the humanities seem to
have falling into this trap. Communication is despised as the mere
result of cultural conditioning, a Skinnerian idea easily refuted.
The ideal is "progress", a concept that I declare has little to do
with art. Does love show progress? Does worship show progress? Does
happiness show progress?
Dr.Matt
Interestingly enough, people have been leveling this exact critique against
classical musicians at least since Beethoven's time. And the interesting
thing is that in retrospect we can see that indeed love and worship and
happiness have indeed progressed in one direction or another over the last
few centuries. For instance: love as a form of dependence is no longer so
widespread.
Dr.Matt
Just to cite a famous example, a contemporaneous newspaper accused
Berlioz of promulgating a "sterile algebra."
Eusebius7
>Yes, I think the modern classical world behaves as though though were
>constructing a physics theory instead of making music.
This is actually a sad commentary on physics. Physics used to be musical --
take a look at Kepler.
>The ideal is "progress", a concept that I declare has little to do
>with art.
Actually, I don't buy that. I think that JS Bach would look at Mozart's
"Fantasy in Cm" or the fugue in Beethoven's "Hammerklavier" as "progress", and
I'm sure he would be delighted.
On the other hand, the notion that moving toward more and more arbitrariness in
art, which was touted as "progress", is poppycock. See
http://members.aol.com/abelard2/sberg.htm
eusebius7
Visit the scenic Davidsbuendler site:
http://members.aol.com/buendler
Mike1
wrote:
I refuse to pay it. If you knew where I banked, would you tatttle to the
IRS?
Mike1
>>Meanwhile, he's perfectly happy to accept a big, fat check's worth of
>>stolen ("tax") loot for a public-works project that, in this case, was
>>abject crap.
>
>I'm always amused by people who call taxes "stolen loot" but try to
>look patriotic at the same time.
Why?
(And: In what way was I "looking patriotic"?)
Erik A. Mattila
No, no, no...you've got it all wrong - the rightard is the one who spins
the issue around to create the sense of triumphing in argument. Perhaps
you're a wannabe librul, huh?
Samuel Vriezen
> The ideal is "progress", a concept that I declare has little to do
> with art. Does love show progress? Does worship show progress? Does
> happiness show progress?
But what do love, worship and happiness have to do with art?
--
samuel
concerten.free.fr
http://composers21.com/compdocs/vriezens.htm
Thur
"Samuel Vriezen" <sqv.do.not.spam@xs4all> wrote in message
news:40f2ca85$0$42417$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Everything. Considering this is a cross-posted thread to 4 newsgroups,
which artform do you consider NOT to be something to do with love,
worship or happiness?
Thur
Dr.Matt
All of them! And none of them! But the answers to the original
three questions is still yes, yes, and yes.
Samuel Vriezen
Religious art, obviously, has to do with worship. A love poem has to do
with love. A dance tune for a wedding party with happiness. Give any art
form the right context and bingo. If it's all context, then any artform
can also be political, philosophical, economical, scientific and - why
not? - related to progress.
Ryan Tanaka
I think we may see a reoccurence in "disposeable" music in the near
future. What artforms are doing the most successful now? Commercial
music used for instant gratification then thrown away shortly
thereafter. Mass production of music was something seen in the
post-baroque -> classical era so it's not necessarily a new idea
altogether.
A growing trend to make sense of this freedom, I think, is the current
trend in music towards eclecticism. Whoever can combine the most
influences into one coherent statement is the winner!
Ryan
> gruel'. but, as eaglebear say, fire that burn slow burn longer than
Jerry Kohl
> bennyfito...@hotmail.com (Benny Fitzoffheinseit) wrote in message news:<f40c70a.04062...@posting.google.com>...
>
> I think we may see a reoccurence in "disposeable" music in the near
> future. What artforms are doing the most successful now? Commercial
> music used for instant gratification then thrown away shortly
> thereafter. Mass production of music was something seen in the
> post-baroque -> classical era so it's not necessarily a new idea
> altogether.
>
> A growing trend to make sense of this freedom, I think, is the current
> trend in music towards eclecticism. Whoever can combine the most
> influences into one coherent statement is the winner!
That's one of the strangest definitions of "eclecticism" I've ever heard
in my life! Ordinarily it means "selective", but you've turned it on its
head to mean "indiscriminate"!!
--
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Phil Wood
"Jerry Kohl" <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:40F34B...@comcast.net...
That had me reaching for my dictionary as Ryan's language made sense to me -
though I am not sure I share his conclusion.
Eclectic - adj: Selecting or borrowing; choosing the best out of everything;
broad, the opposite of exclusive.
n: One who selects opinions from different systems esp
philosophy
Eclecticism - the practise of an eclectic.
(Chambers 20th Century Dictionary)
I still think Ryan's usage was apt.
Phil
Jerry Kohl
What, "Whoever can combine the most influences into one
coherent statement is the winner!"? I suppose the word "coherent"
might be a key term here, but I still don't see why quantity should
be valued over taste in selection.
Ryan Tanaka
Well at least from what I've heard in music that uses eclecticism it's
a combination of different styles and genres to create a new idea.
Not so much like John Cage where the output itself is chance derived,
but instead the input.
I dunno, I hear a lot of pieces that are sort of "look at this, I
combined styles x and y" together, and it's interesting for a while
but it leaves me with a sense of "so now what?" afterwards. There's a
lot of different styles out there, and combining two or three doesn't
seem all that much exciting compared to composers like Crumb,
Schnittke, or Gubaidulina where they incorporate so many things into
one that it sounds distinctly unique.
Ryan
Ryan Tanaka
Well I'm orignally from Hawaii, so it's a habit that don't
discriminate based on cultural taste. Hell, if I did, I wouldn't be
listening to that "weird" contemporary music right now...:)
Ryan
Jerry Kohl
I didn't say anything at all about *cultural* taste, or discrimination
based on same. I simply said "taste", as opposed to "quantity" of
"influences". It's rather like making a pizza. There is delight in
combining toppings, up to a point, but 36 indiscriminate ingredients
simply get in each others' way. It is precisely this indiscrimination
that produces the worst of "that 'weird' contemporary music".
Ryan Tanaka
Well after doing a little bit of experimentation, I've found that with
a little bit of analysis you can find similarities between various
genres an stack them together without losing its coherency.
Pitch material, for instance, can usually be highlighted by a
prominent mode that a certain culture might employ, but if you can
find similarities in pitch sets of two or more different styles, you
can amass them into a larger mode. Then whatever style you decide to
highlight in that case becomes a matter of emphasis of its original
pitch sets, but there are also plenty of places to "blur" them
together too.
Well, that's the theory, anyway.
Ryan
Jerry Kohl
> Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<40F4BE73...@comcast.net>...
>
> Well after doing a little bit of experimentation, I've found that with
> a little bit of analysis you can find similarities between various
> genres an stack them together without losing its coherency.
Yes, I can see that.
> Pitch material, for instance, can usually be highlighted by a
> prominent mode that a certain culture might employ, but if you can
> find similarities in pitch sets of two or more different styles, you
> can amass them into a larger mode. Then whatever style you decide to
> highlight in that case becomes a matter of emphasis of its original
> pitch sets, but there are also plenty of places to "blur" them
> together too.
>
> Well, that's the theory, anyway.
Sure. But where in all this is there a *preference* for maximizing the
number of different stylistic elements? Surely there must be some
point beyond which sensory overload sets in, and this has nothing to
do with the technical capability of finding connections between
different elements. In fact, it may be even the opposite since, the more
different material you cumulate the more likely you will have--for
example--all available pitches, and yet this is exactly the kind of
situation that creates incomprehensibility at the same time that it
maximises "coherence".
--
Dr.Matt
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Sure. But where in all this is there a *preference* for maximizing the
>number of different stylistic elements? Surely there must be some
>point beyond which sensory overload sets in, and this has nothing to
>do with the technical capability of finding connections between
>different elements. In fact, it may be even the opposite since, the more
>different material you cumulate the more likely you will have--for
>example--all available pitches, and yet this is exactly the kind of
>situation that creates incomprehensibility at the same time that it
>maximises "coherence".
And THAT is jolly good fun!
Jerry Kohl
> In article <40F57620...@comcast.net>,
> Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >Sure. But where in all this is there a *preference* for maximizing the
> >number of different stylistic elements? Surely there must be some
> >point beyond which sensory overload sets in, and this has nothing to
> >do with the technical capability of finding connections between
> >different elements. In fact, it may be even the opposite since, the more
> >different material you cumulate the more likely you will have--for
> >example--all available pitches, and yet this is exactly the kind of
> >situation that creates incomprehensibility at the same time that it
> >maximises "coherence".
>
> And THAT is jolly good fun!
Sure, it can be, as Charles Ives demonstrated repeatedly. Personally,
I find that after a while I grow a bit tired of sensory overload--
especially if I can't distinguish one sensory overload from the next.
I thank my lucky stars that Bernd Alois Zimmermann didn't use
the *same* pile-up-the-styles technique as Ives did.
Dr.Matt
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
>"Dr.Matt" wrote:
>
>> In article <40F57620...@comcast.net>,
>> Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >Sure. But where in all this is there a *preference* for maximizing the
>> >number of different stylistic elements? Surely there must be some
>> >point beyond which sensory overload sets in, and this has nothing to
>> >do with the technical capability of finding connections between
>> >different elements. In fact, it may be even the opposite since, the more
>> >different material you cumulate the more likely you will have--for
>> >example--all available pitches, and yet this is exactly the kind of
>> >situation that creates incomprehensibility at the same time that it
>> >maximises "coherence".
>>
>> And THAT is jolly good fun!
>
>Sure, it can be, as Charles Ives demonstrated repeatedly. Personally,
>I find that after a while I grow a bit tired of sensory overload--
>especially if I can't distinguish one sensory overload from the next.
>I thank my lucky stars that Bernd Alois Zimmermann didn't use
>the *same* pile-up-the-styles technique as Ives did.
Well, now, if we all used the same one, that wouldn't be as much fun.
Certainly the pile-up techniques of Penderecki's Capriccio for Violin
and Orchestra are quite different from those of Schoenberg's First Chamber
Symphony...
Jerry Kohl
> In article <40F58D17...@comcast.net>,
> Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >"Dr.Matt" wrote:
> >
> >> In article <40F57620...@comcast.net>,
> >> Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Sure. But where in all this is there a *preference* for maximizing the
> >> >number of different stylistic elements? Surely there must be some
> >> >point beyond which sensory overload sets in, and this has nothing to
> >> >do with the technical capability of finding connections between
> >> >different elements. In fact, it may be even the opposite since, the more
> >> >different material you cumulate the more likely you will have--for
> >> >example--all available pitches, and yet this is exactly the kind of
> >> >situation that creates incomprehensibility at the same time that it
> >> >maximises "coherence".
> >>
> >> And THAT is jolly good fun!
> >
> >Sure, it can be, as Charles Ives demonstrated repeatedly. Personally,
> >I find that after a while I grow a bit tired of sensory overload--
> >especially if I can't distinguish one sensory overload from the next.
> >I thank my lucky stars that Bernd Alois Zimmermann didn't use
> >the *same* pile-up-the-styles technique as Ives did.
>
> Well, now, if we all used the same one, that wouldn't be as much fun.
Exactly.
>
> Certainly the pile-up techniques of Penderecki's Capriccio for Violin
> and Orchestra are quite different from those of Schoenberg's First Chamber
> Symphony...
Hmm. I don't know the Penderecki particularly well, but I am reasonably
well-acquainted with the Schoenberg, and I don't recall that it employs
quotations or deliberate stylistic referents in the way that, say, Ives's
Concord Sonata does. Can you enlighten me here?
Dr.Matt
Neither of the above, but it is constantly quoting and stylistically
referring to itself on 15 layers at once!
Ryan Tanaka
Well I guess the idea is to "blur" the styles together so that even if
there's 30 different styles crammed into one, it will still be heard
as one idea. Sort of like a "well, that *sort* of sounds like
something I'm familiar with..." kind of effect.
Jerry Kohl
Sorta like Bach's 3rd Brandenburg Concerto, then? Or Brahms's
Second Symphony? Or Ockeghem's Requiem? Or Mozart's
Magic Flute? Or ... ?
Jerry Kohl
> Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<40F57620...@comcast.net>...
>
> Well I guess the idea is to "blur" the styles together so that even if
> there's 30 different styles crammed into one, it will still be heard
> as one idea. Sort of like a "well, that *sort* of sounds like
> something I'm familiar with..." kind of effect.
Oh, I understand what you are describing, but why is it "better", for
example, to have 50 different recognizable styles in, say, five minutes,
as opposed to only 30 different styles in the same amount of time?
--
Dr.Matt
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Oh, I understand what you are describing, but why is it "better", for
>example, to have 50 different recognizable styles in, say, five minutes,
>as opposed to only 30 different styles in the same amount of time?
When Babbitt was trying to explain musical academe to the engineering
faculty, terms like "efficiency" kept coming up again and again.
Dr.Matt
Samuel Vriezen
> Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<40F57620...@comcast.net>...
>
> Well I guess the idea is to "blur" the styles together so that even if
> there's 30 different styles crammed into one, it will still be heard
> as one idea. Sort of like a "well, that *sort* of sounds like
> something I'm familiar with..." kind of effect.
>
> Ryan
That's not particular to our time.
Samuel Vriezen
> Ryan Tanaka wrote:
>
>
>>Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<40F57620...@comcast.net>...
>>
>>Well I guess the idea is to "blur" the styles together so that even if
>>there's 30 different styles crammed into one, it will still be heard
>>as one idea. Sort of like a "well, that *sort* of sounds like
>>something I'm familiar with..." kind of effect.
>
>
> Oh, I understand what you are describing, but why is it "better", for
> example, to have 50 different recognizable styles in, say, five minutes,
> as opposed to only 30 different styles in the same amount of time?
Wasn't Ryan trying to satirise the present state of new music? I don't
get the impression he thinks it's better.
(I think the best way of combining a million styles is to play a single
short note on the piano. "This F is a serial chance-derived funky fugal
first theme blue note; it's also a quote from a Rachmaninov prelude")
Jerry Kohl
You think? Can you give me some concrete examples?
Jerry Kohl
> Jerry Kohl wrote:
>
> > Ryan Tanaka wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<40F57620...@comcast.net>...
> >>
> >>Well I guess the idea is to "blur" the styles together so that even if
> >>there's 30 different styles crammed into one, it will still be heard
> >>as one idea. Sort of like a "well, that *sort* of sounds like
> >>something I'm familiar with..." kind of effect.
> >
> >
> > Oh, I understand what you are describing, but why is it "better", for
> > example, to have 50 different recognizable styles in, say, five minutes,
> > as opposed to only 30 different styles in the same amount of time?
>
> Wasn't Ryan trying to satirise the present state of new music? I don't
> get the impression he thinks it's better.
Perhaps you're right. I took him at face value. Was I misled by lack of
a smiley? :-)
> (I think the best way of combining a million styles is to play a single
> short note on the piano. "This F is a serial chance-derived funky fugal
> first theme blue note; it's also a quote from a Rachmaninov prelude")
Brilliant! But wouldn't it be even better if you played only *half* of a
single short note? ;-)
Dr.Matt
Jerry Kohl
Let me rephrase the question: Can you give me some concrete
examples from within Schoenberg's First Chamber Symphony?
Samuel Vriezen
>>(I think the best way of combining a million styles is to play a single
>>short note on the piano. "This F is a serial chance-derived funky fugal
>>first theme blue note; it's also a quote from a Rachmaninov prelude")
>
> Brilliant! But wouldn't it be even better if you played only *half* of a
> single short note? ;-)
"This single sample, length 1/44100th of a second, is a clear reference
to all of music history and makes me the MOST POSTMODERN COMPOSER of
them all, now you beat that you Zorn git you!"
Ryan Tanaka
No satire here, I actually like contemporary music a lot. I've just
been trying to figure out what makes the composers I've stated above
sound so good to me (Crumb, Schnittke, Gubaidulina) and I'm convinced
that quantity has something to do it.
I mean there's lots and lots of pieces that do eclecticm of combining
two styles but they don't seem to fair too well in the long
run...maybe just because everyone's doing it.
Ryan
Ryan Tanaka
> Sorta, only Ever So Much More So!
Well the one piece that sticks out in my head the most is Berio's Sinfonia.
Jerry Kohl
The one piece that sticks out in your head because of what? I've looked and looked and looked in Schoenberg's
First Chamber Symphony, and I can't find Berio's Sinfonia in there anywhere. On the other hand, I wouldn't be
at all surprised to learn that there are bits of the Schoenberg inside the Berio. ;-)
Jerry Kohl
OK, fair enough. I'm not too keen on Schnittke or Gubaidulina, myself, and
on the other hand I don't find Crumb's music (which I like quite a lot more)
all that "eclectic", personally. If its quantity of references you're after, I
couldn't do better than to steer you toward Flo Menezes's Sinfonias
(1997-98), which is "exclusively formed by symphonic agglomerates of
the 20th century, which do not surpass the duration of about 2 or 3 seconds",
except for Stravinsky's Symphonies pour instruments a vent, "which were
entirely analysed and subsequently submitted to the utmost transformational
procedures" (according to the booklet with Panaroma CD 199.010.627,
"Música Maximalista, vol. 7"). Of course, the little fragments are thoroughly
assimilated, and so will not for the most part "stick out" like so many
bleeding chunks of undigested matter, but it is all the better for that, in my
opinion.
Dr.Matt
I have a single bit. No, wait. Half a bit. There's some uncertainty involved.
Ryan Tanaka
Thanks, I'll check them out. I'm also working on a improvised
recording that sort of exemplify what I'm trying to do in my
compositions, so when it gets done maybe I'll post them here.
Ryan