Pronunciation of "Mahler"
Adam Brown
A question of little importance, I know. But sometimes one MUST know such
things.
Thanks to all,
Adam
Steve Forrest
'Mall-er' is the only way I've ever heard it.
>A question of little importance, I know. But sometimes one MUST know such
>things.
Yes, I know the feeling.
-Steve
Margaret Mikulska
> Adam Brown <bro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
>
> 'Mall-er' is the only way I've ever heard it.
The way people try to render pronunciation using ASCII this would imply
pronouncing "Mall-" as in "shopping mall", which would be incorrect.
The open "a" is usually rendered in English-speaking newsgroups and
mailling lists as "ah", so actually the German spelling Mahler is in
itself the best pronunciation guide for English speakers (MAH-ler).
"Mail-er" is absolutely preposterous. Have you really heard that
yourself?
BTW, as far as German names and words are concerned, there is hardly
ever any doubt how to pronounce them. You don't even need to search for
concensus - any educated German speaker will give you the correct
pronunciation.
-Margaret
Bernard Hill
>I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
I've never heard either. (Or any of the 3, since in the UK "Mall" is
pronounced in two valid ways, like the French Mal, and also "Morl").
"Marler" is all I have ever heard.
Bernard Hill
Braeburn Software
Author of Music Publisher system
Music Software written by musicians for musicians
http://www.braeburn.co.uk
Selkirk, Scotland
01750 721854
+44 1750 721854
Raymond Hall
>I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
>
>things.
>
>Adam
>
The correct pronunciation for Mahler is MARLER. Rhymes with 'parlour'.
| Ray Hall: < hallr...@bigpond.com >
| Only my dogs really know the high notes - and they
| remain peacefully a'snoozin .......... /(-^-)\
| ~*~
| "My God! What has sound got to do with music!" (Essays p.84) Charles Ives
Adrian Hunter
>
> Adam Brown wrote:
> >I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
> >
> >A question of little importance, I know. But sometimes one MUST know such
> >things.
> >
> >
>
>
Alas, not true in my neck of the woods (among others) where the `r' in
parlour is most definitely pronounced!
MAH-LER is probably the most unambiguous way to render it.
Adrian
Luis Afonso
> I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
>
> A question of little importance, I know. But sometimes one MUST know such
> things.
>
> Thanks to all,
> Adam
The correct form is MAH-ler (with an open 'a').
My German and my months in Vienna had finally worth something... :)
Luis
--
------------------------------------------------------
Luis Miguel Afonso
Mozart Requiem Discography Homepage:
http://www.terravista.pt/portosanto/1090/req_disco.htm
------------------------------------------------------
David Bluestone
sfor...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Forrest) wrote:
> In article <6tse3h$ade$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> Adam Brown <bro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
>
> 'Mall-er' is the only way I've ever heard it.
It's Marlour, like parlour.
>
> >A question of little importance, I know. But sometimes one MUST know
> such
> >things.
>
> Yes, I know the feeling.
>
> -Steve
David
Samuel Steinemann
"Mahler" as German talking musicologist. But we've got the same problems
with the English/American composers. I.e. where is the emphasis in
"Purcell": Is it "Purcéll" or is it "Púrcell"?
Samuel
Bernard Hill
<adrian...@ed.ac.uk> writes
>
>Alas, not true in my neck of the woods (among others) where the `r' in
>parlour is most definitely pronounced!
According to the SOED there is no 'r' sound in parlour.
Just P - ah - L - <e>
(<e> = neutral vowel)
So it should be pronounced to rhyme with Mahler <g>.
Adrian Hunter
I would go for PurCELL, but then I'm a Scot so I wouldn't know how to
pronounce anything properly ;-)
--
Adrian
Benjamin Maso
Luis Afonso wrote in message <360235C9...@hotmail.com>...
>Adam Brown wrote:
>
>> I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
>>
such
>> things.
>>
>> Adam
>
>The correct form is MAH-ler (with an open 'a').
Quite right. But what does it matter? If a Dutch name - almost any Dutch
name - is properly pronounced, in most countries it sounds snobbish of
ridiculous. So when I am in England, I pronounce Van Gogh for instance in
such a way that poor Vincent himself wouldn't have recognized his own name.
But let's discuss Frans Bruggen, Mengelberg, Van Beinum, Peter Schat or
Herreweghe for a start.
Benjo
Frank Eggleston
> It's funny observing Americans talking about the pronunciation of
> "Mahler" as German talking musicologist. But we've got the same problems
> with the English/American composers. I.e. where is the emphasis in
> "Purcell": Is it "Purcéll" or is it "Púrcell"?
>
> Samuel
I'm informed that the accent is on the first syllable, as in "Your purse'll
drop to the floor if the strap breaks."
Frank Eggleston
--
"Must ... control ... fist ... of ... death!!"
--- Alice, from "Dilbert"
LouFiddler
writes:
>Samuel Steinemann wrote:
>
>> It's funny observing Americans talking about the pronunciation of
>> "Mahler" as German talking musicologist. But we've got the same problems
>> with the English/American composers. I.e. where is the emphasis in
>> "Purcell": Is it "Purcéll" or is it "Púrcell"?
>>
>> Samuel
>
>I'm informed that the accent is on the first syllable, as in "Your purse'll
>drop to the floor if the strap breaks."
Not in Essex it ain't. We reserve the pronunciation "purse'll" for washing
powder.
from
--
Louisa Hennessy
Essex, UK, Europe
Colin Rosenthal
Adrian Hunter <adrian...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>I would go for PurCELL, but then I'm a Scot so I wouldn't know how to
>pronounce anything properly ;-)
Ah, pronounced to rhyme with "yersel".
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
Keith Edgerley
>
> It's funny observing Americans talking about the pronunciation of
> "Mahler" as German talking musicologist. But we've got the same problems
> with the English/American composers. I.e. where is the emphasis in
> "Purcell": Is it "Purcéll" or is it "Púrcell"?
>
> Samuel
but I know that Americans congenitally pronounce any proper name ending
in two consonants with the stress on the last syllable, as in
BerNARD.Anyone brought up in England finds this reprehensible. An
American once hosted the English What's My Line in the 1950s and
insisted in pronouncing one of the regular panellists' names as Lady
Isobel BarNETT. It caused a huge outcry.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
Colin Rosenthal
Keith Edgerley <keith.e...@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>It's quite definitely the second, i.e. the stress on the first syllable,
>but I know that Americans congenitally pronounce any proper name ending
>in two consonants with the stress on the last syllable, as in
>BerNARD.Anyone brought up in England finds this reprehensible. An
>American once hosted the English What's My Line in the 1950s and
>insisted in pronouncing one of the regular panellists' names as Lady
>Isobel BarNETT. It caused a huge outcry.
Maybe he thought it was the same pattern as Simon BarKOCHBA :-)
But seriously, I've never heard Purcell pronounced with the emphasis on
the first syllable, but then I've never heard Handel pronounced Haendel.
Steve Forrest
>> >I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
>>
>
>pronouncing "Mall-" as in "shopping mall", which would be incorrect.
>The open "a" is usually rendered in English-speaking newsgroups and
>mailling lists as "ah", so actually the German spelling Mahler is in
>itself the best pronunciation guide for English speakers (MAH-ler).
You are of course correct, Margaret (as usual).
I am not familiar with the ASCII phonetic conventions. I was just guessing
that "Mall-er" was this person's way of representing "MAH-ler".
Furthermore, being from the midwest, I have a tendency to conflate
certain vowel sounds, and the distinction you made did not even
occur to me.
-Steve
David Perkins
pronounce it properly." --Prof. Henry Higgins
Colin Rosenthal wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:46:55 +0100,
> Adrian Hunter <adrian...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >I would go for PurCELL, but then I'm a Scot so I wouldn't know how to
> >pronounce anything properly ;-)
>
> Ah, pronounced to rhyme with "yersel".
>
> --
> Colin Rosenthal
> High Altitude Observatory
> Boulder, Colorado
> rose...@hao.ucar.edu
--
David M. Perkins
Assistant Director, University of Illinois Press
Director of Marketing
e-mail: d-p...@uiuc.edu
UIP Website: http://www.press.uillinois.edu
Alec Bass
Alec
Adam Brown wrote in message <6tse3h$ade$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
>
Michael Kagalenko
]It is pronounced MAAAH-ler (the first syllable rhymes with "ah" )
Really ? I thought Mahler is really pronounced "YAAAAAWN !"
;-)
Raymond Hall
>In article <36022DA3...@ed.ac.uk>, Adrian Hunter
><adrian...@ed.ac.uk> writes
>>
>>Alas, not true in my neck of the woods (among others) where the `r' in
>>parlour is most definitely pronounced!
>
>According to the SOED there is no 'r' sound in parlour.
>
>Just P - ah - L - <e>
>
>(<e> = neutral vowel)
>
>So it should be pronounced to rhyme with Mahler <g>.
>
>Bernard Hill
Actually, I was mainly trying to help with regard to the pronunciation of
the first syllable. I do realise that there are parts of the world that roll
their 'r's. I just knew a Scottish response was forthcoming. But down here
in Australia, and the US, and Hampshire where I originate from, we are
spared this extra effort ;-)
Only joshin'.
al...@rev.net
>Quite right. But what does it matter? If a Dutch name - almost any Dutch
>name - is properly pronounced, in most countries it sounds snobbish of
>ridiculous.
Good for you! Keep it up!
--Spud DuBoise <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/couchpotato>
al...@rev.net
>Adam Brown wrote in message <6tse3h$ade$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>>I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
>>
>>A question of little importance, I know. But sometimes one MUST know such
>>things.
>>
>>Thanks to all,
>>Adam
>>
>The correct pronunciation for Mahler is MARLER. Rhymes with 'parlour'.
No way. It only has one "R".
"M" as in English.
"A" like the "O" in "modern".
"H" silent, indicating lengthening of the vowel.
"L" as in "let", with the front of the tongue, not with the back of
the tongue as in "law".
"E" as in "let".
"R" with a slight flap, not quite a trill. In Silesia, it was probably
articulated with the front of the tongue, although the uvula would not
be wrong.
Something like "MAH-lehr" would be close.
--Spud DuBoise <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/couchpotato>
Frank Eggleston
I think we've got a case of what GBShaw described as "two peoples divided by a
common language". In my part of the world (which stretches from California to
Virginia), we pronounce the "R" (both of them) in "parlor" (which we spell
without a "u"). I do remember that many years ago, on my first trip to Boston,
I was advised by a nice New England lady in the airport at the traveler's
information desk, in reference to subway routing, that I should "take the cahh
to Pahhk Street". As for the pronunciation of the composer's name, like
everybody else, I pronounce it the way it's spelled.
Christopher R.G Timson
Deryk Barker
[...]
: No way. It only has one "R".
:
: "M" as in English.
:
: "A" like the "O" in "modern".
Hello?
I suppose I can't blame you, as N American popular culture seem
incapable of recognising that there is anywhere else on the planet
with a different identity, but there are places where an 'o' and an
'a' are sounded differently - Britain for one.
Hence the confusing (initially for me) different transliterations of
the Greek souvlaki:
kebab Gr Britain
kabob N American
--
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | |
|phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |
Margaret Mikulska
>
> "Raymond Hall" <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> >The correct pronunciation for Mahler is MARLER. Rhymes with 'parlour'.
>
By no stretch of imagination. No way. It's closer to the Italian "a",
only longer.
> "E" as in "let".
Nope, wrong. The point is that in "Mahler", just as "a" and "h" have to
be read (i.e., perceived) together before you can decide how to
pronounce "a", both "e" and "r" (in the final position) have to be read
together. Final "er" is pronounced as one sound.
> "R" with a slight flap, not quite a trill. In Silesia, it was probably
> articulated with the front of the tongue, although the uvula would not
> be wrong.
>
> Something like "MAH-lehr" would be close.
What, in this transcription, is indicated by the second "h"?
-Margaret
Raymond Hall
been rebuttals from Scotland, about the trilling of 'R's, and similar
rebuttals from Spud duBoise.
Myself, and as yourself have confirmed also, have given the normal
pronunciation for the vast majority of English speaking people. Those who
wish to reply with their pedantic notions can pronounce Mahler 'their' way -
I will pronounce it 'my' way, and have been perfectly understood by all ever
since I became acquainted with Mahler. Not only that, I worked in Graz in
Austria for quite a period, and was perfectly understood by them also. And
that will do for me.
Bernard Hill
<miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> writes
>
>Nope, wrong. The point is that in "Mahler", just as "a" and "h" have to
>be read (i.e., perceived) together before you can decide how to
>pronounce "a", both "e" and "r" (in the final position) have to be read
>together. Final "er" is pronounced as one sound.
Agreed. It's usually called "the neutral vowel", a sort of gentle "uh"
sound, as in "her", the 'ear' in "earn", the 'ir' in "bird" (not the
Scottish rolled R! - "beRRRd")
Jaun...@mailcity.com
"Adam Brown" <bro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> A question of little importance, I know. But sometimes one
> MUST know such things.
It is pronounced "mawler" (like "bad dog").
jT
---------
Jaune Tom
Chief Mischief Officer,
Rodent Consultants, Int.
Main and Wall Streets
Catskill, NY 12414, USA
Jaun...@MailCity.Com
phone: 1-800-FOR-CATS
fax: 1-800-FOR-RATS
------------------------
Better Than a Maws Trap!
------------------------
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Opus47
According to Lynn Vaughn on CNN she pronounces Mahler - Mailer.
So I guess this is the official media pronounciation.
I always pronounced Mahler - Maller. Like you are patron of the shopping mall
- a maller.
(bad pun, but true!!!)
Fred
EPalladino
think she has him confused with Norman Mailer? :) Beth
Opus47 wrote in message <19980924004848...@ng113.aol.com>...
Malcolm Macgregor
>It's quite definitely the second, i.e. the stress on the first syllable,
>but I know that Americans congenitally pronounce any proper name ending
>in two consonants with the stress on the last syllable, as in
>BerNARD.Anyone brought up in England finds this reprehensible.
reprehensible, all that I find reprehensible is language snobbery.
Vic Filler
>"Mail-er" is absolutely preposterous. Have you really heard that
>yourself?
Well, we live to learn, don't we?
It seems to me a few years ago there was a ball player (Atlanta?) named
Mahler--pronounced "mailer."
Vic
Steve
I have no idea which of our English cousins believes that we colonials
stress the last syllable of names ending in 2 consonants, but it just
isn't so. Witness the names Irving, Robert, Ronald, Leonard, Edward,
etc. I have never heard these pronounced with the stress on the last
syllable. As a matter of fact, Bernard is the only example I can think
of that is pronounced with the stress on the last syllable.
Steve Wolk
Steve
His first name was Bruce, not Gustav. This case (Mahler) is only one
example of words spelled the same and pronounced differently.
Steve Wolk
Opus47
>>"Mail-er" is absolutely preposterous. Have you really heard that
>>yourself?
>
I heard it pronounced that way on CNN.
Something of Mahler's was being auctioned off. It was one of those 15 second
stories that had no video. Lynn Vaughn said "Mailer" and I thought to myself
"what kind of world do we live in?"
Fred
I. Neill Reid
>Speaking of pronunciation and the British, I have always found it ironic
>that the BBC has a massive tome instructing their announcers on how to
>pronounce all the unwieldy names ("It's spelt 'luxury yacht,' but it's
>pronounced 'throat wobbler mangrove.'"), and yet when it comes to
>foreign languages with simple, consistent rules, they just say whatever
>they feel like.
Actually, in the good old days they used to have a substantial
staff devoted precisely to foreign pronounciation. You can thank
Thatcher and the culture-loving Tories for its demise
Neill Reid - i...@dowland.caltech.edu
>Combining three of the most egregious, I always
>half-hoped to hear a reference to "nuke-u-lar apart-hayed in
>nick-a-rag-you-ah."
>--Kip Will-yums
Keith Edgerley
>
> >It's quite definitely the second, i.e. the stress on the first syllable,
> >but I know that Americans congenitally pronounce any proper name ending
> >in two consonants with the stress on the last syllable, as in
> >BerNARD.Anyone brought up in England finds this reprehensible.
> As someone brought up in England I would like to say I do not find this
> reprehensible, all that I find reprehensible is language snobbery.
Strange statement. It's called begging the question, or arguing in a
circle. Snobbery
by definition is reprehensible. It is what we call a pejorative word.
The interesting point here is that people who object to being told that
their
pronunciations are recent innovations introduced out of false analogy
or from a basic insecurity in their mother tongue, which means that any
word
that looks unfamiliar is pronounced as if it were foreign, immediately
start slinging accusations of "snobbery" around. The kindest comment is
that this is
an immature response to the cultural facts of life. It also has
overtones of 'teacher doesn't know everything' and 'my opinion, however
uninformed, is as good as yours.' In other words, a cop-out.
One of the funniest of these mispronunciations is 'makko' for 'macho' -
yes folks,
this is a common British mispronunciation of the Spanish word which no
doubt the person
I am answering would say is perfectly valid if he wants to use it - that
I once heard
perpetrated even by the respected telepersonality Jon Snow chairing a
conference session in Berlin before 700 people. But even Jon Snow saying
it doesn't make it right.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
Keith Edgerley
>
> Malcolm Macgregor wrote:
> >
> > >It's quite definitely the second, i.e. the stress on the first syllable,
> > >but I know that Americans congenitally pronounce any proper name ending
> > >in two consonants with the stress on the last syllable, as in
> > >BerNARD.Anyone brought up in England finds this reprehensible.
> > As someone brought up in England I would like to say I do not find this> reprehensible, all that I find reprehensible is language snobbery.
>
> stress the last syllable of names ending in 2 consonants, but it just
> isn't so. Witness the names Irving, Robert, Ronald, Leonard, Edward,
> etc. I have never heard these pronounced with the stress on the last
> syllable. As a matter of fact, Bernard is the only example I can think
>
> Steve Wolk
You're right, of course. Mea culpa. The tendency for speakers of
American English
is to stress the last syllable of proper names ending a double
consonant, i.e. tt or ll, even perhaps ss.
This does seem to have spilled over onto Bernard, though. No English
English-speaker
would naturally say BernARD - unless he has "caught" the pronunciation
from US films or TV programs.
None of this invalidates my frequently advanced contention that
Americans on the whole speak and write better English than the Brits.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
Cathy and Kip
that the BBC has a massive tome instructing their announcers on how to
pronounce all the unwieldy names ("It's spelt 'luxury yacht,' but it's
pronounced 'throat wobbler mangrove.'"), and yet when it comes to
foreign languages with simple, consistent rules, they just say whatever
LouFiddler
In article <360D6B...@bluewin.ch>, Keith Edgerley
<keith.e...@bluewin.ch> writes:
This is a scurrilous lie - you have obviously never heard Rab C. Nesbitt.
--
Louisa Hennessy
Essex, UK, Europe
ckm...@sumter.net
ancestry just like Gustav Mahler ("maaahhh-ler"). One name has been
"Americanized" and the other has not. Just like in my little state of South
Carolina, there is an areas in the center of the state known as the "Dutch
Fork." The people who fist settled this area were all from five GERMAN cities,
and the areas is really the "Deutsch Fork." Today, it is the "Dutch Fork," but
nobody from there ever came from Amsterdam.
Cheers,
Charles K. Moss
In article <360BF6...@erols.com>,
sjw...@erols.com wrote:
> Vic Filler wrote:
> >
> > In article <3601E3...@silvertone.princeton.edu>,
miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu wrote:
> >
> > >"Mail-er" is absolutely preposterous. Have you really heard that
> > >yourself?
> >
> > Well, we live to learn, don't we?
> >
> > It seems to me a few years ago there was a ball player (Atlanta?) named
> > Mahler--pronounced "mailer."
> >
> > Vic
>
> His first name was Bruce, not Gustav. This case (Mahler) is only one
> example of words spelled the same and pronounced differently.
>
> Steve Wolk
> ‰
Classical9
MAH-ler
PUR-cell
- Jerry (JER-ret)
Samuel Steinemann
What about Saint-Saëns?
Do you pronounce the 's' at the very end of 'Saëns'?
How do you pronounce the 'ë' in 'Saëns'?
Are there any French experts here?
Samuel
Alexander Pensky
Cathy and Kip wrote in message <360D92...@NOSPAMvisi.net>...
>Combining three of the most egregious, I always
>half-hoped to hear a reference to "nuke-u-lar apart-hayed in
>nick-a-rag-you-ah."
... and how do *you* pronounce "apartheid" ?
Art Vandelay
means it is it's own syllable, like Zaļre is pronounced "Zye -
EER"...So I think it is probably something like (with that French
accent)
Sahn Sah - en (the 'n's being hardly pronounced through the nose, like
the French do)
But I don't know...There is a French expert in the group, though, so
you should hope she responds! :)
On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:46:21 +0100, Samuel Steinemann
<s.stei...@bluewin.ch> spoke with an unheard of eloquence and
grace:
>One more:
>
>What about Saint-Saėns?
> Do you pronounce the 's' at the very end of 'Saėns'?
> How do you pronounce the 'ė' in 'Saėns'?
Margaret Mikulska
> What about Saint-Saëns?
> Do you pronounce the 's' at the very end of 'Saëns'?
Yes.
> How do you pronounce the 'ë' in 'Saëns'?
You don't think of it separately. The name is pronounced with a nasal
/ah/; I would render it here as /sahngs/, with "ng" as in, say, "sang"
or "sung".
-Margaret
Margaret Mikulska
>
> I believe that in French if there are umlauts (dots) above letters, it
> EER"...So I think it is probably something like (with that French
> accent)
In general, you're right. This diacritical mark is called diaeresis (in
English) or trema (in French) - it's not an umlaut, because it doesn't,
strictly speaking, change the sound of the vowel itself. Saint-Saens's
name, however, is an exception. (Zaire
is pronounced /zah-eer/, as the diaeresis indicates.)
-Margaret
Cathy and Kip
Like it's spelled. A-part-hide. Accent on middle syllable.
Before your post, I had assumed that pronouncing a Germanic word like it
was an English word was a mistake of some kind, but I see my American
Heritage dictionary gives both pronunciation, with "hade" first.
This can mean one of two possible things: (1) Afrikaans has some English
influence in some words, so I'm wrong, or (2) Enough people said it
wrong that now their way is right, which ties in with comments I made
elsewhere about 'prescriptive' vs 'descriptive' grammar, and I am now
hoist on my own petard.
Should I apologize to the BBC, or just shrug eloquently and move on?
--Kip Williams
ps: Nah, why apologize. They still can't pronounce Spanish.
Frank Eggleston
No, but you should apologize to William Shakespeare. It's "hoist WITH one's
own petard", or, roughly, blown up with one's own grenade. A frequent
misquote, which brings out the pedant in me.
Frank Eggleston
--
Public media should not contain explicit or implied descriptions of
sex acts. Our society should be purged of the perverts who
provide the media with pornographic material while pretending it has
some redeeming social value under the public's 'right to know.'
-- Kenneth Starr, 1987, _Sixty Minutes_ interview with Diane Sawyer
Keith Edgerley
>
> I believe that in French if there are umlauts (dots) above letters, it
> means it is it's own syllable, like Zaïre is pronounced "Zye -
> EER"...So I think it is probably something like (with that French
> accent)
> the French do)
> But I don't know...There is a French expert in the group, though, so
> you should hope she responds! :)
>
> On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:46:21 +0100, Samuel Steinemann
> <s.stei...@bluewin.ch> spoke with an unheard of eloquence and
> grace:
>
> >One more:
> >
> > Do you pronounce the 's' at the very end of 'Saëns'?
> >
> >
> >Samuel
German expression meaning sound-change. What the umlaut actually is, is
the letter 'e' in old German handwriting, written over the top of the
vowel in question. That is why it is perfectly permissible in German to
replace an umlaut by an e AFTER the vowel, as in Fuehrer, Mueller.
Unlaut or included 'e' - both are valid.
The diaeresis as used in English and French (Fr. tréma) signals the fact
that what looks like a diphthong or, really, a digraph, is supposed to
be treated as two separate vowels. In the case of Saint-Saëns, however,
the 'a' in the second half is elided so that the effect is of one nasal
vowel.
The final 's' in Saint-Saëns is pronounced.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
jzydek
off) told me that the s at the end of Saens IS pronounced, and when he said
it, the n was nasalized (as properly explained in an earlier post), so it
sounded something like Sa(d) -- like you're saying Sad in English and leave
off the d, Sawz -- well close to that anyway (but you have to sound a little
nasal and Frenchy to make it come out right!)
June
P.S. How are some of you typing the umlaut over the 'e' in Saens? I don't
see one on my Gateway keyboard.
Dan Szymborski
> My friend, Philippe Simon from France (whom I call Phil just to piss him
> off) told me that the s at the end of Saens IS pronounced, and when he said
> it, the n was nasalized (as properly explained in an earlier post), so it
> sounded something like Sa(d) -- like you're saying Sad in English and leave
> off the d, Sawz -- well close to that anyway (but you have to sound a little
> nasal and Frenchy to make it come out right!)
> see one on my Gateway keyboard.
ė = alt-0235
--
Dan Szymborski
Cze...@erols.com
"If Beethoven had been killed in a plane crash at the age of 22,
it would have changed the history of music...and of aviation
-Tom Stoppard
"With me, things never turn out as I wish, but only as is ordained
for me-as I must." -Anton Webern
Cathy and Kip
> No, but you should apologize to William Shakespeare. It's "hoist WITH one's own petard", or, roughly, blown up with one's own grenade. A frequent misquote, which brings out the pedant in me.
Who says I was quoting Shaxpur? I just said I was hoist on my own
petard. Anyway, Slick Willie said "petar," not "petard."
--Scholarly Kip Williams
Cathy and Kip
> ë = alt-0235
Follow-up question: where can I get a handy-dandy table of all those
special characters? I could sure use one.
--Kip Williams
David_U
If you are using MS Word go to insert, symbol.
You can also make a new menu or insert a sub menu if you
have Word 97.
then you can selct directly.
**************************************
* From the Spammish Inquisition *
* Not Lumber Cartel Unit 75 [TINLC] *
* Del.& from address e=k. *
* robertstech.com/gallery/page13.htm *
**************************************
Frank Eggleston
Good catch. Now that my books are partly unpacked, I looked it up -- both Folger and Arden give "petard", but Arden notes that Q2 has "petar". Ben Jonson used "petarde". Arden, which is usually
my chief authority, says that "petard", the "modern" form, is preferable. At any rate, the quibble was on the preposition, not the explosive. Words, words, words.
As for me, "This counsellor//is now most still, most secret, and most grave//who was in life a foolish prating knave." ;-)
Frank
Leroy Curtis
<cdo...@NOSPAMvisi.net> writes
>Dan Szymborski wrote:
>
>> ë = alt-0235
>
>Follow-up question: where can I get a handy-dandy table of all those
>special characters? I could sure use one.
>
find a program called Character Map. Open this, and you will find all
these characters (you will need to change the font in the drop-down menu
in the top of the window to whatever font you are using in your
document). You can either copy a character to the clipboard and then
paste it into the document you are working on, or place your cursor back
into your active document and then press the combination of keys shown
when you highlighted the character you want.
HTH
--
Regards
Leroy Curtis
Please replace "nospam" with "baram" in my address if you wish to
reply by Email
Cathy and Kip
wrote; we have to count up all the authorities and take a poll. It was
lucky for me I went to Bartlett's Quotations first, instead of taking a
chance on an edition that might have backed "petard" instead.
--Kip Williams
(ps: Come to think of it, I said "petard" first. I guess I lose
automatically for taking both sides of the question. Curses, hoist
again!)
Derek Haslam
jzydek <jzy...@gateway.net> wrote:
> My friend, Philippe Simon from France (whom I call Phil just to piss him
> off) told me that the s at the end of Saens IS pronounced, and when he said
> it, the n was nasalized (as properly explained in an earlier post), so it
> sounded something like Sa(d) -- like you're saying Sad in English and leave
> off the d, Sawz -- well close to that anyway (but you have to sound a little
> nasal and Frenchy to make it come out right!)
> June
> P.S. How are some of you typing the umlaut over the 'e' in Saens? I don't
> see one on my Gateway keyboard.
Maybe you don't need a special key on the keyboard to do it. Does
this appear correctly? Saint-Saëns. Try ALT-235 (on numeric pad).
That's not the way I did it, BTW, it but it's probably what you'd
have to do on a PC.
(As an afterthought, when I posted that my newsreader protested about the ë in the header!)
Derek
--
__ __ __ __ __
/ \ | ||__ |__)/ | | |_ Derek Haslam: Acorn Computer Enthusiast
\_\/ |__||__ | \\__ |__| __| que...@argonet.co.uk
\ Mastery of the rules is a pre-requisite for creatively breaking them.
Deryk Barker
: Speaking of pronunciation and the British, I have always found it ironic
: that the BBC has a massive tome instructing their announcers on how to
: pronounce all the unwieldy names ("It's spelt 'luxury yacht,' but it's
: pronounced 'throat wobbler mangrove.'"), and yet when it comes to
: foreign languages with simple, consistent rules, they just say whatever
: they feel like.
Where did you get this idea from? Unless things have changed in the
last decade, the BBC is very particular about pronunciation of foreign
words.
--
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | |
|phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |
al...@rev.net
>Actually, it is the SAME name. Bruce Mahler ("mail-er") is of Austro/German
>ancestry just like Gustav Mahler ("maaahhh-ler").
Not the comedian Bruce Mahler. When he appeared on TV in "Fridays",
the announcer pronounced his name "MAH-lrr".
--Spud DuBoise <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/couchpotato>
Donald Phillipson
Leaving Mahler & Purcell, Alexander Pensky wrote:
>>
>> ... and how do *you* pronounce "apartheid" ?
>
> Like it's spelled. A-part-hide. Accent on middle syllable.
Cathy and Kip (cdo...@NOSPAMvisi.net) writes:
> Before your post, I had assumed that pronouncing a Germanic word like it
> was an English word was a mistake of some kind, but I see my American
> Heritage dictionary gives both pronunciation, with "hade" first.
>
> This can mean one of two possible things: (1) Afrikaans has some English
> influence in some words, so I'm wrong, or (2) Enough people said it
> wrong that now their way is right, which ties in with comments I made
> elsewhere about 'prescriptive' vs 'descriptive' grammar, and I am now
This thread omits the general rules:
1. Pronunciation is relative to language:
thus loan-words borrowed by one language from another usually
follow the borrower's habitual patterns when used by the borrower.
E.g. French is generally an unstressed language (where stress
may be used for oratorical effect, but does not govern meaning)
while English is stressed (i.e. meaning is functionally indicated
by the conventionally standardized placement of stress.) Thus
French and English pronunciation of "naive" are significantly
different.
--But not all loan-words follow this rule, e.g. English
"double-entendre" is pronounced in French style, as if to
italicize it for special emphasis.
2. Personal names are not nowadays obliged follow this convention
(of conforming to the style of the borrower's language.)
They used to. In Britain it used to be normal to pronounce the
Dutch painter "Van Goff" and the Spanish author "Servantese."
But contemporary influences (notably broadcasting) encourage
native pronunciation, "Van Ghogh" (not Van Go) and "Thervuntez."
3. In Dutch, "apartheid" simply means segregation, and is
pronounced "apart-hate" i.e. "-heid" is correctly pronounced
in Dutch like "hate" in English. The vocal similarity makes
it easy for English to adopt Dutch words (except only those
with totally non-English vowels like "ui" or consonants like
Dutch G.)
4. The main cultural difference between American and British
English is that Britain's tradition antedates printing and
thus rules for spelling. So that there is in Britain an
ancient habit of constraining loan words to English style,
notoriously including proper names, thus Beauchamp as "beecham"
and Tagliaferro as "tolliver." Hence the Monty Python jokes.
The linguistic culture in American English was always
oriented to print (rather than oral tradition) as the basis
of authority. Thus American English commonly pronounces
every vowel in correct spelling, as in "lavatory" which
the English say as "lavatry". The difference is not a
strict rule, e.g. most English agree the common "lie-bree"
for library is wrong, and that the word ought to have three
syllables. A favourite indicator is "laboratory." Americans
usually give this 4 syllables rather than the possible 5,
but stress the first as "LAB-ra-to-ree" while English stress
the second "la-BOR-a-tri". Cf. earliest remarks about
functional stress in English.
5. Professional jargon, as in music, sports, engineering
etc. is nowadays the commonest channel for loan-words, hence
adds another layer, but this post is too long already.
--
| Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs, |
| Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734 |
Bernard Hill
<ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes
>
>5. Professional jargon, as in music, sports, engineering
>etc. is nowadays the commonest channel for loan-words, hence
>adds another layer, but this post is too long already.
It was, however, very interesting. Thank you.
Bernard Hill
Braeburn Software
Author of Music Publisher system
Music Software written by musicians for musicians
http://www.braeburn.co.uk
Selkirk, Scotland
01750 721854
+44 1750 721854
Byrnefp
The BBC has a full time, 24/7 "pronunciation unit" which is available to all
its correspodents around the world and is staffed round the clock. They are
fanatical about it (assuming that the announcers bother to check).
I saw this on 60 Minutes some years ago and it was quite amazing. The
lengths to which they went were not unlike what London cabbies go through in
learning "the knowlege."
Frank
Steve
This thread was in reference to the Atlanta Braves pitcher, Bruce
Mahler, who pronounces his name "mailer". And whatever happened to the
comedic Bruce Mahler? I remember a very funny flick he did playing a
Jekyl/Hyde type doctor. Can't remember the title.
Steve Wolk
al...@rev.net
>The final 's' in Saint-Sa=EBns is pronounced.
Right, but how do you pronounce the first syllable correctly? I
understand the vowel is something like the "e" in "sent", nasalized
less than in Portuguese. Any advice?
--Spud DuBoise <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music/tuning.html>
Donald Nitz
Adam Brown wrote:
> I've heard "Mail-er" and "Mall-er". What's the consensus?
>
> A question of little importance, I know. But sometimes one MUST know such
> things.
>
> Thanks to all,
> Adam
If you want to pronounce it absolutely correctly in German (like a certain
classical music radio personality that we all know), you'll have to place the
"l" in the front of the mouth, and don't swallow it like many Americans
will. The "a" will sound a bit more open with an "ah" inflection. Say
"malll" (swallowed "l"), then "Mahl" (tongue just behind the teeth) and
you'll understand the difference.
Cathy and Kip
> Where did you get this idea from? Unless things have changed in the
> last decade, the BBC is very particular about pronunciation of foreign
> words.
I got it from direct observation. I have heard voices on National Public
Radio in the USA who identify themselves as BBC reporters and say
"Nick-a-rag-you-ah" and suchlike, however I don't think I've heard them
say it lately. Could be the problem has fixed itself by now. Chances
are, this whole digression in the thread belongs in 'classic radio
howlers' anyway.
--Kip Williams
Cathy and Kip
> This thread omits the general rules:
All right, no more omitting general rules. Your post brought me back to
the enjoyable days of my Linguistics class. Enjoyable or not, you
apparently retained more!
Nothing really to disagree with in your points, though I don't know why
they were needed, as I had already conceded that there are two ways to
pronounce 'apartheid.' Still, an interesting discussion; thanks.
--Kip Williams
al...@rev.net
>The vowel sound in "Saint" is pronounced like the French word for wine
>"vin".
I don't know what that means. I don't speak French. I can read a
little. Is it like the "o" in "Cape Cod", but nasalized?
--Spud DuBoise <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/couchpotato>
al...@rev.net
The last time I saw Bruce Mahler, the comedian, he played a rabbi on
Seinfeld, living in Elaine Benes's apartment building. In that role,
he was reunited with two co-stars of "Fridays", Michael "Kramer"
Richards and writer Larry David.
--Spud DuBoise <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/couchpotato>
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
Samuel Steinemann wrote:
> One more:
>
> What about Saint-Saëns?
> Do you pronounce the 's' at the very end of 'Saëns'?
> How do you pronounce the 'ë' in 'Saëns'?
>
> Are there any French experts here?
>
> Samuel
What no-one mentioned here is that, technically, the "e" in Saint-Saens
(sorry, can't do diacriticals on e) IS pronounced -- in the French
manner, as an "ah". The "a" before it is ever so imperceptibly broader
so that, in speaking quickly, the two form a liaison and are almost
indistinguishable. The same (but usually more distinctly pronounced)
occurs with the city "Caen". And, yes (as Keith Edgerley pointed out),
the final "s" is pronounced. So, the precisely enunciated name would
include a nasal "Sa-ahns"
--
Best regards,
Con
--
To reply, please remove anti-spam asterisk from return address
**************************************************************
"Mozart is too easy for beginners and too difficult for artists"
-- Artur Schnabel
**************************************************************
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
ckm...@sumter.net wrote:
> Actually, it is the SAME name. Bruce Mahler ("mail-er") is of Austro/German
> ancestry just like Gustav Mahler ("maaahhh-ler"). One name has been
> "Americanized" and the other has not.
So, "Bruce" is the English translation of "Gustav"?
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
Cathy and Kip wrote:
> I always
> half-hoped to hear a reference to "nuke-u-lar apart-hayed in
> nick-a-rag-you-ah."
Well, one that stumps me (in that I can't discern a clearly correct
pronunciation, à la "To-mey-to/To-mah-to") is the British pronunciation of
the car and cat "jaguar" (which they cal a "jag-you-are")
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
> Before your post, I had assumed that pronouncing a Germanic word like it
> was an English word was a mistake of some kind, but I see my American
> Heritage dictionary gives both pronunciation, with "hade" first.
>
It may be a germanic word (heck, the whole English language is "germanic"),
but is it German? The question is: how do the Duch pronounce "heid", since
that is basically what Afrikaans is. And, yes, (having been in the
Netherlands many times now) Dutch bears many startling similarities to
English -- which makes complete sense, since they are both dialects of low
German.
Deryk Barker
: Cathy and Kip wrote:
:
: > Before your post, I had assumed that pronouncing a Germanic word like it
: > was an English word was a mistake of some kind, but I see my American
: > Heritage dictionary gives both pronunciation, with "hade" first.
: >
:
: It may be a germanic word (heck, the whole English language is "germanic"),
: but is it German? The question is: how do the Duch pronounce "heid", since
: that is basically what Afrikaans is. And, yes, (having been in the
: Netherlands many times now) Dutch bears many startling similarities to
: English -- which makes complete sense, since they are both dialects of low
: German.
This is far too simple a categorisation of Modern English. English did
indeed begin as a Teutonic language, but the infusion of French and
the Romance influence after the Norman Conquest has made it far more
complex.
The modern language to which English is closest is, or so I read,
Swedish.
Keith Edgerley
>
> SNIP
> Netherlands many times now) Dutch bears many startling similarities to
> English -- which makes complete sense, since they are both dialects of low
> German.
>
The words for butter, milk, and cheese,
are the same in English, Dutch, and Friese.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
> CONSTANTIN MARCOU (conm...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> : Cathy and Kip wrote:
> :
> : > Before your post, I had assumed that pronouncing a Germanic word like it
> : > was an English word was a mistake of some kind, but I see my American
> : > Heritage dictionary gives both pronunciation, with "hade" first.
> : >
> :
> : It may be a germanic word (heck, the whole English language is "germanic"),
> : but is it German? The question is: how do the Duch pronounce "heid", since
> : that is basically what Afrikaans is. And, yes, (having been in the
> : Netherlands many times now) Dutch bears many startling similarities to
> : English -- which makes complete sense, since they are both dialects of low
> : German.
>
> This is far too simple a categorisation of Modern English. English did
> indeed begin as a Teutonic language, but the infusion of French and
> the Romance influence after the Norman Conquest has made it far more
> complex.
Of course. (Although the centuries between 1066 and 1300 or so when French was
the official language of the English court seem to have resulted in the Germanic
grammatical rules become simplified -- not more complex -- among those
unprivileged and untutored classes who continued speaking English). Anyway, it is
suggested that this rich mixture is why English was so ideally suited to become a
lingua franca for the information age.
> The modern language to which English is closest is, or so I read,
> Swedish.
Fascinating. It would be interesting to learn some Swedish just to see!--
Margaret Mikulska
> Swedish.
Sorry, this is not so. Swedish is North Germanic, while English is West
Germanic. The closest to English is Frisian.
-Margaret
Bernard Hill
<cdo...@NOSPAMvisi.net> writes
>
>I got it from direct observation. I have heard voices on National Public
>Radio in the USA who identify themselves as BBC reporters and say
>"Nick-a-rag-you-ah" and suchlike, however I don't think I've heard them
>say it lately. Could be the problem has fixed itself by now. Chances
>are, this whole digression in the thread belongs in 'classic radio
>howlers' anyway.
To the best of my knowledge the BBC still pronounces it that way.
So how do you think Nicaragua should be pronounced? According to the
Shorter Oxford English Dictionary that's how it's pronounced.
It seems odd to us to hear Americans say "Nicaragwa"
I don't know how the locals pronounce it, and it may not matter. After
all Paris is pronounced Paree by the locals, and Germany is pronounced
Doychshland.
Bernard Hill
Scotland
Judy Gillen
Saint is generally pronounced SA as in Africa and Saens is So...N (at the
back of the throat).
In French you don't pronounce an S,at the end of a name...although some non
French people do!...IMHO it's not right ,so when I 'm announcing the
composer's name,on Radio, I never sound the S on the end
regards,
Judy Gillen
Inspirational Classics HCJB World Radio
http://users.iconz.co.nz/gillen/ic.html wrote in message
<6v1s41$f5t$2...@news1-alterdial.uu.net>...
>Keith Edgerley <keith.e...@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>>The final 's' in Saint-Sa=EBns is pronounced.
>
>Right, but how do you pronounce the first syllable correctly? I
>understand the vowel is something like the "e" in "sent", nasalized
>less than in Portuguese. Any advice?
>
>--Spud DuBoise <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music/tuning.html>
>
>
Joyce Maier
Keith Edgerley wrote: <361691...@bluewin.ch>...
>CONSTANTIN MARCOU wrote:
>>
>> SNIP
>And, yes, (having been in the
>> Netherlands many times now) Dutch bears many startling similarities to
>> English -- which makes complete sense, since they are both dialects of
low
>> German.
>>
>
>are the same in English, Dutch, and Friese.
Pardon??? The same??? OK, the difference is little, but there IS a
difference, particularly the Dutch word for cheese, which is "kaas" and
pronounced in a very different way. Butter = boter. Milk = melk. BTW, the
word is "Fries", not "Friese".
Regards,
Native Dutch speaker Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
Joyce Maier
CONSTANTIN MARCOU wrote: <3615F484...@earthlink.net>...
>Cathy and Kip wrote:
>
>> Before your post, I had assumed that pronouncing a Germanic word like it
>> was an English word was a mistake of some kind, but I see my American
>> Heritage dictionary gives both pronunciation, with "hade" first.
>>
>
>It may be a germanic word (heck, the whole English language is "germanic"),
>but is it German? The question is: how do the Duch pronounce "heid", since
>that is basically what Afrikaans is.
Not easy to explain to an English speaker. The vowel is the problem. The "h"
is like the "h" in "hide". The "d" is like the "t" in "amount", but the
"ei"? I really don't know how to explain. It's NOT the vowel of "hide". I'll
think about it and let you know, if I get a brainwave.
Cathy and Kip
> To the best of my knowledge the BBC still pronounces it that way.
> So how do you think Nicaragua should be pronounced? According to the
> Shorter Oxford English Dictionary that's how it's pronounced.
>
> It seems odd to us to hear Americans say "Nicaragwa"
The rules of Spanish pronunciation are just about 100% consistent, which
should make it the easiest language in the world for BBC announcers to
deal with. If Americans didn't alter the initial "i" to be like the
short i in "ick," even we would pronounce the word correctly. A Spanish
speaker would say "neek-a-rahg-wa," though with a short enough duration
on the first vowel that it wouldn't sound much different from the USA
pronunciation "nick-a-rahg-wa."
"Jag-you-are" and "nick-a-rag-you-are" and other mispronounced Spanish
seems a little mystifying sometimes, considering how close your country
is to Spain. Closer than I am to my parents and two of my sisters. (On
the other hand, my closest sister is picking up Canadian vowel sounds
from living close to the border. A lot of things look foolish if you
pick at them enough.) Your pointing out "Paree" and "Deutschland" are
certainly fair game in the context! I guess "Nickaragyoua" is a valid
English word meaning "Nicaragua," and the same for our American
makeshifts.
--Kip Williams
I. Neill Reid
>Bernard Hill wrote:
>> To the best of my knowledge the BBC still pronounces it that way.
>> So how do you think Nicaragua should be pronounced? According to the
>> Shorter Oxford English Dictionary that's how it's pronounced.
>>
>> It seems odd to us to hear Americans say "Nicaragwa"
>
>The rules of Spanish pronunciation are just about 100% consistent, which
>should make it the easiest language in the world for BBC announcers to
>deal with.
Except that South American spanish is pronounced in a different fashion
to Castilian Spanish - and there are variants amongst the South American/
Mexican/US Hispanic dialects I'm sure. Simple example - Las campanas would have
both final s's pronounced in Spain, but Chileans drop both in everyday speech.
As a side note, the Spanish spoken in the Canaries is closely related
to that spoken in South America, notably in Venezuela - lots of familial
relations between the Canarians(?) and Venezuelans since that's the way
the shipping routes go.
Neill Reid - i...@dowland.caltech.edu
Steve Forrest
Judy Gillen <gil...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> In French you don't pronounce an S,at the end of a name...although some non
>French people do!...IMHO it's not right ,so when I 'm announcing the
>composer's name,on Radio, I never sound the S on the end
But I have heard other announcers pronounce the final 's', and then explain
that the was the way Saint-Saens pronounced it. So maybe this is an exception
to that otherwise generally valid rule of French pronunciation.
-Steve
Roland van Gaalen - Amsterdam - NL
It is pronounced like "Chen Chens" -- I happen to know this because when I
was about to buy Carnival des Animaux in 1970 or so, the record dealer
simply said "Ah! Chen Chens."
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
ferns
I think there is a case to be made for a certain amount of cultural laissez-faire. In the end, for instance, the pronunciations of so many Proper Nouns have changed immensely in 300 yrs.: their spelling too. I myself say "PurcELL" but object to "marvELL" and this is a function of how I met the names in the first place. "Any word that looks unfamiliar is pronounced as if it were foreign"? I think you'll probably find that the speaker is taking a common enough trait of English spelling and applying (or possibly mis-applying) it here. It has nothing to do with seeming foreign.
> One of the funniest of these mispronunciations is 'makko' for 'macho' -
> yes folks,
> this is a common British mispronunciation of the Spanish word
Really? I've lived here for 25 yrs, met thousands of people, watched tv, listened to the radio, etc, etc, etc, and never heard it pronounced that way.
Aude sapere, certainly, but noli opprimere
Keith Edgerley
> >are the same in English, Dutch, and Friese.
>
> Pardon??? The same??? OK, the difference is little, but there IS a
> difference, particularly the Dutch word for cheese, which is "kaas" and
> pronounced in a very different way. Butter = boter. Milk = melk. BTW, the
> word is "Fries", not "Friese".
>
> Native Dutch speaker Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
Some people are so literal-minded. This is a philologists's jingle from
- I was going to say my student days, but I seem to remember first
hearing it at school.
The normal English is Frisian; Friese is an alternative in English.
Otherwise the s would be unvocalised.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
Keith Edgerley
>
> Hi Keith,
>
> In French you don't pronounce an S,at the end of a name...although some non
> French people do!...IMHO it's not right ,so when I 'm announcing the
> composer's name,on Radio, I never sound the S on the end
> Judy Gillen
> Inspirational Classics HCJB World Radio
>
>
> >
> >>The final 's' in Saint-Sa=EBns is pronounced.
> >
Sorry, Judy, but the final s is pronounced on this composer's name, just
as it is in, to quote three, the words sens (sense, direction), ours
(bear - le Grand Ours = Ursa Major), and os (bone, but not in the
plural, meaning you say un 'oss' for one bone but des 'o' for some
bones). Oh, and in the word Mars (as in bar, or the planet), but
unvoiced.
I speak French much more often than English in my everyday life,
incidentally.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
Joyce Maier
Keith Edgerley wrote:<36185A...@bluewin.ch>...
>Joyce Maier wrote:
>>
>> Keith Edgerley wrote: <361691...@bluewin.ch>...
>>
>> >
>> >The words for butter, milk, and cheese,
>> >are the same in English, Dutch, and Friese.
>>
>> Pardon??? The same??? OK, the difference is little, but there IS a
>> difference, particularly the Dutch word for cheese, which is "kaas" and
>> pronounced in a very different way. Butter = boter. Milk = melk. BTW, the
>> word is "Fries", not "Friese".
>>
>> Regards,
>> Native Dutch speaker Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
>
>Some people are so literal-minded.
I find it a step too far to state that the words "cheese" and "kaas" are
"the same"! You're right, of course, that Dutch and English have a lot in
common, but the differences are by no means little. Dutch and German have
much more in common.
>The normal English is Frisian; Friese is an alternative in English.
Apologies, I thought that you used the Dutch name of the language.
>Otherwise the s would be unvocalised.
I see. That's one of the most important differences between Dutch and
English. In Dutch all written-down characters must be pronounced, though
there are some, very few, exceptions to this rule. Mostly the pronounciation
of the English language by Dutch people is awful (and vice versa). No
wonder!
Regards,
Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
Paul Dormer
and Kip) wrote:
> Bernard Hill wrote:
> > To the best of my knowledge the BBC still pronounces it that way.
> > So how do you think Nicaragua should be pronounced? According to the
> > Shorter Oxford English Dictionary that's how it's pronounced.
> >
> > It seems odd to us to hear Americans say "Nicaragwa"
>
> The rules of Spanish pronunciation are just about 100% consistent, which
> should make it the easiest language in the world for BBC announcers to
> deal with. If Americans didn't alter the initial "i" to be like the
> short i in "ick," even we would pronounce the word correctly. A Spanish
> speaker would say "neek-a-rahg-wa," though with a short enough duration
> on the first vowel that it wouldn't sound much different from the USA
> pronunciation "nick-a-rahg-wa."
>
> "Jag-you-are" and "nick-a-rag-you-are" and other mispronounced Spanish
> seems a little mystifying sometimes, considering how close your country
> is to Spain. Closer than I am to my parents and two of my sisters. (On
> the other hand, my closest sister is picking up Canadian vowel sounds
> from living close to the border. A lot of things look foolish if you
> pick at them enough.) Your pointing out "Paree" and "Deutschland" are
> certainly fair game in the context! I guess "Nickaragyoua" is a valid
> English word meaning "Nicaragua," and the same for our American
> makeshifts.
>
> --Kip Williams
>
Then again, there are different dialects of Spanish, I believe. I
remember some years ago a BBC announcer introducing a performance of
Henze's El Cimmaron. He pronounced it "El Thim-ar-on", which, as a
Spanish-speaking friend said, might be good Castilian (or whatever dialect
that is) but probably not what they say in Cuba.
Colin Rosenthal
Cathy and Kip <cdo...@NOSPAMvisi.net> wrote:
>"Jag-you-are" and "nick-a-rag-you-are" and other mispronounced Spanish
>seems a little mystifying sometimes, considering how close your country
>is to Spain. Closer than I am to my parents and two of my sisters. (On
>the other hand, my closest sister is picking up Canadian vowel sounds
>from living close to the border. A lot of things look foolish if you
>pick at them enough.) Your pointing out "Paree" and "Deutschland" are
>certainly fair game in the context! I guess "Nickaragyoua" is a valid
>English word meaning "Nicaragua," and the same for our American
>makeshifts.
Exactly. These are the correct British-English pronounciations, although
they are obviously neither correct Spanish nor correct American-English.
I'm not sure what else one can say except that understanding the historical
reasons for the differences is probably more useful than arguing over who is
correct (which is likely to end up as an argument about the War of 1812, and
why "we" need/don't need gun control :-)) Incidentally, have you ever watched
a Brit trying to order a fillet-of-anything in an American restaurant? It's a
source of amusement...
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
Keith Edgerley
feeling stupid all day.
--
Keith
Sapere aude
Dick James
pronounced?
--
Dick James
sg...@my-dejanews.com
"ZY" rhymes with "sigh." And all these years I've been saying "ee-SAY".
Scott B.
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Allen Smith
because the variations are numerous?