Vaughan Williams pronunciation
Robert Devereaux
: How did Ralph Vaughan Williams pronounce his first name? Recently a
: friend told me that he (R.V.W.) pronounced it "Ralf." This surprised
: me. I'm not sure if I believe him.
: -Alex
: P.S. If RVW *did* say "ralf," is "rafe" incorrect? And if so, why
: does it persist?
"Rafe" is the common pronunciation of Ralph in Britain, I think. Two
points of support: (1) The tenor in HMS Pinafore; (2) the way RvW's
name was pronounced in at least the LP version of the Boult recording
of RvW's 9th, a brief statement that he died during the recording of
that symphony.
But your friend may still be right about RvW's preference in pronunciation.
Robert
Theodore Slotkin
Actually, both pronunciations are used in England. The 'upper-class' pronunciation is "Rafe" whereas the lower-class on is "Ralf". =
That's what makes G& S's Pinafore so funny -- here's a (supposed) foretopman, Ralph Rackstraw, whom everyone addresses as "Rafe," t=
hus giving intimations that he's not really lower-class.
Ted Slotkin
John-Michael Albert
RAFE
Mike
Alex Chun
friend told me that he (R.V.W.) pronounced it "Ralf." This surprised
me. I'm not sure if I believe him.
-Alex
P.S. If RVW *did* say "ralf," is "rafe" incorrect? And if so, why
does it persist?
--
Alex Chun Your call is important to us. Please
ac...@sas.upenn.edu stay on the line and you will be
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~achun helped by the next available nitwit.
Robert John Guttke
>Alex Chun (ac...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: How did Ralph Vaughan Williams pronounce his first name? Recently a
>: friend told me that he (R.V.W.) pronounced it "Ralf." This surprised
>: me. I'm not sure if I believe him.
>: -Alex
>: P.S. If RVW *did* say "ralf," is "rafe" incorrect? And if so, why
>: does it persist?
>"Rafe" is the common pronunciation of Ralph in Britain, I think. Two
>points of support: (1) The tenor in HMS Pinafore; (2) the way RvW's
>name was pronounced in at least the LP version of the Boult recording
>of RvW's 9th, a brief statement that he died during the recording of
>that symphony.
>But your friend may still be right about RvW's preference in pronunciation.
>Robert
Vaughan Williams very much disliked being called RALF- and Rafe is the
correct pronunciation. It confuses people at record stores to no end
when you try and pronounce it properly. They have no idea.
RJG
Colin Bell
Theodore Slotkin <slot...@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>bob...@fc.hp.com (Robert Devereaux) wrote:
>>Alex Chun (ac...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
>>"Rafe" is the common pronunciation of Ralph in Britain, I think. Two
>>points of support: (1) The tenor in HMS Pinafore; (2) the way RvW's
>>name was pronounced in at least the LP version of the Boult recording
>>of RvW's 9th, a brief statement that he died during the recording of
>>that symphony.
>
pronunciation is "Rafe" whereas the lower-class on is "Ralf". =
> That's what makes G& S's Pinafore so funny -- here's a (supposed)
foretopman,
Ralph Rackstraw, whom everyone addresses as "Rafe," t=
>hus giving intimations that he's not really lower-class.
Alex's comment is a common myth propounded on r.m.c, but it's
unfortunately false. Theodore's is closer to the mark, but is still
some decades out of date. (The point about HMS Pinafore is good, but
remember it was written over a century ago.) Pronouncing Ralph as
'Rafe' nowadays will mark you out as a member of the aristocracy, or
extremely pretentious (depending on whether the rest of your accent fits).
You could have got away with it if you were educated pre WWI (as both Boult and
RVW were) but not really any more. Ralph is itself not common any more as a
name - it's thought of as rather dated.
Perhaps something ought to be put in the FAQ, as this sequence of replies
appears every couple of months on rmc.
Colin
--
-
Colin Bell, CR...@CUS.CAM.AC.UK
Department of Pure Mathematics, University of Cambridge.
Brett Zumsteg
pronunciation of "Ralph" as "Rafe."
Allan Jones
> "Rafe" is the common pronunciation of Ralph in Britain, I think.
I'd say that most people in Britain these days would
pronounce Ralph as Ralf. However, VW's first name is - among
the musically inclined part of the population - invariably
pronounced Raif, and I seem to recall his widow Ursula saying
on the radio that Raif was the pronunciation he preferred. In
fact, Vaughan Williams's first name is the only instance I know of
where Ralph is pronounced Raif.
Allan Jones.
Robert Devereaux
Thanks for the correction!
--
Robert Devereaux
bob...@fc.hp.com
Fort Collins, CO
(970) 229-3423
Matthew H. Fields
Allan Jones <a.j...@open.ac.uk> wrote:
>> "Rafe" is the common pronunciation of Ralph in Britain, I think.
What part? Wales? Cornwall? England? Scotland? Ulster? Where exactly is
RVW from, and what part does he consider his home?
>
Fred Goldrich
SirodEnaj <siro...@aol.com> wrote:
> ... Also, the tenor lead in
>"HMS Pinafore" is frequently called "Rafe" Rackstraw instead of "Ralph."
In this case, the rhyme scheme demands it. ("In time,
each little *waif* ...")
--
Fred Goldrich
gold...@panix.com
SirodEnaj
"Rafe" or "Raif" is a common British pronunciation of the name are
correct. The eminent young actor Ralph Fiennes ("Rafe Fines") insists on
that pronunciation, and I've heard that the great Ralph Richardson was
frequently referred to in Britain as "Sir Rafe." Also, the tenor lead in
"HMS Pinafore" is frequently called "Rafe" Rackstraw instead of "Ralph."
preference. Fiennes says that "Rafe" is the proper Old English
pronunciation. I'm surprised about how much controversy (or conTROversy,
as they say Over the Pond) this has engendered. (BTW, I am hearing
"CONtrovery" more nowadays, especially on the BBC World Service).
SirodEnaj
Christine Duncan
>bob...@fc.hp.com (Robert Devereaux) wrote:
>> "Rafe" is the common pronunciation of Ralph in Britain, I think.
> Vaughan Williams's first name is the only instance I know of
> where Ralph is pronounced Raif.
You're not a Gilbert and Sullivan fan then?
Christine
---------
Andrew Clarke
>From: bob...@fc.hp.com (Robert Devereaux)
>Subject: Re: Vaughan Williams pronunciation
>Date: 15 Dec 1995 15:42:12 GMT
>Alex Chun (ac...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: How did Ralph Vaughan Williams pronounce his first name? Recently a
>: friend told me that he (R.V.W.) pronounced it "Ralf." This surprised
>: me. I'm not sure if I believe him.
>: -Alex
>: P.S. If RVW *did* say "ralf," is "rafe" incorrect? And if so, why
>: does it persist?
>"Rafe" is the common pronunciation of Ralph in Britain, I think. Two
>points of support: (1) The tenor in HMS Pinafore; (2) the way RvW's
>name was pronounced in at least the LP version of the Boult recording
>of RvW's 9th, a brief statement that he died during the recording of
>that symphony.
>But your friend may still be right about RvW's preference in pronunciation.
>Robert
Most British Ralphs pronounce their name "Ralf". A recent exception is the
present Duke of Northumberland, who uses the "Rafe" version.
"Rafe" is now old-fashioned upper-class usage, on a par with "goff" or "gowff"
for "golf", where the "l" was similarly omitted.
Andrew Clarke
Frank Eggleston
> Vaughan Williams's first name is the only instance I know of
> > where Ralph is pronounced Raif.
> >
>
>>>>
The English actor Ralph Fiennes pronounces his first name Rafe.
Frank Eggleston
rp...@mac.com
> Alex Chun (ac...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
> : How did Ralph Vaughan Williams pronounce his first name? Recently a
> : friend told me that he (R.V.W.) pronounced it "Ralf." This surprised
> : me. I'm not sure if I believe him.
>
> : -Alex
>
> : P.S. If RVW *did* say "ralf," is "rafe" incorrect? And if so, why
> : does it persist?
>
> "Rafe" is the common pronunciation of Ralph in Britain, I think. Two
> points of support: (1) The tenor in HMS Pinafore; (2) the way RvW's
> name was pronounced in at least the LP version of the Boult recording
> of RvW's 9th, a brief statement that he died during the recording of
> that symphony.
>
> But your friend may still be right about RvW's preference in pronunciation.
>
> Robert
Ron Krieger
Roderick Stewart
Vaughan Williams, and you'll see she makes it clear that he insisted
his first name be pronounced as "Rafe". In all the talks, interviews
and documentaries I've seen that include people who actually did know
him, including his widow, they all pronounce his name that way.
Rod.
Paul Dormer
>
> >> "Rafe" is the common pronunciation of Ralph in Britain, I think. Two
> >> points of support: (1) The tenor in HMS Pinafore; (2) the way RvW's
> >> name was pronounced in at least the LP version of the Boult
recording
> >> of RvW's 9th, a brief statement that he died during the recording of
> >> that symphony.
> >>
it "ralf" and parents who wanted the children to be called "Rafe" would
spell the name that way. I know a Rafe, and there is an actor called
Rafe Spall.
Peter T. Daniels
would reminisce about RVW's visit (it was also the topic of an early number
of the annual *Cornell Music Review*, which these days would have been
a blog). He was called "ralf" by such people and those who followed them.
Roderick Stewart
From "RVW A Biography of Ralph Vaughan Williams" by Ursula Vaughan
Williams, published 1988, ISBN 0-19-282082-6 "Note on Names"-
"Ralph's grandfather, Sir Edward Vaughan Williams, seems to have been
the first member of the family to use the double-barreled but
unhyphenated name. All his sons wers so named and though occasionally
- at school or in the army - Ralph was called Williams it was not
correct. Ralph's name was pronounced Rafe, any other pronunciation
used to infuriate him".
I've heard many people who would have been personally acquainted with
RVW speaking of him, including Ursula Vaughan Williams, Michael
Kennedy and Sir Adrian Boult, and they all pronounced it "Rafe".
Rod.
Peter T. Daniels
> On Sat, 4 Feb 2017 04:46:57 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >> : How did Ralph Vaughan Williams pronounce his first name? Recently a
> >> >> : friend told me that he (R.V.W.) pronounced it "Ralf." This surprised
> >> >> : me. I'm not sure if I believe him.
> >> >> : does it persist?
> >> >> "Rafe" is the common pronunciation of Ralph in Britain, I think. Two
> >> >> points of support: (1) The tenor in HMS Pinafore; (2) the way RvW's
> >> >> name was pronounced in at least the LP version of the Boult recording
> >> >> of RvW's 9th, a brief statement that he died during the recording of
> >> >> that symphony.
> >> >> But your friend may still be right about RvW's preference in pronunciation.
> >> Other way round. Read the Biography of RVW by his widow, Ursula
> >> Vaughan Williams, and you'll see she makes it clear that he insisted
> >> his first name be pronounced as "Rafe". In all the talks, interviews
> >> and documentaries I've seen that include people who actually did know
> >> him, including his widow, they all pronounce his name that way.
> >I was at Cornell from '68 to '72, and various people in the Music Department
> >would reminisce about RVW's visit (it was also the topic of an early number
> >of the annual *Cornell Music Review*, which these days would have been
> >a blog). He was called "ralf" by such people and those who followed them.
>
> He may have been, but they were wrong.
they said "rafe"!
> From "RVW A Biography of Ralph Vaughan Williams" by Ursula Vaughan
> Williams, published 1988, ISBN 0-19-282082-6 "Note on Names"-
The more interesting question is why someone reverted to a thread from almost 22 years ago.
Paul Dormer
>
> From "RVW A Biography of Ralph Vaughan Williams" by Ursula Vaughan
> Williams, published 1988, ISBN 0-19-282082-6 "Note on Names"-
fictionalised Ursula Vaughan Williams is played by Frances de la Tour.
It's no verification that she pronounced it Rafe in the film, but I
presume Alan Bennett had heard Ursula say the name and would have
corrected de la Tour if she was wrong. (Or maybe not, given how much the
film is about an unreliable narrator.)
Roderick Stewart
p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:
>>
>> From "RVW A Biography of Ralph Vaughan Williams" by Ursula Vaughan
>> Williams, published 1988, ISBN 0-19-282082-6 "Note on Names"-
>
>Incidently, I've just seen the film The Lady in the Van in which a
>fictionalised Ursula Vaughan Williams is played by Frances de la Tour.
>It's no verification that she pronounced it Rafe in the film, but I
>presume Alan Bennett had heard Ursula say the name and would have
>corrected de la Tour if she was wrong. (Or maybe not, given how much the
>film is about an unreliable narrator.)
IMDB, though she wasn't mentioned in the book. Her scene in the movie
wasn't particularly significant so I don't know why they took the
trouble to include her. However, she did live in Gloucester Crescent
at the time, so an occasional meeting is entirely plausible. I've
heard her speak in radio and TV interviews, and she always pronounced
her husband's name as "Rafe", just as she describes in her biography
of him. I don't know who would have made this clear to the actress, if
it was necessary; if she didn't already know she would surely have
taken the trouble to find out.
Rod.