Pronuniciation of Names
ink...@yahoo.com
heard it spoken, and so, often I'm left having no idea as to
pronunciation:
Xenakis:
Zen-ock-iss?
Zen-a-kiss?
Ockeghem:
Ock-keg-ham?
Ahh-kem?
Ligeti:
La-get-EE?
La-jaette-EE?
Prokofiev:
Pro-co-fee-off?
Pro-co-vee-off?
Horatiu Radulescu:
Horray-shoe Raa-doo-less-coo?
Sibelius:
Sa-bell-ee-iss?
Sa-bell-iss?
See-bell-ee-iss?
Berio:
Bear-ee-o?
Burr-ee-o?
Buxtehude:
Bucks-tude?
Debussy:
Day-boo-see?
Faure:
Four?
Far?
Hindemith:
Hind(ryhmes with wind)-myth?
Hinde(rhymes with behind)-myth?
Hin-da-myth?
Janacek:
Yan-a-check?
Yan-a-shek?
Lutoslawski:
Lute-a-slaw-ski?
Lut-a-slaw-ski?
Machaut:
Ma-chaught?
Ma-co?
Ma-chote?
Messiaen:
Messy-in?
Ma-say-in?
Poulenc:
Poo-lank?
Poo-lenk?
Saint-Saens:
Saint-sanes?
Saint-say-ins?
Takemitsu:
Tock-a-mit-sue?
Tack-a-mit-sue?
Telemann:
Ta-lay-man?
Tell-A-man?
Mozart:
Moe-zart?
Mote-zart?
Suk:
Suck?
Sue-k(rhymes with kook, as in, 'look at that old kook, stumbling
around, talking to himself.')?
Vriezen:
Vry-zen?
Vree-zin?
Ver-I-zin?
Fields:
Fye-elds?(just kidding)
All help appreciated.
Lyle K. Neff
> Prokofiev:
> Pro-co-fee-off?
> Pro-co-vee-off?
[...]
Here's an approximation of how to say the surname in Russian (lacking
IPA symbols, please forgive the notational inaccuracy):
pra - KAWF - yiff
(the syllables rhyme with the English words ah - off - if -- at least in
my American dialect).
The name has three syllables, not four; stress is on the second syllable.
You can listen to the name by scrolling down this page:
http://patriciagray.net/Operahtmls/works.html
where you can click on this specific audio file:
Jerry Kohl
xi (with the value "ksi"), and the last vowel is eta, so Kseh-NAH-kees
is close enough for government work. Nevertheless, most people seem to
pronounce the name as if it began with a Z, and ended in "kiss".
Ligeti's name, as is universal in Hungarian, is accented on the first
syllable, and the G is hard: LEE-get-ee.
Machaut, oddly enough, is pronounced as if it were French, so the final
T is silent, and the CH has the value of Hungarian S ;-), that is,
English SH, so: ma-SHOH (no diphthong as in English "show").
The second L in Lutoslawski has a slash across it, which indicates a
sound like English W. The Polish W is pronounced like Welsh F ;-), that
is, English V, so the closest English representation is
Loo-toh-SWAV-ski.
Jerry Kohl
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Lenny Abbey
Si-bay-li-oos
> Buxtehude:
Boox-tay-hoode-uh
> Hindemith:
Hin-de-moot
> Telemann:
Tele-maan
Lenny
Albert Edelman
in. Sorry, mostly joking, but it has struck me as interesting how names get
mutilated. A Finnish friend of mine was taught (in Helsinki) to say Ma-REEN
Mar-ICE, and yes, that's the little quiz here: who was the composer
mentioned? (I hope my comments are useful, I'm not too familiar with US
vowel representation.)
--
Albert (the Dutch)
-----------------------
Qu'entends-je?
(Hébé, Les Indes Galantes)
> Ockeghem:
> Ock-uh-ham [with the h of 'ham' really aspired, or, like the g sound but
> then stretched, or, for the real Dutch touch: scrape your throat at the
> gh]
> Debussy:
can think of no transcription, but the u is the French short u (not 'you',
but closer to iii) and the accent is on the final syllable:
day-bu-SEE [short ee]
> Faure:
> F oh-RAY
> Hindemith:
> Hin-dah-meet
> Janacek:
> Yan-a-check
> Messiaen:
> Mah-see-AHN
> Poulenc
> Poo-LANK [long stretched a sound]
> Saint-Saens:
> Saint-SAH-s [short, dark a sound, and NO n]
> Mozart:
> MOH-tsart
>
> Suk:
> Sue-k (rhymes with kook, as in, 'look at that old kook, stumbling
> around, talking to himself.') [indeed!]
> Vriezen: (who's this?)
> Vree-zan [but the a might resemble uh more, accent on first syllable]
Risto Karttunen
> I admit, I've read more about classical music than I've actually
> heard it spoken, and so, often I'm left having no idea as to
> pronunciation:
>
> Sa-bell-ee-iss?
> Sa-bell-iss?
> See-bell-ee-iss?
>
This wouldn't be an issue, if you knew Latin. Take the first syllable
'Si' as 'ci' in 'cigarette', the second 'be' as in 'bell' and 'lius' as
in 'Delius'. Most Finns put the emphasis on the first syllable although
it really should be on the second, with a prolonged 'e'.
--
risto
Simon Smith
> The second L in Lutoslawski has a slash across it, which indicates a
> sound like English W. The Polish W is pronounced like Welsh F ;-), that
> is, English V, so the closest English representation is
> Loo-toh-SWAV-ski.
Though the W (V) will become unvoiced before the S, so it will in fact be
more like 'swaf'.
--
Simon Smith "I am myself only in music. Music is enough
http://www.ingemisco.com for a whole lifetime - but a lifetime is not
enough for music." (Sergei Rachmaninov)
Gareth Williams
> The Polish W is pronounced like Welsh F ;-), that is, English V
Thanks for picking that up. Fans of Bryn please note that his surname is
pronounced "TAIR-VELL" [1] and emphatically not "Turfle".
[1] The stress is on the first syllable, ending with a rolled "r" as in
"Herr". "Terfel" is like "stairwell" in both sound and emphasis.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Edward A. Cowan
Hin-de-moot
Should be more like "HIN-de-mitt" (not like "Hin damit!" <g>)
> Telemann:
Tele-maan
I have heard Germans pronounce this name "TAY-leh-mahn"... --E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
>> Four?
>> Far?
As written (above), the name is pronounced "four" (no
diphthongization!) -- but the composer's name is Fauré (acute accent
on the e), and is therefore pronounced "fo-ray": no syllabic stress,
uvular r. --E.A.C.
Peter T. Daniels
> The second L in Lutoslawski has a slash across it, which indicates a
> sound like English W. The Polish W is pronounced like Welsh F ;-), that
> is, English V, so the closest English representation is
> Loo-toh-SWAV-ski.
The pronunciation of Polish crossed-l is a matter of dialect. In the
Warsaw standard, it's simply [w] (as in "Lech Vawensa" and "Karol
Woytiwa").
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Peter T. Daniels
>
> I admit, I've read more about classical music than I've actually
> heard it spoken, and so, often I'm left having no idea as to
> pronunciation:
Get yourself *The Well-Tempered Announcer* by Robert Fradkin (Indiana
UP, ca. 1998). The only place I've seen it stocked on the shelf is the
Juilliard Bookstore, but it's easy enough to order. It gives you
instructions in pronouncing lots of languages needed by classical music
aficionados, plus an extensive glossary of names and terms with
pronunciations (so you don't need to learn all the rules to start with).
Roman Turovsky
> syllable, and the G is hard: LEE-get-ee.
RT
Matthew Fields
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
>For Xenakis, you should be aware that the first letter in his name is
>xi (with the value "ksi"), and the last vowel is eta, so Kseh-NAH-kees
>is close enough for government work. Nevertheless, most people seem to
>pronounce the name as if it began with a Z, and ended in "kiss".
>
>Ligeti's name, as is universal in Hungarian, is accented on the first
>syllable, and the G is hard: LEE-get-ee.
His *first* name, Gyo"rgy, is pronounced like "George" with umlauted o.
>Machaut, oddly enough, is pronounced as if it were French, so the final
>T is silent, and the CH has the value of Hungarian S ;-), that is,
>English SH, so: ma-SHOH (no diphthong as in English "show").
The Village People used to sing about Machaut, Machaut Mass....
>The second L in Lutoslawski has a slash across it, which indicates a
>sound like English W. The Polish W is pronounced like Welsh F ;-), that
>is, English V, so the closest English representation is
>Loo-toh-SWAV-ski.
that about covers it.
>Jerry Kohl
>"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
>
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <1105081318.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >For Xenakis, you should be aware that the first letter in his name is
> >xi (with the value "ksi"), and the last vowel is eta, so Kseh-NAH-kees
> >is close enough for government work. Nevertheless, most people seem to
> >pronounce the name as if it began with a Z, and ended in "kiss".
> >
> >Ligeti's name, as is universal in Hungarian, is accented on the first
> >syllable, and the G is hard: LEE-get-ee.
>
> His *first* name, Gyo"rgy, is pronounced like "George" with umlauted o.
If you're going to use an English "j" sound for the consonants, you
might as well not bother trying to umlaut the vowel, and just say
"George."
The Hungarian sound spelled <gy> is a palatal stop, not found in other
European languages. Not difficult to make, but not easy to describe if
you don't have the terms of reference available.
Matthew Fields
Albert Edelman <albert...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Goody, finally the chance to put some European (or even low-country) vowels
>in. Sorry, mostly joking, but it has struck me as interesting how names get
>mutilated. A Finnish friend of mine was taught (in Helsinki) to say Ma-REEN
>Mar-ICE, and yes, that's the little quiz here: who was the composer
>mentioned? (I hope my comments are useful, I'm not too familiar with US
>vowel representation.)
The gambist, of course.
Matthew Fields
I prefer to dispense with the theory and describe how natives say it.
You can find audio samples of this on the web, and they match what I've
heard in person.
Prai Jei
message <1105051686....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:
> I admit, I've read more about classical music than I've actually
> heard it spoken, and so, often I'm left having no idea as to
> pronunciation:
Einojuhani [Rautavaara]
I know you honey
--
Paul Townsend
Pair them off into threes
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Prai Jei
<1105081318.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>:
> the CH has the value of Hungarian S ;-), that is, English SH,
>
> The second L in Lutoslawski has a slash across it, which indicates a
> sound like English W. The Polish W is pronounced like Welsh F ;-), that
> is, English V, so the closest English representation is
> Loo-toh-SWAV-ski.
The pronunciations of S and SZ are interchanged between Hungarian and
Polish.
Prai Jei
message <1105051686....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:
> Prokofiev:
> Pro-co-fee-off?
> Pro-co-vee-off?
I say something closer to Pro-coff-yev.
The German transliteration Prokofjew looks at first glance like incitement
to religions hatred :)
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <41DEA4...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Matthew Fields wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <1105081318.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> >For Xenakis, you should be aware that the first letter in his name is
> >> >xi (with the value "ksi"), and the last vowel is eta, so Kseh-NAH-kees
> >> >is close enough for government work. Nevertheless, most people seem to
> >> >pronounce the name as if it began with a Z, and ended in "kiss".
> >> >
> >> >Ligeti's name, as is universal in Hungarian, is accented on the first
> >> >syllable, and the G is hard: LEE-get-ee.
> >>
> >> His *first* name, Gyo"rgy, is pronounced like "George" with umlauted o.
> >
> >If you're going to use an English "j" sound for the consonants, you
> >might as well not bother trying to umlaut the vowel, and just say
> >"George."
> >
> >The Hungarian sound spelled <gy> is a palatal stop, not found in other
> >European languages. Not difficult to make, but not easy to describe if
> >you don't have the terms of reference available.
> I prefer to dispense with the theory and describe how natives say it.
> You can find audio samples of this on the web, and they match what I've
> heard in person.
A native speaker of English is likely to hear the palatal obstruent as a
"j," because that's the English sound closest to the Hungarian, but if
you'd studied Hungarian, you wouldn't make that mistake.
(Just as the native speaker of English is unlikely to be able to detect
the difference between Arabic kalb 'dog' and qalb 'heart' without having
studied Arabic.)
Peter T. Daniels
>
> ink...@yahoo.com (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
> message <1105051686....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:
>
> > Prokofiev:
> > Pro-co-fee-off?
> > Pro-co-vee-off?
>
> I say something closer to Pro-coff-yev.
>
> The German transliteration Prokofjew looks at first glance like incitement
> to religions hatred :)
Prok off yourself, Townsend!
Loekie Ratelkous
[...]
>
> Machaut, oddly enough, is pronounced as if it were French, so the final
> T is silent, and the CH has the value of Hungarian S ;-), that is,
> English SH, so: ma-SHOH (no diphthong as in English "show").
>
I have never considered the possibility that he would NOT be French.
His first name Guillaume certainly s, and the prefix "de " is common in
French, counterpart of Spanish de, German von and Dutch van.
--
Loek
Loekie Ratelkous
> Goody, finally the chance to put some European (or even low-country) vowels
> in. Sorry, mostly joking, but it has struck me as interesting how names get
> mutilated. A Finnish friend of mine was taught (in Helsinki) to say Ma-REEN
> Mar-ICE, and yes, that's the little quiz here: who was the composer
> mentioned? (I hope my comments are useful, I'm not too familiar with US
> vowel representation.)
Main Marais
--
Loek
Loekie Ratelkous
> Goody, finally the chance to put some European (or even low-country) vowels
> in. Sorry, mostly joking, but it has struck me as interesting how names get
> mutilated. A Finnish friend of mine was taught (in Helsinki) to say Ma-REEN
> Mar-ICE, and yes, that's the little quiz here: who was the composer
> mentioned? (I hope my comments are useful, I'm not too familiar with US
> vowel representation.)
correction: Marin Marais
--
Loek
Matthew Fields
musics...@netscape.net
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
Not any more. The distinction between the two kinds of "crossed l" is
not observed nowadays even by actors.
-MM
Peter T. Daniels
What "two kinds of crossed l"?
John W. Kennedy
> (Just as the native speaker of English is unlikely to be able to detect
> the difference between Arabic kalb 'dog' and qalb 'heart' without having
> studied Arabic.)
Or at least phonetics.
--
John W. Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
-- Rupert Goodwins
Jerry Kohl
accented on the first, second, third, or fourth syllAble? Finnish is
normally accented on the first syllable, and surely this is more
important here than the vowel qualities. On the other hand, most
non-Finnish speakers tend to accent the name on the second syllable,
whereas the double-O spelling you offer strongly suggests accent on the
final syllable. Which is it, then? ;-)
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net>
Jerry Kohl
"TAY-leh-mahn", also, if what you are trying to say is that it is
accented on the first syllable. In fact, I cannot recall hearing anyone
accent the name any other way. If, on the other hand, you are trying to
distinguish the vowels, do you mean to say you have heard Germans
pronounce the first syllable to rhyme exactly with the English word
"say", as prononced by a Mancunian, or as pronounced by a native of the
Bronx? And is "leh" (in an unaccented syllable) meant to be pronounced
the same, or differently to "leh" in an accented syllable (as the first
syllable in "labor", or as in an unaccented syllable, as in ... well
... "syl-leh-bull"? ;-)
Jerry Kohl
Jerry Kohl
account of he dated a Hungarian lady once ;-)
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net>
Jerry Kohl
suggested "Loo-toh-SWAV-ski" as a spelling for Hungarians, but rather,
"Loo-toh-SZWAV-szki"?
Jerry Kohl
Jerry Kohl
Jerry Kohl
American speakers will have differing ideas of how this is to be
pronounced. Some say "DAY-lee-us" (with the last syllable pronounced
like the common first-person plural objective pronoun), while others
say "DEE-lee-oose", with the last syllable rhyming with "moose" or
"loose". One shudders to think how the composer's French neighbours
pronounced his name ... ;-)
Jerry Kohl
That is "no tonic accent", rather than "no syllabic stress". There is a
world of difference!
Jerry Kohl
Lenny Abbey
Lenny
"Edward A. Cowan" <e.c...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1105104636....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > Hindemith:
>
> Hin-de-moot
>
>
> Should be more like "HIN-de-mitt" (not like "Hin damit!" <g>)
>
>
>
>
> > Telemann:
>
> Tele-maan
> I have heard Germans pronounce this name "TAY-leh-mahn"... --E.A.C.
>
Lenny Abbey
Lenny
"Jerry Kohl" <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1105165023....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Risto Karttunen
>
> Ah. "Delius" is an especially bad example, since most English and
> American speakers will have differing ideas of how this is to be
> pronounced.
>
That sounds charming - I mean, to hear his name pronounced correctly in
the English or American or whatever way, so to speak. After all, even
the Finnish way of pronounciation is different from the Swedish one,
which is the orthodox one in this case, but most of the Finnish people
speaks Finnish and uses the Finnish way (or something in between).
--
risto
Ian Pace
and was reliably informed by the Czechs of the following:
Dvorak = Dvor-JARK (to rhyme with Noah's 'ark'), not the Dvor-JACK that you
usually hear
Smetana = Smet -AA-na, not simple SMET-na, or SMET-a-na
Janacek = Yan-AA-check, not YAN-a-check, the stress is on the second
syllable
Martinu = MAR-tin-oo, not MAR-tin-yu (I think the contour is less pronounced
than with the others, though).
One very tricky one is Ustvolskaya. A Russian student I once had pronounced
it something like Ust-WOY-ski-a. Can anyone else confirm this, or if not
what the exact pronunciation is?
And of course English is nothing like as systematic as many other languages
with its pronunciation. Try explaining why we say Brian Fern-ee-HO, but
Stephen HUFF.
Ian
Ian Pace
"Risto Karttunen" <ti...@iobox.fi> wrote in message
news:crof3c$n37$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
> Jerry Kohl wrote:
> >
>> Ah. "Delius" is an especially bad example, since most English and
>> American speakers will have differing ideas of how this is to be
>> pronounced.
English and American speakers also have different ideas about pronouncing
Van Gogh, and both are wrong!
> >
> That may be, but why not apply the same ideas to the name of Sibelius.
> That sounds charming - I mean, to hear his name pronounced correctly in
> the English or American or whatever way, so to speak. After all, even the
> Finnish way of pronounciation is different from the Swedish one, which is
> the orthodox one in this case, but most of the Finnish people speaks
> Finnish and uses the Finnish way (or something in between).
>
How do you personally pronounce Magnus Lindberg's name? Is it something like
Ma-NY-us LIND-Bary (with a very short 'y' at the end, the 'bary' almost like
one syllable)? As this seems a Swedish name, how is he pronounced, being a
Finn. I'm thinking about IN-y-mar, BARY-man. Let alone the common
mispronunciations by English-speaking people of YO-tun-bury (Gothenburg - is
that roughly correct)?
Ian
Ian Pace
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:41DEE9...@worldnet.att.net...
>>> >>
> A native speaker of English is likely to hear the palatal obstruent as a
> "j," because that's the English sound closest to the Hungarian, but if
> you'd studied Hungarian, you wouldn't make that mistake.
It's a much harder sound than English 'j'.
>
> (Just as the native speaker of English is unlikely to be able to detect
> the difference between Arabic kalb 'dog' and qalb 'heart' without having
> studied Arabic.)
> --
I wonder if Bulgakov's 'The Heart of a Dog' has ever been translated into
Arabic? Anyone know what the title would come out as?
Ian
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:41DEE9...@worldnet.att.net...
> >>> >>
> > A native speaker of English is likely to hear the palatal obstruent as a
> > "j," because that's the English sound closest to the Hungarian, but if
> > you'd studied Hungarian, you wouldn't make that mistake.
>
> It's a much harder sound than English 'j'.
If you mean "difficult," you're wrong, and if you don't, "hard" is not a
word used in phonetics.
> > (Just as the native speaker of English is unlikely to be able to detect
> > the difference between Arabic kalb 'dog' and qalb 'heart' without having
> > studied Arabic.)
> > --
> I wonder if Bulgakov's 'The Heart of a Dog' has ever been translated into
> Arabic? Anyone know what the title would come out as?
Qalbu l-kalbi, presumably.
Or, if preserving the respective articles is important, Al-qalbu
li-kalbin, perhaps.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Absolutely correct. As in D'ERD' Washington, or D'ERD' Gershwin. ;-)
It's not inconceivable that that's how those names would be pronounced
by a Hungarian-speaker who didn't know English but did know of the
equivalence George = György.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Yers ... so what you are trying to say is that I should not have
> suggested "Loo-toh-SWAV-ski" as a spelling for Hungarians, but rather,
> "Loo-toh-SZWAV-szki"?
That would not lead a Hungarian to anything approaching the correct
pronunciation of the vowels.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Uh-oh! Peter Daniels is going to give you the business on this one!
> That is "no tonic accent", rather than "no syllabic stress". There is a
> world of difference!
What _are_ you talking about??
We used to be able to count on Dr. Matt handing out linguistic
misinformation, but this morning you're doing it in spades!
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Czech composers' names are frequently mispronounced. I was in Brno recently,
> and was reliably informed by the Czechs of the following:
>
> Dvorak = Dvor-JARK (to rhyme with Noah's 'ark'), not the Dvor-JACK that you
> usually hear
There is no [r] in Dvor^a'k, either where it's spelled or where you put
them.
> Smetana = Smet -AA-na, not simple SMET-na, or SMET-a-na
> Janacek = Yan-AA-check, not YAN-a-check, the stress is on the second
> syllable
Those two are simply wrong. I don't know how you could get Smetana
wrong, but in the case of Jana'c^ek, you misheard the length of the
second vowel as accent. The names are SMEH-ta-na and YA-naa-check (both
difficult for English-speakers because they involve stressed short
vowels in open syllables, a phenomenon not usual in English).
> Martinu = MAR-tin-oo, not MAR-tin-yu (I think the contour is less pronounced
> than with the others, though).
I don't know what you mean by "contour," but I've also never encountered
-yu in this name. It's MAR-ti-noo.
> One very tricky one is Ustvolskaya. A Russian student I once had pronounced
> it something like Ust-WOY-ski-a. Can anyone else confirm this, or if not
> what the exact pronunciation is?
Dark l often sounds like a glide. Russian reduces unstressed vowels
something like English.
> And of course English is nothing like as systematic as many other languages
> with its pronunciation. Try explaining why we say Brian Fern-ee-HO, but
> Stephen HUFF.
Either their similar spellings conceal distinct etymologies, or their
names were standardized in different parts of England, with differing
dialectal realizations of the same ancestral sound.
Loekie Ratelkous
--
Loek
Ian Pace
> Ian Pace wrote:
>>
>> Czech composers' names are frequently mispronounced. I was in Brno
>> recently,
>> and was reliably informed by the Czechs of the following:
>>
>> Dvorak = Dvor-JARK (to rhyme with Noah's 'ark'), not the Dvor-JACK that
>> you
>> usually hear
>
> There is no [r] in Dvor^a'k, either where it's spelled or where you put
> them.
Well, that's most definitely how they pronounced it, and gave the 'ark'
analogy.
>
>> Smetana = Smet -AA-na, not simple SMET-na, or SMET-a-na
>> Janacek = Yan-AA-check, not YAN-a-check, the stress is on the second
>> syllable
>
> Those two are simply wrong. I don't know how you could get Smetana
> wrong, but in the case of Jana'c^ek, you misheard the length of the
> second vowel as accent. The names are SMEH-ta-na and YA-naa-check (both
> difficult for English-speakers because they involve stressed short
> vowels in open syllables, a phenomenon not usual in English).
The length of the middle vowels does create a stress of its own. Again this
is what the Czechs (who spoke good English) were at pains to point out. The
middle syllable in Smetana was definitely pronounced as an 'Ah' rather than
an 'a' (as in Northern English 'class', say). Certainly the common English
Janacek pronunciation, with nothing other than a stress on the first
syllable, is definitely wrong. The accentuated stresses in Czech don't seem
particularly pronounced (as compared, say, to Hungarian) in comparison to
the lengths of the syllables.
>
>> Martinu = MAR-tin-oo, not MAR-tin-yu (I think the contour is less
>> pronounced
>> than with the others, though).
>
> I don't know what you mean by "contour," but I've also never encountered
> -yu in this name. It's MAR-ti-noo.
I'm sure the meaning of "contour" in this context shouldn't be that
difficult. I've often heard it given a 'yu' at the end by people in Britain.
Ian Pace
> Ian Pace wrote:
>>
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> news:41DEE9...@worldnet.att.net...
>> >>> >>
>> > A native speaker of English is likely to hear the palatal obstruent as
>> > a
>> > "j," because that's the English sound closest to the Hungarian, but if
>> > you'd studied Hungarian, you wouldn't make that mistake.
>>
>> It's a much harder sound than English 'j'.
>
> If you mean "difficult," you're wrong, and if you don't, "hard" is not a
> word used in phonetics.
>
I'm sure it's pretty clear what's meant (and "hard" is commonly used to
describe sounds of words, whether a technical term or not).
Roman Turovsky
>> it something like Ust-WOY-ski-a. Can anyone else confirm this, or if not
>> what the exact pronunciation is?
no vowel after one.
Ustvol'skaya has a soft L that is difficult to render in English.
One way is to extract the sound from "sLeep" (as opposed to "sLip").
RT
--
http://polyhymnion.org/torban
Roman Turovsky
> Jerry Kohl schreef:
> [...]
>>
>> Machaut, oddly enough, is pronounced as if it were French, so the final
>> T is silent, and the CH has the value of Hungarian S ;-), that is,
>> English SH, so: ma-SHOH (no diphthong as in English "show").
>>
> Guillaume de Machaut?
> I have never considered the possibility that he would NOT be French.
> His first name Guillaume certainly s, and the prefix "de " is common in
> French, counterpart of Spanish de, German von and Dutch van.
How 'bout Ch. ce Coster?
RT
Joe Roberts
"Jerry Kohl" wrote:
> Ah. "Delius" is an especially bad example,
> since most English and American speakers
> will have differing ideas of how this is to be
> pronounced.
No problem here (Jacksonville, Florida). He lived near here, and folks are
pretty informal toward each other, so he's "Fred".
Joe
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:41DFE8...@worldnet.att.net...
> > Ian Pace wrote:
> >>
> >> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> >> news:41DEE9...@worldnet.att.net...
> >> >>> >>
> >> > A native speaker of English is likely to hear the palatal obstruent as a
> >> > "j," because that's the English sound closest to the Hungarian, but if
> >> > you'd studied Hungarian, you wouldn't make that mistake.
> >>
> >> It's a much harder sound than English 'j'.
> >
> > If you mean "difficult," you're wrong, and if you don't, "hard" is not a
> > word used in phonetics.
> >
> Is pedantry your middle name? Whether or not "hard" is used in phonetics,
> I'm sure it's pretty clear what's meant (and "hard" is commonly used to
> describe sounds of words, whether a technical term or not).
Perhaps you are a musician. If someone asked you to play the same tune
but make the third note higher, would you know what they were asking
for?
Now: Did you mean that you find it difficult to pronounce a voiced
palatal obstruent, or were you trying to express something about the
quality of voiced palatal obstruents, and if so, what?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:41DFEB...@worldnet.att.net...
> > Ian Pace wrote:
> >>
> >> Czech composers' names are frequently mispronounced. I was in Brno
> >> recently,
> >> and was reliably informed by the Czechs of the following:
> >>
> >> Dvorak = Dvor-JARK (to rhyme with Noah's 'ark'), not the Dvor-JACK that
> >> you
> >> usually hear
> >
> > There is no [r] in Dvor^a'k, either where it's spelled or where you put
> > them.
>
> Well, that's most definitely how they pronounced it, and gave the 'ark'
> analogy.
"Dvor^a'k" does not rhyme with "ark." "Ark" has an [r] in it, "Dvor^a'k"
doesn't.
> >> Smetana = Smet -AA-na, not simple SMET-na, or SMET-a-na
> >> Janacek = Yan-AA-check, not YAN-a-check, the stress is on the second
> >> syllable
> >
> > Those two are simply wrong. I don't know how you could get Smetana
> > wrong, but in the case of Jana'c^ek, you misheard the length of the
> > second vowel as accent. The names are SMEH-ta-na and YA-naa-check (both
> > difficult for English-speakers because they involve stressed short
> > vowels in open syllables, a phenomenon not usual in English).
>
> The length of the middle vowels does create a stress of its own.
An English-speaker unaccustomed to hearing distinctive vowel length is
likely to interpret a long vowel as a stressed vowel (since lengthening
is often a concomitant of stress in English). In Czech, however, length
and stress are separate phenomena, and your writing "Jana'c^ek" with a
stressed second syllable shows that you have interpreted the length as
stress. It isn't.
> Again this
> is what the Czechs (who spoke good English) were at pains to point out. The
> middle syllable in Smetana was definitely pronounced as an 'Ah' rather than
> an 'a' (as in Northern English 'class', say). Certainly the common English
I have no way of knowing what you're getting at with "Ah" vs. "a".
> Janacek pronunciation, with nothing other than a stress on the first
> syllable, is definitely wrong. The accentuated stresses in Czech don't seem
> particularly pronounced (as compared, say, to Hungarian) in comparison to
> the lengths of the syllables.
I don't know what "the common English Janacek pronunciation" may be, but
the word "Jana'c^ek" has two vowels of the same quality, the first of
them short and stressed, the second long and unstressed.
> >> Martinu = MAR-tin-oo, not MAR-tin-yu (I think the contour is less
> >> pronounced
> >> than with the others, though).
> >
> > I don't know what you mean by "contour," but I've also never encountered
> > -yu in this name. It's MAR-ti-noo.
>
> I'm sure the meaning of "contour" in this context shouldn't be that
> difficult. I've often heard it given a 'yu' at the end by people in Britain.
Brits are notorious for disrespecting the pronunciation of borrowed
words and proper names. Do they also leave the ring off the top of the
<u>?
Ian Pace
> Ian Pace wrote:
>>
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> news:41DFE8...@worldnet.att.net...
>> > Ian Pace wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:41DEE9...@worldnet.att.net...
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> > A native speaker of English is likely to hear the palatal obstruent
>> >> > as a
>> >> > "j," because that's the English sound closest to the Hungarian, but
>> >> > if
>> >> > you'd studied Hungarian, you wouldn't make that mistake.
>> >>
>> >> It's a much harder sound than English 'j'.
>> >
>> > If you mean "difficult," you're wrong, and if you don't, "hard" is not
>> > a
>> > word used in phonetics.
>> >
>> Is pedantry your middle name? Whether or not "hard" is used in phonetics,
>> I'm sure it's pretty clear what's meant (and "hard" is commonly used to
>> describe sounds of words, whether a technical term or not).
>
> Perhaps you are a musician. If someone asked you to play the same tune
> but make the third note higher, would you know what they were asking
> for?
>
for an increased duration. Such things as saying 'hard G' or 'soft G' are
commonly-used informal terms amongst English speakers, whether or not they
are as exact as phoneticians would like. Would you expect all informal talk
about music amongst non-specialists to be forbidden unless it made use of an
exact technical vocabulary?
Ian
Simon Smith
> "Dvor^a'k" does not rhyme with "ark." "Ark" has an [r] in it, "Dvor^a'k"
> doesn't.
There is a world outside the US. In most of England, as you know perfectly
well, the [r] in 'ark' is not pronounced.
> I have no way of knowing what you're getting at with "Ah" vs. "a".
No, of course you don't.
> Brits are notorious for disrespecting the pronunciation of borrowed
> words and proper names.
As opposed to the Americans, who do it perfectly every time, obviously.
--
Simon Smith "I am myself only in music. Music is enough
http://www.ingemisco.com for a whole lifetime - but a lifetime is not
enough for music." (Sergei Rachmaninov)
Ian Pace
"Simon Smith" <sd...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:7758222a...@sds46.clare.cam.ac.uk...
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> Brits are notorious for disrespecting the pronunciation of borrowed
>> words and proper names.
>
> As opposed to the Americans, who do it perfectly every time, obviously.
>
adapting their pronunciation (or even their spelling) accordingly? Hasn't
that gone on throughout the history of European languages? In Britain,
making a point of speaking a borrowed word or phrase with a highly
pronounced accent of the original language is generally seen as
attention-seeking and pretentious, causing it to stand out from the rest of
the sentence as much as possible.
Now, if I mention the name of Herman Melville or Jackson Pollock or Morton
Feldman in a sentence, should I adopt an American accent for the purposes
just of those words? Or, better still, a regional accent according to each
of their places of birth? How about for T.S. Eliot, American-born but who
came to adopt a relatively high class British accent (I'm assuming he spoke
differently when he was younger)?
Ian
Gareth Williams
> Brits are notorious for disrespecting the pronunciation of borrowed
> words and proper names.
With sincere respect, to you and to our English contributors, I think
you'll find that it's largely the *English* and not the Brits in general
who are guilty of disrespecting foreign pronunciation. They even find
difficulty, or don't even attempt, to correctly pronounce some British
places and proper names (viz. "Lock Ness", "Portmerrion", "Bryn Turfle",
"Daffid of the White Rock" etc.)
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Peter T. Daniels
How much higher?
> for an increased duration. Such things as saying 'hard G' or 'soft G' are
> commonly-used informal terms amongst English speakers, whether or not they
> are as exact as phoneticians would like. Would you expect all informal talk
> about music amongst non-specialists to be forbidden unless it made use of an
> exact technical vocabulary?
When referring to English spelling, "hard g" means the stop
pronunciation, "soft g" means the affricate pronunciation (like "j"). It
doesn't mean anything wrt Hungarian, or wrt sounds generally, and it's
not a cline -- something can't be "harder" than j or "softer" than g.
The Hungarian sound is simply not found in English, and comparing it to
English g or j will simply give you a lousy accent and possibly get you
misunderstood.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > "Dvor^a'k" does not rhyme with "ark." "Ark" has an [r] in it, "Dvor^a'k"
> > doesn't.
>
> There is a world outside the US. In most of England, as you know perfectly
> well, the [r] in 'ark' is not pronounced.
>
> > I have no way of knowing what you're getting at with "Ah" vs. "a".
>
> No, of course you don't.
>
> > Brits are notorious for disrespecting the pronunciation of borrowed
> > words and proper names.
>
> As opposed to the Americans, who do it perfectly every time, obviously.
American pronunciations of borrowed words are usually closer to the
originals -- e.g. "garage."
Cf. also *Goodbye, Mr. Chips*, a whole movie about the refusal of the
older generation of English Latinists to pronounce the language the way
Cicero did.
Peter T. Daniels
No, you should not code-switch. But there is no reason to say "GARRige"
rather than "gaRAHZH."
Peter T. Daniels
Oh? What's Scots for "garage"? How is it pronounced in the Welsh and
Irish varieties of English?
Gareth Williams
If you're talking about differences in regional pronunciation, then
there's a world of difference between accents etc and the refusal to
respect the fact that the Scottish (or Welsh) "ch" should be pronounced
like "kh" and that the Welsh "f" is pronounced "v" and that Scots, Welsh
and Gaelic vowels tend to be flattened.
As for "garage" you'll find that some people will say "gu-rahj" but that
many Brits (including large areas of England) tend to use "garridge".
That may be wrong, maybe, but when the word was imported into English (NB)
that's what we got lumbered with. Not only that, but it's become part of
the language, in contradistinction to words or names from other countries.
Try "Bark", "Bay-towe-ven", "Mowe-tzaaht", "Vuughdi", "Non Nowe-bis
Dominay", "Mye-kuhl-anjuhl-owe" etc and you'll get closer to the point.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Gareth Williams
Really? Let's see what a little word-search (thanks to GNU grep) reveals...
acreage adage advantage age amperage anchorage appendage assemblage
assuage average backstage badinage baggage bandage barrage beverage
birdcage blockage bondage breakage brigandage brokerage cabbage cage
camouflage carnage carriage cartilage cleavage coinage collage corsage
cottage counterespionage courage coverage cribbage damage disadvantage
discourage disengage disparage dosage dotage downstage drainage dressage
encourage engage enrage entourage envisage equipage espionage foliage
footage forage frontage fuselage gage garage garbage hemorrhage herbage
heritage hermitage homage homepage hostage image intermarriage language
leakage leverage lineage linkage luggage manage marriage massage menage
message mileage millage mirage miscarriage mismanage montage mortgage
mucilage offstage orphanage outage outrage overage package page parentage
parsonage passage pasturage patronage peerage peonage percentage
persiflage personage pilgrimage pillage plumage porage portage postage
pottage prepackage presage rage rampage ravage remarriage repackage
reportage roughage rummage sabotage sage salvage sausage savage scrimmage
seepage selvage sewage sewerage shortage shrinkage silage slippage
spillage spoilage stage steerage stoppage storage suffrage teenage tillage
tonnage triage tutelage umbrage underage undercarriage upstage usage
vantage vassalage verbiage vicarage village vintage visage voltage voyage
wage wastage wattage wreckage yardage
How many "AHZH" pronunciations do you recommend we should convert to using
in our daily lives?
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
alanwa...@aol.com
(Cork and Kerry), Connemara Gaelic (a life of it's own) and the
hilariously named Ulster Gaelic, annexed and absorbed from the border
closest to them (Co Donegal) when The Six Counties decided that a
chunk of Ireland belonged to another country:):)
However, the chance of a member of the Six Counties being able to carry
on a decent conversation in Gaelic in either Killybegs, Bruckless or
Raphoe (or Letterkenny for that matter) is marginal.
And when they come to Dublin, they can't even work out where the buses
are going to.
An Lar and all that. If they venture to Co Kerry I guess that they
might get Tralee from Trali but what would they make of Daingean? Not
much, usually.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
(Born pretty nearly midway between Trali and Daingean)
Peter T. Daniels
Ooh, you know how to use a reverse dictionary!
Unfortunately you don't know how to edit your list -- "stage" and
"upstage," for instance, have nothing to do with the point.
Words borrowed from Modern French would have pronunciations resembling
those in Modern French. Those would include camouflage, collage,
dressage, entourage, espionage, fuselage, garage, hemorrhage, massage,
menage, mirage, montage, persiflage, reportage, sabotage, and triage.
Which ones don't you pronounce with "AHZH"?
Peter T. Daniels
You objected when I said that "Brits" rather than "Englishpersons"
mutilate the pronunciations of French words in a way that Americans
don't. You now concede that "many Brits" do so.
Hark, hark, the dogs do bark.
There's an r in Mozart, and I don't know what the next one is supposed
to be.
The other three are exactly how a monolingual English-speaker would be
expected to pronounce Beethoven, Non nobis Domine, and Michelangelo.
As for "when the word was imported," it most certainly was not
pronounced something like "GARRidge" in French. English has been
borrowing French words for nigh unto a millennium now, and there are
many doublets and even a few triplets of English words borrowed at
different times over the centuries from the same French word but for
which the French pronunciation had changed meanwhile.
Gareth Williams
> Gareth Williams wrote:
>
>> > No, you should not code-switch. But there is no reason to say "GARRige"
>> > rather than "gaRAHZH."
>>
>> Really? Let's see what a little word-search (thanks to GNU grep) reveals...
>>
>> acreage adage advantage age amperage anchorage appendage assemblage
<over 100 "-age" words snipped>
>> wage wastage wattage wreckage yardage
>>
>> How many "AHZH" pronunciations do you recommend we should convert to using
>> in our daily lives?
>
> Ooh, you know how to use a reverse dictionary!
Eh?
> Unfortunately you don't know how to edit your list -- "stage" and
> "upstage," for instance, have nothing to do with the point.
I included them for completeness, lest a nitpicker like yourself accuse me
of censorship. I even left "parentage" in there, although I suspected
that its inclusion would have offended you even more.
> Words borrowed from Modern French would have pronunciations resembling
> those in Modern French. Those would include camouflage, collage,
> dressage, entourage, espionage, fuselage, garage, hemorrhage, massage,
> menage, mirage, montage, persiflage, reportage, sabotage, and triage.
> Which ones don't you pronounce with "AHZH"?
My point is that English words (borrowed or otherwise) ending in "-age"
and pronounced "-idge" far outnumber those pronounced "-ahzh". To go back
to your assertion that there is "no good reason" to pronounce "garage" as
an "-idge" word, that is clearly twaddle when "suffrage", "porage",
"vicarage", "tutelage" etc etc etc etc etc etc bloody well *are*. That
doesn't make it right, one way or another, but there are clear precedents
nonethless.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Gareth Williams
> You objected when I said that "Brits" rather than "Englishpersons"
> mutilate the pronunciations of French words in a way that Americans
> don't.
You never said that. You originally said that "Brits are notorious for
disrespecting the pronunciation of borrowed words and proper names".
French didn't enter into it. You then came back with "garage".
Whoop-de-do!
> You now concede that "many Brits" do so.
For some words that have entered the general vocabulary, maybe. But not
*foreign* - not just French - words or *foreign* proper names *outside*
the language, which is the point that I made, whether your suspect
occipitotemporal lobes picked up on that or not.
>> Try "Bark", "Bay-towe-ven", "Mowe-tzaaht", "Vuughdi", "Non Nowe-bis
>> Dominay", "Mye-kuhl-anjuhl-owe" etc and you'll get closer to the point.
> Hark, hark, the dogs do bark.
>
> There's an r in Mozart,
I was attempting to avoid confusion with unsounded "rs" ...
> and I don't know what the next one is supposed to be.
... or unpronounced "rs", as many monoglot English speakers are guilty of
when they avoid saying "Verrrrrdi".
> The other three are exactly how a monolingual English-speaker would be
> expected to pronounce Beethoven, Non nobis Domine, and Michelangelo.
Why should that still be in these enlightened days? Why should monoglot
English-speakers persist in assuming that every other language is as laced
with diphthongs as theirs? Whatever happened to making an effort?
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Gareth Williams
> Words borrowed from Modern French would have pronunciations resembling
> those in Modern French. Those would include camouflage, collage,
> dressage, entourage, espionage, fuselage, garage, hemorrhage
OK up to a point, but I just noticed - h(a)emorrhage a French word? Do me
a faveur!
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Ian Pace
>> >
>> > Perhaps you are a musician. If someone asked you to play the same tune
>> > but make the third note higher, would you know what they were asking
>> > for?
>> >
>> Yes, higher in pitch. It would be 'louder' for a higher dynamic, or
>> 'longer'
>
> How much higher?
Perhaps the same question could be asked of a comment such as 'a soprano
voice is higher than a contralto'. Invalid without an exact interval
specified? And does the same apply to 'louder' without the appendage of an
exact number of decibels?
>
>> for an increased duration. Such things as saying 'hard G' or 'soft G' are
>> commonly-used informal terms amongst English speakers, whether or not
>> they
>> are as exact as phoneticians would like. Would you expect all informal
>> talk
>> about music amongst non-specialists to be forbidden unless it made use of
>> an
>> exact technical vocabulary?
>
> When referring to English spelling, "hard g" means the stop
> pronunciation, "soft g" means the affricate pronunciation (like "j"). It
> doesn't mean anything wrt Hungarian, or wrt sounds generally, and it's
> not a cline -- something can't be "harder" than j or "softer" than g.
> The Hungarian sound is simply not found in English, and comparing it to
> English g or j will simply give you a lousy accent and possibly get you
> misunderstood.
> --
You'll be aware that I said it was 'harder' than an English 'j', when it was
compared to such. Perhaps 'harsher' would be more appropriate? Of course
there's vagueness and ambiguity in both terms, but like many words, they do
have some generally understood meaning when used in a particular context.
A non-musician might describe a performance as 'lyrical' or 'poetic', terms
which possess a relatively high degree of ambiguity. Still, these terms
communicate some sort of meaning which most non-pedants will understand, or
at least will 'resonate'. I dislike both terms (and most purple prose) when
used by specialists, especially 'poetic' (whose essential meaning to me, as
distinct from 'prosaic', cannot imply anything other than a degree of
formalism). Nonetheless, if we can't accept that non-specialists are allowed
to use more vague metaphors, in the knowledge that the received usage of
such terms contains some kernel of relatively objective meaning, then we
might as well forbid such people from ever expressing an opinion on a work
of music or its performance.
Ian
Ian Pace
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:41E04A...@worldnet.att.net...
pronunciation when they use the name of someone from Spain? Isn't this part
of the process of respecting/disrespecting the pronunciation of proper
names?
Also, if I speak of Frank Zappa's album 'Joe's Garage', as I would pronounce
'Joe' like it were the name of an Englishman, wouldn't it be most arcane to
then adopt the American pronunciation of 'Garage'?
I wonder what to do about the Abel Ferrara film 'Bad Lieutenant'? Or the
(admittedly rancid) film 'Rancid Aluminium' - the latter word is even spelt
differently ('Aluminum', isn't it?) in American English?
All of these issues do have interesting implications when encountering
musical phrases that allude to styles/genres distinct from the 'native
idiom' of the piece (I'm sure there's a better term than that, but I can't
think of one offhand). I think there's some essay by Reinhard Goebel
questioning the use of overdotting in Bach's movements in French style, on
the basis that it's apparently unlikely that Bach ever heard French
musicians performing in this style. Anyone have more information/thoughts
(in particular, the Goebel text would be great) on this? And should one
'code-switch' when encountering a quotation, musically 'pronouncing' it in
its original idiom, or in the idiom that surrounds it? Especially when it's
not an exact quotation? If one does 'code-switch', that is surely more
likely to highlight the fact of the quotation, which may or may not be a
desirable outcome. These are questions I'd be hard-pressed to find an
all-purpose answer for, when looking at the very different music of (to take
a few examples) Chopin, Brahms, Bartok, Stravinsky, Zimmermann, Radulescu or
Finnissy (and many many others, including lots of earlier composers). Do,
for example, the generic qualities of a Chopin Polonaise (and of course
there are various different polonaise generes), supply answers to questions
of rhythmic placement, phrasing, articulation, stresses and
counter-stresses, etc., where these things remain ambiguous either in type
or degree from the notation, or is one better to take one's cues from the
qualities of the music that are unique and personal to Chopin over and above
the genres he inhabits? Certainly many extremely fine Chopin players have
different answers to this question.
I'm not looking to pick arguments, by the way, these are just issues that
interest me. My teacher had some quite distinct views, though occasionally
contradictory, on these issues in the context of the music of Bartok (with
whom he studied); once in an interview he said something like 'Play it like
Chopin or Liszt, forget the ethnic qualities'. One could conceivably turn
this argument on its head to say 'Bring out the ethnic qualities like one
would in Chopin or Liszt' (admittedly probably more likely in the former
than the latter). Webern suggested to play his Variations Op. 27 'like a
Brahms Intermezzo' - presumably that implies the common stylistic approach
to playing Brahms Intermezzi in Vienna at the time Webern wrote the piece?
Was this stylistic approach particularly different to that adopted for most
other music (but distinct from an emerging 'modern' style)?
Ian
Risto Karttunen
>
> How do you personally pronounce Magnus Lindberg's name? Is it something like
> Ma-NY-us LIND-Bary (with a very short 'y' at the end, the 'bary' almost like
> one syllable)? As this seems a Swedish name, how is he pronounced, being a
> Finn.
>
Only the Swedish way is possible in this case, and I would say
'Ma-NY-us' is more like Swedish pronounced in foolishly snobbish Finnish
(!). Admittedly, the Finns who have Swedish as their native language
pronounce Swedish a bit differently than the Swedish.
I'm answering too hastily now, because next week I'll probably see a
Swedish-speaking Finnish friend of mine, and I'll ask him about this to
be sure, but I guess he pronounces the 'Mag' like 'mug' in English and
puts the stress on it. If I am wrong, I'll post a correction to this.
The next 'u' is like 'o' in 'woman', but - as you may know - the Swedish
'u' is more closed. The lips should be puckered more.
LIND-bary is OK.
>
> I'm thinking about IN-y-mar, BARY-man. Let alone the common
> mispronunciations by English-speaking people of YO-tun-bury (Gothenburg - is
> that roughly correct)?
>
I would say no, but perhaps I'm just misinterpreting your transcription.
Firstly, it is written 'Göteborg' in Swedish. To go step by step:
'G' really is like 'Y' in 'yes'.
'ö' is an 'o' with two dots (an umlaut) and prounounced like 'u' in
'burden'.
There should be no aspiration after the 't'.
'e' is pronounced as in 'get'.
'borg' (meaning a castle) is like that BARY, but in this case BORY,
where the 'o' is pronounced as in 'oil'.
--
risto
Gareth Williams
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:41E04A...@worldnet.att.net...
>>
>> No, you should not code-switch. But there is no reason to say "GARRige"
>> rather than "gaRAHZH."
>>
> OK, then should a Latin American speaker of Spanish adopt the lisping
> pronunciation when they use the name of someone from Spain?
Many of us now use "Plathido" instead of what we used to pronounce as
"Plassido" when Domingo first appeared on the scene.
Likewise "de Los Ankheleth" for "de Los Anjelees", "Olathabal" for
"Olazabal", "Ba-yesteros" for "Ballysteros", "faheeta" for "fud-jeeta" etc.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Jaakko Mantyjarvi
>
> How do you personally pronounce Magnus Lindberg's name? Is it something like
> Ma-NY-us LIND-Bary (with a very short 'y' at the end, the 'bary' almost like
> one syllable)? As this seems a Swedish name, how is he pronounced, being a
> that roughly correct)?
Risto covered your other points, so may I just add that Ingmar Bergman
is pronounced ING-mar BARY-man, the 'NG' combination in Swedish (and in
Finnish, for that matter) being always pronounced as in English. 'G' in
Swedish only turns into the sound of 'Y' in English 'year' when it
precedes a front vowel and is not part of the 'NG' combination. For
example, note the difference between two words that are spelled exactly
the same in English and Swedish, 'golf' and 'given'. The former is
pronounced the same in both (yes, Peter, I know there is actually a
slight difference in vowel quality), while 'given' in Swedish is
pronounced YEE-ven.
--
Regards,
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Helsinki, Finland
"Nil significat nisi oscillat. Du vap. Du vap. Du vap."
Jaakko Mantyjarvi
Not to mention that 'haemorrhage' is pronounced -idge and not -AHZH. But
then it did come to English through Middle French instead of being
borrowed as late as in the 19th century as is the case for 'garage'.
Ian Pace
"Jaakko Mantyjarvi" <jaakko.m...@welho.com=> wrote in message
news:crr5e8$tsf$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
pronounce your name?
Best,
Ian
Peter T. Daniels
_If_ those words are borrowed directly from French, rather than formed
from a root + "age" in English (which is a very big _if_), how were they
pronounced _in French_ _at the time of the borrowing_?
"Garage" is not formed from a root + "age"; it is a direct borrowing
from French at a time when the French word was pronounced /ga'raZ/.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Gareth Williams wrote:
> > On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:28:53 +0000, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> >>Words borrowed from Modern French would have pronunciations resembling
> >>those in Modern French. Those would include camouflage, collage,
> >>dressage, entourage, espionage, fuselage, garage, hemorrhage
> >
> > OK up to a point, but I just noticed - h(a)emorrhage a French word? Do me
> > a faveur!
>
> Not to mention that 'haemorrhage' is pronounced -idge and not -AHZH. But
> then it did come to English through Middle French instead of being
> borrowed as late as in the 19th century as is the case for 'garage'.
It would seem that you, too, pronounce English as if you were British
rather than American.
Peter T. Daniels
> >> Try "Bark", "Bay-towe-ven", "Mowe-tzaaht", "Vuughdi", "Non Nowe-bis
> >> Dominay", "Mye-kuhl-anjuhl-owe" etc and you'll get closer to the point.
>
> > Hark, hark, the dogs do bark.
> >
> > There's an r in Mozart,
>
> I was attempting to avoid confusion with unsounded "rs" ...
A recent prestige variant found in a small part of Britain and portions
of North America originally settled from their.
> > and I don't know what the next one is supposed to be.
>
> ... or unpronounced "rs", as many monoglot English speakers are guilty of
> when they avoid saying "Verrrrrdi".
Could you give an example of a word with a sound whose pronunciation you
would symbolize as "uugh"?
> > The other three are exactly how a monolingual English-speaker would be
> > expected to pronounce Beethoven, Non nobis Domine, and Michelangelo.
>
> Why should that still be in these enlightened days? Why should monoglot
> English-speakers persist in assuming that every other language is as laced
> with diphthongs as theirs? Whatever happened to making an effort?
This thread _started out_ by saying No, you should not code-switch.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 03:21:30 +0000, Ian Pace wrote:
>
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:41E04A...@worldnet.att.net...
> >>
> >> No, you should not code-switch. But there is no reason to say "GARRige"
> >> rather than "gaRAHZH."
> >>
> > OK, then should a Latin American speaker of Spanish adopt the lisping
> > pronunciation when they use the name of someone from Spain?
No.
> Many of us now use "Plathido" instead of what we used to pronounce as
> "Plassido" when Domingo first appeared on the scene.
Pure affectation, since Mr. Domingo says "plasido."
> Likewise "de Los Ankheleth" for "de Los Anjelees", "Olathabal" for
> "Olazabal", "Ba-yesteros" for "Ballysteros", "faheeta" for "fud-jeeta" etc.
I don't know what the middle two are, but the first and last are
correct.
Peter T. Daniels
> >> Now, if I mention the name of Herman Melville or Jackson Pollock or Morton
> >> Feldman in a sentence, should I adopt an American accent for the purposes
> >> just of those words? Or, better still, a regional accent according to each
> >> of their places of birth? How about for T.S. Eliot, American-born but who
> >> came to adopt a relatively high class British accent (I'm assuming he spoke
> >> differently when he was younger)?
> >
> > No, you should not code-switch. But there is no reason to say "GARRige"
> > rather than "gaRAHZH."
> > --
> OK, then should a Latin American speaker of Spanish adopt the lisping
> pronunciation when they use the name of someone from Spain? Isn't this part
> of the process of respecting/disrespecting the pronunciation of proper
> names?
Why are you introducing "proper names"? Code-switching is especially
annoying when newscasters (UK: newsreaders) do it to personal and
geographic names in the stories they are reporting.
> Also, if I speak of Frank Zappa's album 'Joe's Garage', as I would pronounce
> 'Joe' like it were the name of an Englishman, wouldn't it be most arcane to
> then adopt the American pronunciation of 'Garage'?
>
> I wonder what to do about the Abel Ferrara film 'Bad Lieutenant'? Or the
> (admittedly rancid) film 'Rancid Aluminium' - the latter word is even spelt
> differently ('Aluminum', isn't it?) in American English?
Is "Joe" pronounced differently over there (aside from any normal
difference in the realization of /ow/)?
But I've never heard of any of these three examples of yours.
Gareth Williams
> Gareth Williams wrote:
>
>> >> Try "Bark", "Bay-towe-ven", "Mowe-tzaaht", "Vuughdi", "Non Nowe-bis
>> >> Dominay", "Mye-kuhl-anjuhl-owe" etc and you'll get closer to the point.
>>
>> > Hark, hark, the dogs do bark.
>> >
>> > There's an r in Mozart,
>>
>> I was attempting to avoid confusion with unsounded "rs" ...
>
> A recent prestige variant found in a small part of Britain and portions
> of North America originally settled from their.
>
>> > and I don't know what the next one is supposed to be.
>>
>> ... or unpronounced "rs", as many monoglot English speakers are guilty of
>> when they avoid saying "Verrrrrdi".
>
> Could you give an example of a word with a sound whose pronunciation you
> would symbolize as "uugh"?
I suppose "sir" ("suugh") and "dirty" ("duughty"). English is such an
unphonetic language it's difficult to represent such subtleties - my
keyboard does not extend to the phonetic alphabet.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Peter T. Daniels
> > Could you give an example of a word with a sound whose pronunciation you
> > would symbolize as "uugh"?
>
> I suppose "sir" ("suugh") and "dirty" ("duughty"). English is such an
> unphonetic language it's difficult to represent such subtleties - my
> keyboard does not extend to the phonetic alphabet.
There are well-known conventions for representing phonetic symbols in
ASCII, but I wonder whether you can explain why you chose "uugh" for
that sound?
To me it suggests Southern US "suh" for "sir," but not RP "sir," which
has a vowel the same as the General American minus the r. (Neither of
which fits "Verdi," which could be respelled VAIRdi.)
Gareth Williams
> Gareth Williams wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 03:21:30 +0000, Ian Pace wrote:
>>
>> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> > news:41E04A...@worldnet.att.net...
>> >>
>> >> No, you should not code-switch. But there is no reason to say "GARRige"
>> >> rather than "gaRAHZH."
>> >>
>> > OK, then should a Latin American speaker of Spanish adopt the lisping
>> > pronunciation when they use the name of someone from Spain?
>
> No.
Why not make the effort, within reason? You come up with a bald "no" as
if you are the sole custodian of universal laws.
>> Many of us now use "Plathido" instead of what we used to pronounce as
>> "Plassido" when Domingo first appeared on the scene.
>
> Pure affectation, since Mr. Domingo says "plasido."
Without prejudice - are you sure about that?
>> Likewise "de Los Ankheleth" for "de Los Anjelees", "Olathabal" for
>> "Olazabal", "Ba-yesteros" for "Ballysteros", "faheeta" for "fud-jeeta"
>> etc.
>
> I don't know what the middle two are, but the first and last are correct.
Not a follower of golf, then? The point being, of course, that sloppy
mispronunciations we may have perpetrated ignorantly in the past have
become superseded, in some cases, with correct pronunciations that
acknowledge and respect the native pronunciation of those words.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Gareth Williams
You seriously say "h(a)emorrAHZH" Stateside? First I've heard of that.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Ian Pace
> Ian Pace wrote:
>>
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>
>> >> Now, if I mention the name of Herman Melville or Jackson Pollock or
>> >> Morton
>> >> Feldman in a sentence, should I adopt an American accent for the
>> >> purposes
>> >> just of those words? Or, better still, a regional accent according to
>> >> each
>> >> of their places of birth? How about for T.S. Eliot, American-born but
>> >> who
>> >> came to adopt a relatively high class British accent (I'm assuming he
>> >> spoke
>> >> differently when he was younger)?
>> >
>> > No, you should not code-switch. But there is no reason to say "GARRige"
>> > rather than "gaRAHZH."
>> > --
>> OK, then should a Latin American speaker of Spanish adopt the lisping
>> pronunciation when they use the name of someone from Spain? Isn't this
>> part
>> of the process of respecting/disrespecting the pronunciation of proper
>> names?
>
> Why are you introducing "proper names"? Code-switching is especially
> annoying when newscasters (UK: newsreaders) do it to personal and
> geographic names in the stories they are reporting.
Because you said earlier in the thread that 'Brits are notorious for
disrespecting the pronunciation of borrowed
words and proper names.' I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that, by the
way, but when I hear Americans pronounce Monet, Van Gogh, Budweiser or
Horowitz, I wonder how they are any better?
On the series 'Not the Nine O'Clock News' some 20 or more years ago, Pamela
Stephenson used to do wicked parodies of that sort of code-switching on the
part of UK newsreaders.
>
>> Also, if I speak of Frank Zappa's album 'Joe's Garage', as I would
>> pronounce
>> 'Joe' like it were the name of an Englishman, wouldn't it be most arcane
>> to
>> then adopt the American pronunciation of 'Garage'?
>>
>> I wonder what to do about the Abel Ferrara film 'Bad Lieutenant'? Or the
>> (admittedly rancid) film 'Rancid Aluminium' - the latter word is even
>> spelt
>> differently ('Aluminum', isn't it?) in American English?
>
> Is "Joe" pronounced differently over there (aside from any normal
> difference in the realization of /ow/)?
That's the difference I mean, seems as a general rule that the /ow/ is
shorter and more clipped, at least in middle-class English. Obviously
regional accents differ in various ways. I don't know if you define that as
a pronunciation difference or not, but wouldn't there therefore be
incongruity if it was combined with an American 'garage'?
>
> But I've never heard of any of these three examples of yours.
> --
That's pretty immaterial, as we're only discussing the pronunciation of
their titles. As I'm sure you know, 'Lieutenant' is pronounced very
differently in Britain (something like LEFF-te-nant), so if an Englishman is
speaking of this American film, do you think they should pronounce it in an
American or an English way? 'Rancid Aluminium' is a (terrible) British film,
should an American pronounce and/or spell 'Aluminium' in the British or the
American way?
Ian
Gareth Williams
True, but you keep banging on about this one example, when I gave you a
host of words (some even borrowed from the French) where the "-idge"
ending is common to both British and American English. These include such
common words as baggage, bandage, beverage, courage, damage, envisage,
language, mortgate, plumage, salvage and voyage (confirmed by the Oxford
English Dictionary).
Since there is such an overwhelming historical precedent for using the
"-idge" ending for these borrowed or adapted French words it is reasonable
to assume that an ordinary person, seeing the word "garage" for the first
time in 1902 (the year listed in the OED for its first known usAHZH in
English) would have pronounced it "garridge", this refuting your absurd
claim to the contrary.
So, as "garridge", it passed into the common way of speaking in some parts
of the world. Furthermore, it passed into the English language *itself*
and so it is understandable that it be given a "local" pronunciation. This
is not the case with Bach, Terfel, I Musici (once heard pronounced risibly
as "Eye Music Eye") and other non-English proper names, place names and
words which should be given the respect they deserve when we attempt to
pronounce them.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Gareth Williams
You see, I'd have pronounced that "VAEERdi" - just because English renders
"AIR" to rhyme with "there" one can't assume that everybody else does.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Peter T. Daniels
> > _If_ those words are borrowed directly from French, rather than formed
> > from a root + "age" in English (which is a very big _if_), how were they
> > pronounced _in French_ _at the time of the borrowing_?
> >
> > "Garage" is not formed from a root + "age"; it is a direct borrowing
> > from French at a time when the French word was pronounced /ga'raZ/.
>
> True, but you keep banging on about this one example, when I gave you a
> host of words (some even borrowed from the French) where the "-idge"
> ending is common to both British and American English. These include such
> common words as baggage, bandage, beverage, courage, damage, envisage,
> language, mortgate, plumage, salvage and voyage (confirmed by the Oxford
> English Dictionary).
If you can't get the difference among words borrowed long ago, words
borrowed recently, and words not borrowed at all but formed in English,
I can't help you.
> Since there is such an overwhelming historical precedent for using the
> "-idge" ending for these borrowed or adapted French words it is reasonable
> to assume that an ordinary person, seeing the word "garage" for the first
> time in 1902 (the year listed in the OED for its first known usAHZH in
> English) would have pronounced it "garridge", this refuting your absurd
> claim to the contrary.
Words are borrowed by speakers, not by readers.
> So, as "garridge", it passed into the common way of speaking in some parts
> of the world. Furthermore, it passed into the English language *itself*
> and so it is understandable that it be given a "local" pronunciation. This
> is not the case with Bach, Terfel, I Musici (once heard pronounced risibly
> as "Eye Music Eye") and other non-English proper names, place names and
> words which should be given the respect they deserve when we attempt to
> pronounce them.
The last can legitimately be "Ee moozichee." As for the Welsh singer,
it's unfortunate that both English and the Celtic languages have
deviated vastly from the historic pronunciations of the letters -- in
very different ways.
Peter T. Daniels
HEMuhrahzh, not HEMuhridge. (The last vowel unreduced.)
There's no "(a)" in it, but tune in to any medical drama. "He's
HEMorrahzhing!"
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:26:45 +0000, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > Gareth Williams wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 03:21:30 +0000, Ian Pace wrote:
> >>
> >> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> >> > news:41E04A...@worldnet.att.net...
> >> >>
> >> >> No, you should not code-switch. But there is no reason to say "GARRige"
> >> >> rather than "gaRAHZH."
> >> >>
> >> > OK, then should a Latin American speaker of Spanish adopt the lisping
> >> > pronunciation when they use the name of someone from Spain?
> >
> > No.
>
> Why not make the effort, within reason? You come up with a bald "no" as
> if you are the sole custodian of universal laws.
Code-switching is an affectation -- it sounds like the perpetrator is
putting on airs, proving that s/he knows the "correct" pronunciation.
> >> Many of us now use "Plathido" instead of what we used to pronounce as
> >> "Plassido" when Domingo first appeared on the scene.
> >
> > Pure affectation, since Mr. Domingo says "plasido."
>
> Without prejudice - are you sure about that?
I watched the WNO' Fledermaus on New Year's Eve. He sang in the gala,
and was introduced as "Plasido Domingo." Since he's the boss, he could
have instructed the major-domo to use a different pronunciation if that
was not correct.
> >> Likewise "de Los Ankheleth" for "de Los Anjelees", "Olathabal" for
> >> "Olazabal", "Ba-yesteros" for "Ballysteros", "faheeta" for "fud-jeeta"
> >> etc.
> >
> > I don't know what the middle two are, but the first and last are correct.
>
> Not a follower of golf, then?
I cannot _imagine_ how it's a spectator sport.
> The point being, of course, that sloppy
> mispronunciations we may have perpetrated ignorantly in the past have
> become superseded, in some cases, with correct pronunciations that
> acknowledge and respect the native pronunciation of those words.
There is a difference between transposing another language's sounds into
English -- for instance, if we said "Plathido" without trying to
undiphthongize the vowels -- and code-switching: "Berlin" is a good
example; it would be bizarre to say "bearleen."
Peter T. Daniels
So how would I know that something I've never heard of is an American
film?
> American or an English way? 'Rancid Aluminium' is a (terrible) British film,
> should an American pronounce and/or spell 'Aluminium' in the British or the
> American way?
An American would be unlikely to notice the misspelling, since words are
generally recognized by their outline and context rather than by
observing each letter. (I didn't notice it.)
Gareth Williams
There is in the British spelling, where Greek diphthongs are usually
acknowledged, viz encyclopaedia, oesophagus, oestrogen. In the case of
"haemorrhage" the UK spelling preserves the link to the (Latinised) Greek
root "haima". In your case the word would appear to have derived from
"hem", which is slightly confusing in this context, except perhaps if
someone is losing blood through a burst suture.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Gareth Williams
> Gareth Williams wrote:
>
>> > _If_ those words are borrowed directly from French, rather than formed
>> > from a root + "age" in English (which is a very big _if_), how were they
>> > pronounced _in French_ _at the time of the borrowing_?
>> >
>> > "Garage" is not formed from a root + "age"; it is a direct borrowing
>> > from French at a time when the French word was pronounced /ga'raZ/.
>>
>> True, but you keep banging on about this one example, when I gave you a
>> host of words (some even borrowed from the French) where the "-idge"
>> ending is common to both British and American English. These include such
>> common words as baggage, bandage, beverage, courage, damage, envisage,
>> language, mortgate, plumage, salvage and voyage (confirmed by the Oxford
>> English Dictionary).
>
> If you can't get the difference among words borrowed long ago, words
> borrowed recently, and words not borrowed at all but formed in English,
> I can't help you.
I fully understand the distinction you're making, it's you who is failing
to understand that the overwhelming weight of familiarity favours the
"-idge" ending, even for borrowed French words.
>> Since there is such an overwhelming historical precedent for using the
>> "-idge" ending for these borrowed or adapted French words it is reasonable
>> to assume that an ordinary person, seeing the word "garage" for the first
>> time in 1902 (the year listed in the OED for its first known usAHZH in
>> English) would have pronounced it "garridge", this refuting your absurd
>> claim to the contrary.
>
> Words are borrowed by speakers, not by readers.
Not if you see the word "garage" swinging over a 1902 forecourt as you
toddle past in your vintage Mercedes you don't. Or are you such a rare
individual that you refuse to attempt to pronounce a word until someone
actually speaks it to you?
>> So, as "garridge", it passed into the common way of speaking in some parts
>> of the world. Furthermore, it passed into the English language *itself*
>> and so it is understandable that it be given a "local" pronunciation. This
>> is not the case with Bach, Terfel, I Musici (once heard pronounced risibly
>> as "Eye Music Eye")
>
> The last can legitimately be "Ee moozichee."
It *is* "Ee moozichee", but only to people who understand how to pronounce
Italian (or Latin) words properly. "Eye Music Eye" is a pronunciation
that was either born out of ignorance, or out of a blase "never mind
Johnny Foreigner, this is how we bloody well speak here" attitude.
> As for the Welsh singer, it's unfortunate that both English and the
> Celtic languages have deviated vastly from the historic pronunciations
> of the letters
People were pronouncing Celtic words long before any English words
existed, but who deviated first is anyone's guess. That notwithstanding,
it is enough to know that certain vowels and consonants are pronounced
differently in different languages, to have the courtesy to respect that
fact and that it is not unreasonable to celebrate that diversity by
attempting proper pronunciation wherever possible.
--
Regards,
Gareth Williams
Peter T. Daniels
> > Words are borrowed by speakers, not by readers.
>
> Not if you see the word "garage" swinging over a 1902 forecourt as you
> toddle past in your vintage Mercedes you don't. Or are you such a rare
> individual that you refuse to attempt to pronounce a word until someone
> actually speaks it to you?
You _vastly_ overestimate the effect of practical literacy -- whether a
century ago or today. The pronunciation of words in English is not set
by the handful of people who encounter words visually before they
encounter them orally. Who do you suppose ordered the signpainter to
paint a "Garage" sign in the first place?
> >> So, as "garridge", it passed into the common way of speaking in some parts
> >> of the world. Furthermore, it passed into the English language *itself*
> >> and so it is understandable that it be given a "local" pronunciation. This
> >> is not the case with Bach, Terfel, I Musici (once heard pronounced risibly
> >> as "Eye Music Eye")
> >
> > The last can legitimately be "Ee moozichee."
>
> It *is* "Ee moozichee", but only to people who understand how to pronounce
> Italian (or Latin) words properly. "Eye Music Eye" is a pronunciation
> that was either born out of ignorance, or out of a blase "never mind
> Johnny Foreigner, this is how we bloody well speak here" attitude.
The latter is the attitude that seems to have prevailed in Britain.
> > As for the Welsh singer, it's unfortunate that both English and the
> > Celtic languages have deviated vastly from the historic pronunciations
> > of the letters
>
> People were pronouncing Celtic words long before any English words
> existed, but who deviated first is anyone's guess. That notwithstanding,
> it is enough to know that certain vowels and consonants are pronounced
> differently in different languages, to have the courtesy to respect that
> fact and that it is not unreasonable to celebrate that diversity by
> attempting proper pronunciation wherever possible.
It's not "anyone's guess." The histories of literacy in Celtic and
English are very well known. So are the phonological histories of the
languages.