The plagiarism of John Williams
Jacek Generowicz
the Adagietto from Mahler's fifth symphony. After a few bars the tune changes,
and no more similarity to Mahler is perceivable. A while later one can hear
Ravel's Tzigane, under the title Auschwitz-Birkenau. These aren't perfect
reproductions, but the similarity is striking, and it did make me think how
often music by John Williams seemed remarkably familiar on first hearing. From
the limited sample of his music that I have heard, I guess that Mahler and
Grieg form some of his main sources of inspiration.
Perhaps we can make a collection along the lines of 'Classical Music in the
Advertisements' and 'Music the composers hated' entitled 'Music Plagiarised by
John Williams'.
I do find the main theme of Schindler's List rather effective. Can anyone
identify it, or is all credit due to Mr. Williams ?
Jacek
PS After all, plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.
Gary L. Daum
(material deleted)
: Perhaps we can make a collection along the lines of 'Classical Music in the
: Advertisements' and 'Music the composers hated' entitled 'Music Plagiarised by
: John Williams'.
Your collection would be significantly shorter and much easier to catalog
if you base it on his scores that are completely ORIGINAL.
: PS After all, plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.
Not everyone believes that these days, especially when a lot of money is
made off of someone else's creativity. I'm still fuming at the
Shostakovich that was ripped off in "Clear and Present Danger" and the
Debussy that provided some of the most poignant moments in "The Doctor".
Both uncredited, of course.
Gary Daum
gld...@umd5umd.edu
SIDDHARTHA HARI SHILEDAR BAXI
>Perhaps we can make a collection along the lines of 'Classical Music in the
>Advertisements' and 'Music the composers hated' entitled 'Music Plagiarised by
>John Williams'.
The explosive ending of Holst's Mars is pretty much stuck into the
main title theme to Star Wars (A New Hope) including the chaotic
string buildup... Unlike Holst's, though, the music continues for a bit
after the explosion and also Williams is not in 5/4 time...
Alot of Holst is discernable in Star Wars...
That said, Mr. Williams is still composing some of my favorite
music, film or otherwise... even if it is often highly derivative.
Scotty
Gary L. Daum
that the scores to "The Doctor" and "A Clear and Present Danger" were
composed by (heh, heh) John Williams. They are not. I was griping about
the general rampant plagarism that Hollywood takes for granted.
James Horner composed the score to "A Clear and Present Danger" which one
could say was heavily ghosted by Shostakovich in sections. I'm not sure
who wrote the score for "The Doctor", but its most successful moments came
from the pen of Claude Debussy.
Take that, you thieving barbarians.
Gary Daum
gld...@umd5.umd.edu
Bruce Recant
says:
[snip]
>This sounds like a great start for a new thread - Movie Music Rip-offs
>
>My favorite is the opening of Indochine with the music right out of
>the opening of Elgar's Scenes from the Saga of King Olaf. Boy was I
>p_ssed! Spoiled the movie for me for at least 10 minutes
>every time the music came in.
>
And what in the world is the Tchaikovsky violin concerto doing in "The
Right Stuff" ?
--
Bruce Recant bre...@worldbank.org
The World Bank
Washington, DC
Charles Fowler
Death and Transfiguration for the love theme from the first Superman film
has been mentioned. (Cross your fingers for C. Reeves while weąre at it,
yes?)
But may I pose a question raised by the likes of Handel is it plagarism
or paying hommage? Is it theft or flattery? Handel made thorough use of
his own stuff, over and over again, right left and centre. And he and his
pal Telemann made some exchanges I just heard a comparison on the radio
of the opening of the arrival of the Queen of Sheba, which is clearly
borrowed in principle and practise from a work ten years earlier by
Telemann.
So, when is it bad, should we pick on J.Williams and not Handel, or are
they all a bunch of pilferers? For the record, Iąve no answers as yet.
--
Charles Fowler
cfo...@hookup.net
Jeff Eldridge
>I've joined the string late, so flame me if J.W.零 rip-off of Strauss零
>Death and Transfiguration for the love theme from the first Superman film
>has been mentioned.
Transfiguration: (G) C D E e d
Superman love theme: C E G e d
Not the same.
(However, composer Jerry Goldsmith does use Strauss'
"Transfiguration" theme note for note in FOREVER YOUNG, although I
think this is supposed to be an in-joke.)
Jeff Eldridge
>
>And John Williams does it, too. I seem to remember seeing him on
>television, demonstrating how he derived the main theme for Star Wars
>by basically inverting and transposing a song he had written many years
>earlier: Born Free!
You remember incorrectly; John Barry wrote "Born Free", not Williams.
And even if you can get from one to the other by transposing, inverting,
reading backwards, whatever, the same could be done for pretty much any
two themes you care to provide.
Consider the famous Leonard Bernstein "Young People's Concert" in
which he demonstrated how the four notes G C E D ("How Dry I Am")
can be found in numerous themes by Mendelssohn, Brahms, Prokofiev,
R. Strauss (Death and Transfiguration), etc. etc.
In fact, the famous theme from CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND
(d e c C G) is also a permutation of those four notes, so I guess
John Williams stole that, too! ;-o
Cassandra Kenfield
What an odd idea....imitation is flattery (sometimes)...plagiarism is a
violation of both civil and moral law...and it is pretty cheap, to boot. Both
John Williams and Andrew Lloyd-Webber are guilty as hell when it comes to this (
did anyone remember the song in "Aspects of Love" that was lifted, note for
note, from "Candide"?)
In a time when marketing means more than artistic value, - and people have no
education in the arts, folks like Williams and Lloyd Webber flourish,
John Wholahan
writes:
>
>Charles Fowler (cfo...@hookup.net) wrote:
>(material deleted)
>
>: But may I pose a question raised by the likes of Handel is it
plagarism
>: or paying hommage? Is it theft or flattery? Handel made thorough use
of
>: his own stuff, over and over again, right left and centre.
>
>I don't think anyone begrudges one recycling some of his own material.
I
>do it every time I think I can get away with it.
And John Williams does it, too. I seem to remember seeing him on
television, demonstrating how he derived the main theme for Star Wars
by basically inverting and transposing a song he had written many years
earlier: Born Free!
John Wholahan (whol...@ix.netcom.com)
Ellen B. Edgerton
comes up with a different piece of music that the composer allegedly
stole from. The "expert opinions" almost never match up.
Pretty embarrassing, huh.
Basically, it all depends on what the "experts" have been listening to
in their own record collections. (Of course, you automatically assume
that the plagiarizing composer has been listening to everything you've
been listening to...)
Then there's the curious case of Franz Waxman's A PLACE IN THE SUN (I
think that's the one) and one of Shostakovich's later symphonies...
obviously, someone stole SOMETHING, since there are some striking
similarities (and if something is similar that's automatically proof
of plagiarism). Did they have some sort of psychic bond connection
going, or did Shosty just sneak out of Russia and go see the movie?
Cedric
In the 50's, before most artists copyrighted their music, it was almost common
practice to turn Rachmaninoff (I think that's who it was) into cheeezy 50's
pop music.
Oh but that has nothing to do w/ JW.
Ta
Michael Brooke
: Music in this century has become a gigantic business and the people who
: create it and perform it merit legal protection for their intellectual
: property.
: Somehow in this mess, you wind up with a lot of people expected to produce
: a lot of powerful, emotional, moving music but don't seem to be
: overflowing with as much original talent as a few of the past masters (and
: who, to be fair, are working with more of a deadline).
: If you're going to steal, why not steal from the best. Steal from the
: sources that are free. Steal from those who won't beat you silly with a
: lawsuit.
: There were/are lots of people working in Hollywood who are original and I
: respect them. In today's environment, however, plagerism/borrowing has
: different ramifications. It stinks.
I think a lot of the problem is to do with the fact that most film
score composers are expected to come up with the goods in a
ridiculously fast period of time (typically three weeks from first
viewing to final orchestration), so it's not too surprising that they
'borrow' a fair chunk of pre-existing music.
Situations like the one Bernard Herrmann had on 'Citizen Kane', when
he was hired before the film started shooting and allowed to work on
the score in tandem with the filming (music plays a crucial role in
that film) are so rare most composers would find it inconceivable.
Michael
Charles Fowler
(Cedric) wrote:
> In the 50's, before most artists copyrighted their music, it was almost
common
> practice to turn Rachmaninoff (I think that's who it was) into cheeezy 50's
> pop music.
Eric Carmen did the same in the Ś70s.
--
Charles Fowler
cfo...@hookup.net
Jeff Eldridge
>>
>>IMHO, he actually (stole, borrowed, was inspired - whatever) his Close
>Encounters music from parts of Berlioz' Symphony Fantastique. But
>that's okay with me, I enjoyed it just the same. After all, there are
>probably hundreds of movies which contain classical music which was not
>credited to the original composer.
The motif in CLOSE ENCOUNTERS which I think you're referring to is a
variant on the Dies Irae, which predates Berlioz by centuries. Berlioz
himself borrowed/stole/was inspired by the Dies Irae. Rachmaninoff
included it in nearly every orchestral work he wrote!
David C Powell
Eldridge) writes:
>In fact, the famous theme from CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND
>(d e c C G) is also a permutation of those four notes, so I guess
>John Williams stole that, too! ;-o
>
>
Scott Smith
>>I don't think anyone begrudges one recycling some of his own material.
>>I do it every time I think I can get away with it.
>
>And John Williams does it, too. I seem to remember seeing him on
>television, demonstrating how he derived the main theme for Star Wars
>by basically inverting and transposing a song he had written many years
>earlier: Born Free!
>
>John Wholahan (whol...@ix.netcom.com)
I could be wrong, but I thought that John Barry did the music for
Born Free. (?)
--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Scott Eric Smith
c/o andy....@ncl.ac.uk
temporary home page:
http://borg.ncl.ac.uk/miscellaneous/scott/scott.html
Note this before my notes:
There's not a note of mine that's worth the noting.
William Shakespeare - Much Ado About Nothing - Act II, iii
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Mike Quigley
>Jacek Generowicz <jmrg> writes:
>>Listening to the soundtrack of Shindler's List I was somewhat surprised to hear
>>the Adagietto from Mahler's fifth symphony.
>Actually, the main fiddle tune starts as a repeat of a theme from Mahler's
>8th.
Oh yeah, sure...
I have listened to the supposed "plagiarism" of the Fifth Symphony
mentioned above. It consists of >>>four<<< notes. And I guess the fact
that at points during the particular piece, strings and harp are
featured?
Maybe you people should devote some time to pointing out where Mahler
plagiarized himself?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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David Brooks
>Listening to the soundtrack of Shindler's List I was somewhat surprised to hear
>the Adagietto from Mahler's fifth symphony.
Actually, the main fiddle tune starts as a repeat of a theme from Mahler's
8th.
--
David Brooks, Manager, Quality Engineering dbr...@x.org
X Consortium <URL:http://www.x.org/people/dbrooks/>
Commit planned giving and daily acts of compassion.
David Brooks
>In article <41adpa$j...@bnet.fuw.edu.pl>, Jacek Generowicz <jmrg> writes:
>The explosive ending of Holst's Mars is pretty much stuck into the
>main title theme to Star Wars (A New Hope) including the chaotic
>string buildup... Unlike Holst's, though, the music continues for a bit
>after the explosion and also Williams is not in 5/4 time...
>
>Alot of Holst is discernable in Star Wars...
I have never heard much derived from Holst in Williams's music. OTOH, Star
Wars lives in the same sonic landscape as much of Walton, especially the
marches and concert overtures. I guess all 20th century English composers
sound the same to American ears :-)
Listen to the Orb and Sceptre march and you'll hear what I mean.
Paul Penna
> I have never heard much derived from Holst in Williams's music. OTOH, Star
> Wars lives in the same sonic landscape as much of Walton, especially the
> marches and concert overtures. I guess all 20th century English composers
> sound the same to American ears :-)
>
> Listen to the Orb and Sceptre march and you'll hear what I mean.
Apparently (I haven't seen it myself, but it was reported on
rec.music.movies) Williams acknowledged in a liner note that he based the
Throne Room music at the end of "Star Wars" on Orb & Scepter. If you sync
up a CD of it with that scene, you'll see what he/I mean.
Jeff Eldridge
>
>Apparently (I haven't seen it myself, but it was reported on
>rec.music.movies) Williams acknowledged in a liner note that he based the
>Throne Room music at the end of "Star Wars" on Orb & Scepter. If you sync
>up a CD of it with that scene, you'll see what he/I mean.
That may have been what was reported in r.m.m., but it is not very accurate.
In the Star Wars liner notes, Williams does say that the Throne Room march
was written with a "Land of Hope and Glory" feel to it, referring to
Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1. Of course, Elgar wrote 4
more such marches, each similar in pattern to the first, then Walton
wrote his two marches in the same vein. (Not to mention Walton's own
film music, like that to Richard III, which also has very much the same
feel to it.)
FIRST FIG
the Pachelbel Kanon. (Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce. Special orders
don't upset us.)
Not by Williams, of course.
Not yet.
JOhara9592
ripoff off Richiard Strauss' Death and Transfiguration. He makes millions
off of those who don't know better.
Believe it or not, he's a worse conductor.
Mike Quigley
>Not only Schindler's List. Take a listen to his Superman score! A direct
>ripoff off Richiard Strauss' Death and Transfiguration. He makes millions
>off of those who don't know better.
You obviously don't know better. The following was posted (not by me,
incidentally) in response to someone else's similar comments on this
score:
I've heard this so many times, and I still can't figure out how even
people with musical training make this claim. They are NOT the same.
They are different. The Superman theme uses the first five notes:
C-E-G-E(octave up)-D. Strauss uses C-D-E-E(octave up)-D. Some
similarity, but in no way is it "exactly the same"!
Mike Quigley
>Believe it or not, he's a worse conductor.
What do you base this comment on? Are you a musician who has played
under his direction?
Richard L Kaye
Me." and THAT is plagiarism (fromthe BBC).
RLK
Richard L Kaye
lawsuit for plagiarism. Puccini's heirs won.
RLK
Richard L Kaye
high school band marched onto a football field playing an only slightly
arranged version of part of Beethoven's Violin Concerto!
RLK
Guenther Koegebehn
>>Believe it or not, he's [John Williams] a worse conductor.<<
What do else do you expect from one of the two main conductors of
the world's most awfully symphony orchestra "The Boston Pops".
(For those who don't know the other one is Erich Kunzel.)
Guenther Koegebehn
10066...@compuserve.com
Robert A. Herrig
writes:
>
"And Here You Are" (an old pop tune) has definite
>similarities to theopening phrase of Dvorak's "Songs My Mother
>Taught Me"; as has often been pointed out, Simon's "American Tune"
>adapts from the Bach chorale tune ("O Haupt," etc.), as Bach adapted
>his tune from Hans Hassler; an Everly took the Cloudburst harmonic
>from "Grand Canyon" for "Cathy's Clown"; "Past, Present, Future"
>by the Shagri-la's is based on Louie's Moonlight Sonata; "Where"
>adapted T.'s Pathetique symphony; "Danny Boy" adapted the Londonderry
>Air; Schertzinger's "One Night of Love" used the opening phrase of
>the great love duet from Madama Butterfly (where were Pooch's heir's
>then?); "Dearly Beloved" (Jerome Kern) also borrowed another phrase
>from MB, and, in fact, most of the melody from a subsequent sequence
>from that duet; "Night" is based on the love duet from *Samson and
>Delilah; It's Now or Never and Surrender (Presley, singer) used
>2 famous Neapolitan melodies; "Tonight We Love" used T's first piano
>concerto, while "Full Moon and Empty Arms" used R's 2d piano concerto.
>The list goes on; anybody care to add to it?
>
The list provided by you and others in this thread have contained
borrowings that are:
1) acknowledged
2) unacknowledged
3) unconscious
The term "plagiarism" certainly encompasses (2) and maybe (3), but not
(1)--unless, of course, legal permission for extensive quotation is
required. Anyway, since you asked, here's another. Years ago someone
told me that the opening line of Porter's "Night and Day" is a
conscious quote of Schumann's "Die Lotosblume." They are certainly
very similar. I've never read a musical biography of Porter, so I
don't know if he was a fan of Schumann. If so, he probably did it as a
sort of tribute. Does anyone else have information on this?
David Brooks
Ahhh...venerable BBC radio comedy programmes. Is there *no* chance that
WCRB Saturday Night will return, Richard?
lanza
: Does no one remember AVALON and E Lucevan le Stelle? Famous
: RLK
Exactly, but that judge must have been Italian. There's no reasonable
similarity to avoid the estate I think 20,000 pounds, which was an
incredible sum in those days! As a correspondent pointed out to me
several months ago, although the notes are similar, two of the notes
go in different directions (up/down) than in the original. If
those two tunes are similar, then half the world would be suing the
other half. "And Here You Are" (an old pop tune) has definite
similarities to theopening phrase of Dvorak's "Songs My Mother
Taught Me"; as has often been pointed out, Simon's "American Tune"
adapts from the Bach chorale tune ("O Haupt," etc.), as Bach adapted
his tune from Hans Hassler; an Everly took the Cloudburst harmonic
from "Grand Canyon" for "Cathy's Clown"; "Past, Present, Future"
by the Shagri-la's is based on Louie's Moonlight Sonata; "Where"
adapted T.'s Pathetique symphony; "Danny Boy" adapted the Londonderry
Air; Schertzinger's "One Night of Love" used the opening phrase of
the great love duet from Madama Butterfly (where were Pooch's heir's
then?); "Dearly Beloved" (Jerome Kern) also borrowed another phrase
from MB, and, in fact, most of the melody from a subsequent sequence
from that duet; "Night" is based on the love duet from *Samson and
Delilah; It's Now or Never and Surrender (Presley, singer) used
2 famous Neapolitan melodies; "Tonight We Love" used T's first piano
concerto, while "Full Moon and Empty Arms" used R's 2d piano concerto.
The list goes on; anybody care to add to it?
--
***************************************************************
"How about it--you creeps, you lunatics, mental defectives!"
--Jack Nicholson, *One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest*
***************************************************************
lanza
: conscious quote of Schumann's "Die Lotosblume." They are certainly
: very similar. I've never read a musical biography of Porter, so I
: don't know if he was a fan of Schumann. If so, he probably did it as a
: sort of tribute. Does anyone else have information on this?
I find this very interesting. Where can I find the Schumann lied?
I assume it's a lied.
Tuomas S Kareinen
lanza
: Has anyone noticed the similarity between Mahler's 8th and Schindler's List?
Mahler's Eighth is longer.
eladb...@gmail.com
> and no more similarity to Mahler is perceivable. A while later one can hear
> Ravel's Tzigane, under the title Auschwitz-Birkenau. These aren't perfect
> reproductions, but the similarity is striking, and it did make me think how
> often music by John Williams seemed remarkably familiar on first hearing. From
> the limited sample of his music that I have heard, I guess that Mahler and
> Grieg form some of his main sources of inspiration.
>
> Perhaps we can make a collection along the lines of 'Classical Music in the
> Advertisements' and 'Music the composers hated' entitled 'Music Plagiarised by
> John Williams'.
>
> I do find the main theme of Schindler's List rather effective. Can anyone
> identify it, or is all credit due to Mr. Williams ?
>
> Jacek
>
> PS After all, plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.
A new plagiarism checker tool for webmasters is www.copyleaks.com. you should try it.