Stainer violin 1729
theho...@hotmail.com
Oenipontum 1729, made in Germany. Can anyone give me an approximation of its
value?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
HOWARD HELLER
Th> @FROM :theho...@hotmail.com
Th> N @UMSGID :<6u7e7v$qqu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Th> N @UNEWSGR:01rec.music.classical
Th> I have a German violin bearing the label: Jacobus Stainer in Absam,
Th> prope Oenipontum 1729, made in Germany. Can anyone give me an
Th> approximation of its value?
I'm always skeptical about these claims (see the message from the fellow
who requested info about his Stradavarius) and I am also not a string
player. However, I find this one very interesting...so interesting that
I called a friend of mine here in NY City who plays the baroque violin
professionally and asked her about this.
Jacobus Stainer is the "Stradavarius" of the baroque violin, and those
fans of Alice Harnoncourt will be quick to tell you she plays one herself.
What's also interesting is, according to a refernce book on the violin
published by Grove, Jacobus Stainer's dates are 1617-1683...which would
make it somewhat difficult for him to produce an instrument dated 1729.
Could the person asking about the Stainer be the same person inquiring
about the Strad ?
Regards,
Howard Heller
***************************************************
* Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations *
***************************************************
.. There's not enough sax and violins on television.
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
HOWARD HELLER wrote:
> -=> Quoting Thehoopman to All <=-
>
> Th> @FROM :theho...@hotmail.com
> Th> N @UMSGID :<6u7e7v$qqu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> Th> N @UNEWSGR:01rec.music.classical
>
> Th> I have a German violin bearing the label: Jacobus Stainer in Absam,
> Th> prope Oenipontum 1729, made in Germany. Can anyone give me an
> Th> approximation of its value?
>
> I'm always skeptical about these claims (see the message from the fellow
> who requested info about his Stradavarius) and I am also not a string
> player. However, I find this one very interesting...so interesting that
> I called a friend of mine here in NY City who plays the baroque violin
> professionally and asked her about this.
>
> Jacobus Stainer is the "Stradavarius" of the baroque violin, and those
> fans of Alice Harnoncourt will be quick to tell you she plays one herself.
>
> What's also interesting is, according to a refernce book on the violin
> published by Grove, Jacobus Stainer's dates are 1617-1683...which would
> make it somewhat difficult for him to produce an instrument dated 1729.
>
> Could the person asking about the Stainer be the same person inquiring
> about the Strad ?
>
> Regards,
> Howard Heller
From a string player: trust me; Stainers are just as popular to copy as
Strads, and there are tens of thousands floating out there, all bearing bogus
labels just like the similar numbers of Strad copies (and Amatis, and
Magginis, and Guarneris, and Vuillaumes, and the list goes on and on.)
Many people consider Stainers to be superior to Stradivaris, and they have a
strong following among violinists. Definitely, in Mozart's day, a Stainer was
considered the ne plus ultra of violins, and Strads came in second. The
"Stainer" pattern involves somewhat more delicate proportions than the
Italians (i.e. a less spread-out bottom bout) and -- most significantly -- a
much higher and steeper arching of the front and back. The flatter arching of
the Stradivaris and the French makers creates a louder sound (better for
competing with other instruments in the Romantic repertoire).
The important question is: does it seem like a quality instrument? Is the
stain transparent and even instead of gloppy, thick and paint-like? Does the
wood have an even, smooth grain on front and a "curl" or "flame" (i.e. stripes
in the grain that seem to irridesce) on the back and sides? (I personally pay
no attention whatsoever to violins without a flame to the back. It indicates
cheap wood.) Is the bass bar inside separately made, or was it machined out
of the same piece of wood as the top? Is there attention to detail (like the
sroll)? Does it appear to be finely hand-chiseled? If the answer to all
these questions is "yes", perhaps you should take it to a local dealer for a
look-see. Also, you can get a general idea of market conditions by going to
www.ebay.com and entering "violin" into their search engine. (This is where
I'm spending most of my time these days, instead of here). You'll see Stainer
copies consistently going for $300-$750 depending on the condition.
--
Best regards,
Con
--
To reply, please remove anti-spam asterisk from return address
**************************************************************
"Mozart is too easy for beginners and too difficult for artists"
-- Artur Schnabel
**************************************************************
HOWARD HELLER
CM> @FROM :conm...@earthlink.net (Reply-To:
CM> conmarcou*@earthlink.net)N @UMSGID :<36096475...@earthlink.net>
CM> N @UNEWSGR:01rec.music.classical
CM> N HOWARD HELLER wrote:
Th> I have a German violin bearing the label: Jacobus Stainer in Absam,
Th> prope Oenipontum 1729, made in Germany.
HH> ...I am also not a string player. However, I find this one very
HH> interesting...so interesting that I called a friend of mine here
HH> in NY City who plays the baroque violin professionally and asked
HH> her about this.
HH> ...according to a refernce book on the violin
HH> published by Grove, Jacobus Stainer's dates are 1617-1683...which would
HH> make it somewhat difficult for him to produce an instrument dated 1729.
CM> From a string player: trust me; Stainers are just as popular to copy
CM> as Strads, and there are tens of thousands floating out there...
CM> Many people consider Stainers to be superior to Stradivaris, and they
CM> have a strong following among violinists. Definitely, in Mozart's day,
CM> a Stainer was considered the ne plus ultra of violins, and Strads came
CM> in second...
CM> The important question is: does it seem like a quality instrument?
[much snipping for bervity and clarity}
Thanks very much for this very informative and enlightening background.
My friend also said the same thing: Even though it might be a copy, it
could still be an excellent instrument. As I mentioned, Alice Harnoncourt
plays a Stainer and I think she has the most wonderful and expressive
sound of any violinist I've ever heard. Hopefully someday I will have
the opportunity to hear one of these instruments up close and personal.
Again, thanks for taking the time to clarify this point.
Regards,
Howard Heller
***************************************************
* Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations *
***************************************************
.. My back feels okay, but I think I've thrown my brain out.
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
Hanns KREHBIEL
>
> HOWARD HELLER wrote:
>
> > -=> Quoting Thehoopman to All <=-
> >
> > Th> @FROM :theho...@hotmail.com
> > Th> N @UMSGID :<6u7e7v$qqu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> > Th> N @UNEWSGR:01rec.music.classical
> >
> > Th> approximation of its value?
If the label is quoted exactly it makes me giggle, with its mix of Latin and English.
prope Oenipontum probably means near Innsbruck, which is correct (Absam IS near Innsbruck),
but the entire address specification (A near B) seems to me rather modern. Stainer
would probably have written J. St. Absamensis or so.
But the biggest howler is "made in Germany". This term couldn't have been used before
the British "Foreign Trade Act", sometime in the second half of the 19th century. And
where was "Germany" in Stainer's days or in 1729? (Today Absam is in Austria.)
krehbiel
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
Hanns KREHBIEL wrote:
CONSTANTIN MARCOU wrote:
>
> HOWARD HELLER wrote:
>
> > -=> Quoting Thehoopman to All <=-
> >
> > Th> @FROM :theho...@hotmail.com
> > Th> N @UMSGID :<6u7e7v$qqu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> > Th> N @UNEWSGR:01rec.music.classical
> >
> > Th> I have a German violin bearing the label: Jacobus Stainer in Absam,
> > Th> prope Oenipontum 1729, made in Germany. Can anyone give me an
> > Th> approximation of its value?If the label is quoted exactly it makes me giggle, with its mix of Latin and English.
prope Oenipontum probably means near Innsbruck, which is correct (Absam IS near Innsbruck),
but the entire address specification (A near B) seems to me rather modern. Stainer
would probably have written J. St. Absamensis or so.
No. Jacob Stainer DID, in fact, sign his instruments "in Absam prope Oenipontum" -- and modern copyists are careful to preserve that language.
But the biggest howler is "made in Germany". This term couldn't have been used before
the British "Foreign Trade Act", sometime in the second half of the 19th century.
Of course. This confirms that it it is a copy. Most likely made in Mittenwald (the German violin "factory" town in Bavaria).
And
where was "Germany" in Stainer's days or in 1729? (Today Absam is in Austria.)
Stainer considered himself, and all violin historians consider him, a Tyrolean maker. I think, even in Stainer's day, the Tyrol has always been considered Austria, n'est-ce pas?
But the point here is that so many music lovers (including, obviously, members of this group) are unfamiliar with the conventions of violin labeling. Intellectual property and patent laws did not exist at the time of the great makers, and there has never been a law against forging a violin maker's label. Accordingly, since the mid-1700s, everybody and his mother has shamelessly and brazenly inserted "famous-name" labels into their own creations. Over time, it has become accepted that the label is meaningless except fo two things: 1) as an indication of whose successful original design the violin is patterned after (i.e. dimensions, etc.); and, 2) whatever additional information the label may offer (e.g. I own a violin whose label reads "Copia di Antonius Stradivarius Cremonensis" -- which is the standard garbage -- "by Angelo Ferrari in Germany"-- which is the real information.)
Hanns KREHBIEL
>
> No. Jacob Stainer DID, in fact, sign his instruments "in Absam prope Oenipontum" -- and modern
> copyists are careful to preserve that language.
>
> > But the biggest howler is "made in Germany". This term couldn't have been used before
> > the British "Foreign Trade Act", sometime in the second half of the 19th century.
>
> Of course. This confirms that it it is a copy. Most likely made in Mittenwald (the German
> violin "factory" town in Bavaria).
I am not a violin expert, but Mittenwald doesn't have such a bad reputation. (I know a little
about that town; I have been there.) It was after all the home of Matthias Klotz, to whom
they erected a monument, and it has a school for violin making (Geigenbauschule).
When it comes to industrialized instrument making I rather think of Saxonia. Markneukirchen
comes to my mind.
> > And
> > where was "Germany" in Stainer's days or in 1729? (Today Absam is in Austria.)
>
> Stainer considered himself, and all violin historians consider him, a Tyrolean maker. I
> think, even in Stainer's day, the Tyrol has always been considered Austria, n'est-ce pas?
At that time Austria (NOT a synonym for the Habsburg possessions) was part of the Holy Roman
Empire of German Nation, and its German-speaking inhabitants were seen as a subset of the
Germans. Nobody thought otherwise. (BTW: Mozart described himself as a German in so many letters.)
> But the point here is that so many music lovers (including, obviously, members of this group)
> are unfamiliar with the conventions of violin labeling. Intellectual property and patent laws
> did not exist at the time of the great makers, and there has never been a law against forging a
> violin maker's label. Accordingly, since the mid-1700s, everybody and his mother has
> shamelessly and brazenly inserted "famous-name" labels into their own creations. Over time, it
> has become accepted that the label is meaningless except fo two things: 1) as an indication of
> whose successful original design the violin is patterned after (i.e. dimensions, etc.); and, 2)
> whatever additional information the label may offer (e.g. I own a violin whose label reads
> "Copia di Antonius Stradivarius Cremonensis" --
True, but we must distinguish between a copy, which can be an honest enterprise when done diligently,
and a fake. In the case of the label with which this thread started, if it really contains all
this nonsense on a single sheet of paper: I cannot see that anyone in Germany or Austria, who
could tell a violin from a flute, and who wanted to cheat people with a chance of success,
could have composed it. Rather I thing someone unconnected with the original maker, overseas
may be, glued the label into a cheap violin at hand.
krehbiel
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
Hanns KREHBIEL wrote:
> I am not a violin expert, but Mittenwald doesn't have such a bad reputation. (I know a little
> about that town; I have been there.) It was after all the home of Matthias Klotz, to whom
> they erected a monument, and it has a school for violin making (Geigenbauschule).
>
> When it comes to industrialized instrument making I rather think of Saxonia. Markneukirchen
> comes to my mind.
This merely reflects changing standards in instrument making. When the ateliers of Mittenwald (and
Mirecourt) first evolved, they were considered abominations of mass-production by comparison to the older
methods they replaced. Now, they are considered producers of high quality instruments.
> At that time Austria (NOT a synonym for the Habsburg possessions) was part of the Holy Roman
> Empire of German Nation, and its German-speaking inhabitants were seen as a subset of the
> Germans. Nobody thought otherwise. (BTW: Mozart described himself as a German in so many letters.)
Ther is a fascinating story about (I believe) one of Mozart's contredanses. Apparantly, it is marked
'Teitsche" in the autograph score. For years, no one could understand what this meant, until it finally
dawned on everyon that "Teitsche" was a dialect missplling/mispronunciation of "Deutsche".
> > But the point here is that so many music lovers (including, obviously, members of this group)
> > are unfamiliar with the conventions of violin labeling. Intellectual property and patent laws
> > did not exist at the time of the great makers, and there has never been a law against forging a
> > violin maker's label. Accordingly, since the mid-1700s, everybody and his mother has
> > shamelessly and brazenly inserted "famous-name" labels into their own creations. Over time, it
> > has become accepted that the label is meaningless except fo two things: 1) as an indication of
> > whose successful original design the violin is patterned after (i.e. dimensions, etc.); and, 2)
> > whatever additional information the label may offer (e.g. I own a violin whose label reads
> > "Copia di Antonius Stradivarius Cremonensis" --
>
> True, but we must distinguish between a copy, which can be an honest enterprise when done diligently,
> and a fake. In the case of the label with which this thread started, if it really contains all
> this nonsense on a single sheet of paper: I cannot see that anyone in Germany or Austria, who
> could tell a violin from a flute, and who wanted to cheat people with a chance of success,
> could have composed it. Rather I thing someone unconnected with the original maker, overseas
> may be, glued the label into a cheap violin at hand.
That is the whole point of what I am trying to say here: 150 years ago, in the middle of the 19th
century, the mentality of people was such that they did not view putting a Stradivarius label into a Hans
Schmidt violin as any kind of cheat; it was simply the way things were done. We modern people are the
ones who place such a premium on authenticity.
Hanns KREHBIEL
>
>
> Ther is a fascinating story about (I believe) one of Mozart's contredanses. Apparantly, it is marked
> 'Teitsche" in the autograph score. For years, no one could understand what this meant, until it finally
> dawned on everyon that "Teitsche" was a dialect missplling/mispronunciation of "Deutsche".
Until around 1800 "Teutsch" was a valid alternate spelling (e.g. used by Mozart) of "Deutsch",
reflecting the original "theodiscus". Nowadays Teutsch is used in a mocking way, signalizing
chauvinism etc. "Teitsch" is probably an Italian misspelling. This word, or with better spelling
Deutsche(r) was often used as short, e.g. by Schubert, for Deutsche T"anze (German dances).
AFAIK these were precursors of the Vienna waltz.
In the score of Don Giovanni, in the famous Menuet scene, when three bands play different rhythms,
one can read the stage direction (approx.): Don Giovanni balla con Zerlina la Teitsch.
>
> That is the whole point of what I am trying to say here: 150 years ago, in the middle of the 19th
> century, the mentality of people was such that they did not view putting a Stradivarius label into a Hans
> Schmidt violin as any kind of cheat; it was simply the way things were done. We modern people are the
> ones who place such a premium on authenticity.
>
Maybe my point was lost as well: I was not discussing or questioning the _morals_ of the guy who
composed the label in question, but his intelligence and level of knowledge.
krehbiel
Margaret Mikulska
> Ther is a fascinating story about (I believe) one of Mozart's contredanses. Apparantly, it is marked
> 'Teitsche" in the autograph score. For years, no one could understand what this meant, until it finally
> dawned on everyon that "Teitsche" was a dialect missplling/mispronunciation of "Deutsche".
Sorry, but it must be an apocriphal story. It is not possible that "for
years" nobody understood this. Even when spelled with "i", the meaning
of this word is obvious for any German speaker.
Second, a "teutsche" is in 3/4 meter, while a contredanse is in 2/4.
Third, Mozart wrote a large number of "teutsche Taenze".
Margaret
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
along.
Margaret Mikulska wrote:
--
Keith Edgerley
>
> CONSTANTIN MARCOU wrote:
>
> >
>
>
> > > And
> > > where was "Germany" in Stainer's days or in 1729? (Today Absam is in Austria.)
> >
> > Stainer considered himself, and all violin historians consider him, a Tyrolean maker. I
> > think, even in Stainer's day, the Tyrol has always been considered Austria, n'est-ce pas?
>
> Empire of German Nation, and its German-speaking inhabitants were seen as a subset of the
> Germans. Nobody thought otherwise. (BTW: Mozart described himself as a German in so many letters.)
>
>
> krehbiel
Even better: When the hero of von Eichendorff's Aus dem Leben eines
Taugenichts crosses the Gotthard Pass into the Swiss Canton of Uri,what
does he say he sees spread out before him: Deutschland. Or , as
Simplicius Simplicissimus says: Ein teutsches Land.
To return to the subject: I own and indeed learnt on a half-size violin
bearing the lable Andrea (I think) Amati Cremona fecit and a date after
1700. It has been suggested that half-size intruments were rarely fakes
and that it might well be a genuine from a lesser-known descendant.
However, the not-very-competent luthier who restrung it when my daughter
started lessons thought this idea was ridiculous.
A real unknown (? - probably one of those that vanished during WWII ?)
Stradivarius turned up here in Geneva a few years ago, brought in in a
filthy state by a Gypsy to Vidoudez, luthier to the conservatoire and
the OSR. So fairy stories do come true sometimes
--
Keith Edgerley
Head of Publications
Editor-in-Chief, Diffusion
EBU, Geneva,
PS Is desy the Germ electron synchrontron? Is it still going?
Margaret Mikulska
> Many people consider Stainers to be superior to Stradivaris, and they have a
> strong following among violinists. Definitely, in Mozart's day, a Stainer was
> considered the ne plus ultra of violins, and Strads came in second.
Actually, it was Stainer and Amati violins that were so highly regarded
in Mozart's times. Stradivari and Guarneri instruments were not yet
appreciated then.
-Margaret
car...@flyingcat.com
conmarcou*@earthlink.net wrote:
> [...] Also, you can get a general idea of market conditions by going to
> www.ebay.com and entering "violin" into their search engine. (This is where
> I'm spending most of my time these days, instead of here). You'll see Stainer
> copies consistently going for $300-$750 depending on the condition.
Or try entering "stainer" in the search engine, and select "search title and
description". You can do this in both the current auction search, and in the
completed auction search (found at the bottom of the search page).
Quite a few Stainer copies go by on Ebay, with many different finishes and
looks. What most seem to have in common is the name "Stainer" impressed into
the back near the neck, and a label with some Stainer text, sometimes with
Made in Germany on the label, or Germany impressed somewhere on the violin.
One went by last week that also had a Lyon & Healey logo impressed under the
Stainer impression.
Strad copies of many varieties are also abundant on ebay.com.
Carolyn Scheppner
car...@flyingcat.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
John Grabowski
>
> I bow to your superior knowledge.
What kind of bow? (Horsehair, etc?)
John :-)
--
<< THIS SPACE AVAILABLE! Call 1-800-555-1212 >>
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
John Grabowski wrote:
> CONSTANTIN MARCOU wrote:
> >
> > I bow to your superior knowledge.
>
> What kind of bow? (Horsehair, etc?)
>
> John :-)
>
Any kind but fiberglass! (I understand they make graphite composition
ones now...)