John Williams, Superman, & Tod und Verklarung
bean
special rights to use) his theme for 'Superman' from Richard Strauss' Tod
und Verklarung??? The main theme in Superman sounds _a lot_ like a major
theme in Tod...
Just wondering!!!
Bean
Sami Mitra
>Does anyone know if John Williams stole (or, for that matter, obtained
>special rights to use) his theme for 'Superman' from Richard Strauss' Tod
>und Verklarung???
Don't know about this particular case. But does anyone else get the feeling
that John Williams got his arguably most famous idea -- the shark motif in
JAWS -- from the opening bars of the last movement of Dvorak's 9th
symphony?
Sami Mitra
James M. Fitzwilliam
smi...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Sami Mitra) writes:
> Don't know about this particular case. But does anyone else get the
> feeling that John Williams got his arguably most famous idea -- the
> shark motif in JAWS -- from the opening bars of the last movement of
> Dvorak's 9th symphony?
Maybe so, but he certainly developed the theme differently than Dvorak.
(:
Sung to the tune of the "Superman" theme:
"I'm Soo-oo-perman! I -- like -- fifths!"
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John R. Dooley
>In article <n9243460.766123715@gonzo> n924...@gonzo.cc.wwu.edu (bean) writes:
>>Does anyone know if John Williams stole (or, for that matter, obtained
>>special rights to use) his theme for 'Superman' from Richard Strauss' Tod
>>und Verklarung???
>
I'll have to listen again. I thought it was borrowed from Elgar, actually.
John D.
Mike Quigley
writes:
> Does anyone know if John Williams stole (or, for that matter, obtained
> special rights to use) his theme for 'Superman' from Richard Strauss' Tod
> und Verklarung??? The main theme in Superman sounds _a lot_ like a major
> theme in Tod...
>
> Just wondering!!!
Why should he have to obtain permission? Surely the Strauss piece is in the
public domain!
bean
OK! OK! Excuse me! Don't flame me about THAT, for crying out loud! GAWD!
All I was wondering was if there were any connection between the two
pieces...I don't know _everything_ about the musical world like you do.
Mike Quigley
writes:
> Mr_Gi...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley) writes:
>
> >In article <n9243460.766123715@gonzo>, n924...@gonzo.cc.wwu.edu (bean)
> >writes:
>
> >> Does anyone know if John Williams stole (or, for that matter, obtained
> >> special rights to use) his theme for 'Superman' from Richard Strauss'
> Tod
> >> und Verklarung??? The main theme in Superman sounds _a lot_ like a
> major
> >> theme in Tod...
>
> >Why should he have to obtain permission? Surely the Strauss piece is in
> the
> >public domain!
>
> OK! OK! Excuse me! Don't flame me about THAT, for crying out loud!
> GAWD!
> All I was wondering was if there were any connection between the two
> pieces...I don't know _everything_ about the musical world like you do.
I really wonder why people have to make such a big deal about the
"connection" between film music and works this film music was supposedly
"stolen" from or (a term less used) "inspired by". Is it because film music
composers are just a bunch of dumbos, and "serious" composers like
Prokofieff, Walton, Shostakovich and so forth are really so much more
intelligent? (Shostakovich wrote quite a few film scores which were
>pretty< shitty too, in my opinion!)
Instead of all the usual hysteria which this oft-repeated thread generates,
it would be interesting to know if any film music composer has ever
>admitted< stealing or borrowing music from one of those "smart guys".
Unless you are a mind reader, any other speculation is nothing more or less
than a musical parlour game (which >can< be interesting, mind you...)
Perhaps we could have some discussion (as was suggested here in an earlier
message) about how them smart composers like Mozart, Beethoven and so forth
"borrowed" from other smart people. Or maybe even how them stupid,
musically inferior film music composers have "borrowed" from each other?
Deryk Barker
: Mr_Gi...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley) writes:
Actually, as Strauus did not die until 1949 I suspect his music is
*not* yet public domain.
--
Deryk.
=================================================================
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Without music, life |
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada | would be a mistake |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | |
|phone: +1 604 370 4452 | (Friedrich Nietzsche).|
=================================================================
----JJK----
"Mathis der Maler"?
Just wondering,
Jonathon Kirk
*
uh df
::xk
Mike Quigley
(----JJK----) writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <kirk.76...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
> References: <Co4sB...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
> Posted: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 22:43:38 GMT
>
> Org. : University of Colorado, Boulder
Try listening to the very end of Richard Strauss's MacBeth if you want to
hear a similarity to Batman!
pinky and the brain
beginning of time, it is only when the compser begins
stealing themes and motives does a problem occur...Look at
Chopin for example, many of his piano works are based on the
ideas and styles of John Field's, of course Chopin's style
eventually becomes more complex...
--
ell...@delphi.com
>I really wonder why people have to make such a big deal about the
>"connection" between film music and works this film music was supposedly
>"stolen" from or (a term less used) "inspired by". Is it because film music
>composers are just a bunch of dumbos, and "serious" composers like
>Prokofieff, Walton, Shostakovich and so forth are really so much more
>intelligent? (Shostakovich wrote quite a few film scores which were
>>pretty< shitty too, in my opinion!)
curiosity ... I'm genuinely interested)
And those others didn't all write 100% "great, towering" scores either.
Walton's AS YOU LIKE IT -- now, THERE's a real piece of shit if you ask me.
(Of course, the movie itself wasn't any masterpiece either...)
John
Supposedly the boom-boom-boom-boom of the Jaws theme was originally supposed
to be suggestive of a nervous heartbeat--i.e., the movie-goer's (here comes
the shark! Here comes the shark!) and that originally it was to be played
softly on the timpani, not with the strings as now.
John
Jack Godwin
My thoughts are that the pulsing part of the "Jaws" theme originated
from the third movement of Beethoven's 7th symphony in the 2nd and 4th
french horn parts. This may have been the earliest use of this
statement...but I think it probably wasn't, since history tends to
repeat itself.
As Mike Quigley stated earlier in this thread, "smart composers like
Mozart, Beethoven and so forth 'borrowed' from other smart people."
There is no reason to condemn resourcefulness. In fact, we are all
similarly resourceful in one way or another. Have you ever used a
cliche? You most likely have used them and other building blocks
consisting of frequently used patterns of speech. And why not? If a
phrase is appropriate, use it! There is no need to continually
re-invent the wheel.
Jack
Topi Ylinen
John <zo...@astro.ocis.temple.edu> wrote:
>
>Supposedly the boom-boom-boom-boom of the Jaws theme was originally supposed
>to be suggestive of a nervous heartbeat--
I always thought it was ripped off from Dvorak's 9th...
(in fact, whenever my brother heard Dvorak's 9th, he used to complain - not
seriously, fortunately - that the guy is plagiating the Jaws theme :-)
===========================================================================
|| Topi Ylinen || "Hwaet, we gardena in geardagum, ||
|| f1t...@kielo.uta.fi || theodcyninga thrym gefrunon, ||
|| t...@modeemi.cs.tut.fi || hu tha aethelingas ellen fremedon!" ||
===========================================================================
Seth
>> got his idea for the main theme from Batman from the opening bars of Paul
>> Hindemith's
>> "Mathis der Maler"?
>Try listening to the very end of Richard Strauss's MacBeth if you want to
>hear a similarity to Batman!
As for another similarity to Batman, has anyone heard it at the very end of
Bram Stoker's Dracula?
Reuben Settergren
>As Mike Quigley stated earlier in this thread, "smart composers like
>Mozart, Beethoven and so forth 'borrowed' from other smart people."
>There is no reason to condemn resourcefulness. In fact, we are all
>similarly resourceful in one way or another. Have you ever used a
>cliche? You most likely have used them and other building blocks
>consisting of frequently used patterns of speech. And why not? If a
>phrase is appropriate, use it! There is no need to continually
>re-invent the wheel.
Yes, but our normal conversation is not meant as literature. A
necessary (but not sufficient) condition for being a good writer is
avoiding cliches; using language with innovation. An elitist would be
able to argue that movie scores are closer to a "conversational level"
of music, but I don't think that many JW fans are elitists.
Personally, I like to respect JW as an arranger; that way I don't have
to feel that I'm betraying my elitism when I get chills from a
combination of JW good cinematography (the helicopter descending into
that lush canyon in Jurassic Park!, the Darth Vader theme, Schindler's
List . . .).
Reuben
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Michael Gordon Shapiro
Bram Stoker's Dracula?
Speaking of Bram Stroker's Dracula, (I know; this is tangental from a tangent
anyway), has anyone noticed that the soundtrack has the most blatant
ripoff of The Planets' first movement yet featured in a film? I mean,
ripping off Holst is a timehonored tradition among many film composers,
but they usually have the common decency to change the material a little.
(Er.. I'm assuming that Bram Stroker's D' is the one with Wynona Ryder in
it.)
r0ch...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Somebody help me on this---didn't somebody named Igor once say "Lesser
artists borrow, great artists steal"?
Well, there you go.
Ray
Jos Vissers
>> As for another similarity to Batman, has anyone heard it at the very end of
>Bram Stoker's Dracula?
>Speaking of Bram Stroker's Dracula, (I know; this is tangental from a tangent
>anyway), has anyone noticed that the soundtrack has the most blatant
>ripoff of The Planets' first movement yet featured in a film? I mean,
>ripping off Holst is a timehonored tradition among many film composers,
>but they usually have the common decency to change the material a little.
Well so has Mr. Kilar. The planet has a 5/4 beat while Dracula has
a 4/4 beat. :-) Just leave out one note and you're there.
>(Er.. I'm assuming that Bram Stroker's D' is the one with Wynona Ryder in
>it.)
Yes it is.
Jos
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John_S...@magic-bbs.corp.apple.com
ludicrous. (I'm sure I've heard that semi-tone before!). But I'll play
your silly game......
How about the last movement of Dvorak's New World Symphony ?
Bah-Dum Bah-Dum Bah-Dum-Bah-Dum Bah-da-bah-da-bah-da