X-Rated Salome?
Mike Quigley#2
Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
When I was in Seattle recently, I also saw a laser disk of Salome which had
one of those parental guidance type warnings on the cover (sorry, I can't
remember which production this was). Has anyone seen something like this and
can comment on it?
adolphson
a4...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley#2) writes:
> I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
> Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
> a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
San Francisco borrowed the production from the Los Angeles
Music Center Opera. I saw it about 3 years ago and thought
it was kind of silly. Yes, Maria Ewing stood nude under
intense white light at the end of the Dance of the 7 Veils.
Big deal. There was some vague reaction, but by and large people
didn't dwell on it. While the Salome in this silly production
appears nekkid as a jaybird for about 10 seconds, the Jokanaan
wears nothing but a g-string whenever he's on stage.
I'd really rather hear the opera sung well than see Maria
Ewing's pubic hair, but maybe that's just me.
--
Arne Adolphson "So many women fall in love with a dress, bring it
adol...@mizar.usc.edu home, and find absolutely nothing that will go with
or it. So it's left there alone in the dark. It's sad."
ar...@ursa-major.spdcc.com -- Joan Crawford
Robert M. Golub, MD
wrote:
> I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
> Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
> a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
I saw the same production when it came to the Lyric Opera of Chicago; Maria
Ewing was Salome. The Dance did indeed end with a short full frontal nude
view, which quickly faded to stage black. The entire production was really
quite gripping, and IMHO this scene fit into it appropriately.
I don't recall any strong negative reaction to this in the press, and
certainly not in the audience, all of whom were certainly aware of the
scene beforehand. The year before, the Lyric Opera production of Tannhauser
also had some nudity (the women behind Venus, in the first scene I
believe), and 1 or 2 years earlier the production of Lulu had simulated
oral sex.
Interestingly, although there wasn't obvious public clamor, there hasn't
been any nudity since Salome.
-Rob
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Robert M. Golub, M.D. Division of General Internal Medicine
222 E. Superior Northwestern University Medical School
Chicago, IL 60611 E-mail: go...@nwu.edu Voice:(312)908-8630
Fax: (312)908-2857
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jon Conrad
>In article <29...@mindlink.bc.ca>
>a4...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley#2) writes:
>> I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
>> Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
>> a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
>San Francisco borrowed the production from the Los Angeles
>Music Center Opera. I saw it about 3 years ago and thought
>it was kind of silly. Yes, Maria Ewing stood nude under
>intense white light at the end of the Dance of the 7 Veils.
>Big deal. There was some vague reaction, but by and large people
>didn't dwell on it.
Partly, I would guess, because skin/titillation *is* in fact what this
scene (this opera?) is about. Salome does a striptease to turn her
stepfather on and get what she wants; it's right there in the libretto.
So it's hard even for prudes to claim that such a staging is
"excessive." The whole point of SALOME is to shock us by going a little
too far; one couldn't call it an elevatedly noble opera.
The video with Catherine Malfitano also ends her Dance nude, though
positioned so as to somewhat minimize the sight.
>While the Salome in this silly production
>appears nekkid as a jaybird for about 10 seconds, the Jokanaan
>wears nothing but a g-string whenever he's on stage.
This too is almost standard these days (or maybe lots of opera houses
are sharing the same production?). I like the term invented by a
reviewer of the Covent Garden production, in which he remarked that
Robert Hale spent the whole opera "clad only in a Jokanaan-strap."
Jon Alan Conrad
Francois Velde
|>While the Salome in this silly production
|>appears nekkid as a jaybird for about 10 seconds, the Jokanaan
|>wears nothing but a g-string whenever he's on stage.
|This too is almost standard these days (or maybe lots of opera houses
|are sharing the same production?). I like the term invented by a
|reviewer of the Covent Garden production, in which he remarked that
|Robert Hale spent the whole opera "clad only in a Jokanaan-strap."
But when you think about it, near-nakedness is pretty much standard
in Western iconography of the Baptist. After all, he's spent how
many years in the desert eating grasshoppers, and presumably he
did not pack a change of Sunday clothes with him.
(I'm sure Jok's strap serves to counterbalance Salome's strip
tease and deflect accusations of you-know-what).
--
Francois Velde
Dan Koren
>Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
>a full frontal nude.
True.
>Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
No.
dk
Dan Koren
>a4...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley#2) writes:
>
>> I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
>> Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
>> a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
>
>San Francisco borrowed the production from the Los Angeles
>Music Center Opera. I saw it about 3 years ago and thought
>it was kind of silly. Yes, Maria Ewing stood nude under
>intense white light at the end of the Dance of the 7 Veils.
>Big deal. There was some vague reaction, but by and large people
>didn't dwell on it. While the Salome in this silly production
>appears nekkid as a jaybird for about 10 seconds, the Jokanaan
>wears nothing but a g-string whenever he's on stage.
But most of his body was covered with a thick coat of hideously
white make-up.
>I'd really rather hear the opera sung well than see Maria
>Ewing's pubic hair, but maybe that's just me.
She did sing very well, though. I wonder why didn't you notice...
;-)
dk
adolphson
d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) writes:
I was too busy cruising John the Baptist.
--
Arne Adolphson "People often mistake movement for activity,
adol...@mizar.usc.edu for vivaciousness."
ar...@ursa-major.spdcc.com -- Joan Crawford
James H. Haynes
This gives me an opportunity to put in a plug for one of my favorite
history books, "The Proud Tower" by Barbara Tuchman. There's a chapter
devoted to the milieu of R. Strauss - includes such things as the
composer wanted to have live bulls and sheep on stage for a sacrificial
scene in Elektra.
--
hay...@cats.ucsc.edu
hay...@cats.bitnet
"Ya can talk all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was!"
"No it aint! But ya gotta know the territory!"
Meredith Willson: "The Music Man"
Steven E Carl
>a4...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley#2) writes:
>
>> I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
>> Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
>> a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
>
>San Francisco borrowed the production from the Los Angeles
>Music Center Opera. I saw it about 3 years ago and thought
>it was kind of silly. Yes, Maria Ewing stood nude under
>intense white light at the end of the Dance of the 7 Veils.
I saw this productionn in San Francisco this past summer. It was part
of their Strauss festival. I disagree that it was a silly production.
I thought it brought a lot of vibrancy and life to what is basically
a very silly opera. As for Maria Ewing, I'm not particularly enraptured
with her voice, but watching her in the role was a lot more believable
than say Joan Sutherland. She played it as sort of a spaced-out teenager.
As for the nude scene, I think it fit right in, as she's supposed to be
seducing her step-father at that point. Also, to be a little sexist
and ageist here, Ewing, who must be in her mid forties now, is in, ahhh,
very good shape. For the other side, Tom Fox who played Jokanaan is also
in fine shape. In this opera that happens to be very important, to
maintain the sensuousness that should be exuded.
--
*********************************************************************
* STEVEN E. CARL * (408)-737-5565 * *
* AMDAHL CORPORATION * * *
* P.O.Box 3470, M/S 174 * se...@juts.ccc.amdahl.com * *
* Sunnyvale, CA. 94088 * * *
*********************************************************************
Dan Koren
>Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
>a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
The funny thing though is that just a couple of weeks earlier a rock singer
had been arrested by the Oakland police and charged with indecent exposure
for having disrobed herself on stage during a concert.
Makes one wonder...
;-)
dk
Dan Koren
If memory serves, this trend was started sometime in the sixties by
Birgit Nilsson performing Salome at one of the Salzburg festivals.
Strauss intended the dance of the seven veils to be performed by a
ballerina, a notion I believe is supported by the fact there is no
singing during the scene.
dk
Dan Koren
>In article <27ndco$d...@mizar.usc.edu> adol...@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>>In article <29...@mindlink.bc.ca>
>>a4...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley#2) writes:
>>
>>> I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
>>> Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
>>> a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
>>
>>San Francisco borrowed the production from the Los Angeles
>>Music Center Opera. I saw it about 3 years ago and thought
>>it was kind of silly. Yes, Maria Ewing stood nude under
>>intense white light at the end of the Dance of the 7 Veils.
>
>I saw this productionn in San Francisco this past summer. It was part
>of their Strauss festival. I disagree that it was a silly production.
>I thought it brought a lot of vibrancy and life to what is basically
>a very silly opera. As for Maria Ewing, I'm not particularly enraptured
>with her voice, but watching her in the role was a lot more believable
>than say Joan Sutherland. She played it as sort of a spaced-out teenager.
>As for the nude scene, I think it fit right in, as she's supposed to be
>seducing her step-father at that point. Also, to be a little sexist
>and ageist here, Ewing, who must be in her mid forties now, is in, ahhh,
>very good shape. For the other side, Tom Fox who played Jokanaan is also
>in fine shape.
And in San Francisco, he probably got as much attention as Maria Ewing,
if not more...
;-)
dk
Dan Koren
>a4...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley#2) writes:
>
>> I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
>> Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
>> a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
>
>San Francisco borrowed the production from the Los Angeles
>Music Center Opera. I saw it about 3 years ago and thought
>it was kind of silly. Yes, Maria Ewing stood nude under
>intense white light at the end of the Dance of the 7 Veils.
>Big deal. There was some vague reaction, but by and large people
>didn't dwell on it. While the Salome in this silly production
>appears nekkid as a jaybird for about 10 seconds, the Jokanaan
>wears nothing but a g-string whenever he's on stage.
>
>I'd really rather hear the opera sung well than see Maria
>Ewing's pubic hair, but maybe that's just me.
And I'd rather have the scene of the seven veils danced well by a
ballerina than see a soprano in the nude...
dk
Dan Koren
>Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
>a full frontal nude.
This only qualifies for an R, not an X!
;-)
dk
Gareth Morrell
When Maria Ewing first sang Salome at Covent Garden there WAS a noticeable
reaction, i.e. the sound of coins dropping in slots as patrons scranmbled
for opera glasses (20 pence, I believe), and it this production I think she
only went topless!
I was seated at the celesta at the back of the orchestra pit so could not
see the flesh. Unfortunately I was able to hear Ms Ewing's singing, though
many of the audience were unable to.
--
Gareth Morrell do...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Gareth Morrell
>I saw this productionn in San Francisco this past summer. It was part
>of their Strauss festival. I disagree that it was a silly production.
>I thought it brought a lot of vibrancy and life to what is basically
>a very silly opera. As for Maria Ewing, I'm not particularly enraptured
>with her voice, but watching her in the role was a lot more believable
>than say Joan Sutherland.
I'm not aware that Joan Sutherland ever sang Salome!
--
Gareth Morrell do...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Dan Koren
Was it that bad?!?
;-)
dk
Stephen Wilcox, Mathematical Institute, Oxford, (2)73571
> I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
> Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
> a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
Been there, done that. (Well, not me personally, you understand!)
One of the British opera companies did this last year. There was a bit of a
fuss about it at the time, but nothing much. No, I can't remember the company
or the singer, but I do know that it was broadcast by the BBC and I've got a
very poor quality video recording of it; probably too poor to watch.
By the way, over here it would never get an X-rating, nor even an 18, which is
the modern equivalent. It would probably be a 15, or even a 12 depending on how
close the shot was and how long it was on the screen for. I've got one opera
video (the BBC's Marschner `Vampyr' adaptation) with simulated sex and full
frontal shots (male, not female), and *that* only rates a 15. Frankly, I'm not
sure that the film classification boards are too interested in opera.
--
Stephen Wilcox | Bear with me, please. I can't think
wil...@vax.oxford.ac.uk | of anything witty at the moment.
Gabriel M. Kuper
> In article <27ndco$d...@mizar.usc.edu> adol...@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>
> >In article <29...@mindlink.bc.ca>
> >a4...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley#2) writes:
>
> >> I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
> >> Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
> >> a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
>
> >San Francisco borrowed the production from the Los Angeles
> >Music Center Opera. I saw it about 3 years ago and thought
> >it was kind of silly. Yes, Maria Ewing stood nude under
> >intense white light at the end of the Dance of the 7 Veils.
> >Big deal. There was some vague reaction, but by and large people
> >didn't dwell on it.
The previous SF production (around 1982), also had complete nudity
(I think it was Josephine Barstow). The idea was for her to disappear into
the cistern as soon has she had stripped. As usual, the producer had forgotten
that people actually watch the opera from the balcony, so we saw
her getting dressed after the dance as well....
>
> The video with Catherine Malfitano also ends her Dance nude, though
> positioned so as to somewhat minimize the sight.
>
>
> Jon Alan Conrad
The current Salzburg production with Malfitano is just the opposite--she
dances with a sequence of 7 veils in her hands, one after the other.
Gabriel Kuper
Jack Campin
[ about a near-nude Jokanaan in Salome ]
> But when you think about it, near-nakedness is pretty much standard
> in Western iconography of the Baptist. After all, he's spent how
> many years in the desert eating grasshoppers, and presumably he
> did not pack a change of Sunday clothes with him.
Lecky's _History of European Morals_ has lots about nudity in early
Christianity - the Desert Fathers regarded clothes as one of the
temptations of the flesh. In particular he describes Mary of Egypt
as going naked for decades. Does Tavener's opera go along with that?
--
-- Jack Campin -- Room 1.36, Department of Computing & Electrical Engineering,
Mountbatten Building, Heriot-Watt University, Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
TEL: 031 449 5111 ext 4192 FAX: 031 451 3431 INTERNET: ja...@cee.hw.ac.uk
JANET: possibly backwards BITNET: via UKACRL BANG!net: via mcsun & uknet
Gareth Morrell
In a previous article, d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) says:
>In article <27ohg1$k...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> do...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gareth Morrell) writes:
>>
>>In a previous article, d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) says:
>>
>>>In article <29...@mindlink.bc.ca> a4...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley#2) writes:
>>>>I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
>>>>Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
>>>>a full frontal nude.
>>>
>>>True.
>>>
>>>>Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
>>>
>>>No.
>>
>>
>>When Maria Ewing first sang Salome at Covent Garden there WAS a noticeable
>>reaction, i.e. the sound of coins dropping in slots as patrons scranmbled
>>for opera glasses (20 pence, I believe), and it this production I think she
>>only went topless!
>> I was seated at the celesta at the back of the orchestra pit so could not
>>see the flesh. Unfortunately I was able to hear Ms Ewing's singing, though
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Was it that bad?
IMHO yes. Deprived of the visual aspect of her performance, I notice very
clearly the lack of vocal substance and interpretative imagination. I have
the same problem in concerts with Ms Ewing. Her talenets seem to me to lie
entirely in the domain of acting.
--
Gareth Morrell do...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Peter Dickson
> I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
> Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
> a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
This is a bit exotic to me, living in Sweden. In my country we protect
children from seeing violence, not naked human bodies. I haven't seen that
particular opera, but I remember a ballet by the Cullberg group where
four persons undress on stage.
In fact, the first time I saw a naked person on stage, I was a child
of perhaps twelve myself. A man and a woman undress and wash themselves
stark naked. I remember being shaken, but I'm quite sure I was not harmed.
A theatre group in Stockholm called Galeasen is famous for doing all sorts
of things on stage. They regularily display their genitals and urinate on
stage. In one play a girl sucks the penis of one of the guys. Yet, I don't
think anyone would try to stop a child trying to enter the theatre.
The group is one of the highest esteemed in the country, and my personal
opinion is that they deserve it.
The funny thing is that it's forbidden by law to have live sex shows,
but as long as it's culture, anything goes.
By the way, at a party given by one of the members of the group, one of his
collegues enters the room. "Hello, I'm Bernt", he says. "I'm the guy Mats
pisses on..."
Peter Dickson
clovis lark
>This gives me an opportunity to put in a plug for one of my favorite
>history books, "The Proud Tower" by Barbara Tuchman. There's a chapter
>devoted to the milieu of R. Strauss - includes such things as the
>composer wanted to have live bulls and sheep on stage for a sacrificial
>scene in Elektra.
>--
You know, that last production I saw must have been historically accurate.
All I saw onstage were bulls and sheep.
clovis lark
>If memory serves, this trend was started sometime in the sixties by
>Birgit Nilsson performing Salome at one of the Salzburg festivals.
>dk
I wasn't aware that Nilsson ever sang at Salzburg. When was this and what else
did she do there? Speaking of opera singers doing the dance, I saw Ursula
Schroeder-Feinen do an hilarious rendition under Boehm (I mean with Boehm con-
ducting) at the MET. Half her veils clove unto her and she had to remove them
with the grace of a construction worker removing junked cinder blocks.
clovis lark
> I was seated at the celesta at the back of the orchestra pit so could not
>see the flesh. Unfortunately I was able to hear Ms Ewing's singing, though
>many of the audience were unable to.
>--
>Gareth Morrell do...@cleveland.freenet.edu
The trend immortalized by Billy Crystal, that "She rook marverous. And it's
more important to rook marverous than to sing marverous.", was first, to my
knowledge, presented to the public with Grace Bumbry as the wiggly babe. The
dance culminated in a gold lame` [the dance was lame] bikini with a bunch of
bumps and grinds. Now back to pubic hair. I am shocked, yes SHOCKED, that
nobody has mentioned the best rendition of Wilde's play available right now,
namely Ken Russell's Salome's Last Dance, available at fine video stores
everywhere. The dance is a wild treat that will tittilate all from SF to
Bangkok. And with the great Glenda Jackson as the best Herodias since Astrid
Varnay (happy birthday to her on her 75th) it makes a faaaabulllousss evening.
Janis Wallace
(Robert M. Golub, MD) wrote:
>
> In article <29...@mindlink.bc.ca>, a4...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley#2)
> wrote:
>
> > I just read about a San Francisco opera production of Salome in the American
> > Record Guide. It says the Dance of the 7 Veils climaxed (?) with Salome doing
> > a full frontal nude. Did this cause any reaction one way or the other?
>
> I saw the same production when it came to the Lyric Opera of Chicago; Maria
> Ewing was Salome. The Dance did indeed end with a short full frontal nude
> view, which quickly faded to stage black. The entire production was really
> quite gripping, and IMHO this scene fit into it appropriately.
>
> I don't recall any strong negative reaction to this in the press, and
> certainly not in the audience, all of whom were certainly aware of the
> scene beforehand. The year before, the Lyric Opera production of Tannhauser
> also had some nudity (the women behind Venus, in the first scene I
> believe), and 1 or 2 years earlier the production of Lulu had simulated
> oral sex.
>
> Interestingly, although there wasn't obvious public clamor, there hasn't
> been any nudity since Salome.
>
How about the video of "Mefistopholes" with Samuel Ramey? I took it over
to my 74-year old mother's house to watch it with her. You should have
seen her expression during the first act street festival!!! I thought her
eyes would pop out. In fact, I had to replay it THREE times before she
would let me continue with the rest of the tape!! :) Then she said "well,
if you think that's something, you should see the Dance of the 7 Veils in
"Salome"!! (Mom???)
Cheers
----------
Janis Wallace
University of California, Irvine
Executive Vice Chancellor's Office
jkwa...@uci.edu
Robert M. Golub, MD
Wallace) wrote:
Yeah, I had forgotten about that. It was a *very busy* scene, in terms of
both action and in music; I think I missed a lot.
Maybe in addition to supertitles there should be instant replay.