Was Beethoven Gay?
AUS...@guvm.ccf.georgetown.edu
I saw a couple posts about the new Beethoven movie mentioning the
secret woman. Wasn't Beethoven gay? I don't mean this in a critical
way I'm just asking. After all, he never got married and I'm not
sure if he ever lived with a woman or a man. Plus, there's that
unusual affair with the nephew he adores who tries to shoot himself.
Didn't the nephew live with him for awhile? Historically, most
researchers have chosen to leave out issues related to homosexuality
because they didn't want to embarass anyone or themselves which
I can understand given the times in which they wrote. I'd just
like to know because it's one more fascinating bit of information
about a great composer.
David
Brien Sullivan
: I may have sent this note twice so I apologize in advance.
:
: I saw a couple posts about the new Beethoven movie mentioning the
: secret woman. Wasn't Beethoven gay?
It is doubtful that Beethoven was gay. Bachelorhood hood may be a sign
of maladjustment to proximity with another human being of either
sex, but it in no way defines the emotional attachment to either sex.
Beethoven was actually involed with many women. He may have had a love
hate realtionship with some, and generally got involved with married
women who weren't available. The immortal beloved may have been Dorothea
von Ertmann, a pianist and the wife of an Austrian army officer. With
regard to Beethoven's son Carl, it would be a poor extrapolation to
assume that there was anything other than paternal affection for the
boy who was severly traumatized by the struggle between Beethoven and his
mother to be his sole guardian.
Ann--
{brie...@dorsai.org}
#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
A Watched Rock Boils No
Moss
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
Jwriter43
like it less? I am SO sick of this type of thread. Grow up! People are
people. It just doesn't matter whether they are gay, straight, bi or
abstaining.
Deryk Barker
: I may have sent this note twice so I apologize in advance.
:
: I saw a couple posts about the new Beethoven movie mentioning the
: secret woman. Wasn't Beethoven gay? I don't mean this in a critical
: way I'm just asking. After all, he never got married and I'm not
I don't believe it was for want of trying. He aked at least one woman
to marry him, and was in love with another, married woman for some
time. (Sorry, the names escape me).
Does it automatically follow now that all lifelong bachelors and
spinsters (to use very old-fashioned terms) must have been homosexual?
[...]
: I can understand given the times in which they wrote. I'd just
: like to know because it's one more fascinating bit of information
: about a great composer.
Will it affect your enjoyment or understanding of his music? Maybe
Beethoven was gay *and* black? Are you attempting to get the NEA to
withdraw funding from Beethoven performances too? :-)
Seriously: I'm afraid that I don't consider a composer's sexual
preferences particularly interesting, unless they somehow
significantly affect the music - Tchaikovsky would be a case in point
I guess.
--
Deryk.
=================================================================
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Without music, life |
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada | would be a mistake |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | |
|phone: +1 604 370 4452 | (Friedrich Nietzsche).|
=================================================================
Bruce...@brecant.worldbank.org
matter, neither right nor wrong, but no one else's business. I later felt that
all information about everyone should be totally public, on the theory that
(1) rational man makes the best decisions given the most complete data (you can
see I was still very young) and (2) this defuses the possibility of blackmail.
I guess I've reached an uncomfortable compromise. Yes, in theory, private
lives should remain private. And even for public figures (in whatever field),
I find the prurient slavering over suspected deviations (financial, sexual,
whatever) detestable.
However, knowing people's orientations can provide explantory power. Having
learned of Benjamin Britten's homosexuality can help provide insight, for
example, into _Peter Grimes_.
I suppose for such music as is created by soulless machines or
millions-of-monkeys-pounding-typewriters or totally stochastic processes it
wouldn't be relevant. One of the fascinations of music created by human beings
is WHY choices were made, and the makeup of the composer can contain important
clues.
Regards,
Bruce
Walking by the Light of the Shadow...
> I may have sent this note twice so I apologize in advance.
>
> I saw a couple posts about the new Beethoven movie mentioning the
> secret woman. Wasn't Beethoven gay? I don't mean this in a critical
> way I'm just asking. After all, he never got married and I'm not
> sure if he ever lived with a woman or a man. Plus, there's that
> unusual affair with the nephew he adores who tries to shoot himself.
> Didn't the nephew live with him for awhile?
I had heard he was gay, as well, and was then confused when I read a biography of
the composer in "The Heritage of Music" (a not-particularly-good eencyclopedia of
music) that suggested that he had been romantically linked to a princess. I had
never heard that before, and have never heard it since. Anybody else?
--David
Carleton College
Theoretically Class of '95
Trisha Benedict
: In article <3dd76a$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, <jwri...@aol.com> writes:
: > What's the difference? If he was gay, do you like his music more? Do you
: > like it less? I am SO sick of this type of thread. Grow up! People are
: > people. It just doesn't matter whether they are gay, straight, bi or
: > abstaining.
: >
: However, knowing people's orientations can provide explantory power. Having
: learned of Benjamin Britten's homosexuality can help provide insight, for
: example, into _Peter Grimes_.
I absolutely agree and I'm glad you responded so eloquently. If we know
what life experiences an artist has had, we can understand his/her art
better. This is true of *any* experience, not just gender
orientation (ie, Shostakovich's persecution by the Stalin regime,
Bruckner's symphomy composed as a memorial to Wagner, even Mozart's really
mediocre "Linz" Symphony, composed in 4 days while he was passing thru,
etc, etc, etc). But since being gay could be a prisonable offense or at
the very least the reason for complete social ostracization, I think it's
important to know something like that. It certainly affected Tchaikowsky;
Oscar Wilde suffered terribly and I believe knowing he was gay affects
how one *reads* his works; Britten and the complex relationships of his
characters...even today, with most artists out of the closet, it still
affects their works. The most poignant example is Corigliani's First
Symphony, dubbed the AIDS Symphony, and written with a lot of frustration
and pain.
And I don't believe Beethoven was gay. I think he was just the neurotic
product of an abusive, alcoholic father who could never create working
relationships. And I believe that his relationship with his nephew was
an attempt to forge some sort of family for himself. He seemed to have a
real knack for alienating people - your basic twisted genius.
James C Liu
>I absolutely agree and I'm glad you responded so eloquently. If we know
>what life experiences an artist has had, we can understand his/her art
>better. This is true of *any* experience, not just gender
>orientation (ie, Shostakovich's persecution by the Stalin regime,
>Bruckner's symphomy composed as a memorial to Wagner, even Mozart's really
>mediocre "Linz" Symphony, composed in 4 days while he was passing thru,
So Handel's Messiah, written in a fortnight, and the last three Mozart
symphonies, each dashed off with hardly a second thought in a fortnight
apiece, must also be mediocre works unworthy of our attention. How long
it takes for someone to write something has exceedingly little to do with
how good it is. Me, I happen to think the "Linz" symphony is a fairly
great work, and can point to no shortage of recordings (Walter, Klemperer,
Beecham) that would bear that assertion out.
>etc, etc, etc). But since being gay could be a prisonable offense or at
>the very least the reason for complete social ostracization, I think it's
>important to know something like that. It certainly affected Tchaikowsky;
>Oscar Wilde suffered terribly and I believe knowing he was gay affects
>how one *reads* his works; Britten and the complex relationships of his
>characters...even today, with most artists out of the closet, it still
>affects their works. The most poignant example is Corigliani's First
>Symphony, dubbed the AIDS Symphony, and written with a lot of frustration
>and pain.
We've covered this ground before on the group. I've spoken my piece
on this issue before, so I'll refrain from further comment and merely
ask this: Was homosexuality always so deeply frowned upon? I'm asking
just as much out of curiosity as I am asking rhetorically, but I do recall
a certain time period not too long ago being referred to as the "Gay
Nineties." For more reasons than one.
I would also submit that while knowledge of the circumstances under
which a score was composed may contribute to one's understanding of the
piece, it is important to try not to read too much into the piece because
of suspected circumstances. Benjamin Britten was homosexual, at a time
when homosexuality was frowned upon. But that doesn't make the title
character of "Peter Grimes" a self-portrait, for instance.
>And I don't believe Beethoven was gay. I think he was just the neurotic
>product of an abusive, alcoholic father who could never create working
>relationships. And I believe that his relationship with his nephew was
>an attempt to forge some sort of family for himself. He seemed to have a
>real knack for alienating people - your basic twisted genius.
Maynard Solomon has written extensively on the issue of Beethoven's
psyche in his biography. I don't think homosexuality even entered the
list of considerations. Solomon *did* suggest that Schubert was a
homosexual and a pedophile, and that these traits give an especially
dark edge to music such as, say, Erlkoenig. So he's certainly not one
to shrink from such suggestions.
--
/James C.S. Liu, MD "There is always an easy answer to
jl...@world.std.com every human problem - neat, plausible,
Department of Medicine and wrong."
New England Med Ctr, Boston MA -- H. L. Mencken
I. Neill Reid
>kun...@crl.com (Trisha Benedict) writes:
>
[ snip ]
> We've covered this ground before on the group. I've spoken my piece
>on this issue before, so I'll refrain from further comment and merely
>ask this: Was homosexuality always so deeply frowned upon? I'm asking
>just as much out of curiosity as I am asking rhetorically, but I do recall
>a certain time period not too long ago being referred to as the "Gay
>Nineties." For more reasons than one.
If you're referring to the 1890s, then `gay' certainly does not
carry the same connotations as in the 1990s. It means, dashing, debonair,
light, frivolous, whatever. Homosexuality was certainly a matter
for severe disapproval in Victorian times - vide Wilde's disgrace.
In fact, I cannot call to mind a society which openly tolerated
homosexuality since the 2nd century Roman Emmpire (at least, within
Europe - and excluding the bits absorbed by the Turks after the
fall of Constantinople). Homosexuality certainly existed - look
at Edward II (England) and his favourites, Richard II and ditto - but was
by no means acceptable behaviour - look what happened to them.
As to whether it is necessary to know sexual orientation
in order to appreciate fully a musical composition - I
suspect not. But it is important if one is trying to understand
the composer in an historical context.
One should also resist the temptation to apply current mores
to past ages - thus, lack of marriage does not imply
incompatibility with the opposite sex. (In Beethoven's case I
think we have enough evidence to infer that he was simply
almost impossible to get on with.)
Neill Reid
Victor Khatutsky
[snip]
: I would also submit that while knowledge of the circumstances under
: which a score was composed may contribute to one's understanding of the
: piece, it is important to try not to read too much into the piece because
: of suspected circumstances. Benjamin Britten was homosexual, at a time
: when homosexuality was frowned upon. But that doesn't make the title
: character of "Peter Grimes" a self-portrait, for instance.
A quote from Toscanini in the latest Fanfare (p.384) seems very appropriate.
He used to say that the first movement of Beethoven's Third was not
Napoleon but Allegro con brio.
--
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rob...@unixg.ubc.ca
: Bruce...@brecant.worldbank.org wrote:
A wonderful mini-essay! But when taken to extremes, as with the recent
Schubert controversy, the discussion becomes ludicrous.
Fred Goldrich
>
>A quote from Toscanini in the latest Fanfare (p.384) seems very appropriate.
>He used to say that the first movement of Beethoven's Third was not
>Napoleon but Allegro con brio.
I haven't read the "Fanfare" piece, but let me contrast this
quote with another from Samuel Chotzinoff's book. (I haven't got the
book handy, but Elizabeth Green quotes it in _The Modern Conductor_.)
Toscanini on interpreting a score: "Sometimes I tell myself
a story about a beautiful girl. This melody depicts the forest. This
melody is an evil man...."
So, while this quote does nothing to support the notion that
Toscanini drew interpretive insight from the composer's personal life
(which is how this thread started), it does add a little balance to
the point of view suggested by the admittedly out of context "Fanfare"
quote.
-- Fred Goldrich
--
Fred Goldrich
gold...@panix.com
Deryk Barker
: In article <D1DGH...@world.std.com>, jl...@world.std.com (James C Liu) writes...
: >kun...@crl.com (Trisha Benedict) writes:
: >
: [ snip ]
: > We've covered this ground before on the group. I've spoken my piece
: >on this issue before, so I'll refrain from further comment and merely
: >ask this: Was homosexuality always so deeply frowned upon? I'm asking
: >just as much out of curiosity as I am asking rhetorically, but I do recall
: >a certain time period not too long ago being referred to as the "Gay
: >Nineties." For more reasons than one.
: If you're referring to the 1890s, then `gay' certainly does not
: carry the same connotations as in the 1990s. It means, dashing, debonair,
: light, frivolous, whatever.
In Britain it also carried connotations of promiscuity and prostition:
see "The Other Victorians" by Stephen Marcus (?).
[...]
: One should also resist the temptation to apply current mores
: to past ages - thus, lack of marriage does not imply
: incompatibility with the opposite sex. (In Beethoven's case I
: think we have enough evidence to infer that he was simply
: almost impossible to get on with.)
If I was a great composer rapidly losing my hearing *I'd* be
impossible to live with. (And didn't Smetana go insane after login his
hearing?)
fehs...@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com
dba...@turing.camosun.bc.ca (Deryk Barker) writes:
>And didn't Smetana go insane after login
With a subject line like the one above, who wouldn't?
[my deepest apologies to Deryk for "quoting" him out of context, but the
temptation was too much to resist...]
;^)
len.
William Blair
: What's the difference? If he was gay, do you like his music more? Do you
: like it less? I am SO sick of this type of thread. Grow up! People are
: people. It just doesn't matter whether they are gay, straight, bi or
: abstaining.
Exactly! Who cares about the sexual preferences of anyone other than
themselves? It's the <music> that counts, just as it's the <person> that
counts. Sex is a side issue.
--
Michael Siemon
writes:
>Exactly! Who cares about the sexual preferences of anyone other than
>themselves?
Ummm, maybe (assuming a slight trace of other-direction in one's
sexuality), the preferences of *certain* others are relevant?
>It's the <music> that counts, just as it's the <person> that
>counts. Sex is a side issue.
Well, personally, I always find it *immensely* interesting and curious
and even thought-provoking to find real examples of heterosexual artists
who are any good, but your mileage may very, of course. So much of
their music, at least as normally expounded, seems to depend heavily
on romantic involvements with the opposite sex. This strikes me as
very strange, but of course I don't quite have the heterosexual per-
spective down pat, so I keep trying to understand it ...
--
Michael L. Siemon We must know the truth, and we must
m...@panix.com love the truth we know, and we must
act according to the measure of our love.
-- Thomas Merton
Roger Lustig
And sex isn't part of the person?
Let's not kid ourselves. Even now, the theatres are packed with
people watching a movie about Beethoven's sex life--or absence thereof.
Music lovers and others have considered this important for a century and
a half. Nobody complains that it's not germane to the music; do we say
that of the Heiligenstadt testament?
No, it's only when *homosexuality* is mentioned that sex is suddenly
irrelevant.
Roger
>--
Jay Azneer
relationship to nephew Karl?????????
Jay
Trebordog
you know the significance of "capricorn" in Barber's Capricorn Concerto?),
at others, it is not. However, while Beethoven was excessively
overprotective in the case of his Nephew, the relationship does not seem
to have been (overtly at least) sexual. As far as Beethoven's sexuality,
with what we have, we really can't be sure. Perhaps there was something in
all those dialogue books that Sch. destroyed?
Fred Goldrich
Trebordog <treb...@aol.com> wrote:
>... (How many of
>you know the significance of "capricorn" in Barber's Capricorn Concerto?)..
I don't, and I'd like to.
--
Fred Goldrich
gold...@panix.com
Dale Gold
> While at times questions of sexuality can be very important (How many of
> you know the significance of "capricorn" in Barber's Capricorn Concerto?),
> at others, it is not.
I used to live pretty close to Barber's circles, but never heard
anything about the significance of the Capricorn Concerto.
What do you mean?
Dale
--
- dg...@basso.actrix.gen.nz --- Korokoro, New Zealand -
- Principal Double Bass, New Zealand Symphony Orchestra -
<a href="http://www.actrix.gen.nz/users/dgold/">My Home Page</a>
<a href="http://www.actrix.gen.nz/users/dgold/nzso.html">NZSO Page</a>
Trebordog
Barber and Menotti built and lived in (together) for 30 years. While we
always hear about straight couples, gay partnerships are almost always
ignored and supressed. An excellent example of this is who Vivian Perlis
continues to "protects" Copland's reputation, and how Rita Steblin (sp?)
"saved" Schubert by stating that he "was not a Michael Jackson." Such
ideas get in the way of determining basic historical data. So and so was
born here, married, etc.
Sorry to get off the subject a bit.
Lutz H. Tack
Lutz
---
Lutz H. Tack
ta...@wharfrat.fido.de
Jeff Harrington
: I don't care. I REALLY don't care.
The thing is ->
"=-)
You really can't blame any minority group for wanting him!
Too bad he wasn't Irish?
Or was he???
Does anybody *really* know?
Jeff Harrington
idea...@dorsai.dorsai.org
--
(*) New IdEAL ORDER WWW HOME PAGE: (*)
(*) http://www-bprc.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?ideal_order.html (*)
(*) Elsie Russell Links! Jeff Harrington Links! Music - Art - The Bizarre(*)
(*) IdEAL ORDER Psychic TV - All Days But Thursdays(ABC) on CBS Since 1984 (*)
Bobschaaf
> While at times questions of sexuality can be very important (How many of
> you know the significance of "capricorn" in Barber's Capricorn
Concerto?),
> at others, it is not.
Then, how many know the what 'Susie Asado' of the Stein/Thomson song
means?
from Wall Street,
Bob Schaaf
James C Liu
>Lutz H. Tack (Lutz_H...@p103.wharfrat.fido.de) wrote:
>: I don't care. I REALLY don't care.
>The thing is ->
>"=-)
>You really can't blame any minority group for wanting him!
>Too bad he wasn't Irish?
>Or was he???
>Does anybody *really* know?
Yeah, right, contemporary research actually suggests that Beethoven
was ... Chinese! Works for me ...
--
/James C.S. Liu, MD "The lion and the calf shall lie down
jl...@world.std.com together, but the calf won't get much
Department of Medicine sleep."
New England Med Ctr, Boston MA -- Woody Allen, Laws and Proverbs
Stan Yi-Huang Liao
marry, he would be gay. What's all this obsession about anyways?
Beethoven's not having married implies nothing about his sexuality,
period. As far as I can recall, the great Anton Bruckner did not get
married either. But he was definitely not gay.
I am celibate and perfectly straight, and I don't see why these
characteristics have to be mutually exclusive. Also, some raised the
question about the close relationship between Beethoven and his
nephew. Again, I raise my objection. The relationship between two
persons of the same sex can be *very* intimate without any sex
involved.
Stan
Jwriter43
>Lutz H. Tack (Lutz_H...@p103.wharfrat.fido.de) wrote:
>: I don't care. I REALLY don't care.
>The thing is ->
>"=-)
>You really can't blame any minority group for wanting him!
>Too bad he wasn't Irish?
>Or was he???
>Does anybody *really* know?
James C.S. Liu, MD (jl...@world.std.com) wrote:
> Yeah, right, contemporary research actually suggests that Beethoven
>was ... Chinese! Works for me ...
I just read that in a former or current life, Beethoven was a Puerto Rican
bath attendant.
--
JWri...@aol.com
Trebordog
otherwise? While being straight is more prevalent, there are certainly a
lot of gays in music, many of them "married" to women or otherwise.
WARREN KENT
noodle. It is rare indeed to have an IQ in excess of 200 by today's Binet
standards. He was sooo prolific and that in itself was more than sex drive.
He was probably an alien with
a Pentiumm implant.
Kevin Hamner
Ah, that "Pentium Implant" explains the old legend that the fabulously gifted
Beethoven, with all his tremendous logical powers of composition, was unable to
learn his multiplication tables!
--Kevin
Anthony Jones
: I don't think Beethoven's banana will ever be of as much interest as his
Beethoven prolific??
Talk about Bach, Haydn, Mozart - now they are prolific.
But Beethoven?
R. Iain Farquhar
>From: abe...@ix.netcom.com (Eduardo Abello)
>Subject: Re: Was Beethoven Gay?
>Date: 15 Jan 1995 14:53:05 GMT
>In <3f4th6$2fs$1...@sydney.DIALix.oz.au> ajo...@sydney.DIALix.oz.au (Anthony Jones)
>writes:
>What are you talking about? Beethoven was an absolute musical genius! OK, so
>Mozart wrote his first "Kyrie Eleison" at the age of ten and Haydn was a
>member of the Vienna Boys' Choir, but Beethoven composed his Ninth Symphony
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Haydn was a member of the St. Stephen's Cathedral Choir, not the precursor
of the present day Vienna Choir Boys (the Royal and Imperial Court Boy
Singers) who sang at the royal chapel. To confuse things though, the director
of the cathedral choir was also a member of the Imperial musical
establishment, so Haydn and the other boys often got sing for the Empress. The
director ended up directing both choirs at the same time (or better,
neglecting his cathedral duties).
Iain
>began a Tenth under total deafness. That is quite impressive.
mr.bo...@gmail.com
Peter T. Daniels
> +Jwriter43 Shut the fuck up, you don't know why people want to know certain things, and no one cares if you like a thread or not, now I agree with the liking or disliking his music more but the rest is bullshit, and you should really consider other reasons people want to know.
seub...@gmail.com
> I may have sent this note twice so I apologize in advance.
>
> I saw a couple posts about the new Beethoven movie mentioning the
> secret woman. Wasn't Beethoven gay? I don't mean this in a critical
> way I'm just asking. After all, he never got married and I'm not
> sure if he ever lived with a woman or a man. Plus, there's that
> unusual affair with the nephew he adores who tries to shoot himself.
> Didn't the nephew live with him for awhile? Historically, most
> researchers have chosen to leave out issues related to homosexuality
> because they didn't want to embarass anyone or themselves which
> I can understand given the times in which they wrote. I'd just
> like to know because it's one more fascinating bit of information
> about a great co> David
mposer.
>
lmao what did i just find
dorissd...@gmail.com
> like it less? I am SO sick of this type of thread. Grow up! People are
> people. It just doesn't matter whether they are gay, straight, bi or
> abstaining.
John W Kennedy
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
Joe Roberts
"John W Kennedy"wrote:
> dorissdraziccc wrote:
>> ?????, 23. ???????? 1994. 01.55.38 UTC+1, Jwriter43 ?? ???????/??:
>>> you like it less? I am SO sick of this type of thread. Grow up!
>>> People are people. It just doesn't matter whether they are gay,
>>> straight, bi or abstaining.
>>
>> No, it wouldn't affect my liking of his music at all, and tbh i don't
>> know why i'm even on this site, it just appeared in my mind that he might
>> gay and i came to ask google for an answer. Why are you so upset about
>> people wanting to know if somebody is gay? Its completely normal.
>
> This is not Google, and you are replying to a message from 24 years ago.
still be ticking.
Cheers,
Joe
imaca...@yahoo.com
Robert Dickerson
Robert Dickerson
> > петак, 23. децембар 1994. 01.55.38 UTC+1, Jwriter43 је написао/ла:
> > > What's the difference? If he was gay, do you like his music more? Do you
> > > like it less? I am SO sick of this type of thread. Grow up! People are
> > > people. It just doesn't matter whether they are gay, straight, bi or
> > > abstaining.
> >