Conducting without score
Victor A. Poleshuck, M.D.
He and others occasionally do this, and I've not been overly impressed with
the result being better than when the conductor has the score and refers to
it during the performance. This particular performance was a bit ragged
early on, although it ended wonderfully. I don't have enough experience at
concerts when conductors have been scoreless to really know if a) they
usually know the score absolutely and b) that it makes a difference,
although the concentration on the music isn't distracted by constantly
referring to the pages as well as flipping the pages frequently. Do some
really know the music well enough to rehearse without the score also? Do
orchestra professionals believe it enhances the performance if the conductor
is able to work without the score?
HenryFogel
>From: "Victor A. Poleshuck, M.D." v...@rochester.rr.com
>Date: Sat, 06 November 1999 03:15 PM EST
>Message-id: <R50V3.4570$JD1.2...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>
Some conductors certainly do know the music well enough to conduct it without a
score--though few rehearse that way because they probably haven't memorized the
rehearsal cue numbers that are used for reference when starting and stopping. I
did see Bernstein rehearse Mahler 2 without a score, and Barenboim rehearse the
Marriage of Figaro (the whole opera) without a score. But normally conductors
do use scores at rehearsals -- even if they don't look at them often.
Some conductors have the kind of memory that permits them not to use a score,
and others do not. Georg Solti, surely a very important conductor, used a score
for everything (he even conducted the National Anthem at the opening of each
CSO season with music in front of him). Conductors who don't use it feel that
it frees them up for better eye contact with the musicians, and a better
rapport leading to greater expressivity.
Whatever raggedness that you noted in the performance you saw is unlikely to
have been related to whether the conductor was using a score.
Henry Fogel
Dave Hurwitz
personal one that varies from conductor to conductor, and has no bearing on
the success or failure of the interpretation. I've seen conductors,
including Solti and Bernstein, get quite lost with a score, and also [in a
disastrous performance of Shostokovich's Fifth that I was playing in] a
conductor get totally lost who insisted on conducting from (very much less
the perfect) memory. You should also keep in mind that, except in very slow
music, real time performance happens much to quickly for a conductor to
actually "read" the score. What really happens is that he has marked it up,
usually with lots of red ink, and is simply reminding himself of important
entrances, major cues, dynamics -- the general details of the
interpretation. It's up to the players to get the notes right, phrase
accurately, listen to each other, play clean rhythms, etc. If that hasn't
happened by performance time, then it's too late, score or not.
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
ClassicsToday.com
http://www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
Tony Duggan
>
> Henry is absolutely correct, the choice to use a score or not is a purely
> personal one that varies from conductor to conductor, and has no bearing on
> the success or failure of the interpretation.
Klemperer was once asked why he always used a score in music he
must have known by heart. "The score is a good friend," was his
reply.
--
Tony Duggan, England.
My (developing) Mahler recordings survey is at:
http://www.musicweb.force9.co.uk/music/Mahler/index.html
Tony Movshon
Tony Duggan <scri...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
> Dave Hurwitz wrote:
> > Henry is absolutely correct, the choice to use a score or not is a purely
> > personal one that varies from conductor to conductor, and has no bearing on
> > the success or failure of the interpretation.
>
> Klemperer was once asked why he always used a score in music he
> must have known by heart. "The score is a good friend," was his
> reply.
My memory contains a more caustic Klempererism on the same subject.
Asked why he always conducted from the score by someone who had just
remarked on Toscanini's ability to conduct without one, Klemperer
responded "Because I can read music".
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
Center for Neural Science New York University
Commspkmn
<<Some conductors certainly do know the music well enough to conduct it without
a
score--though few rehearse that way because they probably haven't memorized the
rehearsal cue numbers that are used for reference when starting and stopping.
>>
Henry:
I once attended a Pittsburgh Symphony rehearsal with Lorin Maazel of the
Roussel Bacchus et Ariane Suite No. 2. Maazel had the score in front of him,
but it was closed. At the conclusion of the complete run-through, Maazel then
opened the score and went through a number of specific corrections and comments
from the beginning to end of the piece, each time referring to rehearsal
numbers.
Unusual, to say the least.
Ken Meltzer
Neal
and usually in performance as well. I would not dream of going scoreless
unless I knew the work ABSOLUTELY. Competent conductors understand the score
absolutely, but only some really *know* it by heart.
Commspkmn wrote in message <19991106171406...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
Bill Dishman
without a score I feel that it is the interaction with the players that will
make or break a performance. In Solti's memoirs he mentions the
necessity of eye contact. I have played for conductors who have done this
very well with and w/o scores. Less experienced ones are less proficient
in this area and tend to rely on the printed page. As a player, a look or
facial expression can be as important as the clarity of the stick or hand
technique.
Just a thought...
Bill Dishman
heck5
"Victor A. Poleshuck, M.D." <v...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
Do orchestra professionals believe it enhances the performance if the
conductor is able to work without the score?
I don't think that it makes much difference. The conductor must be able
to give clear signals to the orchestra. Also, the conductor must hear in
three distinct time zones.
Future - he/she must know exactly what is supposed to sound, before it
actually does.
Present - must instantly hear and assess the sounds produced for
accuracy, precision, etc.
past - what has just sounded, which will indicate where the phrasing,
rhythm, etc are going.
With/without score doesn't really affect this. When things fall apart,
it's so instantaneous that there is very little time to react and make
the correction - vital cue, eye contact, whatever. Conductor just has to
know what comes next.
Interestingly, I saw a video of Solti, from the 60s - Tannhauser
Overture with Orch de Paris(?). No score. It was beautiful, out in
front of the music the whole time - cues and signals just a fraction on
top. Very lively and alert performance.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Praetorius
>Thursday night Christopher Seaman conducted the Brahms #4 without the
score.
>really know the music well enough to rehearse without the score also? Do
>orchestra professionals believe it enhances the performance if the
conductor
>is able to work without the score?
Further to some of the comments about particular conductors:
IIRC, Dimitri Mitropoulus was reputed to have such a good
memory that he even knew the location of rehearsal letters
in the score.
Who was the conductor who (supposedly) said, in response
to why he conducted without a score, "Either the score
is in your head, or your head is in the score."?
Frank Decolvenaere
To reply by e-mail, replace NMBR with 1612.
HenryFogel
>Henry:
>I once attended a Pittsburgh Symphony rehearsal with Lorin Maazel of the
>Roussel Bacchus et Ariane Suite No. 2. Maazel had the score in front of him,
>but it was closed. At the conclusion of the complete run-through, Maazel
>then
>opened the score and went through a number of specific corrections and
>comments
>from the beginning to end of the piece, each time referring to rehearsal
>numbers.
>Unusual, to say the least.
>Ken Meltzer
>
Maazel's memory is truly a phenomenon. Daniel Barenboim tells a story of
running into Maazel on an airplane in Europe, and as they discussed where they
were going, Barenboim indicated that he was going to some city to conduct -
Maazel asked what the piece was, and Barenboim said "Poem of Ecstasy" of
Scriabin. Maazel, who had not conducted the piece himself for a few years, and
who couldn't have prepared for this since he couldn't have known it would come
up, proceeded to tell Barenboim about a half dozen errors in the printed score
and/or in individual parts, identifying them by bar numbers. When Barenboim
arrived and checked the score against the parts -- each of the errors was just
as Maazel said it would be!
Henry Fogel
HenryFogel
>memory that he even knew the location of rehearsal letters
>in the score.
>
>Who was the conductor who (supposedly) said, in response
>to why he conducted without a score, "Either the score
>is in your head, or your head is in the score."?
>
>Frank Decolvenaere
>
Old time New York Philharmonic players say that Mitropoulos rehearsed and
conducted Wozzeck without a score!
Mitropoulos is the subject of the greatest "memory" story I have ever heard.
This has been verified by musicians who were in the Minneapolis Symphony at the
time it occurred. The Minneapolis Symphony had commissioned a new work from
Ernst Krenek -- the orchestral parts arrived in time for the scheduled
rehearsals, but the conductor's score did not. Over the weekend prior to the
first rehearsal, Mitropoulos took home one copy of each orchestral part, laid
them out on the floor of his apartment and proceeded to absorb them all. He
then conducted the first rehearsal on Tuesday without any music in front of
him!
Henry Fogel
Clovis Lark
HenryFogel <henry...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Subject: Conducting without score
>>From: "Victor A. Poleshuck, M.D." v...@rochester.rr.com
>>Date: Sat, 06 November 1999 03:15 PM EST
>>Message-id: <R50V3.4570$JD1.2...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>
>>
>>the result being better than when the conductor has the score and refers to
>>it during the performance. This particular performance was a bit ragged
>>early on, although it ended wonderfully. I don't have enough experience at
>>concerts when conductors have been scoreless to really know if a) they
>>usually know the score absolutely and b) that it makes a difference,
>>although the concentration on the music isn't distracted by constantly
>>really know the music well enough to rehearse without the score also? Do
>>orchestra professionals believe it enhances the performance if the conductor
>>is able to work without the score?
>>
>>
>
>score--though few rehearse that way because they probably haven't memorized the
>did see Bernstein rehearse Mahler 2 without a score, and Barenboim rehearse the
>Marriage of Figaro (the whole opera) without a score. But normally conductors
>do use scores at rehearsals -- even if they don't look at them often.
>
>Some conductors have the kind of memory that permits them not to use a score,
>and others do not. Georg Solti, surely a very important conductor, used a score
>for everything (he even conducted the National Anthem at the opening of each
>CSO season with music in front of him). Conductors who don't use it feel that
As I recall, Solti admitted to having the memory to conduct without the
score. He told people he brought the score along to remind all he could
read music. Playing or conducting music with the score or part in
front of one does not necessarily reflect on ones deficiency of memory or
command of the piece. It frees them to carry a larger repertoire with
thme at any given time (Richter's observation). There are, of course
those anomolies that merit destinction. When the Kolish Quartet lost
their music in transit, they performed Webern, Berg and Beethoven without
parts. Schoenberg expressed his disappointment that hadn't played his
quartets without part and they set about doing so much to his delight. It
became a trademark of that group.
>it frees them up for better eye contact with the musicians, and a better
>rapport leading to greater expressivity.
>
>Whatever raggedness that you noted in the performance you saw is unlikely to
>have been related to whether the conductor was using a score.
>
>Henry Fogel
Gary Stucka
while on tours, Maazel would rush into the backstage area of the halls,
toss off his coat, grab a baton, and proceed toward the waiting
orchestra on the stage with the librarian in tow saying "Program #2" or
"Program #4"------the only indication Maazel needed of what music was on
the stands for the concert!
During my years with Solti, he always used a score. It is interesting
to note, however, that for his very first concert with the CSO in Europe
(Edinburgh) in 1971, he conducted from memory. (I've seen the telecast
which included only the Midsummer Night's Dream Overture and Brahms
1.....I'll bet he wisely used a score for the Carter Variations, which
was not televised.)
Janos Blazi
he was conducting the Eigth (LvB) he did not really use the scores but he
turned the pages without hardly looking at them at all (I was sitting in the
first row, so I saw that well.) I could not understand how he was doing it
and to what end?
Janos B.
HenryFogel <henry...@aol.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
19991106153625...@ng-da1.aol.com...
Neal
good conductor can certainly look like they are not paying attention to the
score - in fact, that's a necessity! The orchestra needs the attention. But
the score usually is indeed being read.
2) The conductor might have been simply not feeling scorelessly secure with
some parts of the music, and kept turning so the score would be there for
him.
Janos Blazi wrote in message ...
Caius Marcius
<praetor...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Further to some of the comments about particular conductors:
>
>memory that he even knew the location of rehearsal letters
>in the score.
>
>Who was the conductor who (supposedly) said, in response
>to why he conducted without a score, "Either the score
>is in your head, or your head is in the score."?
Kim Stanley Robinson in his novel Blue Mars (sci-fi, and I don't know
his source for this info, but Robinson seems to be pretty reliable in
his factual accuracy) writes that Toscanini "knew by heart every note
of every instrument for about 250 symphonic works, and the words and
music of about a hundred operas....a bassoonist broke a key of his
bassoon and Toscanini told him not to worry, he wouldn't have to play
that note that night. And he conducted without scores, wrote down
parts for missing players, and so on.....The musicologist [Donald
Francis] Tovey had a similar power. It's as if music is a language
where incredible memory feats are sometimes possible." (p. 538)
- CMC
geog...@webtv.net
head, then you will have your head in the music".
G Gregory
HenryFogel
>From: "Janos Blazi" jbl...@netsurf.de
>Date: Sun, 07 November 1999 10:38 AM EST
>Message-id: <allow-8046em/INN-2.2.1/appro...@broadway.news.is-europe.net>
>
>Last week I heard the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra with Harnoncourt. While
>he was conducting the Eigth (LvB) he did not really use the scores but he
>turned the pages without hardly looking at them at all (I was sitting in the
>first row, so I saw that well.) I could not understand how he was doing it
>and to what end?
>
Conductors who know scores intimately will keep them in front of themselves,
and turn pages (I saw Mariss Jansons do a brilliant Mahler 1 with the Oslo Phil
last night, and he did that - he turned pages but almost never looked at the
score). One reason that some conductors will do that is that just in case
something goes wrong, they might be in a position to refer to the score to help
correct it (let's say one player or section jumps in early, or misses an
entrance -- the score can help adjust). It also may just givethe conductor a
sense of security -- it's there if I need it. If you don't turn the pages, it
will be of no use at all if you do need it.
Henry Fogel
Ibkco
sense of security -- it's there if I need it. If you don't turn the pages, it
will be of no use at all if you do need it.
Henry Fogel
There is a great video of Carlos Kleiber conducting Die Fledermaus (complete)
He has a closed score on the stand. Curiosly there is a single red rose lying
across the score from the beginning of the overture to the very end of the
operetta. A very fine accomplishment for a very fine conductor.
Ira Kraemer
Neal
nothing. It is just a security thing, totally nonsensical.
Ibkco wrote in message <19991108180034...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
Janie Hicks
Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, has a photographic memory, and always conducts
without the score.
Janie Hicks
Atlanta, GA
Ibkco
nothing. It is just a security thing, totally nonsensical.
A good thing to have in case of a "train wreck"
Ira Kraemer
Eric Lindholm
does
>nothing. It is just a security thing, totally nonsensical.
Well, as long as we're talking about "nonsensical," I like to have the score
on the stand because I feel like it symbolizes my connection to the
composer. (It symbolizes it to _me,_ not to anyone who might be watching.)
Depending on how comfortable I am with the piece, and how immersed I am in
the performance, I will sometimes forget to turn the pages.
I think that with many conductors, conducting or rehearsing "from memory" is
a publicity stunt. It is fairly easy to beat through a piece without the
score, even when one's knowledge of the piece is superficial: I know,
because I have done it myself, back before I knew better. Recently,
however, a musician forgot his music for one rehearsal, so I had to loan him
my score and lead the rehearsal from memory, so there is some _occasional_
value in being able to do it.
Eric Lindholm
Charles E. Ehrlich
Was it you, Mr Fogel, who once posted to this newsgroup a story about
Leonard Bernstein and the Bruckner 8th? Something like he was asked why
he never performed the work, and he proceeded to sit down at the keyboard
and play the entire work from memory explaining what it was he did not
like as he went. And this was a work he never performed, did not like,
and yet he could play the whole thing at the keyboard from memory with no
preparation...
Charles Ehrlich
Cambridge, Mass
HenryFogel
>Date: Wed, 10 November 1999 08:53 PM EST
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.3.96.991110...@wilma.widomaker.com>
Yup - it was me.
Henry Fogel
Doug McDonald
I'm not a musician .... I was a viola and bassoon player in school
orchestras, but have not kept up. But ...
I'm a chemist and dabbler in design of scientific instruments. I believe
that
the ability to have a strong memory exists in many people in different
professions. I certainly can remember, for years, complete experiments
designs,
the complete plans of fairly large apparatus, and complete electronic
schematics. Once, long ago, when computers were simpler, I, on a dare,
drew the schematic of a complete PDP-8 from memory and got it right.
This is not a photographic memory things, I simply remembered the
function of every unit, and could reproduce it from that knowledge. This
I feel that conductors probably do similar sorts of things. They know
the
general outline of a piece, and how each part relates to that, in a
manner
of inrtermediate detail, like how the harmony relates to the melody, and
then each difference from teh general scheme gets put, specifically,
in some sort of add-on memory. I can do this latter sort of stuff in
great detail, and fell that I understand how Maazel could pull off
that sort of performance for Barenboim.
In other words, if I was a conductor I could conduct without a score. I
know
how that sort of stuff operates, but have absolutely zero ability to do
it,
in music, because my brain is not wired for doing it in music. Thus, I
cannot be a conductor.
Doug McDonald
Doug McDonald
Chew Kia Khang
>>Was it you, Mr Fogel, who once posted to this newsgroup a story about
>>Leonard Bernstein and the Bruckner 8th? Something like he was asked why
>>he never performed the work, and he proceeded to sit down at the keyboard
>>and play the entire work from memory explaining what it was he did not
>>like as he went.
Mr Fogel, can you share with us the main points of Bernstein's explanation
of his dislike of Bruckner 8th?
Thank you.
Kia Khang