most difficult piano pieces: Liszt?
Xah
is there a general consensus of what's the most difficult piano piece to
play? Or, perhaps the top few?
I thought Fraz Liszt's Transcendental etudes is it.
PS My favorites are #6 and #12. I have not seen any midi recording of them.
Xah
x...@xahlee.org
http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html
Kip Williams
>
> is there a general consensus of what's the most difficult piano piece to
> play? Or, perhaps the top few?
>
> I thought Fraz Liszt's Transcendental etudes is it.
>
> PS My favorites are #6 and #12. I have not seen any midi recording of them.
Other favorite contenders include
BALAKIREV: Islamey (Oriental Fantasy)
RAVEL: 'Scarbo' from Gaspard de la Nuit (reportedly, Ravel said he
was writing something 'harder than Islamey')
The discussion should be limited to known pieces of merit, otherwise
I could go and write something that's impossible by definition, or
simply describe it and spare the world its existence. (possible
example: press 87 out of the 88 keys on a piano down, with the key
not pressed being at least an octave away from the last key not
pressed each time, and play this cluster twelve times each second,
going from fff to ppp every other chord)
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
F.B.
Which just goes to show why "difficulty" is irrelevant in terms how
good a piece is. I think Satie's work is better than the piano pieces
by most others, but it's lot easier to play.
Matt P
schi...@lightlink.com
-Eric Schissel
(Liszt fan, Busoni fan, Sorabji fan, ...)
Steve Shafer
Rachmaninoff's Third Piano concerto. Whether this is true or not is unknown to
me, but that's what several pianists have told me. Could be wrong, though.
~Steve Shafer
Xah wrote:
> is there a general consensus of what's the most difficult piano piece to
> play? Or, perhaps the top few?
>
> I thought Fraz Liszt's Transcendental etudes is it.
>
> PS My favorites are #6 and #12. I have not seen any midi recording of them.
>
> Xah
> x...@xahlee.org
> http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html
Stephen Bayer
Xah <x...@xahlee.org> wrote:
>
> is there a general consensus of what's the most difficult piano piece
to
> play? Or, perhaps the top few?
>
> I thought Fraz Liszt's Transcendental etudes is it.
>
What about Weber? He is said to have had extraordinarily large hands,
and I've sometimes wondered if the neglect of his piano music stems
from the difficulty it poses for pianists of more normal anatomy.
- Steve Bayer
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mike Coldewey
it's kind of a perennial. As I recall, the discussion usually goes something
like this:
Standard rep (not a complete list):
Concertos: Brahms 2nd, Rach 3rd, Prokoviev 2nd
Solo works: Scarbo, Hammerklavier, Liszt Transcendental Etudes, Islamey
Less-often heard works: (I forget the list but it includes works by Alkan,
Bartok, and the mad Arab Al-Hazred)
Now it's time for someone to mention Schnabel's (?) remark about Mozart's
difficulty and suggest that his sonatas, while "technically easy", are very
difficult to play because of their subtlety and exposure. (I won't dispute
this, not ever having had a chance to work on the toughies detailed above,
but it would seem to me that this subtly redefines the word "difficult" from
the original intent of "Holy Moses, what a lot of notes - and so fast, too!"
to "If I don't understand, phrase and voice this section just so, it'll
spoil the exact sound I'm trying to project". At this point we're talking
about definitions, not about music).
On that "Art of the Piano" video, Cziffra's playing that Liszt Grand Galop
Chromatique, or whatever it was called, was pretty impressive. If that's
your definition of difficult works, that piece might be in the running.
Mike
Xah <x...@xahlee.org> wrote in message news:B57A388A.BB19%x...@xahlee.org...
Richard Phillips
unplayable to me.
R. Phillips
Kip Williams wrote:
> Xah wrote:
> >
> > is there a general consensus of what's the most difficult piano piece to
> > play? Or, perhaps the top few?
> >
> > I thought Fraz Liszt's Transcendental etudes is it.
> >
> > PS My favorites are #6 and #12. I have not seen any midi recording of them.
>
> Other favorite contenders include
>
> BALAKIREV: Islamey (Oriental Fantasy)
> RAVEL: 'Scarbo' from Gaspard de la Nuit (reportedly, Ravel said he
> was writing something 'harder than Islamey')
>
> The discussion should be limited to known pieces of merit, otherwise
> I could go and write something that's impossible by definition, or
> simply describe it and spare the world its existence. (possible
> example: press 87 out of the 88 keys on a piano down, with the key
> not pressed being at least an octave away from the last key not
> pressed each time, and play this cluster twelve times each second,
> going from fff to ppp every other chord)
>
schi...@lightlink.com
That's really damning Sorabji with faint praise, it seems to me, and
having heard so little of his output, too- not that it compares with
Mozart in subtlety, but there's a lot more to it musically than holy, what
a lot of notes ;), I can assure you.
(As can anyone who's heard a representative sample!)
(I would hope, anyhow.)
-Eric Schissel, who is .not. ascribing these opinions to the person who
quoted the words, just to .. well, .somebody!. ;)
D.G. Porter
>
> That's really damning Sorabji with faint praise, it seems to me, and
> having heard so little of his output, too- not that it compares with
> Mozart in subtlety, but there's a lot more to it musically than holy, what
> a lot of notes ;), I can assure you.
> (As can anyone who's heard a representative sample!)
> (I would hope, anyhow.)
Sorabji sounded to me like side after side of Ives' Study #5 played by
on acid!
D.G. Porter
>
> That's really damning Sorabji with faint praise, it seems to me, and
> having heard so little of his output, too- not that it compares with
> Mozart in subtlety, but there's a lot more to it musically than holy, what
> a lot of notes ;), I can assure you.
> (As can anyone who's heard a representative sample!)
> (I would hope, anyhow.)
No, better than trying to play Ives on acid, Sorabji sounds like Dollar
Brand improvising while on acid and meth!
Eric Schissel
>schi...@lightlink.com wrote:
>>
>> That's really damning Sorabji with faint praise, it seems to me, and
>> having heard so little of his output, too- not that it compares with
>> Mozart in subtlety, but there's a lot more to it musically than holy, what
>> a lot of notes ;), I can assure you.
>> (As can anyone who's heard a representative sample!)
>> (I would hope, anyhow.)
>Sorabji sounded to me like side after side of Ives' Study #5 played by
>on acid!
.What. by Sorabji? (SIGH.)
Or should I say "Ives" sounded like this or that? I wouldn't say ... about
Ives' first string quartet and his Concord sonata both at once, except to
say that they do have a bit in common.
-Eric Schissel, exasperated.
--
http://www.lightlink.com/schissel ICQ#7279016
standard disclaimer
"The day is committed to error and floundering; success and achievement are matters of long range."-Goethe
Eric Schissel
>schi...@lightlink.com wrote:
>>
>> That's really damning Sorabji with faint praise, it seems to me, and
>> having heard so little of his output, too- not that it compares with
>> Mozart in subtlety, but there's a lot more to it musically than holy, what
>> a lot of notes ;), I can assure you.
>> (As can anyone who's heard a representative sample!)
>> (I would hope, anyhow.)
>No, better than trying to play Ives on acid, Sorabji sounds like Dollar
>Brand improvising while on acid and meth!
Duly noted. Of course, we've heard so very much .by. him...
-Eric Schissel
John Gavin
may well be the most pianistic of any late 20th century composer.
I find myself pulling out recordings of his Nocturnes (Jardin Parfumee,
Djami, and Gulistan) quite often. The Piano Sonata #1 (as played by
Hamelin) is a thrilling and imaginative work.
Kip Williams
[useful synopsis snipped]
> On that "Art of the Piano" video, Cziffra's playing that Liszt Grand Galop
> Chromatique, or whatever it was called, was pretty impressive. If that's
> your definition of difficult works, that piece might be in the running.
It looked and sounded to me like he wasn't playing the full chords
in that. He was playing up to speed, but it wasn't as impressive as
Earl Wild playing it.
Now that I think about it, I think Horowitz's version of "Stars and
Stripes Forever" should probably be up on that short list of the
hardest pieces. What a roller coaster ride that one is!
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Mike Coldewey wrote:
> [useful synopsis snipped]
>
> > On that "Art of the Piano" video, Cziffra's playing that Liszt Grand Galop
> > Chromatique, or whatever it was called, was pretty impressive. If that's
> > your definition of difficult works, that piece might be in the running.
>
> It looked and sounded to me like he wasn't playing the full chords
> in that. He was playing up to speed, but it wasn't as impressive as
> Earl Wild playing it.
>
> Now that I think about it, I think Horowitz's version of "Stars and
> Stripes Forever" should probably be up on that short list of the
> hardest pieces. What a roller coaster ride that one is!
Seems to me that in the 60 Minutes piece (with Ed Bradley?) (a) he
claimed that he couldn't remember it any more (and then played it
anyway) and (b) they said it wasn't published; so wouldn't someone (c)
have to get permission to do so and (d) transcribe it off a recording?
(It's on the RCA Encores album, but that isn't a particularly thrilling
performance.)
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Kip Williams
I remember. He played a couple bars from the easy part.
Some fellow lately has transcribed a few hair-raising solos from
recordings, but Stars & Stripes wasn't among them. I don't know why;
it's his best.
The performance on the Encores album is a live one, and it's always
the one they play on the radio. I don't know why, as there is a
better studio recording of it on a CD with Pictures at an
Exhibition.
David McKay
> Rachmaninoff's Third Piano concerto.
Well, David Helfgott certainly makes it sound like it!
David McKay, who can't play it either!
schi...@lightlink.com
piano work (of substance, that is), I wonder how much they've actually
played and heard? Are they that quick to deny either difficulty or
substance to the works of some others I could name, I wonder...
(to my ears and mind very considerable substance indeed, and I wouldn't
mind there being about 6 more recordings of the Opus Clav, really I
wouldn't; a beautiful piece, not just a difficult one.)
-Eric Schissel
Baldric
is a musical element to be looked at as well. Many virtuosi have
confidently played all the 'hard' works in the Liszt oeuvre but
would not even dare to touch the complete Chopin Etudes - of
which Op10 No1 is devilishly hard. (Even Richter sounds clumsy
when playing it) Those who have succeeded in making it sound like
an expressive piece of music while making the playing of it
sem effortless are few and far between!
One other piece worth considering is the piano accompaniment to
Schubert's Nacht und Traum. On the surface, a simple piece for
the instrument, but getting the balance just right so that the
singer is neither overwhelmed or cruelly exposed is also very
difficult.
Baldric
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Mark Slater
their difficulty for most of the 18th and 19th century. Bull was an Elizabethan
composer. The piece is still rarely recorded. The other piece in this genre
called "Wooddy Cocke" by Giles Farnaby is equally as difficult.
Mark Slater
Per aures ad animum
"Through the ears to the spirit"
D.G. Porter
>
> As to those pianists who regard the Rach 3 as the most difficult
> piano work (of substance, that is), I wonder how much they've actually
> played and heard? Are they that quick to deny either difficulty or
> substance to the works of some others I could name, I wonder...
When I saw the movie "Shine," particularly the John Gielgud scenes, I
knew exactly what his character was on to. These concepts may be "new"
to a student but they are the norm for anyone who makes a successful
career out of interpreting music.
(Right now I'm reviewing the critical edition for Ives' "Four
Transcritpions from 'Emerson,'" edited by Thomas Brodhead, and it's
taken me back to the reconstuction of the Emerson Piano Concerto -- one
of the most difficult concertos there is by any measure. Rachy 3 has
more tunes and much more "conventional" music. "Emerson" is a real
nut-buster. Ives and Rachmaninoff has these huge hands capable of huge
chords.)
> (to my ears and mind very considerable substance indeed, and I wouldn't
> mind there being about 6 more recordings of the Opus Clav, really I
> wouldn't; a beautiful piece, not just a difficult one.)
> -Eric Schissel
But there's so little contrast! It just goes on and on with no change
in style or language or substance!
Peter T. Daniels
> One other piece worth considering is the piano accompaniment to
> Schubert's Nacht und Traum. On the surface, a simple piece for
> the instrument, but getting the balance just right so that the
> singer is neither overwhelmed or cruelly exposed is also very
> difficult.
Ah, but that's quite a different kettle of fish: there aren't many
concert pianists who are superb accompanists, and vice versa. (Gerald
Moore and Benjamin Britten, for instance, hated playing solos -- note
that Britten wrote next to nothing for piano solo.)
A friend of mine in Chicago is a professional accompanist (assistant
conductor at both the Lyric and the Met, which is a title they give the
pianists who "prepare" the singers -- he specialized in the modern
repertoire in Chicago, and even appeared on stage as the honkytonk
pianist in *Wozzeck*). When our chorus received a baby grand rehearsal
piano as a donation, after it was restored he played a Schubert
impromptu after our first rehearsal with it -- and he said that
performance for about 60 friends was the first time he had played a solo
in "public" in something like 20 years.
(He performed in a Brahms 2-piano work [I think the piano quintet
arrangement], and even a Mozart concerto, and was superb at Lieder
recitals and choral concerts, and I turned for him when he was 4th piano
in Les Noces, but he would *never* appear alone on a stage.)
BTW James Levine is a superb accompanist -- and I don't think it's
coincidental that he's so good at operas.
Peter T. Daniels
> (Right now I'm reviewing the critical edition for Ives' "Four
> Transcritpions from 'Emerson,'" edited by Thomas Brodhead, and it's
> taken me back to the reconstuction of the Emerson Piano Concerto -- one
> of the most difficult concertos there is by any measure. Rachy 3 has
> more tunes and much more "conventional" music. "Emerson" is a real
> nut-buster. Ives and Rachmaninoff has these huge hands capable of huge
> chords.)
In the Art of Piano video, Moisewitsch (I think it was) mentioned Rach.
was 6'6" (these days, of course, he'd be Rock. (-er, that is, a
pitcher)). How tall was Ives?
Eric Schissel
>> (to my ears and mind very considerable substance indeed, and I wouldn't
>> mind there being about 6 more recordings of the Opus Clav, really I
>> wouldn't; a beautiful piece, not just a difficult one.)
>> -Eric Schissel
>But there's so little contrast! It just goes on and on with no change
>in style or language or substance!
That this is your opinion by now fails to surprise me; I can only advise
others to give this work, and others, a listen themselves. The Opus Clav
is divided into many sections of clearly demarcated content and treatment,
making me wonder if you have heard it more than once; his shorter works
tend to focus more on one particular mode of expression, but even then
are by no means lacking in internal diversity (I think of the stark,
chordal sections of the mostly more fluid and lyrical nocturne-like
pieces played by Habermann on his wonderful Elan CD, for instance.)
-Eric Schissel, who is beginning to wonder where you get this stuff...
rasiel
of The Hardest Piece here's how i'd rate them by composer:
js bach: goldberg variations
mozart: 3rd movement of piano concerto no. 9
beethoven: hammerklavier
chopin: piano sonata no. 1, etude op. 10 no. 2 (generally
acknowledged to be the hardest of all opp. 10&25)
schubert: ??, impromptu in Ab?
schumann: toccata op. 7
liszt: transcendental etudes, piano sonata in b minor, many
others
alkan: pretty much anything he wrote
brahms: 2nd piano concerto
tchaikovsky: piano concerto no. 1
ravel: scarbo
mendelssohn: fugue in g minor?
rachmaninoff: 3rd piano cto.
bala.: islamey
debussy: cathedrale engloutie, etudes, others
Ras
ras...@rasiel.com
http://www.rasiel.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
CYRIL
Piece of Piano Music" is the enormous Opus Clavicembilisticum by
Sorabji.
There is a recording of it on the Alturas Label, number AIR-CD-9075(4).
I have a copy and apart from being one if not THE longest single piece
of piano music, it is most certainly one of the most difficult.
The performance on the aforementioned Disc by the late John Ogdon is
something to be heard.
Cyril Warnes
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
schi...@lightlink.com
briefer ones, from several seconds to several minutes to the 10-30 minute
works on the Elan CD (for instance) to a number of one-to-four hour
works (the piano symphonies, toccatas, etc., the Opus Clav which is now
also available on BIS and which in Sorabji's own public performance some
years back was apparently, I think, somewhat shorter than in Ogdon's
recording- by some years back I mean the 1930s or so, mind, well before
my time as I was born in 1969!), - and the Piano Variations that last 8
hours and I probably shall not hear but should like to...
-Eric Schissel
Robert Glass
<rasielN...@rasiel.com.invalid> wrote:
>getting back to the always-interesting and often rehashed subject
>of The Hardest Piece here's how i'd rate them by composer:
<snip>
>schubert: ??, impromptu in Ab?
Isn't the "Wanderer" Fantasy generally considered Schubert's most difficult
piano work?
Cheers,
RG
--
Robert Glass
Remove "harlech" from my address to reach me by e-mail
2. excès
exclure la raison, n'admettre que la raison.
--Pascal, Pensées
rasiel
..
>
>>schubert: ??, impromptu in Ab?
>
>Isn't the "Wanderer" Fantasy generally considered Schubert's
most difficult
>piano work?
>
>Cheers,
>
>RG
>
>--
>Robert Glass
>Remove "harlech" from my address to reach me by e-mail
>
>
>2. excès
>exclure la raison, n'admettre que la raison.
>--Pascal, Pensées
>
>
you might be right. i love the second mvt of this piece (it's up
on my web site for download too (shameless plug)).
also, i did a little post-digging and found i'd meant the
preludes & fugues of mendelssohn would probably be the most
difficult works of that composer.
Biochemistry guest
for his work, which is pretty amazing, as I usually don't like piano
music at all <ducks slingstones, arrows and overripe fruit>. I have
heard that it is very difficult, and wasn't performed for many years
after his death. Was that because it is hard, or is it only an
uncultured taste like mine that doesn't realize how shallow it is?
David
rasiel
>How does Alkan rate on the difficulty scale? I have quite a
fondness
>for his work, which is pretty amazing, as I usually don't like
piano
>music at all <ducks slingstones, arrows and overripe fruit>.
it's been said that alkan's piano music is at the very edge of
what is humanly possible to play. i also heard that his music was
so difficult to play that it intimidated even liszt himself. now
that's saying something!!
I
have
>heard that it is very difficult, and wasn't performed for many
years
>after his death. Was that because it is hard, or is it only an
>uncultured taste like mine that doesn't realize how shallow it
is?
>
>David
the tunes he wrote weren't very catchy. he wasn't the world's
greatest composer to be sure. even though i've heard a number of
his works, for example, i can't think off the top of my head a
single piece whose theme i could hum or whistle. still, i like
his music for the sheer virtuosic prowess. the guy must have been
hell on the keys!
Biochemistry guest
> the tunes he wrote weren't very catchy. he wasn't the world's
> greatest composer to be sure. even though i've heard a number of
> his works, for example, i can't think off the top of my head a
> single piece whose theme i could hum or whistle.
What about "the song of the mad woman by the seaside"? It sounds a bit
like "is paris burning?", but rather weirder. I have been known to
whistle that (when alone ;-).
rasiel
yeah, this is my favorite tune of his. to me it sounds more like
good sountrack music to a house on haunted hill-type flick.
schi...@lightlink.com
the first movement of the concerto for solo piano ranks high... (Alkan that is.)
-Eric Schissel
Benjamin Phillips
(first set of Impromptus), while not being as technically difficult as the
Wanderer (provided one's hands are of a sufficient size), is musically
speaking somewhat challenging.
CYRIL
George Czyfra which is incredible. He makes seem more simple than a
five finger exercise. The announcer mentiond that Czyfra had altered
the fingering !!!!!
Cyril
In article <05ea3800...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, Baldric
<rcashman...@abpat.qld.edu.au.invalid> wrote:
> Surely difficulty doesn't encompass technical mastery only. There
> is a musical element to be looked at as well. Many virtuosi have
> confidently played all the 'hard' works in the Liszt oeuvre but
> would not even dare to touch the complete Chopin Etudes - of
> which Op10 No1 is devilishly hard. (Even Richter sounds clumsy
> when playing it) Those who have succeeded in making it sound like
> an expressive piece of music while making the playing of it
> sem effortless are few and far between!
> One other piece worth considering is the piano accompaniment to
> Schubert's Nacht und Traum. On the surface, a simple piece for
> the instrument, but getting the balance just right so that the
> singer is neither overwhelmed or cruelly exposed is also very
> difficult.
> Baldric
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *