The Most Evil Music
Mike Quigley
I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
My nominees:
Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin -- VERY unpleasant (of course, it fits the
subject matter well), exudes evil at every bar. Sounds like Bartok was
snorting Drano when he wrote it!!
R. Strauss' Elektra -- some of the harmonies in this opera are truly ghastly.
Makes me feel like someone is gnawing at my brains!
Josh A. Goldfoot
: OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
: I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
: skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
Penderecki's _Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima_ was meant to instill
feelings just like this. He has something like 54 string instruments
playing very loudly in their extreme upper registers.. it has to be heard
to be understood. But it gave me images of people peeling off their
horribly burned skin.
..............................................................................
.Josh.A..Goldfoot.........jgfoot@minerva.cis.yale.edu.......,;:-'
Michael J Valinis
hour live TV horror show called "Tales of Tomorrow." One of their most
memorable series included "Cocoon", "Return of the Cocoon", "Revenge of the
Cocoon"... you get the idea... about a bunch of giant cocoons (no surprise
there) which burst out of a fallen meteorite deep in the jungles of darkest
Africa. The cocoons promptly hatch out a bunch of invisible, dog-sized
blood-sucking insects, who then proceed to drain the cast (a well deserved
honor, IMHO). All this to the tune of Bartok's "Music for Stringed
Instruments, Percussion, and Celeste"!!!!! To this day, I can't hear that
piece without thinking that there are a bunch of giant, invisible fleas
out there trying to get me! Would someone please pass the Raid? :-)
Daniel Gottlieb
Quigley) wrote:
>
> OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
>
> I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
> skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>
Copland's Third Symphony; he said that it was to symbolize the
discovery/realization of the true horrors of WWII. Pretty amazingly scary
when heard in context, and even without the entire piece, a very cool
chord.
Daniel
Aaron Brockett
In this vein: An organization on campus sponsors a yearly festival of
'schlock' films. I attended one of them this year; it was a truly terrible
horror film called 'The Brain-eaters'. The film consists mainly of these
cute furry things umping on to people's backs and sucking their brains out.
Anyway, all of the supposedly horrifying action took place with
Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony as background music. It was an interesting
touch.
--Aaron Brockett
Anand C. Patel
that definitely evokes some darker thoughts.
AC
--
Anand C. Patel |"We separate past and future and find that time is an amalgam
SigVR Chairman | of both. We separate good and evil and find that mind is an
pa...@cs.uiuc.edu | amalgam of both. To understand, we must grasp the whole."
(217) 367-4624 | -- Isaac Asimov
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Justin Gram Paulson
> OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
>
> I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
> skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>
Ralph Shapey's "Incantations".
*******************************************************************************
* Justin Paulson *
* Swarthmore College jpau...@cc.swarthmore.edu *
* Swarthmore, PA 19081-1397 *
*******************************************************************************
With regard to his 14th Symphony:
"I don't protest against death in it, I protest against those butchers who
execute people...you can and must protest against violent death."
--Dmitri Shostakovich
*******************************************************************************
Kimo B. Yap
Margaret Mikulska
>Mike Quigley (Mike_Q...@mindlink.bc.ca) wrote:
>: OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
>
>: I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>: skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>
>Penderecki's _Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima_ was meant to instill
>feelings just like this. He has something like 54 string instruments
>playing very loudly in their extreme upper registers.. it has to be heard
>to be understood. But it gave me images of people peeling off their
>horribly burned skin.
Ah, the power of Urban Legends and good PR! Once again, this piece
was originally called "Music for 52 [maybe 48 - I forget] Strings"
and wasn't meant to instill anything of the kind you mention.
The current title was slapped on later - and indeed, the work sells
better than other compositions by Penderecki from the same period, but
having less memorable titles.
-Margaret
Roger Lustig
>Hagen's call to the vassals in Act II of Gotterdammerung.-kby
I don't care *how* good Salminen is. When I saw him standing on the
top of Gibichhall, shouting "Waffen! Starke Waffen! Gute Waffen!"
I could only think, "Wuerstchen! Heisse Wuerstchen! Frische Wuerstchen!"
With many apologies,
Roger
Robert Parson
>
> I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
> skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>
--
Robert
Ray Ubinger
Ray Ubinger, Durham NC USA
internet: r...@acpub.duke.edu
Stuart LeBlanc
>make their skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
a few of my favorites:
Massige Achtel (the second piece) from Schonberg's Drei
Klavierstucke Op. 11
The Anfortas Wound (middle mvt again) from Adam's Harmonielehre
Peter Maxwell Davies Eight songs for a Mad King
Of course, there is the piece for infantryman (I forget the composer)
which consists of blowing up the audience with a real handgrenade.
Though it fortunately has not yet been recorded or even premiered.
Stuart LeBlanc
Guitar Instructor
MTSU Dept. of Music
leb...@knuth.mtsu.edu
Klaus Gaarder FNI
Try out:
Gyoergy Ligetis "Lux eterna" and "Requiem"! MAgnificent music, not to be played after dark if
you're a bit off balance.....>8O
Klaus
Gene Lavergne
Four other entries: (1-Richard Wagner) the beginning of the
second act of Parsifal when Klingsor calls for Kundry; (2-Alban
Berg) the music that follows the "Nein, Nein, ..." when Jack the
Ripper kills Lulu in the third act of Lulu; (3-Richard Strauss)
the music when Herod imagines he is hearing the beating of wings
in the wind; and (4-John Williams) the music written for Raiders
of the Lost Ark for the scene in the snake pit and when the angel
changes into the rotted corpse during the opening of the ark.
| g...@bnr.ca (Gene A. Lavergne) | In all of opera, I most identify |
| ESN 444-4842 / (214) 684-4842 | with the character of Elektra. |
| PO Box 851986, Richardson, TX | That often worries me. |
| USA 75085-1986 | Opinions expressed here are mine and not BNR's. |
ROBERT HUDSON
My vote goes to Shostakovich's 13th and 14th symphonies.
The 13th ('Babi Yar') deals with the Holocaust and anti-semitism
in Stalinist Russia. (Actually, this is only the first movement
I'm speaking of.)
The 14th is a setting of poems dealing with death, sort of in
the spirit of Mussorgsky's "Songs and Dances of Death," which
was orchestrated by Shostakovich at some point in his career.
It's interesting to mark during this period Shostakovich's
musical emphasis change from societal oppression to a morbid
fear and fascination with death, probably due to his own
failing health.
-Rob H.-
Robert Coren
You *should* apologize, Roger! You've ruined that scene for me
forever. :-)
--Robert
Steve Apter
Bengt Hambreaus' _Canvas with Mirrors_ for organ and tape. This is
included on the MAP Composer Portrait disk devoted to BH.
Ken Iisaka
|> OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
|>
|> I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
|> skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
Crumb: Black Angels
Antheil: Ballet Mechanique (1927)
--
Ken Iisaka (kii...@is.morgan.com)
Information Services, Morgan Stanley & Co. Inc.
1 Pierrepont Plaza, Brooklyn, New York 11201
Bus: +1 718 754 2927 Home: +1 718 852 4943 Pager: +1 212 812 5027
Edgar Erwin
Ligeti is not perverse enough to write scary music and call it `Requiem' or
`Lux Aeterna'! Both of those pieces are lovely, suggesting other-worldly calm
and beauty. Perhaps you are a bit off balance..... :-)
(That's not intended as an insult.)
Margaret Mikulska writes
> >Mike Quigley (Mike_Q...@mindlink.bc.ca) wrote:
> >Penderecki's _Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima_ was meant to instill
> >feelings just like this. ...it gave me images of people peeling off their
> >horribly burned skin.
>
> Ah, the power of Urban Legends and good PR! Once again, this piece
> was originally called "Music for 52 [maybe 48 - I forget] Strings"
> and wasn't meant to instill anything of the kind you mention.
Thanks for the info Margaret. Perhaps I'll finally be able to appreciate this
piece. It never lived up to its title for me. I just couldn't connect the
music in any way with an atomic explosion or the aftermath. The piece is a
little erie, but its no Hiroshima.
Stephen J Ibendahl
These pieces may not be evil, but they do contain very haunting melodies and
can almost scare you at times!!!
Mozart, Piano Concerto No. 20, 1st movement..
Schubert, Unfinished Symphony, 1st movement..
Steve
Eric Schissel
>Massige Achtel (the second piece) from Schonberg's Drei
>Klavierstucke Op. 11
Stenhammar's 4th string quartet, too...)
>Of course, there is the piece for infantryman (I forget the composer)
>which consists of blowing up the audience with a real handgrenade.
>Though it fortunately has not yet been recorded or even premiered.
low intensity warfare and 'the peace process'- and who can forget
'surgical' strikes?) Let it never be played again.
-Eric Schissel
Eric Schissel
The composer seems to have thought it evil enough, I've heard.
-Eric Schissel
>
>--
>Robert
Mark Basinski
>
> Of course, Richard Strauss' Elektra is the epitome of evil music.
>
discovered some even scarier/creepier music in Ginastera's opera "Bomarzo."
The overture/introduction is starts off right away this way, and since the
main character is having flashbacks of his evil and perverse life, and
then dies, well, the whole thing is pretty creepy..
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Basinski Internet: basi...@biosci.arizona.edu
Braden Mechley
>: OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
>: I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>: skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
Well, some people may object to me casting in a name like this one among the
company of Bartok and my beloved Richard Strauss, but I'd nominate Stephen
Sondheim for certain moments in SWEENEY TODD that are creepy. The sequence at
the end with the Beggar Woman running around, fixated on the Beadle and un-
knowingly going to her death at the hands of her own husband ... it gets me
every time.
To bring Richard Strauss back into the matter, the much-hyped effect of having
the double-bass players pinch a note (B-flat) at the top of their compass to
simulate Salome's anxiety and longing at the beginning of the final scene of
SALOME ("Es ist kein Laut zu vernehmen," et seq.) is suitably chilling, as is
the repeated dissonant chord in the quiet ending ("Hat es nach Blut geschmeckt?
Nein -- doch es schmeckte vielleicht nach Liebe ...") which Ernest Newman has
designated as symbolizing Salome's mental collapse ... truly chilling.
Braden Mechley
Department of Classics
University of Washington
Jyrki J Wahlstedt
>I don't care *how* good Salminen is. When I saw him standing on the
>top of Gibichhall, shouting "Waffen! Starke Waffen! Gute Waffen!"
>I could only think, "Wuerstchen! Heisse Wuerstchen! Frische Wuerstchen!"
Hmm! How about other singers, do they produce the same effect?
--
!
! Jyrki.W...@hut.fi
! Home: Lansankallionkuja 2 B 12 phone:+358-0-52 46 81
! 02630 Espoo
! Finland
!
! Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.
!
Jonathan Dixon
>|> OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
>|>
>|> I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>|> skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
My vote is for John Williams "Imperial March" (from Star Wars). Played
properly, this is quite sinister sounding.
Jon Dixon
Bradford Kellogg
In article <24...@mindlink.bc.ca>, Mike_Q...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley) writes:
|> OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
|>
|> I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
|> skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
There are a few that come to mind. The first parts of Stravinsky's Firebird
genuinely frightened me as a young child, partly because all I knew was the
title, and the music has a quality that is dark, ominous, and foreboding. I
imagined a lone traveler in a valley at night, with a hideous winged beast
sneaking up the far side of a bare mountain, and the beast suddenly swoops
out from behind the mountain and out of the sky, to attack the hapless
traveler. Even after knowing the story, and seeing the ballet, this vision
lingers with me.
Another is the first section of Strauss' Death and Transfiguration, where
a truly startling transition occurs bewteen a slow, lugubrious mood and a
sudden increase in tension and energy in the form of an instrumental shriek
of mortal terror.
Another is the Hall of the Mountain King from Grieg's Peer Gynt. Here is a
tension filled darkness that builds into a terrifying cascade.
Of course, I cannot leave out Rachmaninov's Isle of the Dead, an unrelenting
descent into the stygian depths of despair and death.
Also, Night of the Electric Insects from Crumb's Black Angels has an
intensely visceral quality, where you can feel buzzing and stinging
hornets attacking your ears.
Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima falls in here as well.
Listening to this makes you feel your flesh burning.
Gee, what a fun thread this is!
- BK
Bradford Kellogg
But could the same title have been "slapped on" to any of his other works
and been as effective? This is not a rhetorical question, BTW.
- BK
Don Pajerek
>: OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
>
>: I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>: skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>
>feelings just like this. He has something like 54 string instruments
>playing very loudly in their extreme upper registers.. it has to be heard
>to be understood. But it gave me images of people peeling off their
>horribly burned skin.
>
Would it still if Penderecki had retained the original title 'Study for Strings'?
>...............................................................................
>..Josh.A..Goldfoot.........jgfoot@minerva.cis.yale.edu.......,;:-'
Don Pajerek
Standard disclaimers apply.
Don Pajerek
>OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
>
>I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>
Schoenberg, 'A Survivor from Warsaw'.
Eric Schissel
>OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
>I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>My nominees:
>Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin -- VERY unpleasant (of course, it fits the
>subject matter well), exudes evil at every bar. Sounds like Bartok was
>snorting Drano when he wrote it!!
>R. Strauss' Elektra -- some of the harmonies in this opera are truly ghastly.
>Makes me feel like someone is gnawing at my brains!
I mentioned Prokofiev's 3rd symphony before- I'll go whole hog and
nominate the whole Fiery Angel.
-Eric Schissel
Jeff Winslow
>The huge ultra-dissonant chord toward the end of the last movement of
>Copland's Third Symphony; he said that it was to symbolize the
>discovery/realization of the true horrors of WWII. Pretty amazingly scary
>when heard in context,
Hmm - I haven't heard that one. I'll have to give it a listen, to see how
it compares with the one in the Adagio in Mahler's 10th, or Salome's orgasm
(or is it Herod's disgust?) just before the end of Strauss's opera.
Jeff Winslow
Jon Bell
middle of the first movement of Nielsen's Sixth... the one that Robert
Simpson claims represents Nielsen's heart attack. Every time I hear it
my spine jangles the way it does when I manage to screech chalk on the
blackboard. The effect is emphazised by the soothing harmonies which follow.
--
Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu> Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA
Knox Carey
Call me old-fashioned, but Pierrot Lunaire still scares me silly if I
listen to it too late at night. Unfortunately, the music is not really
effective emotionally unless it is night...
I think it's the sprechstimme. That eerie, disembodied sound gets me
every time. The way most "singers" go flat at the ends of phrases just
makes my skin crawl.
Certain parts of Wozzeck (namely, those parts during which and after
which Marie is murdered) have the same effect, but I'm sure that a lot of
that comes from knowledge of the drama. I don't think the music itself is
inherently evil.
-knox
Klaus Gaarder FNI
|> In article <24...@mindlink.bc.ca>, Mike_Q...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley) writes...
|> >OK, time for yet another interesting (hopefully) thread!
|> >
|> >I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
|> >skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
|> >
|>
|>
|>
|> The 13th ('Babi Yar') deals with the Holocaust and anti-semitism
|> in Stalinist Russia. (Actually, this is only the first movement
|> I'm speaking of.)
|>
|> The 14th is a setting of poems dealing with death, sort of in
|> the spirit of Mussorgsky's "Songs and Dances of Death," which
|> was orchestrated by Shostakovich at some point in his career.
|>
|> It's interesting to mark during this period Shostakovich's
|> musical emphasis change from societal oppression to a morbid
|> fear and fascination with death, probably due to his own
|> failing health.
|>
|>
|> -Rob H.-
I will have to strongly disagree on putting Shostakovitch's 13th and 14th symphonies in this
'horror' category! Although describing tragic events, they do not give an impression of
scaring the listener. However, they do tend to give an impression of infathomable grief!
By the way, they are also among the absolute masterpieces in the symphony business! The use
of the human voice with a large orchestra (13th) in symphonic works is parallelled only in
Mahler.
--
__@
_`\<,_
(*)/ (*) Claudio Caputti
+d+o+n+`+t++u+s+e++y+o+u+r++h+e+a+d+,++u+s+e++a++h+e+l+m+e+t++#++++++++++++++++
-----------------------------
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| Norwegian Telecom Research|
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| N-2007 Kjeller |
| NORWAY |
-----------------------------
Free will - the result of chaotic amplification of quantum events in the brain.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Topi Ylinen
tes:
>Hagen's call to the vassals in Act II of Gotterdammerung.-kby
>
Why not?
Quite a lot of Wagner's music has a rather "malignant" aura about it...
I could also think of the Immolation Scene (until Hagen get's drowned, after
that the music gets very harmonious and eventually very sweet),
Wotan's summoning of Loge (at the end of Die Walkuere), the destruction of
Klingsor's Castle, some of Fafner's music etc etc. Wagner really knew how
to evoke a bit frightening/forbidding ("evil") atmosphere.
I could also nominate these examples from not-so-modern music:
*Holst: The Planets (esp. Mars, of course)
*Stravinsky: Le Sacre du Printemps (some really chilling passages there)
*Moussorgsky: Night on a Bare Mountain and some of the Pictures (esp. the
Hut of Baba Yaga)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Topi Ylinen f1t...@kielo.uta.fi "That that is is." (W. Shakespeare)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Paulo Martel
>In article <1sjtv7...@gap.caltech.edu> k...@cco.caltech.edu (Kimo B. Yap) writes:
>>Hagen's call to the vassals in Act II of Gotterdammerung.-kby
>I don't care *how* good Salminen is. When I saw him standing on the
>top of Gibichhall, shouting "Waffen! Starke Waffen! Gute Waffen!"
>I could only think, "Wuerstchen! Heisse Wuerstchen! Frische Wuerstchen!"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Roger,
would you mind translating that last bit ? For us ignorants who know German
from opera librettos only...
Or perhaps not... I have a bad feeling that you have just ruined that scene
for good :-)
Thanks,
|)
|aulo
--
|) /\/\ | e-mail: mar...@marvin.mr.sintef.no | |
|aulo / \artel | phone: +47-7-997700 |
MR-Center, SINTEF | FAX: +47-7-997708 | Ceci n'est pas
N-7034 Trondheim, NORWAY | | une pipe.
Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789
[ Evil music ]
>
>Certain parts of Wozzeck (namely, those parts during which and after
>which Marie is murdered) have the same effect, but I'm sure that a lot of
>that comes from knowledge of the drama. I don't think the music itself is
>inherently evil.
>
>-knox
Arvo Part's Second Symphony(!) has some pretty mean sections, perhaps
surprising in view of his serene (dull ;=) ) later works. At one point,
a brief baroque-esque melody is brutally assaulted by *noise*, of which
Xenakis would be proud. There are similar moments in some of Schnittke's
works too...
Bill
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison, \ / "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX >-----------< reality itself" |
| CHE...@JETSON.BITNET / \ V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
Edgar Erwin
> (Paulo Martel) writes:
> > (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
> >>I don't care *how* good Salminen is. When I saw him standing on the
> >>top of Gibichhall, shouting "Waffen! Starke Waffen! Gute Waffen!"
> >>I could only think, "Wuerstchen! Heisse Wuerstchen! Frische Wuerstchen!"
> >would you mind translating that last bit ? For us ignorants who know German
> >from opera librettos only...
>
> sorry, I will *not* translate that. Any German dictionary will have those
> words; and a literal translation will do nicely.
>
> Sorry to be unhelpful as well as Philistine...
Those who know German only from opera librettos may have a hard time
translating that. They would need to know that `ue' is a `u' with an umlaut,
and that for Heisse, they would need to look up `Heiss' with no `e' and the
`ss' replaced by a `beta'-like character. Furthermore, small German
dictionaries wouldn't list `Wuerstchen' at all, so they would need to know that
`-chen' means `little'. That's alot to ask someone to learn for a simple joke!
Someone with knowledge of English only from a dictionary might equate
Philistine with (Milton) Babbitt (a crass prosaic often priggish individual
guided by material rather than intellectual or artistic values)! (Websters 9th
Collegiate Dictionary, not my definition of Babbitt!)
Still, I won't translate the joke either!
Roger Lustig
>ro...@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>In article <1sjtv7...@gap.caltech.edu> k...@cco.caltech.edu (Kimo B. Yap) writes:
>>>Hagen's call to the vassals in Act II of Gotterdammerung.-kby
>>I don't care *how* good Salminen is. When I saw him standing on the
>>top of Gibichhall, shouting "Waffen! Starke Waffen! Gute Waffen!"
>>I could only think, "Wuerstchen! Heisse Wuerstchen! Frische Wuerstchen!"
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>would you mind translating that last bit ? For us ignorants who know German
>from opera librettos only...
>Or perhaps not... I have a bad feeling that you have just ruined that scene
>for good :-)
Nope, sorry, I will *not* translate that. If you wish to ruin that scene,
you will have to do it yourself. Any German dictionary will have those
words; and a literal translation will do nicely.
Sorry to be unhelpful as well as Philistine...
Roger
Mikko Reinikainen
>I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
Schnittke: Faust Cantata, part "Es geschah..." for mezzo, orchestra
and chorus. (BIS CD-437; the music is also included on BIS free
sampler BIS SA-1 available with the 1993 catalogue)
This is really the most diabolic piece of music I've ever heard, and
if you understand the text (or read it from the booklet) the effect
grows even more!
Mikko Reinikainen
Finland
--
Mikko Reinikainen
k22...@kyyppari.hkkk.fi
Helsinki School Of Economics and Business Administration
Helsinki University/Faculty Of Law
KNIGHT WILLIAM R
in c minor (no. 24, K. 491 I think) especially the beginning.
Margaret Mikulska
>
>>In article <1sjtv7...@gap.caltech.edu> k...@cco.caltech.edu (Kimo B. Yap) writes:
>>>Hagen's call to the vassals in Act II of Gotterdammerung.-kby
>
>>I don't care *how* good Salminen is. When I saw him standing on the
>>top of Gibichhall, shouting "Waffen! Starke Waffen! Gute Waffen!"
>>I could only think, "Wuerstchen! Heisse Wuerstchen! Frische Wuerstchen!"
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Roger,
>
>would you mind translating that last bit ? For us ignorants who know German
>from opera librettos only...
>
>Or perhaps not... I have a bad feeling that you have just ruined that scene
>for good :-)
Yes he has! In this case, ignorance is bliss. I'll never be able to
listen to this scene without laughing my head off ...! especially that
I've been to Germany on several occasions ...
-Margaret
STEPHEN WEISS
>I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
1. Although I normally love Ligeti's _Nouvelle Aventures_, ensemble Die
Reihe's most recent(?) recording of it was terrifying.
2. In one recording I heard of Poulenc's _Dialogue_Des_Carmelites_, the
execution scene was absolutely disturbing. The guillotine was particularly
loud which was effective in it own right, but upon hearing the *glk* from
the very last nun when she died, I was astounded!
3. Messaien's _Chronochromie_ I have discovered is not music to listen to
on acid... :-)
4. There's some really ill humour in Rossini's _Stabat_Mater_ in the
charming neo-Mozartean way in which he treats the idea of Mary's soul being
ripped apart as she watched her son alone dying in agony :-P
Braden Mechley
>Hmm - I haven't heard that one. I'll have to give it a listen, to see how
>it compares with the one in the Adagio in Mahler's 10th, or Salome's orgasm
>(or is it Herod's disgust?) just before the end of Strauss's opera.
Ernst Newman calls this chord the symbol of Salome's mental collapse, and I'd
cast my vote that way -- after all, Herod's problems are usually characterized
by far more agitated figurations in the orchestra.
Mark Culotta
Still, I won't translate the joke either!
This is cruel!
Mark
--
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Software Engineer | uunet!centerline!mkc
CenterLine Software Inc. |
10 Fawcett St. | (617) 498-3311 (voice)
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian R Jenkins
the 3rd movement of Shostakovichs' 8th symphony - that mechanical rhythm
of the tanks and machinery on the battlefield - sends shivers down my spine
and
the 3rd (or is it the 4th) movement of Prokofievs 3rd symphony where the
melody floats about and is abrubtly interrupted by sharp loud chords - don't
listen to this one on headphones on a nightime walk !
Ian
--
"I'm not going to die, I've just bought a new pair of trousers"
Havergal Brian, aged 92
Ian Jenkins JANET: i...@uk.ac.rl.inf
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, UUCP: ..!mcsun!ukc!rlinf!irj
Chilton, Didcot, Oxon. OX11 0QX.
Bob Devereaux
is it? Harmonically harrowing w/some sort of low soft bass underpinnings.
(2) From the early 60's TV show, One Step Beyond, an episode called The
Voodoo Rhapsody, about a pianist stealing(?) & playing a piece which makes
him do evil things. Thirty years later, I can still hear how it opens.
At the time, I thought it a very frightening piece.
Robert Devereaux
bob...@hpfela.fc.hp.com
Fort Collins, CO
(303) 229-3423
Deryk Barker
Or the climax of the first movement of the Resurrection, or the 'cry
of disgust' at the opening of the finale thereof?
--
Real: Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dba...@camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
Robert Parson
c038...@utarlg.uta.edu (ROBERT HUDSON) writes:
> |> My vote goes to Shostakovich's 13th and 14th symphonies.
> |>
>
> I will have to strongly disagree on putting Shostakovitch's 13th and 14th
> symphonies in this
> 'horror' category! Although describing tragic events, they do not give an
> impression of
> scaring the listener. However, they do tend to give an impression of
> infathomable grief!
>
Certainly the 13th, and most of the 14th, are "tragic" rather than
"horrifying".
Some parts of the 14th do depict sheer terror, however - the 8th
song (esp. the multiply divided strings at the end) and the 11th.
I think the 10th song ranks among the bleakest ever composed. Right
up there with the end of "Winterreise".
Robert
Chris Brewster
Well, if we're going to talk about single chords, how about the one in the
middle of the first movement of Nielsen's Sixth... the one that Robert
Simpson claims represents Nielsen's heart attack. ...
To tie this with another thread, there's also a ball-buster of a chord
in Mahler 10, in the first mvt. Mahler sits on the chord as if to let
you know he really means it--it's not a misprint, but rather a moment of
greatest anguish. This strikes me as Mahler's closest approach to
letting tonality collapse, and I wish there could have been a Mahler 11,
composed after, say, 1913.
Chris Brewster E-MAIL ADDRESS: c...@cray.com
Robert Coren
Oh, nice, Roger... you make sure to ruin it for those of us who *do*
read German, and then develop scruples when someone asks you to
translate.
:-)
Chris Brewster
>would you mind translating that last bit?
>Or perhaps not... I have a bad feeling that you have just ruined that
>scene for good :-)
Yes he has! In this case, ignorance is bliss. I'll never be able to
listen to this scene without laughing my head off ...! especially that
I've been to Germany on several occasions ...
Margaret-- you *do* listen to the words, after all!
sjh
>Mike_Q...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley) writes:
>>
>> I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>> skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>>
>
> Scriabin's 6th piano sonata. Not "evil", perhaps, but certainly eerie.
>
Yes, this is the one I _would_ call "evil". The composer, as steeped in
occultism as he was, refused to perform this piece because he felt it would
summon up demons if he did. It is probably the most eerie of all his later
works, all of which are pretty eerie. HOWEVER, it does NOT fill the bill of
making me "want to vomit in terror!".! In that category, I would place
Barry Manilow's "I Write the Songs (that make the whole world die)" right
near the top of MY list.
On a more serious note, one might try the Concerto for Ondes Martinot and
Orchestra by Andre Jolivet. The Onde can make some mighty scarry sounds,
and this concerto is full of dark nuances.
sjh
>>I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that
>>make their skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>Peter Maxwell Davies Eight songs for a Mad King
Yep! This one will do it FOR SURE!
>Of course, there is the piece for infantryman (I forget the composer)
>which consists of blowing up the audience with a real handgrenade.
>Though it fortunately has not yet been recorded or even premiered.
I'd like to see this work performed (on VIDEO!)
Jeff Beer
Try the last movement of Messiaen's Chronochromie
you'll like it.
Jeff
Eric Schissel
>In <24...@mindlink.bc.ca> Mike_Q...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley) writes:
>>I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>>skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>Schnittke: Faust Cantata, part "Es geschah..." for mezzo, orchestra
>and chorus. (BIS CD-437; the music is also included on BIS free
>sampler BIS SA-1 available with the 1993 catalogue)
>This is really the most diabolic piece of music I've ever heard, and
>if you understand the text (or read it from the booklet) the effect
>grows even more!
> Mikko Reinikainen
> Finland
I read in the New York Times advertisements in Sunday's section 2 that
he's now finished (or soon expects to finish) the whole Cantata (which
a Gramophone review stated, I believe, that he had set aside to work on
the recently released opera Life with an Idiot) and that it will receive
its New York premiere in the next few months.
-Eric Schissel
Eric Schissel
Wuerschten! Heisse Wuerschten! Frische Wuerschten!
should write me (I've taken a year of German, does that count)-
I'm not going to post an answer.
Address: es...@crux2.cit.cornell.edu
schi...@math.cornell.edu
Include your own address (email).
-Eric Schissel
Eric Schissel
> the 3rd (or is it the 4th) movement of Prokofievs 3rd symphony where the
during the scene with the alchemist. The symphony actually contains
an abridgement of the original.
-Eric Schissel
>melody floats about and is abrubtly interrupted by sharp loud chords - don't
>listen to this one on headphones on a nightime walk !
>Ian
>--
> "I'm not going to die, I've just bought a new pair of trousers"
> Havergal Brian, aged 92
Still one of Eric Schissel's favorite comp-
osers.
Paul Lafollette
Schubert's setting of Heine's Doppelgaenger. And perhaps even
more disturbing (in a different direction) the last song in
Winterreise (or all of Winterreise for that matter.)
And while we're doing Schubert, Erlkoenig also comes to mind.
Matt Robertson
A recently discovered peice (for me, that is) that sends chills up
my spine is the sequnce from Schnittke's "Faust Cantata" when the
devil comes to collect Dr. Faustus' soul at midnight, while his col-
leagues listen in terror from upstairs (Es gesach...). Anyone know
if S. still intends to make this into a full opera?
****************************************************************************
Matt Robertson
Boeing Computer Services Theater is life,
Bellevue, Washington Film is art,
mr2...@almond.ca.boeing.com Television is furniture.
****************************************************************************
Struan Gray
> I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps,
> that make their skin crawl, that make them want to vomit
> in terror!!
My favourite 'Now the fan's really going to need a wipe' music is
Scarpio's entrance in act one of 'Tosca'. I leaves you in no doubt
that things are about to go downhill fast. However, for sustained
suspense, creeps, terror etc, I vote for Bartok's Opera, 'Duke
Bluebeard's Castle.' Makes Hitchcock's efforts look like 'Little
House on the Prarie.'
Struan
Margaret Mikulska
>In article <24...@mindlink.bc.ca> Mike_Q...@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley) writes:
>
>>I'm just wondering what pieces really give people the creeps, that make their
>>skin crawl, that make them want to vomit in terror!!
>
> 1. Although I normally love Ligeti's _Nouvelle Aventures_, ensemble Die
>Reihe's most recent(?) recording of it was terrifying.
I doubt it is recent: more likely from the 1960/70s. Which label? Wergo?
Try "Le Grand Macabre". No, the title doesn't say all ... :-)
<insert satanic laughter>
-Margaret
Klaus Gaarder FNI
Kammerensemble Darmstadt, Bruno Maderna cond, on Wergo WER 60045-50 from 1985, I think the
recording is older, 60/70s as you indicate.
--
__@
_`\<,_
(*)/ (*) Claudio Caputti
+d+o+n+`+t++u+s+e++y+o+u+r++h+e+a+d+,++u+s+e++a++h+e+l+m+e+t++#++++++++++++++++
-----------------------------
| Klaus Gaarder |
| Norwegian Telecom Research|
| P.o. Box 83 |
| N-2007 Kjeller |
| NORWAY |
-----------------------------
Free will - the result of chaotic amplification of quantum events in the brain.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard_...@magic-bbs.corp.apple.com
Jeff Winslow
>Massige Achtel (the second piece) from Schonberg's Drei
>Klavierstucke Op. 11
Seriously! I've always thought that one very intense and passionate, but
never evil. Now, how will the power of suggestion work?
Most pianists would say the third one was Most Evil.
Jeff Winslow
Jeff Winslow
| Ah, the power of Urban Legends and good PR! Once again, this piece
| was originally called "Music for 52 [maybe 48 - I forget] Strings"
| and wasn't meant to instill anything of the kind you mention.
| The current title was slapped on later - and indeed, the work sells
| better than other compositions by Penderecki from the same period, but
| having less memorable titles.
Well, we know all about the fallability of composers' intentions. There's
nothing saying that the piece couldn't have inspired these feelings in
him after he was done with it. There's nothing saying that he originally
decided to name it "Music for 50-some Strings" even though it aroused
apocalyptic feelings in him as he was writing it. I believe it is true
that many of Debussy's works were finished, or pretty much so, before he
had titles for them (and I'm reasonably certain this is true for the second
of the second group of piano Images). They are no less evocative for that.
And of course he made a deliberate and significant decision to have his
preludes published with their descriptive titles at the end.
Anyone remember the part in Schnabel's "My Life and Music" where he tells
of taking three piano pieces, named "Drei Klavierstuecke" after Schoenberg,
to a publisher who decided that they should all be given individual
descriptive titles? The interesting thing is that Schnabel describes his
own choice of title as "arrogant".
Jeff Winslow
Dale Atems
>The last chord of the Charles Ives' Fourth Symphony uses all twelve pitches.
>
>
As I recall, that finale dies away in a pretty unequivocal D major. Are
you sure you don't mean the last chord of the *2nd* symphony?
------
Dale Atems
Wayne State University, Detroit, MI
Department of Physics and Astronomy
at...@igor.physics.wayne.edu
Bradford Kellogg
|> Roger Lustig writes
|> > (Paulo Martel) writes:
|> > > (Roger Lustig) writes:
|> >
|> > >>I don't care *how* good Salminen is. When I saw him standing on the
|> > >>top of Gibichhall, shouting "Waffen! Starke Waffen! Gute Waffen!"
|> > >>I could only think, "Wuerstchen! Heisse Wuerstchen! Frische Wuerstchen!"
|>
|> > >would you mind translating that last bit ? For us ignorants who know German
|> > >from opera librettos only...
|> >
|> > you will have to do it yourself. Any German dictionary will have those
|> > words; and a literal translation will do nicely.
|> >
Okay, Roger, and the rest of you who won't play nicely and ruin the scene
for everyone who doesn't know German :-), here goes:
What was a call to arms, roughly "Arms! Powerful Arms! Good Arms!"
...becomes a carnival sales pitch...
Frankfurters! Hot Frankfurters! Fresh Frankfurters!
- BK
Bradford Kellogg
In article <1993May12....@credence.com>, je...@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow) writes:
|> In article <1993May9.2...@Princeton.EDU>, miku...@astro.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska) writes:
|>
|> | Ah, the power of Urban Legends and good PR! Once again, this piece
|> | was originally called "Music for 52 [maybe 48 - I forget] Strings"
|> | and wasn't meant to instill anything of the kind you mention.
|> | The current title was slapped on later - and indeed, the work sells
|> | better than other compositions by Penderecki from the same period, but
|> | having less memorable titles.
|>
|> Well, we know all about the fallability of composers' intentions. There's
|> nothing saying that the piece couldn't have inspired these feelings in
|> him after he was done with it. There's nothing saying that he originally
|> decided to name it "Music for 50-some Strings" even though it aroused
|> apocalyptic feelings in him as he was writing it.
When I listen to "Threnody", it is hard to imagine that Penderecki was
motivated entirely by an academic interest in how strings would sound if
played that way. Perhaps he was, but if so, why would he be so cynical
to think that he needed a provocative and disingenuous title in order to
sell it?
- BK
sgi.siemens.com
Received: from sgsn32.sgiae by sgsn01.sgiae (4.1/SMI-4.1-DNI)
id AA07314; Wed, 12 May 93 13:22:00 CDT
From: baumgart (John Baumgart)
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id AA04314; Wed, 12 May 93 13:21:59 CDT
To: sgvx02!uucp%"siemens!cs.utexas.edu!rec-music-classical"
Subject: Re: The Most Evil Music
From article 50953:
> I don't care *how* good Salminen is. When I saw him standing on the
> top of Gibichhall, shouting "Waffen! Starke Waffen! Gute Waffen!"
> I could only think, "Wuerstchen! Heisse Wuerstchen! Frische Wuerstchen!"
>
Hey, P.D.Q. Bach fans! Wasn't there someone in the crowd at a Beethoven
sportscast yelling this? If not, shouldn't there have been?? :}
> With many apologies,
>
> Roger
With apologies only for keeping this sub-thread alive (I couldn't resist),
John
----------------------------------------------------------------------
John Baumgart Siemens Gammasonics, Inc.
baum...@sgi.siemens.com Hoffman Estates, IL
(Standard disclaimers and disassociations apply)
======================================================================
Vance Maverick
|>
|> When I listen to "Threnody", it is hard to imagine that Penderecki was
|> motivated entirely by an academic interest in how strings would sound if
|> played that way. Perhaps he was, but if so, why would he be so cynical
|> to think that he needed a provocative and disingenuous title in order to
|> sell it?
Because that was the case.
Vance
Bradford Kellogg
Do you know this to be be true? Can you identify your source? The only
reason I'm asking is because I don't really want to believe it, but if
it is true, I don't want to labor under a misconception. It is the same
as when I first heard that Kathleen Battle is a Battle AXE. I didn't want
to believe it, but after some overwhelming evidence, I had to concede she
might not be as sweet a person as I thought.
- BK
Daniel Hobbs
I remember first hearing the "Threnody" and being truly amazed (I think the
late 80s/early 90s expression is "blown away") by it -- I just didn't know
you could make strings sound that way. For me, the title "Threnody for the
Victims of Hiroshima" definitely adds to the effect of the piece. I'm
pretty sure I'd find the piece "interesting", even "passionate" without
the title, but to listen to it _as_ a "threnody for the victims of Hiroshima"
makes it a moving piece for me. I guess the possibility of being
manipulated is always present. . .
A related question is, to what extent _does_ the "program" -- whether
explicit notes or simply a descriptive title -- affect one's listening
experience of a given piece. I find the effect more pronounced in
the Penderecki piece than in almost any other touted piece of "program"
music (e.g., Beethoven's Pastorale symphony, Strauss' "Till Eulenspiegel").
Most of the time if I try to "hear" the program -- to match the program
to the music as we go along -- I'm somewhere between mystified, disappointed,
and kinda angry because I expected so much more.
Is the musical "effectiveness" or "success" (in a critical sense, not just
idiosyncratic emotional response) of a piece of program music actually
enhanced by the program? Does the how we listen to music even _depend_ on
the program?
For example, suppose I wrote a piece of program music that adhered to the
"program" but not (at least so well) to the basic principles of composition
(by _somebody_'s criteria...). Would -- or _could_ -- this piece be
perceived as a musical success by impartial listeners?
Or, is it possible that the basic principles of "narrative" in music and
story ("program") are similar enough at a deeper, structural level that
any piece of music that followed a "program" would also follow, to some
extent, the principles of musical development?
Dan Hobbs
dan...@sequent.com
dst...@ac.dal.ca
orchestra kind of stuff is a no-no to mention in this group)
would be something along the lines of Schoenberg's Phantasy for
violin and piano. Incidently, its worth checking out Sony's new
video releases of Glenn Gould performances, one of which includes
Gould playing the aformentioned piece with Yehudi Menuhin. This was
recorded for a (live) television show in the 1960's for the CBC
(Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for you neophytes). The piece is
evil to begin with, but before I ever saw/heard it, I had read in
one of Gould's biographies that Menuhin had learned the piece only
the previous night before the performance. Knowing this, I kept
waiting for "the train to come off the tracks", which of course
never happened. As another rambling aside, to the Gould detractors
in some other threads, I say that surely a genius of the magnitude
of Gould can be forgiven anything. Anything.
Paul Fawcett, Dept. of Microbiology, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Canada
David M. Kristol
[much stuff deleted]
>Is the musical "effectiveness" or "success" (in a critical sense, not just
>idiosyncratic emotional response) of a piece of program music actually
>enhanced by the program? Does the how we listen to music even _depend_ on
>the program?
[more stuff deleted]
How many of us respond to Copland's "Appalachian Spring" by picturing
scenes of rural life, etc., etc.? That's especially true if you've
actually seen a dance company perform to the music.
Of course, the image is, in a way, a sham. Copland originally titled
the work "Music for Martha", meaning Martha Graham, who commissioned
the work and gave it the familiar title when she choreographed it.
He was writing music to dance to. Nevertheless, it's hard to put the
"conventional" images out of mind when you hear the music.
It's really hard to get a program out of your head once it gets put in.
(Try not thinking about elephants if someone says "Don't think about
elephants.") The program may have nothing to do with the composer.
Consider things like Disney's "Fantasia", "The Lone Ranger", and Peter
Schickele's "Unbegun Symphony", which have irrevocably changed the way
I hear (or think about) certain pieces of music. I don't know whether
the "program" changes the effectiveness (whatever that means) of the music,
but it often changes my response to it.
Dave Kristol
Vance Maverick
|>
|> In article <1srp4a$i...@agate.berkeley.edu>, mave...@fir.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Vance Maverick) writes:
|> |> In article <1993May12.1...@viewlogic.com>, br...@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:
|> |> |> why would he be so cynical
|> |> |> to think that he needed a provocative and disingenuous title in order to
|> |> |> sell it?
|> |>
|> |> Because that was the case.
|> |>
|>
|> Do you know this to be be true? Can you identify your source? The only
|> reason I'm asking is because I don't really want to believe it, but if
|> it is true, I don't want to labor under a misconception.
No, I just meant that to sell one's mod music, one
really does need to give a pathetic or aggressive
reason for its modness. Which of Messiaen's pieces
is the most famous? Why is no Xenakis piece
(hobbyhorse alert) as well known as the _Threnody_?
Not for lack of orchestral aggression and
dissonance, that's for sure.
Vance
Claudia Zornow
> ...horror film called 'The Brain-eaters'. The film consists mainly of these
> cute furry things umping on to people's backs and sucking their brains out.
> Anyway, all of the supposedly horrifying action took place with
> Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony as background music. It was an interesting
> touch.
Which movement?
Claudia
STEPHEN WEISS
movement of Beethoven's Sonata XI, Op. 22:
B(!) c d c Bb
A (Bb)
Eb D
Bb,
If this turn (B c d c) is played on the beat the dissonance
created is quite Schoenbergian and shocking in the context of
Beethoven!
Deryk Barker
: In article <1993May12.1...@magic-bbs.corp.apple.com> Richard_...@magic-bbs.corp.apple.com writes:
: >The last chord of the Charles Ives' Fourth Symphony uses all twelve pitches.
: >
: >
:
: As I recall, that finale dies away in a pretty unequivocal D major. Are
: you sure you don't mean the last chord of the *2nd* symphony?
I think he does, and it surely only has 11 of the twelve tones.
--
Real: Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dba...@camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789
The last movement of Shostakovich 5 (the one expressing "unbounded
optimism," or "empty irony," depending on your political line) can also
be heard in *Rollerball*, when the rollerballers(?) are about to
"inherit the earth," as I recall.
Bill
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison, \ / "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX >-----------< reality itself" |
| CHE...@JETSON.BITNET / \ V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
Bradford Kellogg
In article <1stt64$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>, mave...@fir.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Vance Maverick) writes:
|> In article <1993May12.2...@viewlogic.com>, br...@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:
|> |> Do you know this to be be true? Can you identify your source? The only
|> |> reason I'm asking is because I don't really want to believe it, but if
|> |> it is true, I don't want to labor under a misconception.
|>
|> No, I just meant that to sell one's mod music, one
|> really does need to give a pathetic or aggressive
|> reason for its modness. Which of Messiaen's pieces
|> is the most famous?
Good question. I don't know. However, the one I know the best is
Quatuor pour la fin du temps. It does have a provocative title.
Is this the most famous?
|> Why is no Xenakis piece (hobbyhorse alert) as well
|> known as the _Threnody_? Not for lack of orchestral
|> aggression and dissonance, that's for sure.
I'm glad you mentioned this. I will have to get my hands on some
Xenakis and listen. Currently, I have none.
- BK
Steve Apter
On Le Chante du Monde, _Metastasis_, _Pithoprakta_, and _Eonta_.
Try it.
>
>- BK
Don Pajerek
>
>
As I recall, the 4th ends with a fadeout in the percussion. Are you perhaps
thinking of the 2nd, which does end in a loud garish dissonance?
Don Pajerek
Standard disclaimers apply.
Don Pajerek
A candidate for this might be the big suspended chord that occurs in
the middle of the "Adagio" of Bach's "Toccata, Adagio, and Fugue in C Major".
This isn't a twelve-tone chord, or anything, but its occurrence at just
that point is stunning.
Daniel Hobbs
>
>It's really hard to get a program out of your head once it gets put in.
>(Try not thinking about elephants if someone says "Don't think about
>elephants.") The program may have nothing to do with the composer.
>Consider things like Disney's "Fantasia", "The Lone Ranger", and Peter
>Schickele's "Unbegun Symphony", which have irrevocably changed the way
>I hear (or think about) certain pieces of music. I don't know whether
>the "program" changes the effectiveness (whatever that means) of the music,
>but it often changes my response to it.
Yes, but notice that in Fantasia, the animation for the Tchaikovsky
has essentially nothing to do with the original musical program.
_Now_ which program do you think about? (I think about the "Fantasia"
one...)
Dan
Jeff Winslow
>je...@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow) writes:
:
>: Hmm - I haven't heard that one. I'll have to give it a listen, to see how
>: it compares with the one in the Adagio in Mahler's 10th, or Salome's orgasm
>: (or is it Herod's disgust?) just before the end of Strauss's opera.
>
>Or the climax of the first movement of the Resurrection, or the 'cry
>of disgust' at the opening of the finale thereof?
I love both of those (although I would never call the latter a cry of
disgust - I have no idea what was running through Mahler's head when he
wrote it, but to me it's always a cross between inspiration and terror,
far too beautiful to be disgust), but they just don't compare in dissonance.
Why, the former is "only" a diminished 7th against a dissonant pedal, and
the latter is just iv over a dominant pedal. :-)
(The latter is also one of my favorite moments in all of Mahler. Another
real grabber in that movement is the first time the soloist soars over
the chorus - leading to, coincidentally enough, an 11th in the form of
IV, this time, over the dominant.)
I'm surprised you didn't mention the opening of the finale of the 6th. The
first time I looked at the score I couldn't believe how simple it was
harmonically. Scoring does the trick. Speaking of terrifying...
Jeff Winslow
Klaus Gaarder FNI
his piano music (Vingt Regards sur l'enfant Jesus, Catalogue d'Oiseaux) which IS fabulous.
As for Xenakis: try out Psappha and Pleiades for percussion (both on BIS original dynamics).
-- KLaus
__@
_`\<,_
(*)/ (*) Claudio Caputti
+d+o+n+`+t++u+s+e++y+o+u+r++h+e+a+d+,++u+s+e++a++h+e+l+m+e+t++#+++++++++++++++
Robert Coren
|> >Or the climax of the first movement of the Resurrection, or the 'cry
|> >of disgust' at the opening of the finale thereof?
|>
|> I love both of those (although I would never call the latter a cry of
|> disgust - I have no idea what was running through Mahler's head when he
|> wrote it, but to me it's always a cross between inspiration and terror,
|> far too beautiful to be disgust), but they just don't compare in dissonance.
|> Why, the former is "only" a diminished 7th against a dissonant pedal, and
|> the latter is just iv over a dominant pedal. :-)
|>
|> (The latter is also one of my favorite moments in all of Mahler. Another
|> real grabber in that movement is the first time the soloist soars over
|> the chorus - leading to, coincidentally enough, an 11th in the form of
|> IV, this time, over the dominant.)
Me too.
|>
|> I'm surprised you didn't mention the opening of the finale of the 6th. The
|> first time I looked at the score I couldn't believe how simple it was
|> harmonically. Scoring does the trick. Speaking of terrifying...
What about the opening of the finale of the 1st? Again, it's not
that extraordinary harmonically, but the scoring is strident enough to
sound like a scream, especially breaking in on the silence into which
the previous movement fades. (IMO, this transition *must* be done as
an *attacca*, and I don't remember whether the score specifies it or
not.)
Bradford Kellogg
In article <1993May13.2...@Princeton.EDU>, miku...@sirius.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska) writes:
|> Vance has a very good point here: First, there are several pieces by
|> Penderecki written in a similar style - for instance, "Polymorphia",
|> which I think is just as expressive as the "Threnody" - which are
|> nowhere as popular as the "Threnody".
What do you mean by "expressive" ? Expressive of what? If you attach an
abstract title to something, it is up to the listener to apply whatever
imagery they might concoct. The expressiveness of Polymorphia might have
the listener thinking of a bin of kumquats, or perhaps two teddy bears
dancing a polka. But with a title that guides the listener, such as
Threnody, images other than Hiroshima are much less likely, so there
is a more universal response to it. I think the popularity may come from
the minimized sense of isolation, knowing that the image is tangible
and universal. People like to share experiences and feelings, and where
the title of a piece of avant garde music has as many possible forms of
interpretation as listeners, the listening experience can, for some
people, become lonely, bleak, something that cannot be shared.
I certainly am not suggesting that programmatic titles are "better"
than absolute or abstract titles. I think it is important to challenge
the listener to find meaning by themselves, so listening can be a
creative experience. Polymorphia is no less important or creative or
potentially meaningful than Threnody. Perhaps, because the meaning is
not predefined, it can be more meaningful.
|> Second, works like the "Threnody"
|> or "Polymorphia" or others are avant-garde works, full of what the
|> average public would call noise, cacophony, etc. Now, for a lot of
|> listeners it is easier to dismiss such a piece when it's called "Music #4
|> for nn strings" or "ST/<lots of numbers>" than when it's called and
|> billed as a work related to some important (and tragic) event. Whether
|> it's subconscious or not, many listeners would be reluctant to dismiss
|> the "Threnody", feeling that by denigrating the piece they are being
|> insensitive to the event itself. Also, the sounds that would be "cacophony"
|> for the listeners are now "an expression of horror" or whatever else. I
|> myself overheard or simply heard comments from listeners, after the
|> performance of some modern works, that "this music expresses so well the
|> stresses of modern life" or "the horrors of <this-or-that>", or something
|> similar.
You have a good point here. People will dismiss things they can't relate
to. I have overheard people in art galleries, looking at a Jackson Pollack
painting, say "my kid could do that".
|> Note that in the "evil music" thread, the majority of works listed had
|> an "evil-sounding" title, program, libretto, or at least a story behind
|> it; in other words, an extra-musical component. Very few pieces mentioned
|> were of non-programmatic character. Needless to say, this is not a
|> coincidence.
Yes, people often are prone to suggestion. I have often come to the conclusion
that there is no greater power in the universe than the power of suggestion.
|> -Margaret
- BK
Daniel Hobbs
>In article <1993May13....@sequent.com> dan...@sequent.com (Daniel
>Hobbs) asks about the famous Nutcracker set in Disney's Fantasia:
>
>_Now_ which program do you think about?
>
>we are acquainted with more than one. David Kristol said
Incorrect? By whose standards???
[..stuff deleted..]
> *Listening is a creative act.*
>
>
>For me, anyway. (All creative acts are of course *personal* experiences.
>Ravel's Ondine sounds more thrilling when you know its program, and even
>more thrilling when you are also sitting next to a person you love.)
>
I'll drink to that.
Which brings me to a question that's been lurking somewhere in my mind
for a long time. NOTE: if this is in a FAQ somewhere because it gets
discussed every five weeks, please notify, but I've read this group off and
on for a couple of years and don't recall this precise angle being taken ...
How _do_ you listen to music? That is, what does your head do as you
listen? Or, what kinds of things do people do in their heads when they
listen.
Clearly, one kind of listening is just let go and let the music wash over
you, not thinking about structure, relationships between movements, etc.
This kind of uncritical listening is, I assume, what "most people" go to
the symphony or buy recordings for.
But there's also the "critical approach," the kind of listening one does
during a course in music theory or music literature -- e.g., hearing the
two themes in a sonata allegro movement, consciously noting the repeat
exposition, when the development begins, is there a coda?, that kind of
thing.
But is this it? I'm especially interested in music for which this kind
of "first level" critical listening just isn't adequate (at least for me).
For example, how do the musically experienced listen to Schnittke,
Penderecki's "Threnody", the "weird stuff"?
Do you consciously listen for structural elements? If so, how do you
(i.e., how can I) hear them in these works. Do some of these works
demand access to a score for "informed" listening or appreciation?
Or, do you (sometimes at least) just let go and let the sound flow around
you? And is that a valid approach for any kind of music?
And, behind all this, perhaps, is the quesion of elitism. Is there any
way to approach some of these works _except_ analytically. Were they
even _meant_ to be approached except analytically?
Dan
Margaret Mikulska
Vance has a very good point here: First, there are several pieces by
Penderecki written in a similar style - for instance, "Polymorphia",
which I think is just as expressive as the "Threnody" - which are
nowhere as popular as the "Threnody". Second, works like the "Threnody"
or "Polymorphia" or others are avant-garde works, full of what the
average public would call noise, cacophony, etc. Now, for a lot of
listeners it is easier to dismiss such a piece when it's called "Music #4
for nn strings" or "ST/<lots of numbers>" than when it's called and
billed as a work related to some important (and tragic) event. Whether
it's subconscious or not, many listeners would be reluctant to dismiss
the "Threnody", feeling that by denigrating the piece they are being
insensitive to the event itself. Also, the sounds that would be "cacophony"
for the listeners are now "an expression of horror" or whatever else. I
myself overheard or simply heard comments from listeners, after the
performance of some modern works, that "this music expresses so well the
stresses of modern life" or "the horrors of <this-or-that>", or something
similar.
Note that in the "evil music" thread, the majority of works listed had
an "evil-sounding" title, program, libretto, or at least a story behind
it; in other words, an extra-musical component. Very few pieces mentioned
were of non-programmatic character. Needless to say, this is not a
coincidence.
-Margaret
eyo...@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Hobbs) asks about the famous Nutcracker set in Disney's Fantasia:
_Now_ which program do you think about?
I think it is incorrect to speak of us choosing a program to listen to once
we are acquainted with more than one. David Kristol said
It's really hard to get a program out of your head once it gets put in.
but I think even this statement (with which I agree) is an incomplete
description of the situation.
Wuerstchen! Heisse Wuerstchen!
Listening to a piece of music (or perceiving any kind of art) is not the
same kind of mental activity as, say, reading the troubleshooting guide
for your lawn mower to figure out why it won't start. It is more akin to
reading the manufacturer's specifications for your lawn mower to figure out
how to figure out why it won't start. In other words, music does not so
much *follow* a program as *fit* a program. Certainly "Threnody" and
"Appalachian Spring" were "arbitrary" titles for their respective complete
works, but they are also certainly not arbitrarily interchangeable!
When I listen to music I "think" inadvertantly of every program that
I know has been applied to that music; every anecdote about the composition
and every critical analysis of it that I have come across; every performance
of that music which was vivid enough to make an impression on me in the past.
Even spurious distractions or comments I would rather not have heard (thanks
a heap, Roger:)
I don't have a choice about the program. I don't have a choice about
*anything*, because I can't directly control my consciousness. Every time
I listen to a musical work my mind works differently, according to my
memory, my mood, external circumstances. *Listening is a creative act.*
For me, anyway. (All creative acts are of course *personal* experiences.
Ravel's Ondine sounds more thrilling when you know its program, and even
more thrilling when you are also sitting next to a person you love.)
Ed Young
(eyo...@binah.cc.brandeis.edu)
Timothy Spann
the most evil piece of music is Edgar Varese's - "Poeme electronique"
FRIGHTENING.
Gregory Candy
My candidate would also be Charles Ives, in
his piece for Chorus, Organ and Bells called
PSALM 54 (I hope I have the number right).
There are four or five chords that coincide
with the words "fear", "flood", "wrath", and
others which are incredible disonent within
the context. One of which is a chord built
starting at middle C, and having voices
simultaneously ascend and descend (and hold)
in whole tones, creating a block of over
20 notes; VERY dissonent.
-- gtc
Chris Brewster
How _do_ you listen to music? That is, what does your head do as you
listen? Or, what kinds of things do people do in their heads when they
listen.
Without shedding any light on the question, I'd like to bring in some
corollary topics. How much do people use "good" music (whatever they
take seriously) as background as they do other things? Can you read and
have music playing? Does anyone use mind-altering substances with
music? (That is, does anyone's *friend*?) Do you listen in the dark?
Chris Brewster E-MAIL ADDRESS: c...@cray.com
Vance Maverick
|> Daniel Hobbs writes:
|>
|> How _do_ you listen to music? That is, what does your head do as you
|> listen? Or, what kinds of things do people do in their heads when they
|> listen.
|>
|> Without shedding any light on the question, I'd like to bring in some
|> corollary topics. How much do people use "good" music (whatever they
|> take seriously) as background as they do other things?
Not much. I dislike the whole concept of background
music. This means problems with the Bay Area cafe scene,
but I've trained myself pretty well -- I had to laugh,
though, one morning on Polk Street, when I heard Isolde
bellowing over the shriek of the espresso machine.
Eventually they switched to something that at least
sounds innocuous when relegated to the background -- a
Mozart piano concerto.
I do sometimes cook and pick up around the apartment
while music plays, though. Certain striking musical
moments are associated in my mind with parts of the
apartment -- the horn whoops in _Kraanerg_ with the front
closet, for example.
|> Can you read and have music playing?
No. Liner notes, maybe.
|> Does anyone use mind-altering substances with
|> music? (That is, does anyone's *friend*?)
My friend tells me that good music is just too much --
suddenly the popularity of the Grateful Dead made sense.
But when you realize how rich and fascinating an
experience of e.g. the fabric on the couch one is
ordinarily missing, there's little reason to seek
stimulation from the usual source -- he says.
|> Do you listen in the dark?
Only metaphorically.
Vance
Francois R. Velde
>|> Without shedding any light on the question, I'd like to bring in some
>|> corollary topics. How much do people use "good" music (whatever they
>|> take seriously) as background as they do other things?
All the time. I then pay varying degrees of attention to it, depending
on the music and what I am doing. I will (if alone) often sing along,
mark the beat (dangerous when cooking), or otherwise participate in the
music. I find silence oppressing, and music conducive to almost everything.
The right music can be an excellent intellectual stimulant.
This habit can lead to sometimes surprising associations between a specific
passage in a piece, and what I was doing or where I was when I was listening
to it.