Beethoven metronome markings (again)
RX-01
In an old thread, dating from 1992-07-13, Richard Carnes
(car...@sparky.eecs.umich.edu)wrote the following:
"The period-instrument recordings of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony
performed by the Hanover Band (Roy Goodman), the Academy of Ancient
Music (Christopher Hogwood), and the London Classical Players (Roger
Norrington) are alike in adhering to the Beethoven's metronome marks
more closely than usual, especially in the case of Norrington's
performance. But serious questions have been raised about the printed
markings in the Trio of the second movement (half note = 116) and in
the finale's Alla marcia (dotted quarter = 84). Almost uniquely among
Beethoven's numerous metronome markings, many of which have impressed
many listeners as being too fast, these two tempos seem too slow by a
good margin to most knowledgeable listeners; in addition, they seem to
contradict Beethoven's verbal tempo indications, respectively "Presto"
and "Allegro assai vivace".
I believe this question has now been laid to rest by Clive Brown in a
recent excellent article: "Historical performance, metronome marks and
tempo in Beethoven's symphonies", EARLY MUSIC (May 1991), pp. 247ff.
IMHO Brown puts it beyond reasonable doubt that these markings have
been incorrectly transmitted and that Beethoven intended these
sections to be taken twice as fast as the printed markings.
William Malloch's reasoning in his article in MUSICAL AMERICA
defending the slow tempos is full of gaping holes -- not surprising
since Malloch is an amateur scholar, although a professional radio
announcer.
Much as I respect Richard Taruskin, he was suffering from a delusion
when he wrote concerning the Trio:
"As for Leibowitz, he evidently believed that the intended mark was
whole note (i.e., full measure) = 116 -- against the plain physical
evidence of Beethoven's manuscript, available in published facsimile
since 1924. Trying valiantly for what was clearly impossible, he
ended up at half note = 180. That the result sounded ridiculous in
its flat contradiction of Beethoven's pastoral imagery did not deter
him in his quest for literal authenticity." ["Resisting the Ninth,
in
NINETEENTH-CENTURY MUSIC]
But: (1) Beethoven's autograph has no metronome markings; if Taruskin
meant Beethoven's October 1826 letter to Schott, it was drafted by
Karl Beethoven and contains one undisputed error in the metronome
marks, while Beethoven was a notoriously careless proofreader. The
source of Karl's confusion can be seen on a page in the Conversation
Books, in which he wrote "116 (half note) (half note) (bar line)";
Beethoven had originally drafted the Trio in 2/4 (or 1/2). (2) Whole
note = 116, which Taruskin considers an impossible tempo, has been
adopted by Benjamin Zander in performance and pronounced exhilarating
(I don't know what tempo he takes in his recording). (3) A true
"Presto" (Beethoven also wrote "Prestissimo" in faint pencil on the
same page in the autograph) is not contradicted by the pastoral
imagery (e.g., the drone bass). And the report of the first
performance, at which Beethoven famously stood beside the conductor
and gave the tempos, describes the Trio as "a brilliant March".
In a letter Beethoven wrote that the first performance of the Ninth
had taken 45 (!) minutes. If that's accurate, he *really* galloped
through it; it takes significantly longer than that even at the
specified tempos, even when the Trio and Alla marcia are taken at the
fast tempos."
Richard Carnes
End of quoted text
======================================================================
I know that Beethoven's metronome markings have been discussed
thoroughly in this newsgroup, but could someone confirm the statement
that in a letter Beethoven wrote that the first performance of the 9th
lasted for 45 mins?
Has anyone got any evidence on that, or any other information on how
fast Beethoven performed his symphonies?
Thank you.
RX-01
Mark K. Ehlert
news:19a471bf.02072...@posting.google.com:
> I know that Beethoven's metronome markings have been discussed
> thoroughly in this newsgroup, but could someone confirm the
> statement that in a letter Beethoven wrote that the first
> performance of the 9th lasted for 45 mins?
It wasn't Beethoven, but George Smart of England whose letter (or
diary?) you are referrnig to. And I believe that the 45 minutes
performance was the first one in England, not the world premiere.
Somebody who has their sources handy can correct me if I'm wrong
here.
> Has anyone got any evidence on that, or any other information on
> how fast Beethoven performed his symphonies?
Sorry, don't know the answer there. It sounds like an interesting
idea for research, however.
--
Mark K. Ehlert
To reply via e-mail, X = 3
Joyce Maier
"Mark K. Ehlert" <ludwig...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:Xns9259C69C73A6Alu...@152.65.161.36...
(snip)
> > Has anyone got any evidence on that, or any other information on
> > how fast Beethoven performed his symphonies?
>
> Sorry, don't know the answer there. It sounds like an interesting
> idea for research, however.
Has been researched already decades ago, but the results are disappointing
insofar that there's not much to learn. Not enough data.
Joyce Maier
www.ademu.com/Beethoven
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: Has been researched already decades ago, but the results are disappointing
: insofar that there's not much to learn. Not enough data.
Since when has *that* ever stopped anyone?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Steve Hehr
<ludwig...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>kon...@yahoo.com (RX-01) wrote in
>news:19a471bf.02072...@posting.google.com:
>
>> I know that Beethoven's metronome markings have been discussed
>> thoroughly in this newsgroup, but could someone confirm the
>> statement that in a letter Beethoven wrote that the first
>> performance of the 9th lasted for 45 mins?
>
>It wasn't Beethoven, but George Smart of England whose letter (or
>diary?) you are referrnig to. And I believe that the 45 minutes
>performance was the first one in England, not the world premiere.
>Somebody who has their sources handy can correct me if I'm wrong
>here.
>
It was Smart's diary, and it refers to what Beethoven told him during
his visit with Beethoven and others at Baden on September 16, 1825.
Smart states:
"Beethoven gave me the time, by playing the subjects on the
pianoforte, of many movements of his symphonies, including the Choral
Symphony, which according to his account took three-quarters of an
hour only in performance. The party present, namely Holz, the amateur
violin; Carl Beethoven, the nephew; besides young Ries, agreed that
the performance at Vienna only took that time; this I deem to be
totally impossible."
You may find this account in the book "Beethoven: Impressions by his
Contemporaries", edited by O.G. Sonneck (Dover, 1954, p. 195).
--
Steve Hehr
To send me email, replace the "out" in my address with its opposite.
Joyce Maier
"Steve Hehr" <stev...@outfi.net> schreef in bericht
news:3d4c877a...@newstest2.earthlink.net...
(snip)
> It was Smart's diary, and it refers to what Beethoven told him during
> his visit with Beethoven and others at Baden on September 16, 1825.
> Smart states:
>
> "Beethoven gave me the time, by playing the subjects on the
> pianoforte, of many movements of his symphonies, including the Choral
> Symphony, which according to his account took three-quarters of an
> hour only in performance. The party present, namely Holz, the amateur
> violin; Carl Beethoven, the nephew; besides young Ries, agreed that
> the performance at Vienna only took that time; this I deem to be
> totally impossible."
Hm, this throws an instructive light on Smart's reliability. 'Young' Ries...
the man was 41 in 1825. And there's another 'trifle': Ries wasn't in Vienna
in 1825. Most probably he was in London at the time.
Joyce Maier
www.ademu.com/Beethoven
Michael Haslam
Surely "young" means "son" or "younger (male) member of the family" here.
Didn't Beethoven study with Ferdinand's father? The use of "young" in this way
is a standard English idiom that has no bearing on actual age. Ries didn't need
to be present at the Vienna performance to have an opinion on the length of the
Choral Symphony.
MJHaslam
Joyce Maier
"Michael Haslam" <inn...@mac.com> schreef in bericht
news:3D4CE321...@mac.com...
(snip)
> > > "Beethoven gave me the time, by playing the subjects on the
> > > pianoforte, of many movements of his symphonies, including the Choral
> > > Symphony, which according to his account took three-quarters of an
> > > hour only in performance. The party present, namely Holz, the amateur
> > > violin; Carl Beethoven, the nephew; besides young Ries, agreed that
> > > the performance at Vienna only took that time; this I deem to be
> > > totally impossible."
> >
> > Hm, this throws an instructive light on Smart's reliability. 'Young'
Ries...
> > the man was 41 in 1825. And there's another 'trifle': Ries wasn't in
Vienna
> > in 1825. Most probably he was in London at the time.
>
> Surely "young" means "son" or "younger (male) member of the family" here.
Hm. I find it somewhat far-fetched to call him 'a member of the family.'
Ries had left Vienna about two decades earlier and though he visited Vienna
and Beethoven a few times afterwards, he lived there again. He travelled
through Europe and finally settled down in London.
> Didn't Beethoven study with Ferdinand's father?
Yes, a few years, when he still lived in Bonn. And he had left Bonn in 1792.
> The use of "young" in this way
> is a standard English idiom that has no bearing on actual age.
I see. Something like 'young Mr.Grace' :-)
> Ries didn't need
> to be present at the Vienna performance to have an opinion on the length
of the
> Choral Symphony.
True, but Smart's words seem to suggest that Ries had been present at a
Viennese performance. He had not. The problem with Smart's testimony is that
Karl nor Holz confirmed this talk, let alone those improbable three quarters
of an hour. I have the feeling that Smart erred after all those years.
Joyce Maier
www.ademu.com/Beethoven
keith edgerley
Perhaps they didn't play the repeats.
Just kidding ...
--
Keith
Let us now praise famous men [...]
Such as found out musical tunes
RX-01
Thanks! This is all very interesting. It is indeed difficult to
imagine a performance of the 9th lasting for 45 minutes. From all 19
recordings that I own, none is so fast. Zinman's lasts for 59.76 mins
and Gardiner's 59.43.
Does anyone know if a faster recording of the 9th exists and, if so,
what is it's duration?
RX-01
Joyce Maier
"RX-01" <kon...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:19a471bf.02080...@posting.google.com...
(snip)
> > > It was Smart's diary, and it refers to what Beethoven told him during
> > > his visit with Beethoven and others at Baden on September 16, 1825.
> > > Smart states:
> > >
> > > "Beethoven gave me the time, by playing the subjects on the
> > > pianoforte, of many movements of his symphonies, including the Choral
> > > Symphony, which according to his account took three-quarters of an
> > > hour only in performance. The party present, namely Holz, the amateur
> > > violin; Carl Beethoven, the nephew; besides young Ries, agreed that
> > > the performance at Vienna only took that time; this I deem to be
> > > totally impossible."
> >
> > Hm, this throws an instructive light on Smart's reliability. 'Young'
Ries...
> > the man was 41 in 1825. And there's another 'trifle': Ries wasn't in
Vienna
> > in 1825. Most probably he was in London at the time.
> Thanks! This is all very interesting. It is indeed difficult to
> imagine a performance of the 9th lasting for 45 minutes. From all 19
> recordings that I own, none is so fast. Zinman's lasts for 59.76 mins
> and Gardiner's 59.43.
Exactly.
BTW, I checked Ries's whereabouts. This is the result. End 1801/beginning
1802 he came to Vienna and became Beethoven's pupil. By the end of 1805 he
returned to Bonn. In 1807 he travelled to Paris. In August 1808 he returned
to Vienna, but in July 1809 he left again, never to return. In 1813/24 he
lived in London. In 1825/26 he lived in Godesberg near Bonn. In 1827 he
moved to Frankfurt and there he died. As far as I know his father never left
Bonn, at least not as his residence. In 1792 Beethoven left Bonn, never to
return, and he lost contact with father Ries, though we can safely assume
that they corresponded prior to the arrival of the son in 1801/2. But alas,
no letters anymore.
Joyce Maier
www.ademu.com/Beethoven
Michael Haslam
> BTW, I checked Ries's whereabouts. This is the result. End 1801/beginning
> 1802 he came to Vienna and became Beethoven's pupil. By the end of 1805 he
> returned to Bonn. In 1807 he travelled to Paris. In August 1808 he returned
> to Vienna, but in July 1809 he left again, never to return. In 1813/24 he
> lived in London.
This is a long time for such a wanderer to remain in one place!
> In 1825/26 he lived in Godesberg near Bonn. In 1827 he
> moved to Frankfurt and there he died. As far as I know his father never left
> Bonn, at least not as his residence. In 1792 Beethoven left Bonn, never to
> return, and he lost contact with father Ries, though we can safely assume
> that they corresponded prior to the arrival of the son in 1801/2. But alas,
> no letters anymore.
While I am sure this is correct as an outline, he must have travelled more
often, if only to give concerts.
MJHaslam
Joyce Maier
> Joyce Maier wrote:
>
> > BTW, I checked Ries's whereabouts. This is the result. End
1801/beginning
> > 1802 he came to Vienna and became Beethoven's pupil. By the end of 1805
he
> > returned to Bonn. In 1807 he travelled to Paris. In August 1808 he
returned
> > to Vienna, but in July 1809 he left again, never to return. In 1813/24
he
> > lived in London.
>
> This is a long time for such a wanderer to remain in one place!
Ries gave some concerts elsewhere in Europe in the years 1803/4. As far as I
know no other travels are known. Anyway, it's for sure that after 1809 he
never visited Vienna again.
> > In 1825/26 he lived in Godesberg near Bonn. In 1827 he
> > moved to Frankfurt and there he died. As far as I know his father never
left
> > Bonn, at least not as his residence. In 1792 Beethoven left Bonn, never
to
> > return, and he lost contact with father Ries, though we can safely
assume
> > that they corresponded prior to the arrival of the son in 1801/2. But
alas,
> > no letters anymore.
>
> While I am sure this is correct as an outline, he must have travelled more
> often, if only to give concerts.
Do you mean Beethoven or father or son Ries? For son Ries, see above. As far
as I know nothing is known about travels by father Ries. About Beethoven we
know much more, of course. In 1793 he was in Eisenstadt and maybe also in
1794. In early spring 1796 he was in Prague, Leipzig, Dresden and Berlin.
In November and December of the same year he was in Pressburg (Bratislava)
and Budapest. In 1798 he was Prague again. In 1800 and maybe also in 1799
and 1801 he was in Martonvasar near Budapest. In 1806 he was in Graetz near
Troppau. In 1811 and 1812 he was in Prague and Bohemia and in 1826 he was in
Gneixendorf near Krems. It's for sure that he never visited Bonn after his
departure in 1792. So we can safely assume that he and father Ries never met
again. Ries senior is completely absent in Beethoven's life in Vienna, in
contrast to Ries junior.
Joyce Maier
www.ademu.com/Beethoven
Peter T. Daniels
The question at hand, though, is whether Ries could have had some way of
knowing the duration of the Vienna performance of the Ninth. Could he
have had reliable information from someone else?
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Joyce Maier
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> schreef in bericht
news:3D4D96...@worldnet.att.net...
(snip)
> The question at hand, though, is whether Ries could have had some way of
> knowing the duration of the Vienna performance of the Ninth. Could he
> have had reliable information from someone else?
Yes, that's the question. Beethoven didn't tell him, at least not in a
letter. As far as we know Ries kept all Beethoven's letters and they all
have been published. After the premiere of the 9th Beethoven sent Ries three
letters, all of them written in 1825. Not a word about the time it had taken
to perform the symphony. So someone else must have informed Ries. Who? When?
How? Another question: how did Ries inform Smart? Did they met? Where and
when? Not in 1825 in Vienna.
Joyce Maier
www.ademu.com/Beethoven
Steve Hehr
wrote:
Mystery solved (apparently):
In Thayer's "Life of Beethoven", Smart's 1825 visit is outlined
(Thayer visited Smart in 1861 and made transcripts of Smart's journal
entries). At the first mention of "Ries" there is a footnote: "Not
the composer but a pianoforte maker of Vienna".