Boito's "Nerone" in performance

[John W Kennedy]

Seeing that Boito's "Nerone" is performed so little, why is it that,
almost from the very beginning, the role of Simon Mago has attracted
baritones who are physically incapable of singing it? It's not all that
difficult a part. There's nothing all that odd about the range or the
tessitura, but over and over again I hear in live recordings both the
top notes being moved down and the bottom notes being moved up,
sometimes to the point that entire passages are nearly recomposed. What
gives?

--
John W Kennedy
"The grand art mastered the thudding hammer of Thor
And the heart of our lord Taliessin determined the war."
-- Charles Williams. "Mount Badon"

[laraine]

So, did you figure it out? I don't know enough about the subject, but will take a guess in case someone missed this.

Was thinking that maybe the singers were overstrained, perhaps performing in many other roles at the same time.

Or maybe some religious people are suspicious of the role.

Or maybe a more untrained inexperienced group, which didn't have enough money to hire the best performers or those with just the right voice parts.

Still surprised those in charge would allow changes in the music.

C.

[John W Kennedy]

On 2013-07-28 02:23:10 +0000, laraine said:

> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:30:33 PM UTC-5, John W Kennedy wrote:
>> Seeing that Boito's "Nerone" is performed so little, why is it that,
>> almost from the very beginning, the role of Simon Mago has attracted
>> baritones who are physically incapable of singing it? It's not all that
>> difficult a part. There's nothing all that odd about the range or the
>> tessitura, but over and over again I hear in live recordings both the
>> top notes being moved down and the bottom notes being moved up,
>> sometimes to the point that entire passages are nearly recomposed. What
>> gives?
>

> So, did you figure it out? I don't know enough about the subject, but
> will take a guess in case someone missed this.
>
> Was thinking that maybe the singers were overstrained, perhaps
> performing in many other roles at the same time.
>
> Or maybe some religious people are suspicious of the role.
>
> Or maybe a more untrained inexperienced group, which didn't have enough
> money to hire the best performers or those with just the right voice
> parts.
>
> Still surprised those in charge would allow changes in the music.

This is something I've wondered about for decades, so I'm not expecting
to figure it out for myself.

And why would a third-rate baritone be recording arias from "Nerone" in
the first place? I just wish there were more recordings of Journet in
the role.

--
John W Kennedy
A proud member of the reality-based community.

[laraine]

Many musicians with the necessary large egos think they're first rate, and they might be correct. Someone judged 3rd rate today might be realized to have been 1st rate years from now. And no one wants to hear just one voice and interpretation either.

C.

[John W Kennedy]

But does this really extend to a "baritone" who can't produce just one
eighth-note high G? In a studio?

> C.
>
>> I just wish there were more recordings of Journet in
>> the role.

--
John W Kennedy

Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://www.SKenSoftware.com/Double%20Falshood

[laraine]

If the role requires it, I don't favor lowering it on an important recording.
Are you sure there is not another version of this opera...

I've been trying to figure out voice classifications myself.
Are you not a fan of a system such as "fach", which allows for some kinds of baritones to only be expected to reach the F# rather than G?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fach

[John W Kennedy]

It's a postumous work, completed by Toscanini et al. There's only ever
been one edition.

> I've been trying to figure out voice classifications myself.
> Are you not a fan of a system such as "fach", which allows for some
> kinds of baritones to only be expected to reach the F# rather than G?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fach

The article seems to describe more fachs than I have ever heard of, and
it hardly seems worth it to call someone a "baritone" who has only one
semitone higher than is expected of all basses (even amateur bass
choristers are expected to have a high F). But even if I accept it all,
why do a role you know you can't do?

> C.
>>
>>>> I just wish there were more recordings of Journet in
>>>> the role.


--
John W Kennedy

"I want everybody to be smart. As smart as they can be. A world of
ignorant people is too dangerous to live in."
-- Garson Kanin. "Born Yesterday"

[laraine]

But can many low basses really do a high F well, and for sustained amounts
of time?

> But even if I accept it all,
>
> why do a role you know you can't do?
>
>
>

Well, say the person had a nice voice like Journet, but not a good
range. It might still be worth hearing him sing.

C.

[John W Kennedy]

Judging from music obviously aimed at the church choir market, all of
them. (It's a pet peeve of mine; you never see a church soprano section
given a mandatory high C, or a tenor section given a high Bb, let alone
C, but basses are expected to go from low E, or even D, all the way up
to F.)

>> But even if I accept it all,
>> why do a role you know you can't do?
>>
> Well, say the person had a nice voice like Journet, but not a good
> range. It might still be worth hearing him sing.

--
John W Kennedy
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and
Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being
corrected."
-- G. K. Chesterton

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, August 2, 2013 11:18:24 AM UTC-4, John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 2013-08-02 02:16:01 +0000, laraine said:
> > On Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:53:50 AM UTC-5, John W Kennedy wrote:
> >> On 2013-07-31 02:54:21 +0000, laraine said:

> >>> I've been trying to figure out voice classifications myself.
> >>> Are you not a fan of a system such as "fach", which allows for some
> >>> kinds of baritones to only be expected to reach the F# rather than G?
>
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fach
>
> >> The article seems to describe more fachs than I have ever heard of, and
> >> it hardly seems worth it to call someone a "baritone" who has only one
> >> semitone higher than is expected of all basses (even amateur bass
> >> choristers are expected to have a high F).
>
> > But can many low basses really do a high F well, and for sustained amounts
> > of time?
>
> Judging from music obviously aimed at the church choir market, all of
> them. (It's a pet peeve of mine; you never see a church soprano section
> given a mandatory high C, or a tenor section given a high Bb, let alone
> C, but basses are expected to go from low E, or even D, all the way up
> to F.)

I don't recall any church choir music (outside Rachmaninoff and the other
Russians) that regularly calls for anything lower than G, with the occasional
F if you've got something with an unusual range like the Star-Spangled Banner.

Eb is usually the topmost note; I suppose there might again be the occasional
F if you've wandered into some uncongenial key.

[laraine]

You know, are we forgetting something....

Joyce diDinato - a piacere, to your liking -- she seems to change a lot when
repeating phrases, or in cadenzas, Rossini example:

http://sinfinimusic.com/uk/watch/2013/08/joyce-didonato-preparing-for-the-proms/

Could this be what is happening...

C.

[John W Kennedy]

From what I’m hearing (potholes in the melodic line, so to speak), I
can't seriously believe it's anything but naked fear of both high and
low notes. For what it's worth, I'm not a professional singer, but I
have sung many comprimario roles in low-level professional productions,
so I have /some/ feeling for these things.

--
John W Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

[laraine]

The extra effort at improv or ornamentation may have made the execution of it more difficult, but I was wondering if the idea of it resembled what you had been hearing in the Nerone examples, where you said the baritone had changed some notes.

C.