why do serious music lovers hate opera?
robert seigler
some years ago, this question was asked on the opera quiz, and it
continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
literature. why?
whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
so it's not their music that's hated, but the whole concept of opera.
why?
as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
bob seigler
Jon Bell
I can't say that I "hate" opera, because I have many operas in my CD
collection, and some of them are among my all-time favorites. But most of
them are not from the opera-house "standard repertoire." I have operas by
Haydn, Janacek, Thomson, Adams, Nielsen, Sallinen, Tubin, etc. I have
some of Mozart's operas and will probably get most of them eventually.
And I have two and a half Ring cycles. (If you've been reading some of
the other current threads in this group, you can probably guess where the
half-cycle comes from.)
But I don't have *any* of the standard Italian repertoire, except for some
videos taped from PBS broadcasts. For some reason, those operas simply
haven't "grabbed" me. Perhaps it's the 19th-century Italian romantic
style. I'm not a big fan of the romantic style in itself, and most of
the Romantic-period composers that I like either have some distinctive
"flavor" (e.g. the Russians) or else are crossing over into the "modern"
period (e.g. Mahler).
Maybe I could put it this way: I like classical-period music (Mozart,
Haydn, Beethoven) because of the "cleanness" of style, rhythmic vigor,
structure, etc. I like 20th-century music because of the incredible
variety of styles and interesting sonorities. I can enjoy many operas
from those periods just as pure music, without burying my nose in a
libretto or watching a video to follow the action.
But the standard Italian opera repertoire doesn't seem (to me) very
"interesting" from the harmonic or structural point of view. The
fundamental characteristic seems to me to be the emotional content, and
its expression in vocal display. To get into the emotions, I have to
*watch* what's happening; and I'm not strongly into vocal display in
itself.
--
Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu>
Adam Gott/usenet
(the following input comes from an opera neophyte)
It has taken we quite a while to appreciate opera (yet I used to like
punk rock, go figure). I still can't help but feeling that I missing
a lot because I seldom see an actual opera performance and my exposure
is limited to the snippets that I hear on the radio or the few cd's to
which I have access. I generally have no idea what it is that they
are saying (even when the opera is in English!) and rarely have no
idea what is actually happening in the opera. But some of these
people have some of the most amazing voices, many of which could never
be described with words. It took me a while to figure this out
because I used to change the station whenever an opera came on.
I consider myself a serious music lover (a few words that do leave
much to the imagination) in that I like almost all styles of music
(country and western are not music! :>).
==================================================
http://snake.srv.net/~got/adam.html - my homepage
==================================================
It has come to my attention that a certain fool is
now forging messages suposedly from myself.
==================================================
Alain
> And why do opera lovers hate serious music?
alain
Bradford Kellogg
Part of the problem could be that some people don't like singing. They
like instruments just fine, but perhaps the human voice bothers them.
Another possibility is the inherently programmatic quality of opera.
Maybe some people are uncomfortable with a story as a basis for music.
Absolute music might be easier for them, because it remains in a very
abstract realm.
Then there is the issue of staging. People have a variety of desires
when contemplating musical theater. Maybe some people just can't abide
the concept of musical theater in the first place. Maybe musical theater
is fine when it's light-hearted, but disconcerting when it touches on
tragedy. Maybe operas are too long (perhaps a correlation between
opera haters and Mahler haters?).
Then again, opera is designed for live audiences. If some people have
access only through recordings, they are missing quite a bit. Live
radio broadcasts don't serve them well either. Even television is a
compromise, since the sound is generally poor, and the camera work can
be annoying.
But I'm just guessing here.
---
Have an ice day... BK
Joe Sef
EGO = Waistline
To many singers showing up each other with too many critics 'opinionating'
themselves.
And the stuff is better on stage, which means VHS tape for most.
So why are Operas on VHS tape hard to get?
JOE
robert seigler wrote:
> some years ago, this question was asked on the opera quiz, and it
> continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
> several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
> literature. why?
>
> whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
> i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
> so it's not their music that's hated, but the whole concept of opera.
> why?
>
> as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
>
> bob seigler
Diane Wilson
In article <6imchk$1mb$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
babsd...@webtv.net says...
> as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
>
to accompany action on stage. When simply listening to the music, you're
not getting it all.
Because I truly detest the vocal style that is associated with opera.
To me, most opera singing is stilted and incredibly artificial.
Because in so many operas, the story lines are thin to the point of being
threadbare. If I want tragedy, I'll read a book. If I want comedy, I'll
read a book. If I want angst, I can bloody well write that myself.
I want music to take me to places where words can't go. Opera is music
imprisoned.
--
Diane Wilson | Marriage is really tough because
anon-...@anon.twwells.com | you have to deal with feelings
http://www.lava.net/~dewilson/ | and lawyers.
http://www.acm.org/chapters/trichi/ | --Richard Pryor
John Gavin
One reason I never took to Italian romantic opera is that I've never
been able to acquire a taste for operatic voices, which seem to me to be
unnaturally boated (with a view of projecting in large halls?). The
continual sound of one, and certainly two or three Puccinian/Verdian or
Wagnerian singers simply drives me up a wall.
On the other hand I love other types of voices which just seem more
natural to me e.g. Elly Ameling and delos Angeles (the most tolerable
opera singer in my opinion).
Jeff Wilson
>some years ago, this question was asked on the opera quiz, and it
>continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
>several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
>literature. why?
>
>whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
>i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
>so it's not their music that's hated, but the whole concept of opera.
>why?
>
>as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
>
>bob seigler
I know some very serious and talented musicians who love opera.
I myself, however, am in the camp of which you speak: I don't much
care for opera. This even extends to Mozart. I have over 2000
classical CDs, but the only operas I have are:
Mozart: Cosi & Zauberfloete
Gershwin: Porgy & Bess
Martinu: Julietta & The Greek Passion and a couple
of short operas
A guy I knew once described all vocal classical music as
either moaning (Renaissance) or shreiking (opera).
It's not only opera: it's vocal Classical and Romantic classical
music in general that I don't care for. I don't object to vocal
music in Josquin or Bach, or, off the other end, in Ives. I do
however really wish Bach had written 200-odd concerti and
suites instead of 200-odd cantatas. I find Ives' vocal music
to be downright wonderful stuff, though I'm not fond of
Schoenberg's vocal music. Come to think of it, Ives' vocal
music by itself constitutes more than half the classical vocal
music after Bach that I can really get into. One characteristic
these share is that they treat the voices as instruments rather
than as peacocks (ISTM). However, Mozart does that too,
but I rarely listen to his operas.
A couple of objections I often proffer are that the sopranos
hurt my ears and the tenors usually offend my sensibilities.
Nobody sane writes continuously for instruments at the shrill
upper extreme of their ranges: why is that considered so
wonderful in sopranos? It turns music into an unpleasant
athletic exhibit for me. Re tenors, I must have a personal
psychosis. Surely they can't mostly be the flaming and
idiotic egomaniacs that their execution suggests to me.
On the other hand, I very much enjoy the vocals in popular
music. Most jazz and pop singers don't shreik at the top of
their ranges, or at least not the ones I listen to. They also
seem to me much more at one with their music, as opposed
to their execution, than most classical singers. I've never
heard a classical singer who can do to me what Gladys
Knight or Janis Joplin does to me.
It's just a question of taste I guess. Someone else in this
thread mentioned his/her dislike of Romantic music in general.
I'm in sympathy with that myself. About the only composer
between the Classical and Early Modern periods that I
unreservedly enjoy is Brahms. Even Beethoven is sometimes
too full of himself for me to be able to ignore, though certainly
I love most of his music and don't deny his greatness. From
postings in this newsgroup, I gather it's a common dichotomy
for people to either prefer or disfavor Romantic music. I'm in
the disfavor camp myself. Music for me went to sleep, for the
most part, after Haydn, and re-awakened with Schoenberg
and Ives.
--
Please remove the two capital X's from my e-mail address before replying via e-mail.
(They are an attempt to thwart unsolicited commercial mail.)
richard hihn
Bradford Kellogg (kel...@atb.teradyne.com) wrote:
: Part of the problem could be that some people don't like singing. They
: like instruments just fine, but perhaps the human voice bothers them.
I have always loved singing (choral music, art song, etc.), but have
had a dislike for most opera, so it's not merely the human voice which
bothers me.
: Another possibility is the inherently programmatic quality of opera.
: Maybe some people are uncomfortable with a story as a basis for music.
: Absolute music might be easier for them, because it remains in a very
: abstract realm.
I'm not bothered by programmatic music in orchestral literature at
all. I think it may be that I perceive drama and music to be an
awkward combination (silly plots, repetitive dialogue, taking 20
minutes to die while singing, etc.).
The convention of applause after arias, sometimes not even waiting
until the last chord has finished sounding, I've always found
annoying, although I know it's expected. Imagine applauding the
development section of a symphony!
Dick Hihn (who realizes he's probably missing out on something good)
rkha...@adnc.com
I think the premise of the above question is simply not true.
It depends more on what the individual music lover likes and how his/her mind
responds to music. I have a friend who really loves music (though he is not a
classical music lover) and claims that non-vocal music does nothing for him.
I have noticed that analytical minds seem to prefer instrumental music with a
"regular" structure (e.g., symphonic sonata form) and for many of them opera
is more challenging because it has relatively less structure. The human voice
itself may also be part of the reason.
It would be interesting to find out the correlation between people who like
opera and who like the theater (and also the correlation between people who
dislike opera and the theater) as in this last medium the voice and the stage
play a fundamental role in conveying the story. By decoupling the music
factor, it would be of interest to determine if it is really the voice-stage
factor that some music lovers don't respond to or if there is something about
the music's structure (or lack thereof) that's at play.
Just an intriguing thought.
Ramon Khalona
Carlsbad, California
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robert seigler
to respond to my own question, i think the leading cause of this
situation is reflected by those who admit disliking operatic voices. it
seems ironic, when nowadays young listeners are begining to admire this
kind of performance technique, that there is still this attitude toward
singers who treat the voice as a virtuoso instrument. or perhaps the
trouble is too many flawed vituosi. there are a lot of bad singers, and
some of them sell an awful lot of records.
i came to opera out of a fascination for musical theater, while my
admiration for serious music came directly from listening to the
symphonic literature. i regard an opera as a drama in music, and wonder
if others fail to get the point by expecting music as drama. that may
explain why wagner gets more fans than verdi - he did, in fact, take a
symphonic approach in his mature works.
what most surprised me in the answers to this question is the hostility
toward all romantic music some posters mentioned. my own preferences
tend toward post-romantic music, but not to the exclusion of composers
like beethoven or berlioz. is romantic music now so completely out of
fashion?
bob seigler
John Grabowski
Jeff Wilson wrote:
> A guy I knew once described all vocal classical music as
> either moaning (Renaissance) or shreiking (opera).
I thought that was Woody Allen talking about sex. ;-)
John
--
The movies are so rarely great art, that if we can't appreciate great
trash, there is little reason to go.
--Pauline Kael
Bradford Kellogg
In article 7C9B...@nospam.bic.mni.mcgill.ca, Alain <al...@nospam.bic.mni.mcgill.ca> () writes:
>> And why do opera lovers hate serious music?
Turning the question around brings up an interesting point. I have also heard
that some opera lovers don't much care for concert music. Maybe the reverse
is true, where opera lovers have a passion for musical theater, but are dismayed
by the lack of a story, the lack of personalities, the lack of stars to cheer,
in a concert setting. Maybe a factor?
Operas give the audience a chance to cheer and applaud frequently throughout
the performance, making it more interactive. In a concert, no one is supposed
to applaud until the piece is over - never between movements. Something to do
with the whole theater experience? Pure music versus histrionics?
Bradford Kellogg CONTRACTOR
In article 1...@calvin.skidmore.edu, rh...@saims.skidmore.edu (richard hihn) writes:
>Bradford Kellogg (kel...@atb.teradyne.com) wrote:
>
>: Part of the problem could be that some people don't like singing. They
>: like instruments just fine, but perhaps the human voice bothers them.
>
>I have always loved singing (choral music, art song, etc.), but have
>had a dislike for most opera, so it's not merely the human voice which
>bothers me.
Strike one.
>: Another possibility is the inherently programmatic quality of opera.
>: Maybe some people are uncomfortable with a story as a basis for music.
>: Absolute music might be easier for them, because it remains in a very
>: abstract realm.
>
>I'm not bothered by programmatic music in orchestral literature at
>all.
Strike two.
>I think it may be that I perceive drama and music to be an
>awkward combination (silly plots, repetitive dialogue, taking 20
>minutes to die while singing, etc.).
Home run!
>The convention of applause after arias, sometimes not even waiting
>until the last chord has finished sounding, I've always found
>annoying, although I know it's expected. Imagine applauding the
>development section of a symphony!
You make some good points here. Some (well, many) opera plots are
indeed silly. Cavelleria Rusticana comes to mind. And the dialogue,
such as when Wotan leaves Brunnhilde on the rock - it takes them
half an hour to have a 2 minute conversation. And the applause!
I mentioned this in a previous post.
I think we need to suspend our disbelief, in a sense, and let the opera
be what it is, interactive performance art that includes some of the
most extraordinary music. Some don't work well even then, but some
others, well...
Tony Rothman
> as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
>
> bob seigler
I can agree with many of the opinions expressed in this thread. I don't
hate opera per se, and have many in my collection. However, it seems to
me that:
1) The standard repertoire as, eg, broadcast by the Met, or on the radio,
is extremely narrow.
In fact, I wouldn't call the Met an opera house at all; it is an economic
institution. Any provincial opera house in Germany has a far greater
repertoire. The Met is strictly Italian with a dose of Wagner. Their idea
of being adventurous is to stage Khovanshchina.
According to several sources only 10 percent of all operas ever written
have been performed. Some unknown operas have been mentioned in this
thread. There are dozens of wonderful ones. Martinu, who I think a
couple people mentioned,
wrote about a dozen operas, if I remember. There is the extraordinary
Oresteia of Tanyeev; Blood Wedding of Szokolay; Absalom and Eteri, a beautiful
opera of Paliashvili, is Georgia's national opera; never staged here. There
are even unknown Tchiakovsky operas--the Oprichnik is terrific.
Rimsky-Korsakov wrote 15 operas, at least five of which deserve to be in
the standard repetoire.
Nielsen, even Prokofiev's Fiery Angel rarely gets a hearing here. One can
go on and on.
2) The singing isn't the problem. Many people who like choral music don't
like opera. It seems to me that too much opera music is in the service of
the singer, rather than vice versa. Listening to a coloratura perform
vocal acrobatics gets as quickly tiring as listening to the Liszt
transcendental etudes. A little goes a long way.
3) Opera fans don't help by promoting the cult of the singer over the
music. This far exceeds the adoration of even the most famous pianists. I
know one guy who won't even speak to me because I don't like Wagner.
4) As several people have mentioned,the story lines in operas can be
pretty silly. Luckily most are in foreign languages and you can invent
your own plot as you go. It's usually better not to know what's going on.
--
Tony Rothman
UT Austin
Aaron
Gavin Tabor wrote:
> Actually, this is why I don't like operas translated into
> English. At least if its in Italian (I don't speak Italian) I
> can enjoy the music, without realising that the soprano is
> actually singing `I must leave you' 76 zillion times.
>
> Gavin
>
good point. for me this also extends to any English vocal music, Purcell comes to
mind...I like the music much more than the act/lyrics.
Janet Yandik
I wish people would NOT applaud during operas. It's annoying and
disrupts that flow -- not to mention drowning out some wonderful music.
If I were King of the Fo-r-r-r-r-rrrest, I would decree not clapping
except at the end of the acts.
Opus47
To me opera is part music, part theater. If you forget about the theater part
the music part is just about anchorred to singing. How many people who like
classical music like vocal music in general, much less opera singing
specifically?
Fred
HOWARD HELLER
-=> Quoting Janet Yandik to All <=-
JY> @FROM :evz...@prodigy.com
JY> N @SUBJECT:Re: why do serious music lovers hate oper
JY> N @ORIGIN :world
JY> N @UMSGID :<6ir4ub$3sq4$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
JY> N @UNEWSGR:01rec.music.classical
JY> I wish people would NOT applaud during operas. It's annoying and
JY> disrupts that flow -- not to mention drowning out some wonderful
JY> music. If I were King of the Fo-r-r-r-r-rrrest, I would decree not
JY> clapping except at the end of the acts.
When I attended music conservatory back in the seventies, somebody
scrawled the following in big letters on the wall of the men's room:
"NIXON CLAPS BETWEEN MOVEMENTS"
It was worth the price of five years' tuition. :-P
Regards,
Howard Heller
***************************************************
* Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations *
***************************************************
.. Engraving is, in brief terms, the art of scratch.
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
Eric Schissel
Tony Rothman (to...@einstein.ph.utexas.edu) wrote:
>repertoire. The Met is strictly Italian with a dose of Wagner. Their idea
>of being adventurous is to stage Khovanshchina.
I (of course) have to agree with this post... I would also mention
Wellesz, whose Bakhantinen was recently revived in Europe I believe, and
any number of likely very good Krenek operas.
And the .stunning. Oedipe of Enescu, which I don't think has been
mentioned yet in this thread; available on CD but has the Met done it
recently? (Maybe they have. I really don't remember.)
Well- ok, I can't quite agree. The Met's idea of being adventurous is to
stage Dvorak's Rusalka. Credit in those places, few though they are,
where credit .is. due.
-Eric Schissel
--
schi...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/schissel ICQ#7279016
standard disclaimer
Eric Schissel
robert seigler (babsd...@webtv.net) wrote:
>some years ago, this question was asked on the opera quiz, and it
>continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
>several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
>literature. why?
>whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
>i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
>so it's not their music that's hated, but the whole concept of opera.
>why?
Speaking only for myself- and I suspect others' answers differ- I love
opera. I love operas by Mozart, Prokofiev, Nielsen, Schoenberg, Respighi,
Wagner, and the little Haydn opera I've heard (I want to hear more). What
I cannot stand is RossiniVerdiPucciniBelliniDonizetti opera.
Much more than Mozart and much, much, much more than the other composers I
mention this is singers' opera, where all pretense of musical argument is
dropped for vocal acrobatics, and where even the musical argument that
wasn't dropped is merely an instrumental transcription of vocal acrobatics
(I'm exaggerating mightily, but your implication that I can't stand opera
because I can't stand Rossini .really. sticks in my craw.)
The occasional Rossini overture will have a brief episode of real depth
toward the end from which the composer will flee mightily. (Verdi, at
least, wrote a string quartet I enjoy; Rossini I am hard pressed at the
moment to name anything by that I like, though the late sins of old age
have not yet crossed my ears in large number so there's hope.)
I'm inclined to call the opera I'm most likely to enjoy "symphonic"
opera; the orchestra not only has a role, but there is an overall
sense and often real depth (not always of the depressing kind- joy and
grief are both consistent with frivolity and with depth- though
my favorite opera, The Fiery Angel, is depressing indeed) and a linear
direction to the goings-on. (And when this is absent, there is at least
something I treasure, such as the themes and motives of Parsifal-
for some reason, I ache, in a good way, when the Dresden Amen plays...)
On those occasions when I have tried a RVPBD... opera I have really not
sensed this. Which is never to say that I will not keep trying.
Your "giants" of opera are my "embarrassments" to it.
Eric Schissel
Diane Wilson (dewi...@pobox.com) wrote:
>In article <6imchk$1mb$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
>babsd...@webtv.net says...
>>
>Because in so many operas, the story lines are thin to the point of being
>threadbare. If I want tragedy, I'll read a book. If I want comedy, I'll
>read a book. If I want angst, I can bloody well write that myself.
Hrmph... and here I expected you to join me in my enjoyment of Fiery Angel
and Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District... :)
Eric Schissel
An interesting question. Not many, in my experience. And it was
a relatively late addition to my listening repertoire, I suppose;
I guess I've been listening to vocal music for about half or so of my
period of being seriously into classical music. (Lieder eluded me longer
than opera, curiously.)
Anyone else?
-Eric Schissel
Opus47 (opu...@aol.com) wrote:
--
ks dennis
Jeff Wilson (Xjmw...@hooked.netX) wrote:
: A couple of objections I often proffer are that the sopranos
: Nobody sane writes continuously for instruments at the shrill
: upper extreme of their ranges: why is that considered so
: wonderful in sopranos? It turns music into an unpleasant
: athletic exhibit for me. Re tenors, I must have a personal
: psychosis. Surely they can't mostly be the flaming and
: idiotic egomaniacs that their execution suggests to me.
I can identify substantially with your feelings about opera and Romantic
music.
Part of the problem for me has been the very wide operatic vibrato, and
the tendency of some singers to slide between notes unnecessarily. I prefer
singers with a clean, unaffected sound, though a controlled opening into
vibrato, and slides at appropriate places can be expressive.
Try listening to the soprano Felicity Lott. She's got an incredible voice, but
a nicely non-self-indulgent (!) style. She's performed a wide variety of music,
including Mozart, Schubert, etc., although she also performs 20th C. One of my
favourite of her recordings is her performance of Britten's "Les Illuminations"
on the double CD "The Complete Orchesteral Song Cycles of Benjamin Britten".
Just listen to the track "Villes" - stunning stuff. If you don't particularly
like vocal music, or even 20th C music, try this track and see if it changes
your views. I must say, though, that I didn't like Philip Langridge's voice
on this recording. He sometimes produces rather unmusical slides etc. Just
listen to the *awful* way he attacks the word "kept" in the "Nocturne" - and
I quite like the work.
Dawn Upshaw also has a very listenable voice.
I can't think of any tenors with a similar kind of "unaffected" style, but
would appreciate recommendations.
Ryan
ks dennis
Diane Wilson (dewi...@pobox.com) wrote:
: Because in so many operas, the story lines are thin to the point of being
: threadbare. If I want tragedy, I'll read a book. If I want comedy, I'll
: read a book. If I want angst, I can bloody well write that myself.
: I want music to take me to places where words can't go. Opera is music
: imprisoned.
: --
Although, surely you must admit that a musical setting of a good poem can
add something - not necessarily making the combination better than the poem
on its own, but highlighting aspects, like a good reading.
Ryan Mitchley
Gavin Tabor
Bradford Kellogg CONTRACTOR wrote:
>
> In article 1...@calvin.skidmore.edu, rh...@saims.skidmore.edu (richard hihn) writes:
> >Bradford Kellogg (kel...@atb.teradyne.com) wrote:
> >
> >I think it may be that I perceive drama and music to be an
> >awkward combination (silly plots, repetitive dialogue, taking 20
> >minutes to die while singing, etc.).
>
> Home run!
>
> >The convention of applause after arias, sometimes not even waiting
> >until the last chord has finished sounding, I've always found
> >annoying, although I know it's expected. Imagine applauding the
> >development section of a symphony!
>
> You make some good points here. Some (well, many) opera plots are
> indeed silly. Cavelleria Rusticana comes to mind. And the dialogue,
> such as when Wotan leaves Brunnhilde on the rock - it takes them
> half an hour to have a 2 minute conversation.
Actually, this is why I don't like operas translated into
English. At least if its in Italian (I don't speak Italian) I
can enjoy the music, without realising that the soprano is
actually singing `I must leave you' 76 zillion times.
Gavin
>
> Have an ice day... BK
--
Dr.Gavin Tabor
email : ga...@ic.ac.uk
home page : monet.me.ic.ac.uk/people/gavin/gavin.html
Department of Mechanical Engineering,
Imperial College,
London SW7 2BY
piper
[snip]
>i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
[snip]
And I'm equally sure that most of the people who for whatever reason
can't stand Verdi's later, greater operas (e.g. Otello, Aida, Un Ballo
in maschera, La Forza del destino) can't abide the very operatic
Requiem either. Some people just hate operatically-trained voices,
even when the singers' vibrati are not excessively wide and their
pitches are in tune. I'm not speaking for myself here, but I know
people who feel this way.
Michael
piper
On 7 May 1998 02:06:03 GMT, EVZ...@prodigy.com (Janet Yandik) wrote:
> I wish people would NOT applaud during operas. It's annoying and
>disrupts that flow -- not to mention drowning out some wonderful music.
[snip]
Your remark reminds me of when I was in High School of Performing Arts
and our teachers tried to forbid us from applauding ballet solos. Our
dance-major classmates appreciated our applause and resented the
efforts of the busybody faculty members. Singers also appreciate
applause. It just seems like too much for someone to try to forbid
audiences from showing their appreciation for a well-sung aria. So you
can continue to wish people would stop applauding during acts, but
unless you're willing to limit yourself to listening to recordings,
you'll just have to put up with it.
Now if they would only quit it with the throat-lozenge wrappers and
watches that beep every hour on the hour...
Michael
Paul Dormer
In article <6imchk$1mb$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
babsd...@webtv.net (robert seigler) wrote:
> some years ago, this question was asked on the opera quiz, and it
> continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
> several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
> literature. why?
>
> whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
> i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
> so it's not their music that's hated, but the whole concept of opera.
> why?
>
> as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
>
> bob seigler
>
You know, I can't say I've ever met a music lover who hates opera. I'm
always running into friends I know from concerts at operas and vice versa.
What I would like to know is why operas by modern composers tend to be
more acceptable to opera audiences than concert works by modern composers
are by concert audiences.
piper
My favorite currently-active operatic singer is Cecilia Bartoli, and I
also think she's one of the greatest musicians, living or dead, who
I've ever heard in either a performance or a recording. Her voice is
incredibly flexible, her intonation is impeccable, her vibrato is
never wobbly or obtrusive: she is a true bel canto singer in an age in
which few singers are even capable of singing verismo operas without
an inappropriate and stylistically unsound wobble (listen to the early
recordings of Puccini operas and you'll see how restrained-sounding
their vibrato was). And what's more, Bartoli's interpretations are
inspired and very clearly explicated to the audience through her
control of an expressive technique served by an amazing variety of
tone colors.
If you don't like operas, try listening to recordings of Bartoli with
piano accompaniment. A recital she performed in L.A. has been shown
repeatedly on the Bravo cable T.V. network in the U.S.
Michael
piper
On 7 May 98 06:46:51 GMT, schi...@adore.lightlink.com (Eric Schissel)
wrote:
>Speaking only for myself- and I suspect others' answers differ- I love
>opera. I love operas by Mozart, Prokofiev, Nielsen, Schoenberg, Respighi,
>Wagner, and the little Haydn opera I've heard (I want to hear more). What
>I cannot stand is RossiniVerdiPucciniBelliniDonizetti opera.
>
>Much more than Mozart and much, much, much more than the other composers I
>mention this is singers' opera, where all pretense of musical argument is
>dropped for vocal acrobatics, and where even the musical argument that
>wasn't dropped is merely an instrumental transcription of vocal acrobatics
>(I'm exaggerating mightily, but your implication that I can't stand opera
>because I can't stand Rossini .really. sticks in my craw.)
I disagree. Verdi's operas are through-composed - especially his late
operas. Otello and Aida as merely vocal acrobatics? It's all in the
service of the plot and characterization, as much as the Wagner you
love is.
And as for Rossini, I love his operas, but you need bel canto singers
(and instrumentalists!) to perform them well, and very few are around
nowadays. But there's another point: A couple of years ago, I saw an
interview with a good Italian conductor on RAI-2. He explained the
Rossini was in many ways the last BAROQUE composer, and that the
Doctrine of the Affections applies to his opera arias: each one
expresses one particular emotion which a character feels in relation
to what's happening in the plot. Vocal display? Sure! But there's a
rhyme and reason to it. I would cite La Cenerentola as a good example
of an opera with a coherent plot that is quite well served by the
music. Donizetti is from the next generation, so he comes out of
Rossini but is more Romantic. I think that the Donizetti operas I know
are very dramatic and, again, the vocal display expresses emotion.
Think of the Mad Scene from Lucia di Lamermoor. Is that just an excuse
for vocal (and flute) display, or is it a real attempt to musically
portray a person at her wits' end?
Do you dislike Carmen, too? That opera is full of vocal display and,
indeed, instrumental display. And I couldn't think of a more dramatic
opera.
[snip]
>I'm inclined to call the opera I'm most likely to enjoy "symphonic"
>opera; the orchestra not only has a role, but there is an overall
>sense and often real depth (not always of the depressing kind- joy and
>grief are both consistent with frivolity and with depth- though
>my favorite opera, The Fiery Angel, is depressing indeed) and a linear
>direction to the goings-on.
[snip]
And how is this not true of the late operas of Verdi and the mature
operas of Puccini? Tosca ain't exactly a barrel of laughs, and the
orchestra is pretty important in it, isn't it? (Though that "fake
execution" is pretty hard to believe.)
It's not really my place to argue about matters of taste with you. You
like what you like and dislike what you dislike. But my point isn't to
argue that I'm right and you're wrong; it's just that I think it
within the realm of possibility that you might find something to like
in these composers' operas if you look for different things in them
than what you've been looking for so far.
Michael
Mike Painter
In article <35520db4...@news.interport.net>, pi...@interport.net
(piper) wrote:
Don't forget the cellular telephones. We had one go off during Anne-Sophie
Mutter's Beethoven sonata cycle here last weekend and another the
following night when Wynton Marsalis was performing Stravinsky's
"Soldier's Tale" and his own "Fiddler's Tale."
What are people thinking?
Mike
To respond via e-mail, remove * from address.
Mike Painter
In article <199805080304...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
mark...@aol.com (Marksten) wrote:
> I would say that anyone who considers him/herself an opera hater cannot
> possibly be a serious music lover.
[SNIP]
> Almost every great composer wrote operas or aspired to do so. Is it any wonder
> that notable exceptions (or failures) include Brahms, Bruckner, and Schubert?
> Oh, yes...they're all Germans, and weren't we all taught (thank you, Virgil
> Thomson) that the Germans were the "smart" composers and all of those Italians
> wrote "easy" music, pretty tunes with a bunch of non-intellectual oom-pah
> accompaniments under them (of course, we don't disparage Mozart, Beethoven &
> Haydn using the Alberti bass in their piano sonatas!)?
[SNIP]
This may be true for Brahms and Bruckner but actually, Schubert *did*
write operas and other pieces for the theater, and starting at a very
early age, too. His opera "Alfonso und Estrella" was probably the first
German opera not containing spoken dialogue (predating Weber's "Euryanthe"
by a year). And he most certainly *aspired* to do so -- he felt he could
not be considered a real success unless he was a successful opera
composer.
Schubert's operas and other works for theater include:
Operas / Singspiele:
Alfonso and Estrella, D.732
Der Minnesanger (lost), D.981
Der vierjährige Posten, D.190
Des Teufels Lustschloss, D.84
Die Freunde von Salamanka, D.326
Die Verschworenen (Der häusliche Krieg), D.787
Die Zwillingsbrüder, D.647
Fernando, D.220
Fierrabras, D.796
Incomplete Operas / Singspiele or Fragments:
Adrast, D.137
Der Teufel als Hydraulicus
Der Spiegelritter, D.11
Die Burgschaft, D.435
Claudine von Villa Bella, D.239
Sakuntala, D.701
Sketches:
Der Graf von Gleichen (Schubert's death intervened), D.918
Rüdiger (sketches for two acts), D.791
"Sofie," D.982 (the name of the main character)
Melodrama:
Die Zauberharfe, D.664
Incidental Music:
Rosamunde, D.797
Arias for insertion into other composers' operas:
Duet and aria for Hérold's Das Zauberglöcken, D.723
The only one of his operas Schubert is known to have seen produced is "Die
Zwillingsbrüder" in 1820. The music was a huge success.
One of Schubert's problems was that in 1821 the Vienna Court Opera was
leased to the Italian impresario from the operas in Milan and Naples and
he basically took over the opera house in Vienna until 1827 or 1828
(during his some of Schubert's most productive years -- he died in 1828).
The Italian brought Rossini to Vienna to conduct. Rossini-mania swept
Vienna and German opera was not heard in Vienna during that time. (One
visitor to Vienna in 1827 wrote: "It has been said that the people of
Vienna are Rossini mad, but they are not onlky mad for him, but mad for
his worst imitations." Therefore, none of Schubert's later pieces, which
were written in German, was given a real production. This means, of
course, that he was unable to make any revisions to his that might have
become evident based on rehearsals of the works.
Another reason Schubert's operas are not so well known is that he seemed
to have been quite uncritical when it came to working with his
librettists. He worked with whatever he was given, and had no sense of
whether it would be theatrically successful or not. So weak librettos
resulted in somewhat weak results, but the music Schubert composed is
outstanding. Listening to the brass that opens the overture to "Alfonso
und Estrella" composed in 1821, you would think you were listening to
Bruckner -- Schubert was quite adventurous and ahead of his time in his
music for the theater, more so than in his symphonic output.
So maybe Brahms and Bruckner didn't write opera, but the same can't be
said about Schubert.
Gustav Yeung
Eric Schissel wrote:
> Speaking only for myself- and I suspect others' answers differ- I love
> opera. I love operas by Mozart, Prokofiev, Nielsen, Schoenberg, Respighi,
> Wagner, and the little Haydn opera I've heard (I want to hear more). What
> I cannot stand is RossiniVerdiPucciniBelliniDonizetti opera.
>
> Much more than Mozart and much, much, much more than the other composers I
> mention this is singers' opera, where all pretense of musical argument is
> dropped for vocal acrobatics, and where even the musical argument that
> wasn't dropped is merely an instrumental transcription of vocal acrobatics
> (I'm exaggerating mightily, but your implication that I can't stand opera
> because I can't stand Rossini .really. sticks in my craw.)
>
>
> I'm inclined to call the opera I'm most likely to enjoy "symphonic"
> opera; the orchestra not only has a role, but there is an overall
> sense and often real depth (not always of the depressing kind- joy and
> grief are both consistent with frivolity and with depth- though
> my favorite opera, The Fiery Angel, is depressing indeed) and a linear
> direction to the goings-on. (And when this is absent, there is at least
> something I treasure, such as the themes and motives of Parsifal-
> for some reason, I ache, in a good way, when the Dresden Amen plays...)
> On those occasions when I have tried a RVPBD... opera I have really not
> sensed this. Which is never to say that I will not keep trying.
>
> Your "giants" of opera are my "embarrassments" to it.
>
> -Eric Schissel
>
To me, Italian operas are a bunch of showpieces for singers. Non-Italians
especially Wagner's tend to integrate voice and orchestra (and staging)
tightly. The story, the music and the voice are equally important and they
complement each other. While the mastery of singers do help, it is really not
necessary. Therefore a modest production of Mozart opera could produce
wonderful music.
My Salome experience could be a good example. I don't understand German well
enough, but when I heard the repeated single notes from the solo cello, I know
that the Executioner was sharpening the sword to chop off Jokanaan's head.
Salome's repeated phrase represent her stubborn request for Jokanaan's
head....
Gustav
--
-------------------------
Gustav Yeung Kwong Fung
Unix Specialist, Mandarin Communication Ltd.
Certified AIX Support Professional
Certified RS/6000 SP Specialist
(Please remove NOSPAM when replying)
gus...@asiaonline.net
Janet Yandik
>>Don't forget the cellular telephones. We had one go off during Anne-
Sophie
Mutter's Beethoven sonata cycle here last weekend and another the
following night when Wynton Marsalis was performing Stravinsky's
"Soldier's Tale" and his own "Fiddler's Tale."
What are people thinking?<<
Ha! Don't get me started on THOSE people at the Kennedy Center.
I have fantacized about confiscating their *!@#ing beeping watches and
ringing cellphones and smashing them with a large hammer as they watch
helplessly. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!
Maybe that other guy is right. I shouldn't go to live performances.
:)
Marksten
I would say that anyone who considers him/herself an opera hater cannot
possibly be a serious music lover.
The posted question - and many of the responses to the same - seem to divide
classical listeners into two catagories: stupid people who like all of that
operatic "screaming," and intelligent sorts for whom music must be a deep
mental exercise to be enjoyed at the highest levels.
This is so much poppycock. I suggest that those who find opera and/or singing
repulsive or below their appreciation level get a grip and make the effort to
learn what is in this art form that makes it both popular AND intellectually
satisfying. None of us sprang fully formed in our appreciation of the classics.
Vocal music is simply another challenge to face...and the rewards are there to
be had.
The trouble people have stems from 1) the language barrier and 2) the fact that
this music is not considered to be "absolute" in that it's tied to the stage
machinery. I would remind you that many of the greatest strides in
compositional form were made through the lowly forms of opera (and other vocal
forms) where composers felt the freedom to break the rules (and new ground)
because they could count on the tenor stamping his foot or the audience
clapping over some compositional indiscretion (I'm speaking metaphorically
here, of course).
Almost every great composer wrote operas or aspired to do so. Is it any wonder
that notable exceptions (or failures) include Brahms, Bruckner, and Schubert?
Oh, yes...they're all Germans, and weren't we all taught (thank you, Virgil
Thomson) that the Germans were the "smart" composers and all of those Italians
wrote "easy" music, pretty tunes with a bunch of non-intellectual oom-pah
accompaniments under them (of course, we don't disparage Mozart, Beethoven &
Haydn using the Alberti bass in their piano sonatas!)?
Someone in this thread complained about opera plots being unbelieveable, citing
Cavalleria rusticana as an example. Gee, I always thought that Cav was based on
a true story. Sure...Il Trovatore has a fairly convoluted plot...I'd compare
its performance to that of Bach's St. Matthew Passion where we're to believe
that the Evangelist comes to life and narrates a very pictorial story...and is
constantly interrupted by a chorus, orchestra and boys choir...not to mention a
bunch of singers stopping the narrative of the story to sing arias to comment
on the situation. I'd say you have to suspend disbelief to enjoy either the
Verdi or the Bach.
One needent cite Moses und Aron, Lulu or the works of Schrecker to find operas
that are intellectually challenging and stimulating. Verdi's Don Carlo, Otello
or Boccanegra are good examples...there is much truth about the human condition
to be found in Rigoletto, Ballo and yes, La traviata!
The works of Wagner appeal to the intellectual because they are challenging,
harmonically adventurous, well-constructed pieces. They also happen to be VOCAL
music...music that would never have existed had Wagner not found his
inspiration in the WORDS of the great myths and sought to bring such to life
through the operatic medium...or do we all evaluate his worth as a composer on
the strength of his 2 symphonies and the piano works?
I know I'm really going on here, but this question seems so uninformed to me
that I really couldn't believe it had been asked.
Trust me - if you make the effort, you'll be rewarded. But be prepared to
surrender much more of yourself to find the pleasure and challenge in opera
than you ever had to surrender to appreciate the "absolutes." If you're not up
to it, c'est la vie...
As Schoenberg said: "there's plenty of great music still to be written in C
Major." As Brahms said of The Blue Danube Waltz: "I wish I had written that."
Get the point?
Mark Stenroos
piper
On Thu, 07 May 1998 14:21:44 -0700, mjp*@sirius.com (Mike Painter)
wrote:
>Don't forget the cellular telephones.
[snip]
I hate cellular telephones. I think that some places, like trains and
planes, should be off-limits to phones. People SHOULD be incommunicado
at times!
Michael
piper
On Fri, 08 May 1998 03:11:13 +0800, Gustav Yeung
<gus...@NOSPAMasiaonline.net> wrote:
>To me, Italian operas are a bunch of showpieces for singers. Non-Italians
>especially Wagner's tend to integrate voice and orchestra (and staging)
>tightly.
And Verdi (esp. late Verdi) and Puccini don't?
> The story, the music and the voice are equally important and they
>complement each other. While the mastery of singers do help, it is really not
>necessary.
Try listening to Wagner with bad singers (esp. Heltentenors) and see
if it's not necessary.
>Therefore a modest production of Mozart opera could produce
>wonderful music.
Not if the singers are bad. Though Wagner is much harder on the voice.
>
>My Salome experience could be a good example. I don't understand German well
>enough, but when I heard the repeated single notes from the solo cello, I know
>that the Executioner was sharpening the sword to chop off Jokanaan's head.
>Salome's repeated phrase represent her stubborn request for Jokanaan's
>head....
Which Verdi operas have you seen? Which Puccini operas?
Michael
Tom Farrell
Excellent post. My personal theory is that as Italian opera
(particularily Puccini, Verdi etc) becomes more and more popular, our
friends the "serious music lovers" run from it in horror.
One has to distinguish oneself from the horde after all...
Tom
MSten4MHS
>This may be true for Brahms and Bruckner but actually, Schubert *did*
write operas and other pieces for the theater, <
Yes...I was including Schubert inn the "failures" category. I own recorordings
of Fierrabras & Alfonso und Estrella, and I used to own the DGG Lp of
Salamanka.
These operas are all failures as operas, though they contain some nice tunes.
Mark Stenroos
Lionel Tacchini
Basically intelligent and interesting stuff, but I can't resist
contradicting as much of it as I can, so ...
> I would say that anyone who considers him/herself an opera hater cannot
> possibly be a serious music lover.
True. Serious music lovers would never waste enough time with opera to
come to hate it ;-)
> The posted question - and many of the responses to the same - seem to divide
> classical listeners into two catagories: stupid people who like all of that
> operatic "screaming," and intelligent sorts for whom music must be a deep
> mental exercise to be enjoyed at the highest levels.
>
> This is so much poppycock. I suggest that those who find opera and/or
singing
> repulsive or below their appreciation level get a grip and make the effort
to
> learn what is in this art form that makes it both popular AND intellectually
> satisfying. None of us sprang fully formed in our appreciation of the
classics.
> Vocal music is simply another challenge to face...and the rewards are there
to
> be had.
I certainly agree with this, still, you'll find plenty of people (myself
included) who love some forms of vocal music, be it medieval polyphony,
Lieder etc ... and simply can't stand much of opera.
> The trouble people have stems from 1) the language barrier
That's the biggest problem. I didn't start liking Wagner or any kind of
Lieder before I could understand the words without looking at the translation.
> and 2) the fact that
> this music is not considered to be "absolute" in that it's tied to the stage
> machinery.
And also the fact that listening to an opera on CD at home is by definition
missing half of it.
I don't enjoy listening to Mozart's Figaro, but I loved watching it on TV.
Had I been in the theater, though, the language problem would have
considerably limited my pleasure.
> Almost every great composer wrote operas or aspired to do so. Is it any
wonder
> that notable exceptions (or failures) include Brahms, Bruckner, and
Schubert?
Schubert did write operas and guess what Bruckner intended to do after the
9th ... He had plans to write some sort of religious opera !
Can you imagine a Brucknerian Parsifal ? (I almost feel half of the
newsgroup shuddering reading this ...)
> Oh, yes...they're all Germans,
Mozart, Weber, Wagner, Richard Strauss ... (I took the liberty of lumping
Germans and Austrians together, since you counted Bruckner as German)
But yes, for some reasons, I prefer their operas to anything I've heard
from their Italian counterparts. I don't really consider Wagner's music as
opera either.
> and weren't we all taught (thank you, Virgil
> Thomson) that the Germans were the "smart" composers
Nonsense. The only smart composers had names like Perotin, de la Halle,
Lescurel, de Vitry, Machaut, Binchois, Dufay, Desprez, Janequin, Lejeune,
Gaultier, Gallot, Couperin, Charpentier, Debussy, Boulez ... ;-)
>and all of those
Italians
> wrote "easy" music, pretty tunes with a bunch of non-intellectual oom-pah
> accompaniments under them (of course, we don't disparage Mozart, Beethoven &
> Haydn using the Alberti bass in their piano sonatas!)?
>
> Someone in this thread complained about opera plots being unbelieveable,
citing
> Cavalleria rusticana as an example. Gee, I always thought that Cav was based
on
> a true story. Sure...Il Trovatore has a fairly convoluted plot...I'd compare
> its performance to that of Bach's St. Matthew Passion where we're to believe
> that the Evangelist comes to life and narrates a very pictorial story...and
is
> constantly interrupted by a chorus, orchestra and boys choir...not to
mention a
> bunch of singers stopping the narrative of the story to sing arias to
comment
> on the situation. I'd say you have to suspend disbelief to enjoy either the
> Verdi or the Bach.
Well, religion always stole everything it could from the theater (and then,
from opera) and made it worse to attract even bigger audiences, so your
complaints about Bach's passions are bound to be justified.
And as to be believable, this is something that cannot be expected from
any religion whatsoever. Reality just doesn't sell well enough.
Sacred music ceased to be music sometime in the 16th century.
There was that guy who wanted the words to be made understandable again
and that did it in. It went back to an instrument of propaganda.
> One needent cite Moses und Aron, Lulu or the works of Schrecker to find
operas
> that are intellectually challenging and stimulating. Verdi's Don Carlo,
Otello
> or Boccanegra are good examples...there is much truth about the human
condition
> to be found in Rigoletto, Ballo and yes, La traviata!
I can't stand the bloody tunes, just can't ... no matter how good the
rest might be. It's not limited to purely Italian opera.
Can't stand much of the silly duos, trios etc in Rienzi or the Dutchman
either, not to talk about the "Summ summ summ ..." crap.
> The works of Wagner appeal to the intellectual because they are challenging,
> harmonically adventurous, well-constructed pieces. They also happen to be
VOCAL
> music...music that would never have existed had Wagner not found his
> inspiration in the WORDS of the great myths and sought to bring such to life
> through the operatic medium...or do we all evaluate his worth as a composer
on
> the strength of his 2 symphonies and the piano works?
Well, as I said before, it's not opera. I think he saw it this way too.
> I know I'm really going on here, but this question seems so uninformed to me
> that I really couldn't believe it had been asked.
It was not uninformed. There are so many exclusive admirers of opera OR
the rest of classical music that wondering why is certainly legitimate.
Just like Bon Jovi and Motorhead fans are usually mutually exclusive
the same way (count me on the Motorhead side, btw. I'll insist on this,
because it's an irrefutable proof of the superiority of my musical
judgment).
> Trust me - if you make the effort, you'll be rewarded. But be prepared to
> surrender much more of yourself to find the pleasure and challenge in opera
> than you ever had to surrender to appreciate the "absolutes." If you're not
up
> to it, c'est la vie...
There's one major thing you've forgotten all along : it's so much fun
just bashing the damn thing. And it's so easy. I don't think I'll ever
be able to resist it ...
>As Brahms said of The Blue Danube Waltz: "I wish I had written
that."
>
> Get the point?
Yes, he was thinking of copyright.
Lionel Tacchini
(just being unfair for fun today)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Eric Schissel
to piper:
As I said, I'll keep listening- it's just possible I've been unlucky so
far.
to Mr. Farrell:
oh, so .that's. why I can't stand these works- it's because I want to feel
superior! Thank you for explaining my reaction to me. I can't tell you
how much help you've been. (Feel free to visit my circular file
anytime...)
to marksten:
I don't know why you posted and emailed to me a post which had nothing to
do with anything I wrote (though I apologize for emailing you in return
such a harsh response to it). But calling someone whose favorite opera is
by Prokofiev a fan of German opera certainly seems as idiotic as you were
accusing me of being, and since you .are. a much better reader than that
and moreover much smarter, I'll assume that, despite having sent your post
to me directly, you weren't actually responding to me.
-Eric Schissel
Mike Painter
In article <199805081349...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
mste...@aol.com (MSten4MHS) wrote:
I wasn't really concerned with whether Schubert's operas were failures or
not. It seemed to me that the main point you were making was "that anyone
who considers him/herself an opera hater cannot be a classical music
lover" (a point I will not disagree with). In support of that argument you
said that all the major composers wrote operas or aspired to.
Given the fact that Schubert did so much work with the theater and that he
"aspired" to be a composer of serious opera, it seemed to me his example
was additional evidence for your proposition, *in spite of* his notable
lack of success. That is why I was so surprised to see him listed under
your exceptions. (Maybe "Mahler" would have been a better example instead
-- how much did he write for the theater?)
Given that whole context, to me at least, your use of the word "failure"
meant "failure to write opera" not "failure as an opera writer."
Most people aren't aware of Schubert's work for the stage, except the
music to "Rosamunde." There are at least 10 other opera/theater overtures
which are very rarely performed, even though they contain just as much
wonderful music as "Rosamunde" or "In the Italian Style." In the last few
years Schubert's theater work has been undergoing a serious re-evaluation
and people are discovering that there is lots more "there" than they knew
existed. The same is true for his other works as well (notably the music
for piano 4 hands and many of the Lieder) and he is slowly shedding his
image as being a "lightweight."
po...@hotmail.com
In article <6inn7d$m...@steadfast.teradyne.com>,
kel...@atb.teradyne.com wrote:
>
> In article 1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net, babsd...@webtv.net (robert
seigler) writes:
> >some years ago, this question was asked on the opera quiz, and it
> >continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
> >several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
> >literature. why?
> >
> >whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
> >i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
> >so it's not their music that's hated, but the whole concept of opera.
> >why?
> >
> >as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
>
> like instruments just fine, but perhaps the human voice bothers them.
Studies have shown, according to a recent story on NPR, that nothing will
prompt a listener to DIVE for the off switch on his radio more than one thing:
and that one thing happens to be the sound of the "operatic soprano voice".
That (and the popularity of the Republican party) is proof positive, IMO,
of the utter stupidity of the human race, because there is scarcely a more
beautiful sound imaginable.
ciao,
John
MSten4MHS
>>But calling someone whose favorite opera is
by Prokofiev a fan of German opera certainly seems as idiotic as you were
accusing me of being, and since you .are. a much better reader than that
and moreover much smarter, I'll assume that, despite having sent your post
to me directly, you weren't actually responding to me.<<
No, I wasn't responding directly to you. Sorry about that.
BTW - have you heard Gergiev's new "Betrothal in a Monastery"? Excellent opera
& recording.
Mark Stenroos
Michael Kagalenko
piper (pi...@interport.net) wrote in article <35520fcd...@news.interport.net>
]My favorite currently-active operatic singer is Cecilia Bartoli, and I
]also think she's one of the greatest musicians, living or dead, who
]I've ever heard in either a performance or a recording. Her voice is
]incredibly flexible, her intonation is impeccable, her vibrato is
]never wobbly or obtrusive: she is a true bel canto singer in an age in
]which few singers are even capable of singing verismo operas without
]an inappropriate and stylistically unsound wobble (listen to the early
]recordings of Puccini operas and you'll see how restrained-sounding
]their vibrato was). And what's more, Bartoli's interpretations are
]inspired and very clearly explicated to the audience through her
]control of an expressive technique served by an amazing variety of
]tone colors.
All that, and she is cute, too.
Bradford Kellogg
In article 07059814...@ppp-asft05--140.sirius.net, mjp*@sirius.com (Mike Painter) writes:
>
>Don't forget the cellular telephones. We had one go off during Anne-Sophie
>Mutter's Beethoven sonata cycle here last weekend and another the
>following night when Wynton Marsalis was performing Stravinsky's
>"Soldier's Tale" and his own "Fiddler's Tale."
>
>What are people thinking?
They aren't. That's the problem.
---
Alan Swindells
An interesting thread. I, like many of the contributors have very
little opera in my collection. Apart from Wagner, Mozart and
Puccini (Boheme) there is virtually nothing from the operatic
mainstream. I do, however, have operas by Alwyn, Berkeley (M),
Birtwistle, Britten, Henze, Lehar (!), Mussorgsky, Shostokovich,
Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Tippett. And others.
It cannot be a dislike of singing, as one contributor supposed,
as I have, for example, over 75 CDs of Schubert Lieder. Looking
over my shelves I suggest it my be a general lack of sympathy
with the Italian Musical sensibility as I have /very/ little
Italian music post Monteverdi. (All I can find is the Boheme
just mentioned, some Respighi and a disc of Petrassi.)
--
Regards: Alan * alan...@argonet.co.uk *
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Simon Roberts
po...@hotmail.com wrote:
: That (and the popularity of the Republican party) is proof positive, IMO,
: of the utter stupidity of the human race, because there is scarcely a more
: beautiful sound imaginable.
In the 1970s BBC Radio 3 would regularly broadcast live Wagner
performances from Bayreuth or wherever; on the basis of that I would have
to say that your last clause requires hefty (as it were) modification!
Simon
Simon Roberts
Lionel Tacchini (lionel....@amc.de) wrote:
: In article <199805080304...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
: mark...@aol.com (Marksten) wrote:
: > The trouble people have stems from 1) the language barrier
: That's the biggest problem. I didn't start liking Wagner or any kind of
: Lieder before I could understand the words without looking at the translation.
I wonder; perhaps I'm just weird, but if an opera doesn't work merely as
music, I don't care what the words are; and if it does, I can happily
listen to it as music, with the voice and words simply part of the music.
Sure, it helps to know what's going on, but I would find it difficult to
believe that unfamiliarity with the language deters anyone. Does the
appeal of Mozart's Requiem vary with one's understanding of the texts
there?
[snip]
: > that are intellectually challenging and stimulating. Verdi's Don Carlo,
: Otello
: > or Boccanegra are good examples...there is much truth about the human
: condition
: > to be found in Rigoletto, Ballo and yes, La traviata!
: I can't stand the bloody tunes, just can't ... no matter how good the
: rest might be. It's not limited to purely Italian opera.
: Can't stand much of the silly duos, trios etc in Rienzi or the Dutchman
: either, not to talk about the "Summ summ summ ..." crap.
Quite; you don't think these things work as music (see above).
Simon
Simon Roberts
Mike Painter (mjp*@sirius.com) wrote:
: Most people aren't aware of Schubert's work for the stage, except the
: music to "Rosamunde." There are at least 10 other opera/theater overtures
: which are very rarely performed, even though they contain just as much
: wonderful music as "Rosamunde" or "In the Italian Style." In the last few
: years Schubert's theater work has been undergoing a serious re-evaluation
: and people are discovering that there is lots more "there" than they knew
: existed. The same is true for his other works as well (notably the music
: for piano 4 hands and many of the Lieder) and he is slowly shedding his
: image as being a "lightweight."
Since I, like most people, I think, know Schubert through his piano music,
chamber music, symphonies and songs, I've never understood how he obtained
an image as a "lightweight"; but I must say, based on what I've heard of
his operas, that if they ever catch on it will enhance, rather than
detract from, that misleading image. I'm afraid I completely agree with
Mark's estimation of them (except I don't think the tunes are memorable).
Simon
JanRosen
Hi all,
I haven't been able to follow up on all of this thread, but the question
occurs to me and what should be asked is:
Why SHOULDN'T serious music lovers LOVE opera?
I consider myself a serious music lover, with season ticket subscriptions to
the National Symphony Orchestra AND Washington Opera, not to mention a huge
collection of opera and instruemental classical music CD's. Yep, you can say I
am a serious music lover AND an opera buff. I have never personally met a
single serious music lover who denigrates opera. Serious music lovers should
be able to love both. If they don't, its okay with me.
Cheers,
Janice
HenryFogel
I don't think that all serious music lovers hate opera. Different music lovers
have different tastes -- some whom I know love chamber music but don't care for
symphonic music.
I consider myself a serious music lover, and I care extensively about
symphonic, operatic, chamber and instrumental music -- and respond to it all.
It is worth noting that most great musicians respond to a wide range of music
as well. Many instrumental musicians listen to opera, and many conductors of
course work in both the operatic and symphonic arenas.
Henry Fogel
Jose Oscar Marques
On Fri, 08 May 1998 21:27:16 BST Alan Swindells <alan...@argonet.co.uk>
wrote in article <na.672f124843....@argonet.co.uk>:
>I suggest it my be a general lack of sympathy
>with the Italian Musical sensibility as I have /very/ little
>Italian music post Monteverdi. (All I can find is the Boheme
>just mentioned, some Respighi and a disc of Petrassi.)
I recommend Gian Francesco Malipiero as a composer well worth
investigating because he looks back to the golden age of Italian music.
The symphonies in Marco Polo aren't very well played but convey the
substance of the music. Also the string quartets are remarkable.
--
Jose Oscar Marques
(to reply by e-mail remove the "X" from my address)
Margaret Mikulska
Mike Painter wrote:
> This may be true for Brahms and Bruckner but actually, Schubert *did*
> write operas and other pieces for the theater, and starting at a very
> early age, too. His opera "Alfonso und Estrella" was probably the first
> German opera not containing spoken dialogue (predating Weber's "Euryanthe"
> by a year).
Oh no, first German operas without spoken dialogues predate Schubert's
by
many years. There was a somewhat short-lived movement to create a
"real",
serious German opera (as opposed to Singspiel) in the 1770s. The first
work of this kind was "Alceste" by Anton Schweitzer with the libretto by
Wieland; the next, "Guenther von Schwarzburg" by Ignaz Holzbauer. (The
latter
is recorded on CPO.)
-Margaret
Lionel Tacchini
In article <6j08d4$e5v$2...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts) wrote:
>
> Lionel Tacchini (lionel....@amc.de) wrote:
> : In article <199805080304...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> : mark...@aol.com (Marksten) wrote:
>
> : > The trouble people have stems from 1) the language barrier
>
> : That's the biggest problem. I didn't start liking Wagner or any kind of
> : Lieder before I could understand the words without looking at the
translation.
>
> music, I don't care what the words are; and if it does, I can happily
> listen to it as music, with the voice and words simply part of the music.
That's not enough. I remember having that sort of conversation with a friend
who didn't understand enough English to really follow what his favourite
pop bands were singing and still was giving me the same sort of argumentation
("if it works as music ..."). I never could really convince him until the day
he started raving about some French band and the importance of the words
to their songs and how much they added to the music itself ...
> Sure, it helps to know what's going on,
In many cases it does not only help, it adds the crucial element that
makes the whole thing worth listening to : the bitter irony of "Treue bis
zum Grabe" in "Die Kraehe" from Schubert's Winterreise, for instance, not
to talk about the fact that these 4 words make the link to the rest of the
cycle - miss that and the whole song is pointless.
(if I were to go on with my easy opera bashing, I'd pretend opera lovers
don't care if it's pointless, but let's leave that).
> but I would find it difficult to
> believe that unfamiliarity with the language deters anyone. Does the
It does especially when the music already doesn't appeal to you all that much
at first. I never had the patience to go through Winterreise before I could
actually understand it.
I force-fed myself Das Rheingold and Die Walkuere without ever coming to
really like it. Here the music was not responsible for it, but I would
find it very difficult to enjoy much of Die Walkuere without understanding
everything that gets said at the very moment it is pronounced.
> appeal of Mozart's Requiem vary with one's understanding of the texts
> there?
Yes, certainly. I probably couldn't stand listening to it at all if I were
to understand it. This is one of the reasons why I can't enjoy Bach's Passions
or cantatas (the other reason being that abominable lutheran choral thing -
this I reject on purely musical grounds, I just hate it).
On the other hand, I love Ockeghem's masses ... I make sure I never read
the translation, it might spoil my pleasure forever (especially since
it's always the same text ...).
Still, most of the music of the Mozart Requiem conveys its point without
requiring complete understanding of the text, because it is structured and
abstract music that stands on its own, not tailored to any action.
>
> [snip]
> : > that are intellectually challenging and stimulating. Verdi's Don Carlo,
> : Otello
> : > or Boccanegra are good examples...there is much truth about the human
> : condition
> : > to be found in Rigoletto, Ballo and yes, La traviata!
>
> : I can't stand the bloody tunes, just can't ... no matter how good the
> : rest might be. It's not limited to purely Italian opera.
> : Can't stand much of the silly duos, trios etc in Rienzi or the Dutchman
> : either, not to talk about the "Summ summ summ ..." crap.
>
> Quite; you don't think these things work as music (see above).
They work as music (music I don't like, I must admit), but I just wouldn't
want them there, even if I liked them as pure music. Do you remember those
3rd rate films they used to make back in the 40s-50s (there are plenty of
German ones of that sort, but I'm not sure how bad it was in other countries)
where the action would stop every 15 mn or so and one or several of the
main characters would start singing ?
(most of the time the young handsome guy would sing something to
his future conquest). At the end of the film, you could be sure that
everything would get back together and they would all sing ...
They had silly songs written by the metter for those.
Well, that's about how many of those duets (finally found the proper word)
or tercets work on me. I almost feel like getting up and making tea when they
happen (yes, those really "happen" to me), as I do when the 10 mn adverts
block come in the middle of a film ...
Lionel Tacchini
Edward A. Cowan
Actually, the first German opera was created a long time before 1770, namely
in 1627, with Heinrich Schütz's _Dafne_, libretto by Martin Opitz. Alas, we
have no idea about whether this was entirely with music or if it had dialogue
between musical numbers, as the music has entirely disappeared. (The
unpublished score was destroyed by fire during the Battle of Torgau in the
Seven Years' War.) The libretto has been reprinted several times, including in
the critical edition of the works of Opitz, edited by George Schultz-Behrend,
and published by the Stuttgarter Literatur-Verein. --E.A.C.
Roberto Maria Avanzi
Mike Painter wrote:
>
> In article <35520db4...@news.interport.net>, pi...@interport.net
> (piper) wrote:
>
> > Now if they would only quit it with the throat-lozenge wrappers and
> > watches that beep every hour on the hour...
>
> Don't forget the cellular telephones. We had one go off during Anne-Sophie
> Mutter's Beethoven sonata cycle here last weekend and another the
> following night when Wynton Marsalis was performing Stravinsky's
> "Soldier's Tale" and his own "Fiddler's Tale."
>
> What are people thinking?
Well, yesterday evening I was at the Zeche Zollverein in Essen to hear a
chamber music concert with Schubert's Quartettsatz, Wolfgang Amadeus Rihm's
SQ#1, LvB's op 59 #3 and after the pause Brahms' Klavierquintett.
Performers were the Leipziger Streichquartett and Claudius Tanski.
As an aside, the performance was very good, some pieces have been
performed breathtakingly (Rihm and Beethoven especially) AND the
best music of the evening was the Rihm. They managed to make Brahms
NOT boring, which is also a remarkable achievement.
Before the concert the recording producer of the Leipziger told us to
try to be quiet, to turn off digital watches and cell phones, because
the strange things hangin' were called mikes and the performance was meant
to be recorded. We heard not only the standard coughing, but also people
clapping at the end of the first mvt of the Beethoven (and, NO, it is not a
one movement work), and even a falling coin, then rolling across the hall
exactly at the beginning of the third mvt. I could read the horror in the
eyes of the first violin... Oh yes, and also the noise of paper of sweeties
was a constant background.
During the break, the girl I was amiably chatting with and I agreed that
some people try to cough louder during the loudest moments of the music,
just to make sure that they can be heard. Moreover recording equipment
simply encourages these people. The simply want to buy the CD later and
tell the friends "and, now, you can hear ME". Reminds me of people
cramming behind a TV announcer to say hi mom hi dad. Depressing.
Cheers
Roberto
_/_/ Roberto Maria Avanzi
/_/ Institut für Experimentelle Mathematik / Universität GHS Essen
_/ Ellernstraße 29 / 45326 Essen / Germany
/ Phone: +49-201-32064-37, Fax: +49-201-32064-68
John Grabowski
Roberto Maria Avanzi wrote:
> Before the concert the recording producer of the Leipziger told us to
> try to be quiet, to turn off digital watches and cell phones, because
> the strange things hangin' were called mikes and the performance was meant
> to be recorded. We heard not only the standard coughing, but also people
> clapping at the end of the first mvt of the Beethoven (and, NO, it is not a
> one movement work), and even a falling coin, then rolling across the hall
> exactly at the beginning of the third mvt. I could read the horror in the
> eyes of the first violin... Oh yes, and also the noise of paper of sweeties
> was a constant background.
>
> During the break, the girl I was amiably chatting with and I agreed that
> some people try to cough louder during the loudest moments of the music,
> just to make sure that they can be heard. Moreover recording equipment
> simply encourages these people. The simply want to buy the CD later and
> tell the friends "and, now, you can hear ME". Reminds me of people
> cramming behind a TV announcer to say hi mom hi dad. Depressing.
This reminds me all too well why I usually opt to stay home and hear
music in "my own private concert hall" where there's an audience of one
and no coughing. Tell me, did anyone come in 20 minutes late and
squeeze by you, talking all the time? I even hate to go to movies
anymore..... :-(
John
--
A fool and his money are lucky to get together in the first place.
--Gordon Gekko
Alain
Steven Chung wrote:
> The most awful sort of noise has to be that from a hearing aid. I remember
> going to a concert of Beethoven and Kurtag chamber works in Berlin: a
> number of the Kurtag pieces were for solo violin, playing near the top of
> its range. This, of course, caused someone's hearing aid to emit a series
> of loud, high-pitched squawks that nearly wrecked the whole performance.
> And the worst part of it was that the offender didn't even seem to
> recognize what was happening!
You should have screamed at him: "are you DEAF"?
alain
Eric Schissel
So how are his operas? (After all, he did write some.) :)
-Eric Schissel (who hopes someone will reissue the old LP of the 7th
symphony- it's a wonderful performance and I .sorely. doubt Almeida comes
close on his CD. That LP may be the best orchestral Malipiero piece and
performance on records, so far anyhow...)
--
Mario Taboada
Music and Arts put out an old recording of Malipiero's "L'Armida". It's
a masterpiece. Malipiero is definitely one of the greats - it's too bad
that he is so poorly represented on records. At least, we now have *two*
sets of his wonderful string quartets. I treasure my recording on ASV
and listen to it frequently.
Regards,
Mario Taboada
Keith Edgerley
Lionel Tacchini wrote:
>
>[snip] the language barrier
> >
> > : That's the biggest problem. I didn't start liking Wagner or any kind of
> > : Lieder before I could understand the words without looking at the
> translation.
> >
Hence the supertitles now shown above the stage in opera houses. And it
used to be a common practice even in the 18th century to sell the book
of words in opera houses.
The problem is also, of course, that opera is a visual art. I like
opera, but it just does not come over at all on record - unless, of
course, when you listen to a recording of something you have already
seen staged, you might see it in your mind's eye.
Music is a performance art. Only in the last couple of generations has
it been possible to think of listening to music seriously without seeing
the musicians. And without sharing the listening experience with a
number of other people.
So, if you usually listen to music on CDs, you'll never have a real
opera experience. You will be listening to opera music, not opera, just
as ballet music on CD is not ballet. Not to mention the whole atmosphere
of a theatre and the knowledge that there is not going to be a major
interruption until the end of each act. The impact is lost.
> Do you remember those
> 3rd rate films they used to make back in the 40s-50s (there are plenty of
> German ones of that sort, but I'm not sure how bad it was in other countries)
> where the action would stop every 15 mn or so and one or several of the
> main characters would start singing ?
This was an interesting sociological phenomenon in Germany in the period
from 1947 to 1958, more or less, and is usually explained as a form of
collective post-war escapism of the German nation. Or so it was
explained to me at school. The phenomenon faded away with the
Wirtschaftswunder (the economic miracle), the establishment of the
Bundesswehr, membership of NATO, etc.
--
Keith Edgerley
Jose Oscar Marques
On 11 May 98 21:15:00 GMT schi...@adore.lightlink.com (Eric Schissel)
wrote in article <35576...@news2.lightlink.com>:
>-Eric Schissel (who hopes someone will reissue the old LP of the 7th
>symphony- it's a wonderful performance and I .sorely. doubt Almeida comes
>close on his CD.
He doesn't.
> That LP may be the best orchestral Malipiero piece and
>performance on records, so far anyhow...)
The Mitropoulos recording was indeed excellent, and I can't forgive
myself for having sold it after I bought the Marco Polo CD. (I kept a
cassette recording, fortunately.)
Daniel Snoek
po...@hotmail.com wrote:
> That (and the popularity of the Republican party) is proof positive, IMO,
> of the utter stupidity of the human race, because there is scarcely a more
> beautiful sound imaginable.
Give it up on this idiotic political ranting. I'm here to read
rec.music.classical, and could frankly care less for your political views whether
they be of Lydon Larouche, Louis Farrakan, or Bill Clinton. And while I agree
that too many in the human race are ignorant and stupid, such a blanket statement
on the party voted in by the voters to congress only reflects on yourself.
- Daniel
dsn...@ucsd.edu
Simon Roberts
Keith Edgerley (edge...@ebu.ch) wrote:
: Music is a performance art. Only in the last couple of generations has
: it been possible to think of listening to music seriously without seeing
: the musicians. And without sharing the listening experience with a
: number of other people.
That's a common and plausible view, but not the only one that makes sense,
I think; it's a performance art by historical contingency, not inherently.
I like the somewhat disembodied (alienated, even, if you will) experience
of listening to music at home, preferably via headphones, in part because
I get to experience it as one-on-one communication with the performers
and/or composer, which I think enormously enhances all but the most
public of music (e.g., finale of Beethoven 9). (Quite apart from such
horrors of attending live music as candy unwrapping, beepers, snoring,
chattering, fidgeting, etc., etc.)
: So, if you usually listen to music on CDs, you'll never have a real
: opera experience. You will be listening to opera music, not opera, just
: as ballet music on CD is not ballet. Not to mention the whole atmosphere
: of a theatre and the knowledge that there is not going to be a major
: interruption until the end of each act. The impact is lost.
True enough. But if the ballet music is any good, that can be satisfying;
unfortunately most of it isn't good enough to be self-supporting (the
same is true, but less so, of opera).
Simon
Bill Bailer
Because 99% of the singers sing with uncontrolled vibrato and poor
dynamic expression. On high notes they scream. Why this is tolerated by
opera lovers is beyond my comprehension. There are some good singers in
this world, but most of them do not have the innate vocal power or
discipline that it takes to be an opera singer. And how can ANY music
lover sing the same lines of recitative, night after night? It is a
boring job! Only the 5 or 6 best opera singers who ever lived are even
musical by the standards we apply to instrumentalists.
I am an opera lover. I have listened to many hundreds of hours worth of
opera, and have often said to myself, wow, that is great music, I wonder
if there is a good recording of it? I have spent 20 years looking for
recordings of good opera singers, and a present I have only one that I
still listen to. It is and old LP that I found in a used record store.
It is an OLD LP, a London issued in 1950, of the first LP recording of
the young Renatata Tebaldi. The title is "An Operatic Recital," with
Renata Tebaldi's name in relatively small print, recorded in a concert
hall with an ordinary symphony orchestra. There are two arias on it
which are sung with control, which I like, even the others evolveing
into a bit of screaming. I think she probably reached her prime
previous to this recording, and everything else that follows it is
inferior in quality. If anyone knows of a recording of Renata previous
to 1950, please let me know.
Just an opinion of an opera lover who hates opera performances.
Bill Bailer
wba...@cris.com, Rochester NY USA, tel:716-473-9556
Acoustics, piano technology, music theory, JSBach
Abelard2
Daniel Snoek <dsn...@ucsd.edu> wrote on
Date: 5/12/98 1:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <3558B5C1...@ucsd.edu>
<<... I'm here to read rec.music.classical, and could frankly care less for
your political views whether they be of Lydon Larouche, Louis Farrakan, or Bill
Clinton. And while I agree that too many in the human race are ignorant and
stupid, such a blanket statement on the party voted in by the voters to
congress only reflects on yourself.>>
I don't wish to nit-pick, but Lyndon LaRouche's ideas on classical music are
brilliant - - just ask his friend and admirer, Norbert Brainin, former leader
of the Amadeus Quartet. And Louis Farrakhan plays a surprisingly satisfying
rendition of the Mendelssohn Violin Concerto. Recordings are available. As for
Bill Clinton, he may be the exception that proves Daniel's rule.
Abelard2
http://members.aol.com/abelard2/davidsbuendler.htm
-
Daniel Snoek
dulc...@juno.com wrote:
> In article <199805131522...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> abel...@aol.com (Abelard2) wrote:
> >
> >
>
> >
> > I don't wish to nit-pick, but Lyndon LaRouche's ideas on classical music are
> > brilliant - - just ask his friend and admirer, Norbert Brainin, former
> > leader of the Amadeus Quartet. And Louis Farrakhan plays a surprisingly
> > satisfying rendition of the Mendelssohn Violin Concerto. Recordings are
> > available. As for Bill Clinton, he may be the exception that proves Daniel's
> > rule.
> >
> > Abelard2
> >
> > http://members.aol.com/abelard2/davidsbuendler.htm
> >
>
> Give Bill some credit -- today at the State Dinner in Berlin, the orchestra
> played the first movement of the Eroica, and he said it was one of his
> favorite pieces.
For some reason I think Bill would say that *any* piece played at such a banquet
is one of his favorite pieces, especially if he's hosted in a foreign country.
- Daniel
dulc...@juno.com
>
> I don't wish to nit-pick, but Lyndon LaRouche's ideas on classical music are
> brilliant - - just ask his friend and admirer, Norbert Brainin, former
> leader of the Amadeus Quartet. And Louis Farrakhan plays a surprisingly
> satisfying rendition of the Mendelssohn Violin Concerto. Recordings are
> available. As for Bill Clinton, he may be the exception that proves Daniel's
> rule.
>
> Abelard2
>
> http://members.aol.com/abelard2/davidsbuendler.htm
>
Give Bill some credit -- today at the State Dinner in Berlin, the orchestra
played the first movement of the Eroica, and he said it was one of his
favorite pieces.
piper
On 8 May 1998 18:14:16 -0400, mkag...@lynx01.dac.neu.edu (Michael
Kagalenko) wrote:
I'll agree with that. :-)
Michael
Norman Dryden
Sorry. I missed the start of this.
What exactly is a 'serious music lover'.
Norman
Lawrence Faltz
Minimum requirement: Someone who can sit through the Leonore Overture #3
without fidgeting.
LLF
Simon Roberts
Norman Dryden
In article <35608B...@pol.net>, Lawrence Faltz <lfa...@pol.net> writes:
|> Norman Dryden wrote:
|> >
|> > Sorry. I missed the start of this.
|> >
|> > What exactly is a 'serious music lover'.
|> >
|> > Norman
|>
|> Minimum requirement: Someone who can sit through the Leonore Overture #3
|> without fidgeting.
|>
O.K., thanks for clarification - I've just tried that and it works - I'm now
definitely in a serious condition.
Norman
dunca...@yahoo.com
> some years ago, this question was asked on the opera quiz, and it
> continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
> several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
> literature. why?
>
> whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
> i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
> so it's not their music that's hated, but the whole concept of opera.
> why?
>
> as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
>
> bob seigler
Opera is the best, I love it, still like the other stuff 41 etc.
dunca...@yahoo.com
John W Kennedy
so-called “Faust”. Fortunately, then I discovered Boito. But I still
think Gounod is the musical equivalent of pink collector plates with
kittens painted on them.
Unfortunately, most of the best operas seem to come from decades when
theatre sucked. I mean, can you actually believe that the
legitimate-theatre versions of “Il Trovatore” and “La Forza del Destino”
were hits?
In another area, naturally, the dramatic aspect of opera tends to fight
with purely musical values. As an exercise in composition, the best part
of “Der Ring” is the first 136 bars, before a word is sung. Once there’s
a plot, the wondrous elegance of a single note throwing out melodic
shoots cannot be maintained. How many operas have fugues in them (not
counting overtures, entr’actes, interludes, etc.)? Has anyone ever
written a scene in sonata form?
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
tlst...@tpg.com.au
Peter T. Daniels
> On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 4:11:50 AM UTC+11, John W Kennedy wrote:
> > On 2/13/17 8:11 PM, dunca...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 5, 1998 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, robert seigler wrote:
> > >> some years ago, this question was asked on the opera quiz, and it
> > >> continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
> > >> several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
> > >> literature. why?
> > >>
> > >> whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
> > >> i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
> > >> so it's not their music that's hated, but the whole concept of opera.
> > >> why?
> > >>
> > >> as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
> > >>
> > >> bob seigler
> > >
> > > Opera is the best, I love it, still like the other stuff 41 etc.
> >
> > I was put off opera for ten years after reading a synopsis of Gounod’s
> > so-called “Faust”. Fortunately, then I discovered Boito. But I still
> > think Gounod is the musical equivalent of pink collector plates with
> > kittens painted on them.
> >
> > Unfortunately, most of the best operas seem to come from decades when
> > theatre sucked. I mean, can you actually believe that the
> > legitimate-theatre versions of “Il Trovatore” and “La Forza del Destino”
> > were hits?
> > In another area, naturally, the dramatic aspect of opera tends to fight
> > with purely musical values. As an exercise in composition, the best part
> > of “Der Ring” is the first 136 bars, before a word is sung. Once there’s
> > a plot, the wondrous elegance of a single note throwing out melodic
> > shoots cannot be maintained. How many operas have fugues in them (not
> > counting overtures, entr’actes, interludes, etc.)? Has anyone ever
> > written a scene in sonata form?
>
John W Kennedy
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 4:28:03 AM UTC-4, tlst...@tpg.com.au wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 4:11:50 AM UTC+11, John W Kennedy wrote:
>>> On 2/13/17 8:11 PM, dunca...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 5, 1998 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, robert seigler wrote:
>>>>> some years ago, this question was asked on the opera quiz, and it
>>>>> continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
>>>>> several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
>>>>> literature. why?
>>>>>
>>>>> whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
>>>>> i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
>>>>>
>>>>> as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
>>>>>
>>>>> bob seigler
>>>>
>>>> Opera is the best, I love it, still like the other stuff 41 etc.
>>>
>>> I was put off opera for ten years after reading a synopsis of Gounod’s
>>> kittens painted on them.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, most of the best operas seem to come from decades when
>>> theatre sucked. I mean, can you actually believe that the
>>> legitimate-theatre versions of “Il Trovatore” and “La Forza del Destino”
>>> were hits?
>
> Several -- a lot? -- of Verdi's sources were plays by Schiller.
>>> In another area, naturally, the dramatic aspect of opera tends to fight
>>> with purely musical values. As an exercise in composition, the best part
>>> of “Der Ring” is the first 136 bars, before a word is sung. Once there’s
>>> a plot, the wondrous elegance of a single note throwing out melodic
>>> shoots cannot be maintained. How many operas have fugues in them (not
>>> counting overtures, entr’actes, interludes, etc.)? Has anyone ever
>>> written a scene in sonata form?
>>
>> Yes. Plus several other classical forms: Alban Berg "Wozzeck".
>
Peter T. Daniels
> On 5/17/17 9:10 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 4:11:50 AM UTC+11, John W Kennedy wrote:
> >>> I was put off opera for ten years after reading a synopsis of Gounod’s
> >>> so-called “Faust”. Fortunately, then I discovered Boito.. But I still
> >>> think Gounod is the musical equivalent of pink collector plates with
> >>> kittens painted on them.
> >>> Unfortunately, most of the best operas seem to come from decades when
> >>> theatre sucked. I mean, can you actually believe that the
> >>> legitimate-theatre versions of “Il Trovatore” and “La Forza del Destino”
> >>> were hits?
> > Several -- a lot? -- of Verdi's sources were plays by Schiller.
>
> And by Shakespeare. But both of them were dead before Verdi was born.
So you're saying either that Shakespeare and Schiller sucked, or that Verdi
should have adapted sucky plays by his contemporaries? Such as Ibsen?
Paul Dormer
>
> (Shakespeare didn't write a Falstaff play. That was your pal Boito,
> wasn't it?)
the same, as I recall, although the honour aria is based on a speech from
Henry IV Part 1.
Peter T. Daniels
write more. It's one of Shak.'s three or four worst plays.
But that has nothing to do with either John Kennedy's or my point.
Paul Dormer
>
> Supposedly MWW was because QE1 liked the Falstaff of 4H1 so much
> that she told him to write more. It's one of Shak.'s three or four
> worst plays.
John W Kennedy
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 2:17:14 PM UTC-4, John W Kennedy wrote:
>> On 5/17/17 9:10 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 4:11:50 AM UTC+11, John W Kennedy wrote:
>
>>>>> I was put off opera for ten years after reading a synopsis of Gounod’s
>>>>> so-called “Faust”. Fortunately, then I discovered Boito.. But I still
>>>>> think Gounod is the musical equivalent of pink collector plates with
>>>>> kittens painted on them.
>>>>> Unfortunately, most of the best operas seem to come from decades when
>>>>> theatre sucked. I mean, can you actually believe that the
>>>>> legitimate-theatre versions of “Il Trovatore” and “La Forza del Destino”
>>>>> were hits?
>>> Several -- a lot? -- of Verdi's sources were plays by Schiller.
>>
>> And by Shakespeare. But both of them were dead before Verdi was born.
>
> (Shakespeare didn't write a Falstaff play. That was your pal Boito, wasn't it?)
in “Henry V”; and he is the main character in “The Merry Wives of
Windsor”, which is the direct source of Boito/Verdi’s “Falstaff”.
> So you're saying either that Shakespeare and Schiller sucked, or that Verdi
> should have adapted sucky plays by his contemporaries? Such as Ibsen?
vast wasteland. And, though I don’t know when “A Doll’s House” received
its Italian première, Verdi was in his eighties before it was seen in
France.
John W Kennedy
prose—and it’s little more than a door-banging farce, but “worst”
suggests “bad”, and I can’t call it that in good conscience.
Peter T. Daniels
> On 5/18/17 11:32 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:
> > In article <182e57e6-2d33-4756...@googlegroups.com>,
> > gram...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels) wrote:
> >> Supposedly MWW was because QE1 liked the Falstaff of 4H1 so much
> >> that she told him to write more. It's one of Shak.'s three or four
> >> worst plays.
> > I rather enjoyed the RSC staging I saw about thirty years ago.
>
> It shows signs of being hurried—one of them being that it’s entirely in
> prose—and it’s little more than a door-banging farce, but “worst”
> suggests “bad”, and I can’t call it that in good conscience.
Park, and in each case the production had little to do with the original text. (Cf.
*The Boys from Syracuse*, Rodgers & Hart, which retained exactly one original line --
in comparison with Britten's MSND, which has exactly one line not in the original!)
Paul Dormer
>
> I've seen the other three worst ones -- LLL, 2Gents, CoE -- at
> Shakespeare in the Park,
former and one of the other, never seen 2Gents.
Judging by number of performances around here, I'd say Henry VIII, King
John, and Pericles are fairly low down the list, although I have seen
Pericles once. I've also seen Two Noble Kinsmen, not all Shakespeare but
rather fun. Timon of Athens doesn't get a good press, but there was a
good production at the National Theatre a year or two back with Simon
Russell Beale that was very good. (And I'm seeing him in The Tempest as
my birthday treat to myself this year. And yes, I've seen Tom Ades
operatic version, too.)
Peter T. Daniels
> In article <9279fffc-1a70-4a72...@googlegroups.com>,
> gram...@verizon.net (Peter T. Daniels) wrote:
> > I've seen the other three worst ones -- LLL, 2Gents, CoE -- at
> > Shakespeare in the Park,
>
> Well, I think CoE and LLL are rather good. Seen two productions of the
> former and one of the other, never seen 2Gents.
main point of my contribution.
Larkenfield
Larkenfield
Peter T. Daniels
> I disagree about audience applause during opera performances. If the singer is outstanding, I'm all for spontaneous applause. After all, opera is a living event!
It's a pointless comment. At least through Puccini, applause was built into the score,
and for someone to object to it would be, at best, silly.
Wagner, OTOH, didn't put flashy cadences at the end of intentional showpieces,
so interrupting the flow generally doesn't happen.
Though one time at Ariadne auf Naxos, probably in the late 70s, the "Diva" -- it may
have been Jessye Norman -- made a momentary appearance in the Prologue and the star-
clappers got to do their thing, so when she had her proper scene in the Opera part, they'd
gotten it out of their system and the music wasn't drowned out when she appeared.
Mr. R. Strauss knew what he was doing.
michael thomas
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mario+del+monaco+live
AND when men sound like this ! unlike today
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=franco+corelli
And Tebaldi
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=renata+tebaldi
there was often only one word to describe the sounds these voices made for years,the word is THRILLING
or men like this
brunoca...@gmail.com
> continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
> several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
> literature. why?
>
> whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
> i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
> so it's not their music that's hated, but the whole concept of opera.
>
> as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
>
> bob seigler
gggg...@gmail.com
> some years ago, this question was asked on the opera quiz, and it
> continues to bother me. on the 'detested composer' thread, for example,
> several people dismissed as intolerable the true giants of the operatic
> literature. why?
>
> whoever mentioned rossini must have forgot his wonderful overtures, and
> i'm sure verdi's requiem is enjoyed by those who can't abide rigoletto.
> so it's not their music that's hated, but the whole concept of opera.
> why?
>
> as an opera lover, i'm stumped. what do you opera haters have to say?
>
> bob seigler
W.H. Auden