When did Beethoven go Deaf?
Simon Monsour
of hearing - what age did it start, how far gone was it when he finished
the 5th, when did he lose it completely - and so on.
Any info would be great.
Thanks,
Simon.
Adrian
On Sun, 10 Oct 1999 07:47:27 +1000, Simon Monsour <en...@uq.net.au>
wrote:
MWindi4108
Mark Windisch
Always keen to learn.
Joyce Maier
Simon Monsour wrote<37FFB7EE...@uq.net.au>...
>I'm wondering if there is a basic consensus regarding Beethoven's loss
>of hearing - what age did it start, how far gone was it when he finished
>the 5th, when did he lose it completely - and so on.
We don't know exactly at what age it started, but 26/27 is almost certain.
When he composed the 5th he was not yet deaf, but bad of hearing indeed.
From about 1817 he was almost completely deaf and had to use conversation
books.
Regards,
Joyce Maier
Wayne Mendryk
Simon Monsour wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if there is a basic consensus regarding Beethoven's loss
> of hearing - what age did it start, how far gone was it when he finished
> the 5th, when did he lose it completely - and so on.
>
> Any info would be great.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Simon.
Beginning in 1798, (at age 28) Beethoven experienced a continual humming
and whistling in his ears that gradually
grew stronger, eventually prompting the agonizing realization that he
was going
deaf.(source:http://www.ida.his.se/ida/~a94johal/beethoven/beet.html)
And, the fact that he was going deaf led him to contemplate suicide.
Beethoven retired to the secluded village of
Heiligenstadt and addressed to his brothers a statement expressing his
anguish. The Heiligenstadt
Testament, as it is known, marks the start of a new period in
Beethoven's output; the next ten years
saw one of the most prodigious outpourings of masterpieces in the
history of music. By 1812 he had
completed Symphony 2, 3 Eroica, 4, 5, 6 Pastoral, 7 and 8, Piano
Concerto No. 4 and No. 5 Emperor, the Violin Concerto, his opera
Fidelio, the three Rasumovsky String Quartets and a wealth of piano
sonatas and other works.
(Source http://www.ida.his.se/ida/~a94johal/beethoven/beet.html)
Beethoven began going deaf at age 30.By 1815 (at age 45) he was deaf.
According to the liner notes of the recording of Beethoven's 5th
symphony that I have, "work had begun on the Fifth symphony -at latest
by April 1804-even before sketches for the Fourth, though the latter was
completed first.Thus, the Fifth was not finished until 1807 or perhaps
even until the beginning of 1808." Hence, Beethoven still had hearing
left when he completed the Fifth Symphony.
Some websites devoted to the topic:
http://elvis.engr.wisc.edu/690/gilchrist/bdeaf.htm
http://artforkids.miningco.com/kidsteens/ktarts/artforkids/library/weekly/aa091797.htm
Franneke
Simon:
> I'm wondering if there is a basic consensus regarding Beethoven's loss
> of hearing - what age did it start, how far gone was it when he finished
> the 5th, when did he lose it completely - and so on.
The last thing that he ever heard were the cannons in Wellington's Sieg. He
stood too close while conducting.
Frank
Joyce Maier
>Simon Monsour wrote:
>>
>> I'm wondering if there is a basic consensus regarding Beethoven's loss
>> of hearing - what age did it start, how far gone was it when he finished
>> the 5th, when did he lose it completely - and so on.
>Beginning in 1798, (at age 28)
No, this is not correct. Often it's overlooked that most probably Beethoven
was born on December 16, 1770 (the year is for sure, the date not, but he
was baptized on December 17), so in 1798 he was 27, except the last 2 weeks
of the year. And there's another problem. Obviously Beethoven himself was
not sure about the onset of the deafness. In his famous letter of 1801 to
Wegeler he mentioned 3 years of loss of hearing, but in the Heiligenstadt
Testament, written in October 1802, he mentioned 6 years.
>By 1815 (at age 45) he was deaf.
No, this is not correct. See, for instance, the testimony of Fanny
Giannatasio del Rio, mostly a very reliable witness, who wrote in her diary
about her conversations in late 1816 with Beethoven. Though his hearing was
bad, he was not yet deaf. Even in 1826 he was able to hear a bit, though
very, very little indeed. See the testimony of Gerhard von Breuning, also a
reliable witness.
Regards,
Joyce Maier
Diana Higginbotham
I have thought of a possible tragic cause for him to have become deaf. His
father would frequently hit him as a child, presumably to make him play
piano better, and that could have caused his deafness in later life.
Simon Monsour <en...@uq.net.au> wrote in message
news:37FFB7EE...@uq.net.au...
> I'm wondering if there is a basic consensus regarding Beethoven's loss
> of hearing - what age did it start, how far gone was it when he finished
> the 5th, when did he lose it completely - and so on.
>
vertigo
This was supposedy true of Tom Edison, who was yanked aboard a moving railway
by a conductor & heard something go snap inside his ear. But I doubt if that
was the cause of Louie's deafness! Otherwise, many people with cauliflower
ears would also be deaf!
--
********************************
"What do? Where to? What for?"
Jack Kerouac
ON THE ROAD
********************************
Joyce Maier
>> Have you thought of WHY Beethoven went deaf??
>>
>> I have thought of a possible tragic cause for him to have become deaf.
His
>> father would frequently hit him as a child, presumably to make him play
>> piano better, and that could have caused his deafness in later life.
No, this is very unlikely. There's no proof that Johann hit his little son
so frequently and if he had done so, the deafness surely would have appeared
earlier in Ludwig's life. From a medical point of view otosclerosis is a
possible diagnosis. The onset of this disease mostly happens in someone's
twenties or thirties and it's a very slow process. Often sufferers never
lose their hearing completely. Buzzing, ringing and humming (tinnitus)
mostly is the first symptom. This all fits very well to Beethoven's
symptoms. On the other hand, most sufferers are women and very often it's
genetically defined and we know nothing about deafness running in the
Beethoven or Keverich families. There's still some discussion about the
possibility that Beethoven's possible otosclerosis was only a symptom, the
result of another, chronic disease. Syphilis comes to mind, but other
diseases also sometimes will cause otosclerosis and the autopsy didn't show
a syphilitic liver.
Regards,
Joyce Maier
Joyce Maier
I can imagine that medical experts now shout: But otosclerosis can easily be
falsified or verified by a research of the bones of the inner ear! Very
true. Unfortunately the bones of Beethoven's inner ears are lost. The day
after his death they were cut out for more research. Alas, for some reason
this research never happened and at an unknown moment the bones got lost. So
the cause of Beethoven's deafness is still uncertain and there's little
chance that this will change.
Regards,
Joyce Maier
Antti Oikarinen
: Have you thought of WHY Beethoven went deaf??
: I have thought of a possible tragic cause for him to have become deaf. His
: father would frequently hit him as a child, presumably to make him play
: piano better, and that could have caused his deafness in later life.
Has anyone considered the possibility that Beethoven would have wanted
people to think he was deaf? Isn't it possible that he just played deaf
because he didn't want people to trouble him? -- Try yourself: play almost
deaf for a year and you will notice people giving you much more space and
time. I've heard many old-timers to do this kind of things: it's also
a way to get more attention when they want it.
I just came to think of this, partly because it's hard to imagine a deaf
person composing such a great pieces of music, and partly because of
the story about Beethoven thanking Liszt after "listening" to him.
What do you think? Is it possible?
Antti
vertigo
> Diana Higginbotham (dia...@northrock.bm) wrote:
> Isn't it possible that he just played deaf
> because he didn't want people to trouble him?
It's possible. It's also possible that Milton faked his blindness in order to
tease his family. Come to think of it, Van Gogh possibly faked his madness in
order to drive Gaughin mad. It must have worked, since G. did go partly mad near
the end of his life. Bach, of course, quite possibly faked his own blindness in
order to avoid attending church for the few remaining Sunday's of his life.
> I just came to think of this, partly because it's hard to imagine a deaf
> person composing such a great pieces of music, and partly because of
> the story about Beethoven thanking Liszt after "listening" to him.
One thing you SHOULD know about music: you don't compose with the external ear
but with the internal ear, or the THIRD EAR, as it is sometimes called. Pablo
Casals was almost insulted when someone asked him if he composed music on his
cello! And Casals was hardly the advanced composer that Beethoven or Smetana
was.
Joyce Maier
Antti Oikarinen wrote<7tse4g$3h2$1...@pan.oamk.fi>...
>Has anyone considered the possibility that Beethoven would have wanted
>people to think he was deaf? Isn't it possible that he just played deaf
>because he didn't want people to trouble him? -- Try yourself: play almost
>deaf for a year and you will notice people giving you much more space and
>time. I've heard many old-timers to do this kind of things: it's also
>a way to get more attention when they want it.
Please, read the Heiligenstadt Testament, that heart-breaking ego-document,
and you will drop these silly thoughts immediately! Also instructive are his
letters and the various reports of his doctors. And after you've studied all
this, then try to read the autopsy report. There you will find something
interesting information about the condition of Beethoven's auditory nerves.
This proves beyond any doubt that his hearing must have been very bad
indeed. With such nerves nobody can hear normally.
Regards,
Joyce Maier
Stef Walker
Antti Oikarinen wrote in message <7tse4g$3h2$1...@pan.oamk.fi>...
>Diana Higginbotham (dia...@northrock.bm) wrote:
>: Have you thought of WHY Beethoven went deaf??
>
>: I have thought of a possible tragic cause for him to have become deaf.
His
>: father would frequently hit him as a child, presumably to make him play
>: piano better, and that could have caused his deafness in later life.
>
>people to think he was deaf? Isn't it possible that he just played deaf
>because he didn't want people to trouble him? -- Try yourself: play almost
>deaf for a year and you will notice people giving you much more space and
>time. I've heard many old-timers to do this kind of things: it's also
>a way to get more attention when they want it.
>
>person composing such a great pieces of music, and partly because of
>the story about Beethoven thanking Liszt after "listening" to him.
>
>
>
>
Without wanting to sound too rude, but What a load of tosh...!!!
If he was 'pretending' to be deaf, why scour quacks and medical institutions
for cures. Why try out various hearing devices (which can be seen in
museums)?
I'm sorry, but to 'pretend' to be hearing impaired for 20+ Years is some
feat, and not one that is easily maintained.
Imagine a conversation in which Beethoven heard something and he found it
impossible not to reply. Could he bite his tongue for so many years?
No....this seems a silly muse to
me..
Stef
"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock."
remove nospammy123- to email
DOYLE60
are hard of hearing. For me, a person is deaf when they are completely deaf
only.
Doyle
Jim Fish
By most accounts Beethoven was completely deaf for the last ten years
of his life. Prior to that he tried all sorts of things to hear his
works in progress. The most inteesting to me was cutting his piano's
legs down so that he could put his ear to the floor while playng. This
has bothered me somewhat since that would be awkward; however, the
floor would provide a heck of a sounding board.
He most certainly composed the Ninth Symphony when he was completely
deaf. This is an amazing feat (paticularly the orchestration) He had a
superb "inner ear" and could "hear" the various voicings in his head.
Still, the music of the time was not very harmonically complex and I
believe that other composers could have done this also. In fact, Mozart
most certainly wrote music without playing it, until he had finished
the score, and then without revisions.
What is most incredible about Beethoven is that he did not quit. His
muse was ever present and like most people he did what he did because
he had to...it was his nature.
Respectfully,
Jim
--
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
vertigo
> The trouble with this is people's tendency to say a person is deaf when they
> are hard of hearing. For me, a person is deaf when they are completely deaf
> only.
>
> Doyle
Ah, but you left out whether you're talking about one or both ears!
SherMus
From: Jim Fish <jim_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
<<Still, the music of the time was not very harmonically complex and I
believe that other composers could have done this also. In fact, Mozart
most certainly wrote music without playing it, until he had finished
the score, and then without revisions.>>
No???!!!
Listen, you go back and do a complete harmonic analysis of Op. 130, 132, 135
and the Grosse Fugue (Op. 133) and then tell me that the music is not "very
harmonically complex".
Then go to the best concert music composer you know, aks him/her to plug up
their ears for a few years and then write a string quartet, and see what you
get beside I's, IV's, and V's.
Will Flor
>Have you thought of WHY Beethoven went deaf??
>
>I have thought of a possible tragic cause for him to have become deaf. His
>father would frequently hit him as a child, presumably to make him play
>piano better, and that could have caused his deafness in later life.
That's the explanation alluded to in the film "Immortal Beloved", a film that is
unfortunately not very good (IMHO) as a film, though about interesting subject
matter. I think its factuality is on the same level as "Amadeus". ;-)
-Will Flor wi...@will-flor.spamblock.com
Appropriately adjust my return address to reach me via e-mail.
Greg Fernandez
Joyce Maier <j...@dds.nl> wrote in message
news:939629887.24174....@news.demon.nl...
> I wrote, responding to Diana Higginbotham:
> >
> >>>
> >>> I have thought of a possible tragic cause for him to have become
deaf.
> >His
> >>> father would frequently hit him as a child, presumably to make him
play
> >>> piano better, and that could have caused his deafness in later life.
> >
son
> >so frequently and if he had done so, the deafness surely would have
> appeared earlier in Ludwig's life.
Indeed. Perhaps Joyce is confusing him with Brian Wilson?
> Unfortunately the bones of Beethoven's inner ears are lost. The day
> after his death they were cut out for more research. Alas, for some reason
> this research never happened and at an unknown moment the bones got lost.
Careless custodians indeed. I should consider myself lucky.
"Pops" Haydn
Jim Fish
she...@aol.comnospam (SherMus) wrote:
> Subject: Re: When did Beethoven go Deaf?
> From: Jim Fish <jim_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> <<Still, the music of the time was not very harmonically complex and I
> believe that other composers could have done this also. In fact,
Mozart
> most certainly wrote music without playing it, until he had finished
> the score, and then without revisions.>>
>
> No???!!!
>
> Listen, you go back and do a complete harmonic analysis of Op. 130,
132, 135
> and the Grosse Fugue (Op. 133) and then tell me that the music is
not "very
> harmonically complex".
Please don't misundestand me. I'm not saying that for it's time it
wasn't complex. What I am saying is that music from the common practice
period is relatively simple when compared to the harmonic complexities
of the late Romantic period on to much of today's music.
I would contend that Beethoven would have difficulty conceiving the
aural complexities of Stravinky's primitive period, dodecaphonic music
(Schoenberg et. al.) cell groupings a la Bartôk, the pan tonality of
Hindemith, Messian's various redux's of birdsongs and ancient modal
works with rhythmic variations, etc.
Bitonality, polytonality, you try to hear those in your head all at the
same time. Perhaps Charles Ives could because his father had him
practice two different songs each in a different key, one in one hand
and one in the other. Most other composers worked them out at the
piano.
Are you suggesting that since Mozart and Beethoven we've had no
composers capable of writing common practice music away from the piano?
Hardly.
> Then go to the best concert music composer you know, aks him/her to
plug up
> their ears for a few years and then write a string quartet, and see
what you
> get beside I's, IV's, and V's.
>
Composers do not usually start at the piano (or any other instrument)
they use it to confirm what is written.
I have seen the experiment, you ask for, done at many levels (pre
degree, post degree, non degreed but very talented) what most often
comes out isn't even close to the rock 'n' roll harmonic progressions
you imply.
Even the second semester theory student is wise enough, and has done
enough analyses, to come up with voicings to vary a melody away from
such insipid progressions as I-IV-V.
Jim Fish
--
The Tao that can be expressed is not
The eternal Tao
Greg Fernandez
Antti Oikarinen <ant...@tlti.tokem.fi> wrote in message
news:7tse4g$3h2$1...@pan.oamk.fi...
> Diana Higginbotham (dia...@northrock.bm) wrote:
> : Have you thought of WHY Beethoven went deaf??
>
> : I have thought of a possible tragic cause for him to have become deaf.
His
> : father would frequently hit him as a child, presumably to make him play
> : piano better, and that could have caused his deafness in later life.
>
> people to think he was deaf? Isn't it possible that he just played deaf
> because he didn't want people to trouble him? -- Try yourself: play almost
> deaf for a year and you will notice people giving you much more space and
> time. I've heard many old-timers to do this kind of things: it's also
> a way to get more attention when they want it.
That's what some people say about Brian Wilson's madness. Are you sure
you're not Mike Love?
Assuming you're not,
> I just came to think of this, partly because it's hard to imagine a deaf
> person composing such a great pieces of music
Keep in mind that many composers can hear music in their imaginations as
they write it. Had Beethoven not experienced music through his ears for
years it would be incredible for him to compose.
> and partly because of
> the story about Beethoven thanking Liszt after "listening" to him.
?????
Il Distratto
Richard Schultz
: Please don't misundestand me. I'm not saying that for it's time it
: wasn't complex. What I am saying is that music from the common practice
: period is relatively simple when compared to the harmonic complexities
: of the late Romantic period on to much of today's music.
Your hypothesis is going to have a hard time explaining Gabriel Faure.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad."
Ed Foote
>: wasn't complex. What I am saying is that music from the common practice
>: period is relatively simple when compared to the harmonic complexities
>: of the late Romantic period on to much of today's music.
Greetings,
It is not valid to compare "harmonic complexity" if you are using equally
tempered tunings to make the comparison.
Prior to 1850,(or later), composers were utilizing a very complex
intonation(temperament) to make their stuff work. Today's tuning on pianos
pretty well eliminates the tonal structure that was in use when Beethoven was
alive, and as such, doesn't really allow a listener to hear the full expression
that is in the music itself.
Regards,
Ed Foote
Precision Piano Works
Nashville, Tenn. USA
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
Jim Fish
correct address in .sigfile wrote:
> Jim Fish (jim_...@my-deja.com) wrote:
>
> : Please don't misundestand me. I'm not saying that for it's time it
practice
> : period is relatively simple when compared to the harmonic
complexities
> : of the late Romantic period on to much of today's music.
>
>
> -----
> Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
> Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
> -----
> "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad."
>
Actually I believe that the composition of music only needs ears to
hear it. The idea and construction of a work starts in the mind.
Respectfully,
Jim
--
Jim Fish
a4...@aol.com.omit (Ed Foote) wrote:
> Jim writes:
> >: wasn't complex. What I am saying is that music from the common
practice
> >: period is relatively simple when compared to the harmonic
complexities
> >: of the late Romantic period on to much of today's music.
>
> It is not valid to compare "harmonic complexity" if you are using
equally
> tempered tunings to make the comparison.
> Prior to 1850,(or later), composers were utilizing a very complex
> intonation(temperament) to make their stuff work. Today's tuning on
pianos
> pretty well eliminates the tonal structure that was in use when
Beethoven was
> alive, and as such, doesn't really allow a listener to hear the full
expression
> that is in the music itself.
> Regards,
>
> Ed Foote
> Precision Piano Works
> Nashville, Tenn. USA
> http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
>
>
tone temperament that such theory was the limit for a composer (deaf or
not)
However as has been pointed out, Fauré was also deaf and he was an
envolope pusher of tonality. As I said in another postng I shouldn't
have qualified my statement by putting a time period on it at all.
Composers work on the material in their minds. Fauré didn't use the
devices that came along in his later years. I can't say why, but maybe
it's because he couldn't hear them. That is they weren't a part of his
pre-deaf experience.
DOYLE60
>Actually I believe that the composition of music only needs ears to
>hear it.
I had a dream once where "Hey Jude" was playing. I could hear every note -- the
piano, the guitar, the voice etc. I knew I was dreaming and just listened to
all the instruments; they were all so crystal clear and well-separated too -- a
good mix. For me this is not the same as imagining music when awake. I have
often wondered if the very gifted can actually hear without sleep what I hear
in my sleep. I have also had dreams where I am composing music and hear it and
edit it and try again. This happened with an orchestra yet I compose rock on
an acoustic. But when awake, I am basically tone deaf.
So I wonder if a composer who has gone deaf can hear in his dreams. Perhaps
you want to second guess yourself again.
True, the little celia in the ear are not moving. But the celia's movement
does send signals to the hearing part of the brain. What is hearing? The
celia moving or the brain synapsing?
Doyle
Jim Fish
doy...@aol.com (DOYLE60) wrote:
> >You are right. I probably shouldn't have qualified my statement at
all.
> >Actually I believe that the composition of music only needs ears to
> >hear it.
>
> I had a dream once where "Hey Jude" was playing. I could hear every
note -- the
> piano, the guitar, the voice etc. I knew I was dreaming and just
listened to
> all the instruments; they were all so crystal clear and well-
separated too -- a
> good mix. For me this is not the same as imagining music when
awake. I have
> often wondered if the very gifted can actually hear without sleep
what I hear
> in my sleep. I have also had dreams where I am composing music and
hear it and
> edit it and try again. This happened with an orchestra yet I compose
rock on
> an acoustic. But when awake, I am basically tone deaf.
>
> So I wonder if a composer who has gone deaf can hear in his dreams.
Perhaps
> you want to second guess yourself again.
No, I don't think I need to second guess myself. You put into words
precisely what I meant only much more clearly. An individual can hear
in his mind what he wants to hear (I think your dream just pointed out
that you have a latent talent which you could develop) What I meant
was that for everyone else it takes their ears to hear the music that
the composer writes.
When I was a poor struggling student I bought a hundred dollar junker
to drive. It had no radio. My friends were somewhat annoyed when I
pointed out that I listened to music in my head (and therefore wasn,t
going to buy a radio) It was then that I learned not everyone else
heard music internally (so to speak) It is still difficult for me to
conceive that there are people who can't (again however, in your case I
hope the dream was an indication of something that you just haven't
developed)
> True, the little celia in the ear are not moving. But the celia's
movement
> does send signals to the hearing part of the brain. What is
hearing? The
> celia moving or the brain synapsing?
I think it is both, the external and the external (the phenomenon of
synesthesia is an example of the senses as receptors and the brain as
the analyzer) My question is, if I go deaf will my internal hearing be
limited only to reexperiencing that body of sounds that I absorbed
when I was capable of hearing, or is my brain capable of synthesizing
new sounds based on the previously absobed data?
Indebted to your eloquence,
Jim
> Doyle
Norman Dryden
Jim Fish wrote in message <7u019l$84p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>When I was a poor struggling student I bought a hundred dollar junker
>to drive. It had no radio. My friends were somewhat annoyed when I
>pointed out that I listened to music in my head (and therefore wasn,t
>going to buy a radio)
Isn't recording and playing stuff in your brain a breach of copyright ? How
are
poor, starving composers and performers to make a living if we all start
doing this.
Norman
Jim Fish
endeavoring to be careful in the future,
Jim
vertigo
>
> So I wonder if a composer who has gone deaf can hear in his dreams. Perhaps
> you want to second guess yourself again.
I think the difference is non-existent. A composer HEARS with the INNER EAR.
Somebody described Aaron Copland, during an interview, picking up some staff music
that was laying around. Immediately he began to tap a figure on the back of his
hand, totally involved in the music he was "hearing" from the staff score. Only
Broadway composers tinkle the piano to hammer out some tune, trying out, for a
conclusion, first C, then C-sharp, etc. (Sorry, Lenny, wherever you are; but that
obviously didn't apply to you!)
vertigo
> Jim Fish wrote in message <7u019l$84p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
> >When I was a poor struggling student I bought a hundred dollar junker
> >to drive. It had no radio. My friends were somewhat annoyed when I
> >pointed out that I listened to music in my head (and therefore wasn,t
> >going to buy a radio)
>
> Isn't recording and playing stuff in your brain a breach of copyright ? How
> are
> poor, starving composers and performers to make a living if we all start
> doing this.
>
> Norman
You're assuming that he doesn't write them out royalty checks in his head.
Jim Fish
ver...@ms22.hinet.net wrote:
> Norman Dryden wrote:
>
> > Jim Fish wrote in message <7u019l$84p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >
> > >When I was a poor struggling student I bought a hundred dollar
junker
> > >to drive. It had no radio. My friends were somewhat annoyed when I
> > >pointed out that I listened to music in my head (and therefore
wasn,t
> > >going to buy a radio)
> >
> > Isn't recording and playing stuff in your brain a breach of
copyright ? How
> > are
> > poor, starving composers and performers to make a living if we all
start
> > doing this.
> >
> > Norman
>
> You're assuming that he doesn't write them out royalty checks in his
head.
Uh...y-e-a-h...that's it (now maybe BMI will get off my case)
Thanks Norman! IOU
Jim
> --
> ********************************
> "What do? Where to? What for?"
> Jack Kerouac
> ON THE ROAD
> ********************************
>
>
--
Dr.Matt
Norman Dryden <ndr...@edin56.xxfreeserve.net> wrote:
>
>Jim Fish wrote in message <7u019l$84p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>>When I was a poor struggling student I bought a hundred dollar junker
>>to drive. It had no radio. My friends were somewhat annoyed when I
>>pointed out that I listened to music in my head (and therefore wasn,t
>>going to buy a radio)
>
>Isn't recording and playing stuff in your brain a breach of copyright ? How
>are
>poor, starving composers and performers to make a living if we all start
>doing this.
No, if you look at the copyright law, it only applies to fixed media.
Interpretive precedents clarify that it does not apply to speculations
about the contents of anybody's mind. This applies equally well to the contents
of composer's minds.
>Norman
>
>
>
--
My CD "Kabala": http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields/cd.html
Matt Fields, DMA http://listen.to/mattaj TwelveToneToyBox http://start.at/tttb
"The syntax of the Now statement is Now." --Microsoft 'enlightenment'
For spammers: http://e-scrub.com/cgi-bin/wpoison/wpoison.cgi
Dr.Matt
Jim Fish <jim_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <19991012121952...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
> doy...@aol.com (DOYLE60) wrote:
>> >You are right. I probably shouldn't have qualified my statement at
>all.
>> >Actually I believe that the composition of music only needs ears to
>> >hear it.
>>
>> I had a dream once where "Hey Jude" was playing. I could hear every
>note -- the
>> piano, the guitar, the voice etc. I knew I was dreaming and just
>listened to
>> all the instruments; they were all so crystal clear and well-
>separated too -- a
>> good mix. For me this is not the same as imagining music when
>awake. I have
>> often wondered if the very gifted can actually hear without sleep
>what I hear
>> in my sleep. I have also had dreams where I am composing music and
>hear it and
>> edit it and try again. This happened with an orchestra yet I compose
>rock on
>> an acoustic. But when awake, I am basically tone deaf.
>>
>Perhaps
>> you want to second guess yourself again.
>
>precisely what I meant only much more clearly. An individual can hear
>in his mind what he wants to hear (I think your dream just pointed out
>that you have a latent talent which you could develop) What I meant
>was that for everyone else it takes their ears to hear the music that
>the composer writes.
More than that, a person can perceive in their mind, especially when dreaming,
things that they can't hear. Many a composer has the experience of
"hearing" in dreams music that sounds wonderful..then transcribing it
faithfully upon waking, and finding that it's not all that good.
> > True, the little celia in the ear are not moving. But the celia's
>movement
>> does send signals to the hearing part of the brain. What is
>hearing? The
>> celia moving or the brain synapsing?
>I think it is both, the external and the external (the phenomenon of
>synesthesia is an example of the senses as receptors and the brain as
>the analyzer) My question is, if I go deaf will my internal hearing be
>limited only to reexperiencing that body of sounds that I absorbed
>when I was capable of hearing, or is my brain capable of synthesizing
>new sounds based on the previously absobed data?
A lot of this is software (mind) and not hardware (brain). Beethoven's
mind was pretty highly trained.
Jim Fish
Yeah. Tell me about it :-) But often there is something there that can
be developed.
> > > True, the little celia in the ear are not moving. But the celia's
> >movement
> >> does send signals to the hearing part of the brain. What is
> >hearing? The
> >> celia moving or the brain synapsing?
>
> >I think it is both, the external and the external (the phenomenon of
> >synesthesia is an example of the senses as receptors and the brain as
> >the analyzer) My question is, if I go deaf will my internal hearing
be
> >limited only to reexperiencing that body of sounds that I absorbed
> >when I was capable of hearing, or is my brain capable of synthesizing
> >new sounds based on the previously absobed data?
>
> A lot of this is software (mind) and not hardware (brain). Beethoven's
> mind was pretty highly trained.
Matt, I'm not sure of what your saying here but it sounds profound ;-)
> --
> My CD "Kabala": http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields/cd.html
> Matt Fields, DMA http://listen.to/mattaj TwelveToneToyBox
http://start.at/tttb
> "The syntax of the Now statement is Now." --
Microsoft 'enlightenment'
> For spammers: http://e-scrub.com/cgi-bin/wpoison/wpoison.cgi
>
Larisa Migachyov
>
> Jim Fish wrote in message <7u019l$84p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
> >When I was a poor struggling student I bought a hundred dollar junker
> >to drive. It had no radio. My friends were somewhat annoyed when I
> >pointed out that I listened to music in my head (and therefore wasn,t
> >going to buy a radio)
>
> Isn't recording and playing stuff in your brain a breach of copyright ? How
> are
> poor, starving composers and performers to make a living if we all start
> doing this.
This is why I only "play" my own music in my brain. No copyright issues.
--
Larisa Migachyov
Quaternion Press Publishing House
Have a math question? Ask the Quaternion at
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