Caccini's Ave Maria
yo...@hotmail.com
recorded by Charlotte Church on Voice of an Angel)? I assume the
original text included the complete hymn (Church sings only the title
words).
Peter T. Daniels
No way she can sing a Caccini trill.
Listen to Nigel Rogers on an Archiv album of Caccini lute songs. One of
the most spectacular recordings ever made. (The CD reissue had a silvery
cover.)
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
tlst...@tpgi.com.au
> Does anyone have any information on the Ave Maria by Caccini (recently
> recorded by Charlotte Church on Voice of an Angel)? I assume the
> original text included the complete hymn (Church sings only the title
> words).
Ssshhhhh........
Careful, don't mention CC around here. Somebody will hear you and we'll be
buried for weeks.
--
Cheers!
Terry
Lyle & Shaun
CC... :)
Instead, let's talk about the Caccini Ave Maria itself. I have my suspicions
about this work! I think it's got a lot in common with pieces like the
Albinoni Adagio and the Rossini Cat Duet, ie. there's really no such thing
and someone's trying to pass it off.
The first time I heard this Ave Maria was in Inessa Galante's recording,
where the 'arrangement' was attributed to Edward Brinums. By my reckoning it
was more wholesale recomposition than arrangement (nothing wrong with that
of course...)
Has anyone heard an 'authentic' performance or even sighted the 'unarranged'
music? That would be most enlightening.
There is simply no way that Giulio Caccini would have composed a melody with
such 1. melodic leaps 2. descending melodic sequences 3. late-baroque
harmonies (at best! -- you can even sing Harold Arlen's "All The Things You
Are" simultaneously to the Caccini Ave Maria, that's how modern the harmony
is.)
So -- I strongly believe this is fake Caccini . Can anyone help?
Lyle Chan
<yo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:39962EC5...@hotmail.com...
Peter T. Daniels
> There is simply no way that Giulio Caccini would have composed a melody with
> such 1. melodic leaps 2. descending melodic sequences 3. late-baroque
> harmonies (at best! -- you can even sing Harold Arlen's "All The Things You
> Are" simultaneously to the Caccini Ave Maria, that's how modern the harmony
> is.)
What relationship does that song bear to Jerome Kern and Oscar
Hammerstein's "All the Things You Are," from *Very Warm for May* (1946)?
> So -- I strongly believe this is fake Caccini . Can anyone help?
There's no Ave Maria on the Nigel Rogers album I mentioned, but that's
not surprising since it's called *Canti Amorosi*.
> <yo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:39962EC5...@hotmail.com...
> > Does anyone have any information on the Ave Maria by Caccini (recently
> > recorded by Charlotte Church on Voice of an Angel)? I assume the
> > original text included the complete hymn (Church sings only the title
> > words).
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
know (and the one most familiar) is by Jerome Kern!
Lyle & Shaun wrote:
> harmonies (at best! -- you can even sing Harold Arlen's "All The Things You
> Are"
>
> Lyle Chan
>
tlst...@tpgi.com.au
<lyle...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> This is going to be hard but I will _not_ give in to the temptation to bury
> CC... :)
>
> Instead, let's talk about the Caccini Ave Maria itself. I have my suspicions
> about this work! I think it's got a lot in common with pieces like the
> Albinoni Adagio and the Rossini Cat Duet, ie. there's really no such thing
> and someone's trying to pass it off.
>
> The first time I heard this Ave Maria was in Inessa Galante's recording,
> where the 'arrangement' was attributed to Edward Brinums. By my reckoning it
> was more wholesale recomposition than arrangement (nothing wrong with that
> of course...)
>
> Has anyone heard an 'authentic' performance or even sighted the 'unarranged'
> music? That would be most enlightening.
>
> There is simply no way that Giulio Caccini would have composed a melody with
> such 1. melodic leaps 2. descending melodic sequences 3. late-baroque
> harmonies (at best! -- you can even sing Harold Arlen's "All The Things You
> Are" simultaneously to the Caccini Ave Maria, that's how modern the harmony
> is.)
>
> So -- I strongly believe this is fake Caccini . Can anyone help?
>
> Lyle Chan
>
I must say I've always been sceptical about it too. However, I can offer
no documentary evidence. It just sounds too unlike everything else I've
heard by Caccini and his contemporaries.
--
Cheers!
Terry
Ludwig...@hotmail.com
For what it's worth, there is no Ave Maria listing in the works list
under Caccini in Groves. Everything listed, matter of fact, is
Italian. Is the Ave in Latin?
--
Mark K. Ehlert
Lyle & Shaun
Kern/HammersteinII song ... pardon.
In reply to Mark Ehlert: The text, what there is of it because it's just the
two words "Ave maria", is in Latin.
In reply to Peter Daniel: How very interesting about the Canti Amorosi! I
will definitely check out the Rogers Archiv album -- but now I'm intrigued.
Are the melody and the harmony of the orchestral version basically intact
from the lute version?
thanks y'all!
Lyle Chan
<Ludwig...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:39980B94...@hotmail.com...
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Hah! I knew that goof would get some attention. Yes, 'All the Things' is the
> Kern/HammersteinII song ... pardon.
>
> In reply to Mark Ehlert: The text, what there is of it because it's just the
> two words "Ave maria", is in Latin.
>
> In reply to Peter Daniel: How very interesting about the Canti Amorosi! I
> will definitely check out the Rogers Archiv album -- but now I'm intrigued.
> Are the melody and the harmony of the orchestral version basically intact
> from the lute version?
As I said, it's not on that album, because it's not a canto amoroso.
(Unless you want to take a particularly literal view of the
Annunciation; but angels are generally understood to be male but to have
no genitals.)
Actually, there are only two Caccini songs on it all together. There's
lots of Monteverdi, so I suspect the CD includes the material from two
LPs. But the "Caccini trill" is a remarkable vocal effect!
Lyle & Shaun
heard an 'original' Caccini Ave Maria. I'm getting convinced there's no such
thing.
Thank, you all, for the contributions.
Lyle Chan
> >
> > In reply to Peter Daniel: How very interesting about the Canti Amorosi!
I
> > will definitely check out the Rogers Archiv album -- but now I'm
intrigued.
> > Are the melody and the harmony of the orchestral version basically
intact
> > from the lute version?
>
Frank Langton
tlst...@tpgi.com.au wrote:
snip of previous post
> >I strongly believe this is fake Caccini . Can anyone help?
> >
> > Lyle Chan
> >
>
> I must say I've always been sceptical about it too. However, I can
offer
> no documentary evidence. It just sounds too unlike everything else
I've
> heard by Caccini and his contemporaries.
>
> --
> Cheers!
> Terry
>
I can shed no evidence on the authenticity of the piece, but I can
vouch for the Brinums arrangement being only an arrangement, as there
is an earlier version sung by Inessa Galante to solo organ
accompaniment. I also know of, but have not heard, recordings made in
Russia before the collapse of the Berlin Wall which preceded the
Galante recording. The Galante / Brinums version is derived from
Russian preservations (or adulterations?) of this particular Ave
Maria. I would love to be able to add the whole story to my website,
so I welcome any further investigations and would like to learn more.
Check out
http://www.dimusic.co.uk/caccini
PS. I will be quite open about the fact that I do have a sort of vested
interest in the Caccini Ave Maria, especially the Galante recordings,
but my search for knowledge here is genuine - I hate having so many
gaps in what could well be a very interesting story indeed.
Frank Langton
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Frank Langton
Frank Langton <damp_p...@my-deja.com> wrote about this subject
and posted a useless link :-) SORRY.
please try
http://www.dimusic.co.uk/caccini.html
Frank.
Lyle & Shaun
this piece of information?
Do you know what sheet music was used by Brinums to make the orchestration?
Ie is it published? Was it handwritten?
Inquring minds want to know!
Many thanks in advance
Lyle Chan
"Frank Langton" <damp_p...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8nk3ja$k14$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Frank Langton
across
> this piece of information?
The piece was listed on various Russian vocalists' recital CDs in
catalogues I saw four or five years ago(these Russian made CDs are now
theoretically, if not actually in practice (?), available worldwide).
I regret that I do not currently have the contacts to confirm further
details, but I know Inessa Galante heard the piece in the then
communist East Europe, and it was "common knowledge" there that it was
attributed to Caccini.
>
> Do you know what sheet music was used by Brinums to make the
orchestration?
> Ie is it published? Was it handwritten?
>
Georgs Brinums arranged only the melody (in a deliberately
anachronistic style suitable for a lyric soprano). I am almost certain
no "authentic" scores were involved at that late stage. Some older
scores must exist somewhere in Russia, but again I have nobody "on the
ground" in Russia to refer to (I am in the UK). Perhaps the Internet
will eventually prove to be the best medium to unravel the history of
this piece?
Frank.
>
> Inquring minds want to know!
>
> Many thanks in advance
>
> Lyle Chan
m.sou...@sympatico.ca
> Does anyone have any information on the Ave Maria by Caccini (recently
> recorded by Charlotte Church on Voice of an Angel)? I assume the
> original text included the complete hymn (Church sings only the title
> words).
