Words I can't figure out
Herb Childs
Who or what is a Vagrom?
Orff's "Manda liet, manda liet ..."
What language is this, and what does it mean?
There's an NPR reporter in Los Angeles whose name sounds like
"Mandaliet del Barco," does her name have a connection to this?
DB
"Herb Childs" <hech...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:1b92e365.04032...@posting.google.com...
> Chadwick's "A Vagrom ballad."
> Who or what is a Vagrom?
>
> Orff's "Manda liet, manda liet ..."
> What language is this, and what does it mean?
http://www.tylatin.org/extras/cb18.html
Terry Dwyer
"Herb Childs" <hech...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1b92e365.04032...@posting.google.com...
> Chadwick's "A Vagrom ballad."
> Who or what is a Vagrom?
I believe it's the same as vagrant. It occurs somewhere in Shakespeare.
>
> Orff's "Manda liet, manda liet ..."
> What language is this, and what does it mean?
Nobody seems to know this one ...
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Herb Childs" <hech...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1b92e365.04032...@posting.google.com...
> > Chadwick's "A Vagrom ballad."
> > Who or what is a Vagrom?
>
> I believe it's the same as vagrant. It occurs somewhere in Shakespeare.
> >
> > Orff's "Manda liet, manda liet ..."
> > What language is this, and what does it mean?
Mandaliet, mandaliet,
Min geselle khummet niet,
Hidey ho, hidey hum,
My companion doesn't come,
[presumably nonsense words in Middle High German]
> Nobody seems to know this one ...
>
> > There's an NPR reporter in Los Angeles whose name sounds like
> > "Mandaliet del Barco," does her name have a connection to this?
I've always thought so -- her parents liked the sound of the words in
the chorus, and simply used them.
Or, it might be a variant of "Margarit," which ultimately goes back to
'Pearl' in Aramaic.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Michael Bednarek
rec.music.classical:
>Chadwick's "A Vagrom ballad."
>Who or what is a Vagrom?
According to <http://home.mn.rr.com/wwftd/uvwxyz.htm>:
vagrom (vay'-grom) [alteration of vagrant, in modern use only after
Shakespeare]
1) vagrant, vagabond, wandering
You shall comprehend all vagrom men. - W. Shakespeare, Much Ado..
2) eccentric, erratic
>Orff's "Manda liet, manda liet ..."
>What language is this, and what does it mean?
It's Middle High German. Most translations of the Carmina Burana
actually don't translate this phrase; however, Gavin Betts at
<http://www.tylatin.org/extras/cb18.html> says:
"The expression manda liet appears to be a combination of the
imperative of the Latin mando and the MHG liet (Mod. German Lied)."
and he translates it as "Send a message".
For those whose Latin is a bit rusty: mandare, in its main meaning, is
1) to commit, entrust
2) to order, command
>There's an NPR reporter in Los Angeles whose name sounds like
>"Mandaliet del Barco," does her name have a connection to this?
Of course not.
--
Michael Bednarek http://mbednarek.com/ "POST NO BILLS"
The Bibliographer
Terry Dwyer <t...@DELETEquorndon.com> wrote:
>"Herb Childs" <hech...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:1b92e365.04032...@posting.google.com...
>> Chadwick's "A Vagrom ballad."
>> Who or what is a Vagrom?
>I believe it's the same as vagrant. It occurs somewhere in Shakespeare.
"Much Ado about Nothing," see below for act and scene.
>> Orff's "Manda liet, manda liet ..."
>> What language is this, and what does it mean?
>Nobody seems to know this one ...
While the line is never translated, and perhaps cannot be, it is clear
that the language is one of the dialects of medieval German, or perhaps
Dutch. The second line is the evidence.
Manda liet, manda liet,
min geselle chumet niet.
Compare the modern German:
Mein Geselle kommet nicht.
And the cognate modern English:
My "Geselle" comes not.
I suspect, but cannot prove, that the "geselle" derives from the Gothic
*geis (swan), which is the ancestor of the modern English
"goose." Perhaps, therefore, "geselle" = "little swan" or even "little
goose."
The "vagrom" is easier, thanks to the <OED>2:
VAGROM:
[Illiterate alteration of VAGRANT a.: cf. INGRAM a. In mod. use only after
Shakespeare.]
1. Vagrant, vagabond, wandering.
1599 SHAKES. Much Ado III. iii. 26 Dogberry. You shall comprehend all
vagrom men. 1863 G. A. SALA Capt. Dangerous I. x. 285 Sheep-stealers,
footpads, vagrom men and women. 1874 M. COLLINS Transmigr. II. ii. 49 With
him came the vagrom guest,..a boy almost. 1882 BESANT All Sorts 164 Born
of a poor vagrom woman.
2. Eccentric, erratic.
1882 Sat. Rev. LIV. 497 Words lose their character and have their
history obscured by being spelled after the vagrom devices of the phonetic
people.
--
Regards, Frank Young
tip...@wam.umd.edu 703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"
Dr.Matt
Or it might be My Lay (as in Song), as the previously-cited web site
suggests.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"Hey, don't knock Placebo, its the only thing effective for my hypochondria."
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Thomas Wood
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40602A...@worldnet.att.net...
Yup, Mandalit del Barco got her name from Carmina Burana:
"For those who are curious where her name comes from, 'Mandalit' is the name
of a woman in a song from Carmina Burana, a musical work from the 13th
century put to music by composer Carl Orff. The guys from Car Talk also pay
homage to her in their phony end credits as "inventory manager Mandalit del
Barcode."
http://www.npr.org/about/people/bios/mbarco.html
...but I doubt "Mandaliet" was meant to be a personal name in the original
text.
Tom Wood
Jeffrey Jones
Childs <hech...@aol.com> wrote:
> Orff's "Manda liet, manda liet ..."
> What language is this, and what does it mean?
> There's an NPR reporter in Los Angeles whose name sounds like
> "Mandaliet del Barco," does her name have a connection to this?
According to her biography on the NPR web site, yes there is a
connection:
Peter T. Daniels
Nor, for that matter, as Orff treated it in the score!
Dr.Matt
So she must be a sister to Lady Mondegreen (Cf Earl of Murray...).
Keith Edgerley
"The Bibliographer" <tip...@wam.umd.edu> a écrit dans le message de
news:c3pfo5$8...@rac3.wam.umd.edu...
> In article <c3p8m6$lpq$1...@hercules.btinternet.com>,
> Terry Dwyer <t...@DELETEquorndon.com> wrote:
> >"Herb Childs" <hech...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:1b92e365.04032...@posting.google.com...
> >> Chadwick's "A Vagrom ballad."
> >> Who or what is a Vagrom?
> >I believe it's the same as vagrant. It occurs somewhere in Shakespeare.
>
> "Much Ado about Nothing," see below for act and scene.
>
> >> Orff's "Manda liet, manda liet ..."
> >> What language is this, and what does it mean?
> >Nobody seems to know this one ...
>
> While the line is never translated, and perhaps cannot be, it is clear
> that the language is one of the dialects of medieval German, or perhaps
> Dutch. The second line is the evidence.
>
> Manda liet, manda liet,
> min geselle chumet niet.
>
> Compare the modern German:
>
> Mein Geselle kommet nicht.
>
> And the cognate modern English:
>
> My "Geselle" comes not.
>
> I suspect, but cannot prove, that the "geselle" derives from the Gothic
> *geis (swan), which is the ancestor of the modern English
> "goose." Perhaps, therefore, "geselle" = "little swan" or even "little
> goose."
>
IIRC Geselle means a companion regarded as one of a group sharing a room.
(cf. com-panion "someone who shares meals (bread").
Ge- is a collective prefix. As in Gebrüder (brothers, normally in
partnership), Geschwister (siblings in general),a Gesinde (domestics or
farm-hands)
--
Keith Edgerley
Is it not strange that sheeps' guts should hale souls out
of men's bodies?
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Nothing of the kind. 'Geselle' means a companion, a young man in general
or a young man of the rank usually translated into English as
'journeyman', i.e. a trainee craftsman who has graduated from being an
apprentice but has not yet qualified as a master. In poetry such as
this, 'companion' is of course extendable to 'lover'. In any case, since
the line means "my young man does not come", the speaker in the poem is
a woman, and thus it would be difficult to explain why "Manda liet"
should be a woman's name.
The word 'Geselle' comes from the Germanic 'Saal' ('room' or 'hall') and
means someone who lives in the same room as someone else, i.e. a
companion, in the same way that 'comrade' goes back to the Latin
'camera' ('room').
--
Regards,
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Helsinki, Finland
To reply by e-mail, remove EQUALS.
"Nil significat nisi oscillat. Du vap. Du vap. Du vap."
Edward A. Cowan
Hausgenosse'; Kollektivbildung zu ahd. sal; -> Saal]"
Note that the modern German word _Geselle_ has several meanings based
on the idea of "association". A _Geselle_ is an associate, an
apprentice, etc. (A negative example of a friend or associate occurs
in Schubert's song "Der Doppelgänger," Schwanengesang, no.no.13: "Du
Doppelgänger, du bleicher Geselle!" ("You double, you pale
companion!") (Cf. the noun _Gesellschaft_ is also a collective noun
meaning "association, company".) --E.A.C.
tip...@wam.umd.edu (The Bibliographer) wrote in message news:<c3pfo5$8...@rac3.wam.umd.edu>...
Prai Jei
<c3pfo5$8...@rac3.wam.umd.edu> thusly:
> I suspect, but cannot prove, that the "geselle" derives from the Gothic
> *geis (swan), which is the ancestor of the modern English
> "goose." Perhaps, therefore, "geselle" = "little swan" or even "little
> goose."
Sounds more like "Seele" (soul) with the collective prefix ge- (cf. Gebirge
"mountain range"). Geselle = "collection of souls", "companionship of
souls", something of that sort? With the abstract suffix -schaft (cogn.
English "-ship") we get Gesellschaft "company".
> The "vagrom" is easier, thanks to the <OED>2:
The spammists keep advertising little blue pills with a name something like
that. I don't need them myself so I wouldn't know :)
--
Paul Townsend
I put it down there, and when I went back to it, there it was GONE!
Interchange the alphabetic elements to reply
Prai Jei
<40602A...@worldnet.att.net> thusly:
> Mandaliet, mandaliet,
> Min geselle khummet niet,
>
> Hidey ho, hidey hum,
> My companion doesn't come,
>
> [presumably nonsense words in Middle High German]
>
> Or, it might be a variant of "Margarit," which ultimately goes back to
> 'Pearl' in Aramaic.
Could the companion's name be [A]manda?
> Manda liet, manda liet, [inserting spaces]
Mandy lies, Mandy lies
where "lies" could mean either "tells porkies" or "stays away [in bed]=[from
me]", or perhaps carries both these meanings at once.