Hindemith-like Composers
Andrew Pontinen
I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
Thanks,
Andrew
Stephen Luttmann
Andrew Pontinen (AP2...@torfree.net) wrote:
: I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
: to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
Try the music of any of his students! (*evil sarcastic grin*--but this is
mostly true.)
You might want to investigate Ernst Toch as well while you're at it.
Justin Rubin
On 24 Jul 1997, Andrew Pontinen wrote:
>
> I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
> to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
>
In general, Hindemith was a part of a movement begun by Hermann Grabner
called the Orgelbewebung which was responsible for going back to the music
principals of the turn of the 17th C (to composers such as Johann Hermann
Schein, Samuel Scheidt, etc). The major composer along the lines of
Hindemith with a liturgical bent is the overwhelmingly beautiful composer
Hugo Distler (1908-42) who committed suicide in the face of the Nazi
regime. I recommend most highly "Nun komm der Heiden Heiland" and "Wachet
auf" for organ and the Morike Chorlieder and Totentanz for chorus.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
Justin Henry Rubin
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~jhr
Lindy
Andrew Pontinen wrote:
>
> I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
> to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
I can think of only one.
Samuel Barber - Sonata for Piano
Stephen Luttmann
Justin Rubin (j...@U.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
: In general, Hindemith was a part of a movement begun by Hermann Grabner
: called the Orgelbewebung which was responsible for going back to the music
: principals of the turn of the 17th C (to composers such as Johann Hermann
: Schein, Samuel Scheidt, etc).
I don't find this at all convincing. For one thing, Hindemith's
neo-Baroque works are stylistically much more beholden to the late
Baroque and more specifically to its instrumental styles (thus all that
"sewing-machine music") than to the more vocally-oriented styles
characteristic of most Schein, Scheidt, etschetera. For another, the
Orgelbewegung was a lot larger than Grabner, and certainly preceded any
influence he had upon it (it includes Wilibald Gurlitt and Albert
Schweitzer), and sure did include a lot of interest in the late Baroque,
specifically the Bach organ. For another, Hindemith was already writing
neo-(late-)Baroque works while Grabner was still establishing himself.
Finally, one might wish to argue some similarities in intent between
Hindemith's organ sonatas and Grabner's ideas, but these may have more
to do with a common heritage (specifically, Reger and the back-to-Bach
aspects of the greater Orgelbewegung and music in general) than with
Grabner, who, if Hindemith had ever heard of him, was never mentioned in
any letter of Hindemith's I've seen to date, nor in any of the secondary
literature on Hindemith. (Hindemith may be mentioned somewhere in the
Grabner literature, but he certainly didn't make it to the Grabner
articles in Grove, MGG, etc., which do attempt to ferret out composers
upon whom Grabner had had some influence, and which would therefore have
had an interest in including Hindemith's name if possible and reasonable
to do so.)
Ken Johnson
In article <W925937Q631129...@torfree.net>, AP2...@torfree.net
(Andrew Pontinen) wrote:
> I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
> to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
>
Try Harald Genzmer, a German composer who, I believe, is still living, in
his 80s. I'm familiar with his Trio for viola, flute, and harp, and
highly recommend it, both for its similarities to Hindemithian music and
for its own sake.
Brian Newhouse
> I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
> to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
>
>
If you're looking for the early, wise-guy Hindemith of the twenties, he
had a fair number of Central European contemporaries who started out like
him from that basis. Consider for starters Weill in his less
down-and-dirty moods (the two symphonies, the violin concerto, _Der Zar
lasst sich photographieren_, even _Mahagonny); also Erwin Schulhoff's
chamber music.
For something closer to later Hindemith but still distinctive
(particularly in rhythm!), take a look at Michael Tippett, particularly
the large-scale instrumental works of the forties and fifties (2nd & 3rd
string quartets, Fantasia concertante on a theme of Corelli, piano
concerto, 1st & 2nd symphonies)
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
Pelleas
I am also
Prehaps the first Kurt Weill is similar to the first Hindemith ?
Claude
Andrew Pontinen <AP2...@torfree.net> a écrit dans l'article
<W925937Q631129...@torfree.net>...
>
> I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
> to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
Stephen Luttmann
Justin Rubin (j...@U.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
: Let's not get off on a bad-mouthing Grabner bit, he's really not that
: important.
Bad-mouthing Grabner was the last thing on my mind, and (I believe)
hardly what I did. One could more persuasively argue that I was saving
him from your grotesquely exaggerated and/or factually insupportable
claims about his place in history and influence on Hindemith. Holding up
relatively minor figures as great ones is one of the worst favors one
can do for them, since it ultimately serves to inspire derision rather
than respect.
: However, the close ties between the quartal harmonic and
: rhytmically detonating work of Distler with works such as the Hindemith
: Kammermusik with the organ (#5?) or the third organ sonata (where he draws
: on chorales) make Distler, Joseph Ahrens, Pepping, and Flor Peters obvious
: compatriots,
Not as obvious as you might think. They might have learned something of
their harmonic language from Hindemith (I'm not sure what you mean by
"rhythmically detonating"), although this could also just be some other
kind of studied archaism in their style. In any event you're making some
problematic connections. Hindemith also used chorales in the Trauermusik,
but more arguably in both cases because he was really busy being folk-y at
the time (he was hopeful of being accepted by the Nazis without being
associated with them, and figured that a good dollop of gesundes
Volksempfinden would help). Finally, I don't know whether there's
anything harmonically, contrapuntally or structurally more (e.g.)
Peeters-like in the Kammermusik Nr. 7 or the organ sonatas than in any of
the other contemporary sonatas or numbers in the Kammermusik series
(excepting the first, of course!). Arguably there are similarities, and
perhaps even influences (of whom upon whom?) in instrument-specific
writing, but since you were discussing harmony and rhythm . . .
: and I'm sure anyone who enjoys that particular style of
: Hindemith would enjoy these others as well.
No problem with that.
Eric Schissel
Though it certainly admits of other influences as well, try the music of
Kurt Hessenberg. Presently only two CDs are available of his music (a song
cycle on- I forget the label at the moment, but it's distributed by
Qualiton- and organ music on Motette), but hopefully this will change.
-Eric Schissel
Justin Rubin
Let's not get off on a bad-mouthing Grabner bit, he's really not that
important. However, the close ties between the quartal harmonic and
rhytmically detonating work of Distler with works such as the Hindemith
Kammermusik with the organ (#5?) or the third organ sonata (where he draws
on chorales) make Distler, Joseph Ahrens, Pepping, and Flor Peters obvious
compatriots, and I'm sure anyone who enjoys that particular style of
Hindemith would enjoy these others as well.
Bruce
Regarding Hindemithian composers, I think Easley Blackwood started out by
writing music that had some Hindemithian mannerisms (I believe he was a
student of Hindemith's). An example would probably be his 1st Symphony.
I have mixed feelings about Blackwood. I liked early Blackwood, but was
put off by some of the music in his "atonal" period. Of recent
compositions, his 5th Symphony is wonderful. I seem to recall that
Blackwood said he wanted to write a symphony that Sibelius might have
written if he had lived for 5 more years etc., or something to that
effect. The 5th Symphony has some extremely eloquent melodic invention;
the second movement has some passages that have considerable poignancy. I
consider it to be one of the best symphonies written by an American
composer in recent years. Any other opinions about this symphony?
Bruce
b...@efn.org
Stephen Luttmann
Andrew Pontinen (AP2...@torfree.net) wrote:
: I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
: to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
Some of the works Henze wrote in the late 1940s have quite a bit of
Hindemith in them. They also serve as an excellent bridge to Henze's
later works.
jaq...@en.com
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.970724...@garcia.efn.org>,
Bruce <b...@efn.org> wrote:
Haven't heard it, would like to. Alvin Etler and Bernard Heiden come to
mind as the most Hindemithy Americans, as well as Klaus George Roy (a
Clevelander). Hindemith had a reputation as a kind of soul-sucking vacuum
cleaner whose students sounded much like him. It didn't have to be
person-to-person either; a classmate (who shall remain nameless) wrote a
band piece after reading _The Craft of Musical Composition_. He had a
chance to hear it under the critique of Vincent Persichetti. When
Persichetti asked him if he had heard the piece before, he said, "Yes- and
you have too." And I'm not much for quartal harmony in general--it tends
to greyness and turgidity.
Arnold Cooke was the big British Hindemite. I'll second the
recommendation of Distler though- one of the better choral composers of
the century.
> Bruce
> b...@efn.org
--
Jeffrey Quick
http://www.en.com/users/jaquick
"...if the creative artist is _aware_, he must ask every subject asking for treatment two _heavy_ questions: Is it _fun_? Is it (may it be) beautiful?" --John Alden Carpenter
Gareth McGuiness
Pelleas wrote:
> Prehaps the first Kurt Weill is similar to the first Hindemith ?
Perhaps try Kurt Weill's symphonies (1 & 2), and his Violin Concerto.
Allan Jones
Bruce wrote:
> I seem to recall that
> Blackwood said he wanted to write a symphony that Sibelius might have
> written if he had lived for 5 more years etc., or something to that
> effect.
That's interesting. However, one has the impression that even if
Sibelius had lived for another 50 years he wouldn't have produced a new
symphony! It's not as though he ran out of time.
I'll look out for Blackwood, though.
Allan Jones
a.j...@open.ac.uk
S. Alan Schweitzer
Over the years I have heard many orchestral works by this
esteemed composer. I like in particular hia "Mathis der Maler,"
which dates, I believe, from 1933. His neo-Baroque,
neo-classical tendencies ( along with his "linear counterpoint)
have probably influenced many twentieth century composers.
Although the Grove states emphatically that Hindemith "has
exerted no significant influence on composers of later
generations, it fails to mention at least one; viz, the
Norwegian composer Klaus Egge. Egge's earlier works do
suggest sundry Hindemithian persuasions: the First Symphony,
and the delightful Second Piano Concerto, still available on
Norway Music BD 7026.
I had the opportunity to meet Egge many years back. He
stated emphatically that he admired Hindemith and was
influenced by his neo-classical technique.
Rouat emmanuel
Allan Jones wrote:
>
> Bruce wrote:
> > I seem to recall that
> > Blackwood said he wanted to write a symphony that Sibelius might have
> > written if he had lived for 5 more years etc., or something to that
> > effect.
>
> That's interesting. However, one has the impression that even if
> Sibelius had lived for another 50 years he wouldn't have produced a new
> symphony! It's not as though he ran out of time.
>
Didn't he write an 8th symphony, which he burned after completion?
manu
Bruce
On 25 Jul 1997, S. Alan Schweitzer wrote:
> Although the Grove states emphatically that Hindemith "has
> exerted no significant influence on composers of later
> generations, it fails to mention at least one; viz, the
> Norwegian composer Klaus Egge. Egge's earlier works do
> suggest sundry Hindemithian persuasions: the First Symphony,
> and the delightful Second Piano Concerto, still available on
> Norway Music BD 7026.
> I had the opportunity to meet Egge many years back. He
> stated emphatically that he admired Hindemith and was
> influenced by his neo-classical technique.
Although I was never conscious of a Hindemith influence in Egge's music, I
found myself liking it very much. Klaus Egge definitely deserves to be
better known. His Violin Concerto has a delicate lyricism to it which
impressed me. His 4th Symphony has moments of great power, energy and
symphonic sweep. He probably didn't have a musical gift comparable to
someone like Hilding Rosenberg of Sweden, but every work of Egge's that I
know struck me as being the work of a craftsman. Does anyone know Egge's
symphonies well enough (I believe he wrote five) to venture an opinion
about which would be the best and most melodically inventive?
Bruce
b...@efn.org
Bruce
Actually, I think what Blackwood meant is that if Sibelius had been
*inclined* to write another symphony towards the end of his life, he might
conceivably have produced a symphony superficially similar to what
Blackwood composed. As regards an 8th symphony, I seem to recall that
Sibelius's wife is supposed to have said to him: "Tell them the
truth--there is no 8th symphony," which suggests to me that Sibelius never
attempted to write an 8th symphony. At least that's my impression.
Bruce
b...@efn.org
QQSV (Dick Wagman)
Gareth McGuiness wrote:
I'd say the first Weill symphony might be Hindemithian; I'm less sure
about the second. But one thing I'm very sure about: Weill's
Symphony #2 is one of the twentieth century's symphonic masterpieces,
and has been massively neglected compared to its quality--and, I
might add, general accessibility. So, if you are going to sample
Weill's work, you should *definitely* listen to a performance of the
second symphony, Hindemithian or not.
--Q (Dick Wagman)
Email: wag...@odi.com
Kenneth Lawless
> I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
> to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
The late Bernard Heiden was a Hindemith disciple.
Bruce
Speaking of Hessenberg (who I had never heard of before), there is the
German composer Harald Genzmer. I remember hearing a piano concerto of
his many years ago and found it interesting and likeable. Any other
comments regarding the significance and quality of Genzmer's music?
Bruce
b...@efn.org
Eric Schissel
There are at least 4 Egge symphonies, of which the first 4 have been
recorded at one point or another. I've heard #3, I think.
-Eric Schissel
WilliePitt
"I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?"
C'mon! There's **no one** like Hindemith!
lanza
Absolutely. Sibelius didn't compose a symphony for about the last
twenty years of his life. So if he DID live another five years and
composed a symphony, it would probably have sounded like Danny Elfman's
Batman score! :)
--
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lanza
Never believe what you read in books anyway. Who the hell knows who
influenced whom. It'll take another 300 years before we come to
conclusions on this issue. Both in pop and classical, influences are
very devious; and many pop stylists, for example, assert influences from
previous artists with styles completely unlike their own. We all know
the theories about Chopin's influences by Italian fioratura techniques,
etc., which are now largely discredited.
Sigvard Selinus
Eric Schissel wrote:
>
> Though it certainly admits of other influences as well, try the music of
> Kurt Hessenberg. Presently only two CDs are available of his music (a song
> cycle on- I forget the label at the moment, but it's distributed by
> Qualiton- and organ music on Motette), but hopefully this will change.
> -Eric Schissel
Some ten years ago I played Hessenberg's Triosonata for the Organ. I
thought it was best in the faster movements. I enjoyed it very much
(more than Hugo Distler's for instance). Since almost no one is playing
that kind of music today I'll do it again the coming year.
/ Sigvard Selinus
Stockholm, Sweden
S. Alan Schweitzer
Egge's earlier works were flavored with a significant dosis of
Norwegian folk elements. This is particularly noted in his
Second Piano Concert. His First Symphony is quirte expansive
and was dedicated to the memory of Norwegian seamen killed in
WW II. Egge was not all that impressed with the Symphony.
The Piano Concerto is a happy blend of impressionism and
neo-classicism with some Hindemith harmonics.
His later work is influenced by serial tendencies; yet he never
completely abandoned tonality. His music is highly individual
and is quite contrapuntal with fugal tendencies.
Piper
On 24 Jul 1997 09:39:51 +0200, AP2...@torfree.net (Andrew Pontinen)
wrote:
>
>I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
>to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Andrew
I read all the other posts in this thread and I must say I admire many
of you for your knowledge of obscure music and composers. I guess
you'll all virtually kill me, but I always have associated Hindemith
with being a modernist extension of the post-Wagner line - modernist
but more conservative than Berg, Schoenberg and Webern. I associate
him with those 3 great 12-tone composers, and also with Schoenberg's
teacher Zemlinsky, as well as Gustav Mahler. Are these composers
extremely similar in style to Hindemith? No, not extremely. But
they're all part of the same line.
Incidentally, Harald Genzmer wrote etudes for solo flute. I've played
them all. They're rather good and indeed very similar to Hindemith.
Sincerely,
Michael
Caius Marcius
>On 24 Jul 1997 09:39:51 +0200, AP2...@torfree.net (Andrew Pontinen)
>wrote:
>
>>
>>I very much enjoy music by Paul Hindemith. What composers are similar
>>to him in style? Which of their works could be recommended?
Another piece is just thought is Finnish composer Einar Englund's (b.
1916 - ) Symphony No. 2. Englund is one of those composers who,
although he does not really have a distinctively individual style, does
smashing imitations of other composers' styles. His usual models are
Shostakovich, Sibelius, or Prokofiev, but in the "Blackbird" Symphony
he follows Hindemith - especially in the finale which has one of those
galumphing and relentlessly cheerful themes that seems to come straight
from Hindemith's sketchbook.
BTW, I see that Chandos has just released a new recording of
Hindemith's Pittsburgh Symphony (with the BBC Sym, under Tortelier).
If you like Hindemith at all, you must hear this piece; especially the
finale, based on an old Alleghany folk tune made famous by Woodie
Guthrie ("This Train").
- CMC
Shelia2972
>I read all the other posts in this thread and I must say I admire many
>of you for your knowledge of obscure music and composers. I guess
>you'll all virtually kill me, but I always have associated Hindemith
>with being a modernist extension of the post-Wagner line - modernist
>but more conservative than Berg, Schoenberg and Webern. I associate
>him with those 3 great 12-tone composers, and also with Schoenberg's
>teacher Zemlinsky, as well as Gustav Mahler. Are these composers
>extremely similar in style to Hindemith? No, not extremely. But
>they're all part of the same line.
>
>Incidentally, Harald Genzmer wrote etudes for solo flute. I've played
>them all. They're rather good and indeed very similar to Hindemith.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
It hought Hindemith didn't do too much with the 12 tone series...I thought
that was just with his tuba sonata. But I could be wrong.
Kate
"We were all born wet naked and hungry...Then things got worse."
Eric Schissel
Also worth looking into is Max Trapp, whose music is in some general sense
quite "Hindemithian" (though it pays to distinguish what, exactly, one
means by this; Hindemith's 2nd string trio, for instance, is different
enough from his 3rd string quartet as to make the term "Hindemithian" less
useful.)
-Eric Schissel
Stephen Luttmann
Caius Marcius (cori...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: BTW, I see that Chandos has just released a new recording of
: Hindemith's Pittsburgh Symphony (with the BBC Sym, under Tortelier).
: If you like Hindemith at all, you must hear this piece; especially the
: finale, based on an old Alleghany folk tune made famous by Woodie
: Guthrie ("This Train").
No kidding! It's one of the strangest pieces PH ever wrote; here his
neo-Regerian boisterousness goes over the top into naked ferocity. You
won't find any word of this in his own program notes (written in a style
PH would have dismissed contemptuously in his younger years, btw), but
it's all over the music. Either that, or he'd temporarily lost any sense
of musical affect. Just listen to the way he explodes the calm
(however spooky) of the slow movement with that ghastly "Hab'lumbe-
druwwel" tune, which forgets how it goes halfway through--and, PH's own
theories be damned, is played bitonally as well . . . certainly his
charming Pennsylvania Dutch had been hitting the sauce, as well as
anything else within fist's reach. And yes, let's talk about that tune at
the end of the ostinato finale, its crude pentatonicism marching brutally
over a Hexenkessel of dissonant woodwinds and string glissandi. (It
sounds even nastier on repetition, thanks to the ratcheted-up volume
level, the dissonant (pitched) string crescendo climaxing on an off-beat
cymbal crash and, of course, the slower tempo.)
Don't get me wrong. I really like the piece, which is well written (as
one would expect) and unusually colorful, even for late Hindemith. But
the fascinating part is that the colors, and the affects, are so
deliberately unpretty. I can't help thinking that Hindemith, who was a
great nature lover and who, by the time he'd written the piece, left his
Swiss chalet only for conducting gigs, may have been fascinated by
Pittsburgh, but really hated just about everything about it.
Piper
On 30 Jul 1997 04:05:51 GMT, sheli...@aol.com (Shelia2972) wrote:
>>I read all the other posts in this thread and I must say I admire many
>>of you for your knowledge of obscure music and composers. I guess
>>you'll all virtually kill me, but I always have associated Hindemith
>>with being a modernist extension of the post-Wagner line - modernist
>>but more conservative than Berg, Schoenberg and Webern. I associate
>>him with those 3 great 12-tone composers, and also with Schoenberg's
>>teacher Zemlinsky, as well as Gustav Mahler. Are these composers
>>extremely similar in style to Hindemith? No, not extremely. But
>>they're all part of the same line.
>>
>>Incidentally, Harald Genzmer wrote etudes for solo flute. I've played
>>them all. They're rather good and indeed very similar to Hindemith.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>
>>Michael
>
>It hought Hindemith didn't do too much with the 12 tone series
I didn't think so either.
>...I thought
>that was just with his tuba sonata.
I don't know about any use of 12-tone rows in that sonata, either. But
that isn't my point. As I wrote previously, I see Hindemith as a
composer who continued the post-Wagnerian line in a modernist
direction, but a more conservative modernist direction than the early
12-tone composers. Hindemith wrote many pieces that were virtually
atonal ("pantonal" for you Schoenberg fans :) but he seems to nearly
always END with a big tonal cadence.
> But I could be wrong.
You could be wrong, you could be right. I don't know and it doesn't
really have much to do with my point. I think there are many things
about the character of early 20th-century Austrian/German modernism
which are much more important than the use or non-use of tone-rows,
anyway.
Of course, it's all grist for the mill.
Sincerely,
Michael
Caius Marcius
In <5rnfs6$co2$1...@Masala.CC.UH.EDU> lutt...@Bayou.UH.EDU (Stephen
Luttmann) writes:
>
>Caius Marcius (cori...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: BTW, I see that Chandos has just released a new recording of
>: Hindemith's Pittsburgh Symphony (with the BBC Sym, under Tortelier).
>: If you like Hindemith at all, you must hear this piece; especially
the
>: finale, based on an old Alleghany folk tune made famous by Woodie
>: Guthrie ("This Train").
>
>No kidding! It's one of the strangest pieces PH ever wrote; here his
>neo-Regerian boisterousness goes over the top into naked ferocity.
<long snip>
>
>Don't get me wrong. I really like the piece, which is well written
(as
>one would expect) and unusually colorful, even for late Hindemith.
But
>the fascinating part is that the colors, and the affects, are so
>deliberately unpretty. I can't help thinking that Hindemith, who was
a
>great nature lover and who, by the time he'd written the piece, left
his
>Swiss chalet only for conducting gigs, may have been fascinated by
>Pittsburgh, but really hated just about everything about it.
Your vivid description fits this music to a "T". The Pittsburgh
Symphony is the sort of subversive, off-the-wall music that one expects
from a youthful composer as he sows his wild oats, rather than from the
late utterances of an acknowledged Master who is only a few years away
from meeting his Maker. The only analogy I can think of offhand is the
opening movement of Shostakovich's 15th Symphony, that flawlessly
evokes the DSCH of the 1930s - but this cheerfully dynamic music seems
to be prompted by nostalgia for the composer's vanished youth, whereas
Pittsburgh, for better or (more likely) worse, is firmly planted in the
here and now.
- CMC
Ken Johnson
> >Caius Marcius (cori...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> >
> >: BTW, I see that Chandos has just released a new recording of
> >: Hindemith's Pittsburgh Symphony (with the BBC Sym, under Tortelier).
>
This is a great CD which I've been playing again and again during the past
few weeks. I want to put in a plug for the other big piece on the disc,
the Symphonic Dances, which i found at first more immediately appealing
than the Pittsburgh Symphony. The Dances sound much like Nobilissime
Visione, which, the liner notes informed me, were both composed about the
same time.
I wish American orchestras would program more of Hindemith's music. Does
he appear any more frequently on the programs of European orchestras?
Allan Jones
Ken Johnson wrote:
> I wish American orchestras would program more of Hindemith's music. Does
> he appear any more frequently on the programs of European orchestras?
Probably not, although I haven't done a survey. The 'Symphonic
Metamorphoses on Themes by Weber' (can't remember the exact title, but
you know the piece) is an orchestral showpiece that gets wheeled out
from time to time. The Mathis der Mahler symphony gets the occasional
airing. For the rest, virtually nothing. I'd say that Hindemith has a
reputation for dry, mechanical music. No doubt this is an unfounded, but
it seems unshakeable.
His opera Mathis der Mahler was, nevertheless, staged in London a couple
of years ago - to general acclaim, if I recall correctly. I missed it.
Allan Jones
a.j...@open.ac.uk
Stephen Luttmann
3E1FBD...@zopen.zac.zuk>
<bart2x-0108...@sdn-ts-002njhackp01.dialsprint.net>:
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution:
bar...@sprintmail.com wrote:
: It is Hindemith's many sonatas that continue to encourage this view. I
: agree; it's too bad that many are unfortunately prejudiced against the big
: orchestral works because of too close familiarity with the often
: lackluster chamber works. Those sonatas -- and I don't mean to start a
: row, but...-- they are DEADLY. Craftsmanly, yes; stolid, yes. (And the
: Viola Sonata is very nice, I grant you.) His idea was right: there's not
: enough repertory for those instruments. But....
Well, okay, you asked for it. :) I think the sonatas have a bad
reputation because (a) every university or conservatory music student,
however modestly gifted with musicality, ends up playing one of them
sooner or later; (b) they aren't particularly razzle-dazzly colorful (but
then, one can say this about most of Hindemith's music; (c) twentieth-
century composers tend to be looked down upon for flouting the various
notions of genius that we've carried over all too critically from the
Beethoven-Berlioz-Liszt/Wagner tradition (i.e. composers are supposed to
be motivated by musical instrumentation, not a desire to compose something
for every instrument and/or piano; composers aren't supposed to be
terribly prolific, instead distilling their genius like so much XO
cognac).
When people make such blanket judgments about the sonatas, I like
challenging them by asking: Where does this stolidity come from? If they
object to their lack of color, then I invite them to dismiss just about
everything Hindemith wrote--and I can then write them off as unusually
superficial listeners. If they tell me that formally they're all alike, I
dismiss that notion easily enough by pointing out that the three-or
four-movement sonata procedure with sonata-allegro, slow movement,
optional scherzo and rondo or sonata finale is the exception, not the
rule. In any case it's no trouble to get them to except the earlier
sonatas from their judgment--it's cool to like the sonatas from opp. 11
and 25, for instance. And finally, granted that some sonatas will be more
imagination-driven than others (one could of course say this without any
exposure to any of them; it's part of the human condition), it's nice to
get down to a brass-tacks (and -knuckles) discussion of particular
examples. Then one finds out what one really likes or dislikes about
Hindemith beyond any appreciation of the music's qualities. (I think the
Clarinet sonata is quite good, actually, although the initial--barely
decorated--rising chain of fourths followed by a descending chain of
thirds sounds very much like a cynical imitation of Hindemith's style!)
Or, for that matter, the incredibly lackluster quality of most
performances (the First Piano Sonata is brilliant, but between various
dull performances by people named Laugs, Petermandl and Roberts, and a
uselessly off-the-wall performance by Gould, what is the "serious record
collector" to think?). But there are too many exceptions to the "stolid
Hindemith sonata" generalization (the piano sonatas, esp. nos. 1 and 3;
the two-piano sonata; at least no. 2 of the organ sonatas; the horn
sonata, the tuba sonata--and a few others, all without hitting the ones
with opus numbers) to render that generalization not terribly useful.
bar...@sprintmail.com
In article <33E1FB...@zopen.zac.zuk>, Allan Jones
<a.j...@zopen.zac.zuk> wrote:
[snip]
> I'd say that Hindemith has a
> reputation for dry, mechanical music. No doubt this is an unfounded, but
> it seems unshakeable.
>
It is Hindemith's many sonatas that continue to encourage this view. I
agree; it's too bad that many are unfortunately prejudiced against the big
orchestral works because of too close familiarity with the often
lackluster chamber works. Those sonatas -- and I don't mean to start a
row, but...-- they are DEADLY. Craftsmanly, yes; stolid, yes. (And the
Viola Sonata is very nice, I grant you.) His idea was right: there's not
enough repertory for those instruments. But....
good sounds your way,
bart in nj
--
bar...@sprintmail.com
Yeshiva University Dept. of Music
Stephen Luttmann
Stephen Luttmann (lutt...@Bayou.UH.EDU) wrote:
[blah blah blah]
: (c) twentieth-
: century composers tend to be looked down upon for flouting the various
: notions of genius that we've carried over all too critically
oops! *un*critically . . .
: from the
: Beethoven-Berlioz-Liszt/Wagner tradition (i.e. composers are supposed to
: be motivated by musical instrumentation,
oops! *inspiration* (although "instrumentation" isn't totally out of
place, considering how big a deal tone color became during the course of
the 19th and 20th centuries) . . .
: not a desire to compose something
Eric Schissel
There were some really fine performances of the 3rd piano sonata on LP
back when, including one coupled with Dutilleux's scintillating f# minor
sonata on Orion.
I've been mulling over in my mind why Hindemith's post-1938 music gets a
bad rap; most of what I've heard has if anything been better than it
should be, including the four pieces for bassoon and cello, which .should.
be a didactic set of exercises- few if any expression marks, no indication
as to which instrument should play which part- but succeeds in the hardest
musical art, that of convincing and memorable melody. (The neat harmonic
turns don't hurt, of course.)
Further, if anything I prefer, say, the 2nd string trio to the first; the
first is urgent but a bit loud; the second has a quite amazing .feeling.
about its first movement, and is bursting with tonally flexible,
invigoratingly worked-out themes.
While I don't know the late sonatas (the wind sonatas, the 1940
cello/piano sonatas, etc.) at all well, it's my plan for the next few
weeks to listen to a lot of late Hindemith in performances by artists I
esteem. If I come to agree that the sonatas are "deadly"... or even
"DEADLY"... I intend to say so, then; but I doubt I will.
-Eric Schissel
bar...@sprintmail.com
In article <5rt6c8$7if$1...@Masala.CC.UH.EDU>, lutt...@Bayou.UH.EDU (Stephen
Luttmann) wrote:
[snip]
> Well, okay, you asked for it. :) I think the sonatas have a bad
> reputation because (a) every university or conservatory music student,
> however modestly gifted with musicality, ends up playing one of them
> sooner or later; (b) they aren't particularly razzle-dazzly colorful (but
> then, one can say this about most of Hindemith's music; (c) twentieth-
> century composers tend to be looked down upon for flouting the various
> notions of genius that we've carried over all too critically from the
> Beethoven-Berlioz-Liszt/Wagner tradition (i.e. composers are supposed to
> be motivated by musical instrumentation, not a desire to compose something
> for every instrument and/or piano; composers aren't supposed to be
> terribly prolific, instead distilling their genius like so much XO
> cognac).
[snip]
Yup, it's hard to disagree with (a), (b), or (c). After posting, I
realized how many times I've heard the wind sonatas of Hindemith performed
by players in the early stage of their careers. I, myself, played the tpt
sonata on a number of occasions -- once when I was a high school junior
(and I don't want to hear that tape, though my mom thought it was great).
Because brass and some other players have precious small repertories, we
hear these pieces until they are etched into the warp of our cortexes. And
violinists and cellists and pianists, who sit through these same recitals
in school, also hear those pieces and cannot help but compare them with
their own repertory that enviably includes many more notable works.
But, Hindemith's sonatas are just about tops in the repertories of several
instruments. We simply wish Hindemith had been even better at them than he
was.
Nor is it fair to point out that even a somewhat ragged playing of one of
the Mozart violin sonatas can project a kind of charm that isn't projected
by the Hindemith sonatas. We (justly?) can agree that we "know Mozart, and
Hindemith is no..." (Who is?) And we quickly get nowhere, agreed.
I teach an intro course in music each semester to general undergrad
students -- a fulfillment of a liberal arts requirement. This puzzle is
common among my students who want to know by what right a critic dismisses
one piece over another, one composer over another (why Beethoven and not
Hummel?), or why we can't spend the term on cool stuff (meaning recent pop
or alternative rock -- "Dr. B, lemme get this straight: you want me to
listen to this guy, Hay-den??? Was that like classic? 'Cause I only listen
to alternative. Like the Beatles and that other 'classic' stuff is
bogus."). Of course, it's the whole package that matters --
comprehensivness of structure, details of style, projection of
expressiveness, ambiguities of musical argument, etc. One has to convince
students that the search for the elite, the unique -- the highly aesthetic
-- in art should never be confused with our yearnings for political
democracy (and its enmity toward elitism).
From these particular wind sonatas by Hindemith, pieces I know well, I
find that I hear few continuations or solutions to musical argument that I
don't anticipate. This bloats the pieces, makes the works more journalese
or more didactic, for me, than poetry. To explain why in light of the
"whole package" would take too long to explain -- and I bet we agree
anyway.
When I chose "stolid", I was thinking of rhythm (of phrasings in
particular, but also the smaller details) and melody...melodic 'grace'.
(About as good as I can do, I'm afraid.) Obviously, not all interesting
music must not be stolid. (I can think of two or three Bach chorale
preludes for which the term, stolid, is appropriate without doing
measurable harm to history.
Enough already! You'll excuse me while I attend to battening down my hatches!
cheers, bart in nj