Brahms and God: The trouble with Arthur Abell

[Parsifal77]

A few months ago, I happily plunged into Arthur Abell's "Talks With
the Great Composer's." Initially, the book seemed like a gold mine of
fascinating information about such composers as Brahms and Richard
Strauss. Abell claims to have recorded-- verbatim-- all these composers
had to say about their spiritual lives (a topic which Brahms rarely
discussed), the creative process, etc. In it an an account of a
conversation between Joseph Joachim and Darwin! Even Joachim and
Tennyson!

Later on, though, I stumbled upon a Brahms biography which mentioned the
book in a brief footnote. The author doubts the veracity of Abell's
conversations-- especially since the composers' spiritual beliefs jive so
much with his own.

Well, I was crushed. Abell seems so sincere. And the Brahms biographer
is much too brief in his discussion of the book. Is anyone familiar with
the book?
If anyone has some more information/reflections on the book , I'd love to
hear them..

[Frank Eggleston]

> jswa...@emerald.tufts.edu (Jan Swafford) writes:
> : A few months ago, I happily plunged into Arthur Abell's "Talks With

> : the Great Composer's." Initially, the book seemed like a gold mine of
> : fascinating information about such composers as Brahms and Richard
> : Strauss. Abell claims to have recorded-- verbatim-- all these composers
> : had to say about their spiritual lives (a topic which Brahms rarely
> : discussed), the creative process, etc. In it an an account of a
> : conversation between Joseph Joachim and Darwin! Even Joachim and
> : Tennyson!
>
> : Later on, though, I stumbled upon a Brahms biography which mentioned the
> : book in a brief footnote. The author doubts the veracity of Abell's
> : conversations-- especially since the composers' spiritual beliefs jive so
> : much with his own.
>

> I'm writing a book on Brahms so was also duly excited a few years ago
> when I first ran across the Abell. But one quickly gets suspicious, for
> all kinds of reasons. The common wisdom is that it's a fraud.
>
> Still, somebody ought to do some sleuthing about the whole thing. Abell
> did know Brahms and Joachim and the other composers apparently, and did
> write a shorter, vaguer account of a Brahms interview back in the
> 30s--without the spiritualistic stuff. The best guess is that he cooked
> up his later "interview" from a few things Brahms told him, more things
> Joachim told him, and added some plugs for his own beliefs.
>
> Anybody out there have some solid info?
>
> Jan Swafford
>
>>>>
Shades of Rosemary Brown (for the youngsters, she recorded music
that had been spiritually dictated to her by dead composers) !!!!

Frank Eggleston

[Jan Swafford]

[JDT]

eggl...@ncr.disa.mil (Frank Eggleston) wrote:

>Shades of Rosemary Brown (for the youngsters, she recorded music
>that had been spiritually dictated to her by dead composers) !!!!

>Frank Eggleston

Iam unfamiliar with Abell or for that matter with much on the subject
of spirituality. As a possible clue however, I have a dim
recollection that the violinist Jelly D'Aranyi (she is probably best
known for premiering Ravel's Tzigane) was related to Joachim ( I do
not know how) and into spirituality. She was active in the 20's. I
do not know her dates.

Jon Teske

[dande...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 20, 1996 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-5, Parsifal77 wrote:
> A few months ago, I happily plunged into Arthur Abell's "Talks With
> the Great Composer's." Initially, the book seemed like a gold mine of
> fascinating information about such composers as Brahms and Richard
> Strauss. Abell claims to have recorded-- verbatim-- all these composers
> had to say about their spiritual lives (a topic which Brahms rarely
> discussed), the creative process, etc. In it an an account of a
> conversation between Joseph Joachim and Darwin! Even Joachim and
> Tennyson!
>
> Later on, though, I stumbled upon a Brahms biography which mentioned the
> book in a brief footnote. The author doubts the veracity of Abell's
> conversations-- especially since the composers' spiritual beliefs jive so
> much with his own.
>

[David Eaton]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 9:13:53 PM UTC+9, dande...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 20, 1996 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-5, Parsifal77 wrote:
> > A few months ago, I happily plunged into Arthur Abell's "Talks With
> > the Great Composer's." Initially, the book seemed like a gold mine of
> > fascinating information about such composers as Brahms and Richard
> > Strauss. Abell claims to have recorded-- verbatim-- all these composers
> > had to say about their spiritual lives (a topic which Brahms rarely
> > discussed), the creative process, etc. In it an an account of a
> > conversation between Joseph Joachim and Darwin! Even Joachim and
> > Tennyson!

Swafford doesn't mention the conversations with Abell, however Daniel Beller-McKenna does in his book,
"Brahms and the German Spirit." According to Beller-McKenna Brahms was quite well versed in Biblical
scripture and his account seems to support Abell's reportage regarding Brahms' faith convictions.
As Beller-McKenna tells it, At the time of Robert Schumann’s death, Brahms recalled how Schumann
requested the Bible. “People just don’t understand,” Brahms would say, “that we North Germans crave
the Bible and do not go a day without it.” He would say that even in the dark of night in his study he knew
where his Bible lay.

[Becky Lehmann]

On Wednesday, August 21, 1996 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, Jan Swafford wrote:
> : A few months ago, I happily plunged into Arthur Abell's "Talks With
> : the Great Composer's." Initially, the book seemed like a gold mine of
> : fascinating information about such composers as Brahms and Richard
> : Strauss. Abell claims to have recorded-- verbatim-- all these composers
> : had to say about their spiritual lives (a topic which Brahms rarely
> : discussed), the creative process, etc. In it an an account of a
> : conversation between Joseph Joachim and Darwin! Even Joachim and
> : Tennyson!

> : Later on, though, I stumbled upon a Brahms biography which mentioned the

> : book in a brief footnote. The author doubts the veracity of Abell's
> : conversations-- especially since the composers' spiritual beliefs jive so
> : much with his own.

> I'm writing a book on Brahms so was also duly excited a few years ago
> when I first ran across the Abell. But one quickly gets suspicious, for
> all kinds of reasons. The common wisdom is that it's a fraud.
> Still, somebody ought to do some sleuthing about the whole thing. Abell
> did know Brahms and Joachim and the other composers apparently, and did
> write a shorter, vaguer account of a Brahms interview back in the
> 30s--without the spiritualistic stuff. The best guess is that he cooked
> up his later "interview" from a few things Brahms told him, more things
> Joachim told him, and added some plugs for his own beliefs.
> Anybody out there have some solid info?
> Jan Swafford

There's clearly something wrong with Abell's 'recollection' of conversing with Brahms "a year before Brahms died" about the composer's alleged encounter with ragtime, reprinted in Schauffler's The Unknown Brahms, pp.176-77. Brahms died in 1897. The "well known tune which goes to the words: If you refuse me/Honey, you lose me" is from "Hello, Ma Baby" by Joseph E. Howard and Ida Emerson, 1899. (The actual lyrics are "Honey, you'll lose me".) Incidentally, your biography of Brahms is great!