JS Bach's Lost Works
Monsieur Tabernac
Is there a general opinion as to what percentage of Bach's works have
been lost (i.e. how much of his entire output is his existing
catalogue generally thought to encompass)?
Thanks,
MT
Thomas J Wood
Monsieur Tabernac <mtab...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:O14QOJGIbRTp+A...@4ax.com...
Three of his five passions are lost; about 100 cantatas (2/5ths of the
total); most of his secular cantatas; and unknown amounts of concerti and
chamber music. Not pleasant to contemplate. Wilhelm Friedemann Bach is to
blame for many of the losses; he lost or sold off many of he scores left to
him. Supposedly after Bach's death St. Thomas' Church sold Bach scores and
parts as scrap paper. It's impossible to know how much is lost.
Tom Wood
D.G. Porter
>
> Monsieur Tabernac <mtab...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:O14QOJGIbRTp+A...@4ax.com..
> >
> > Is there a general opinion as to what percentage of Bach's works have
> > been lost (i.e. how much of his entire output is his existing
> > catalogue generally thought to encompass)?
>
> Three of his five passions are lost; about 100 cantatas (2/5ths of the
> total); most of his secular cantatas; and unknown amounts of concerti and
> chamber music. Not pleasant to contemplate. Wilhelm Friedemann Bach is to
> blame for many of the losses; he lost or sold off many of he scores left to
> him. Supposedly after Bach's death St. Thomas' Church sold Bach scores and
> parts as scrap paper. It's impossible to know how much is lost.
>
> Tom Wood
How many of the "lost" works are in the rediscovered CPE Bach
collection?
Roland van Gaalen
: Monsieur Tabernac <mtab...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
: news:O14QOJGIbRTp+A...@4ax.com...
:> Hi,
:>
:> Is there a general opinion as to what percentage of Bach's works have
:> been lost (i.e. how much of his entire output is his existing
:> catalogue generally thought to encompass)?
: Three of his five passions are lost; about 100 cantatas (2/5ths of the
: total); most of his secular cantatas; and unknown amounts of concerti and
: chamber music. Not pleasant to contemplate. Wilhelm Friedemann Bach is to
: blame for many of the losses; he lost or sold off many of he scores left to
: him. Supposedly after Bach's death St. Thomas' Church sold Bach scores and
: parts as scrap paper. It's impossible to know how much is lost.
Do you happen to know if there has been any news about the recent treasure
trove in Kiev?
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
Benko Pal
because these autograhps were lost during WWII, and their examination
may shed new lights on the chronology (or confirm present theories).
p
Simon Crouch
Monsieur Tabernac <mtab...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:O14QOJGIbRTp+A...@4ax.com...
> Hi,
>
> Is there a general opinion as to what percentage of Bach's works have
> been lost (i.e. how much of his entire output is his existing
> catalogue generally thought to encompass)?
>
> MT
General opinion? No. The problem is that there is little "hard" evidence and
so there are many speculations! Even the evidence is of dubious reliability.
Some considerations are:
(i) We have about 190 surviving sacred cantatas. Bach's obituary reports the
existence of five yearly cycles that should add up to about 300 cantatas.
However, we do not know whether the obituary was accurate. [Whether the
"Picander" cycle ever existed is argued about, for various other reasons].
(ii) Of the four part chorale settings that survive, there are many that do
not come from surviving cantatas. Are these the surviving bits of a whole
load of cantatas?
(iii) Relatively little chamber music survives (as chamber music - some was
re-cycled in the church cantatas). Since Bach must have produced a lot at
Coethen, a lot must be missing.
(iv) Take a look at the BWV. Appendix I is devoted to lost/fragmentary works
that we do know about from direct and indirect evidence.
(v) In the surviving church cantatas there's lots of music that is clearly
parodied from earlier sources that no longer exist by themselves. How much
"lost" work has survived this way is unclear.
(vi) Much of the surviving organ work survives as manuscript copies by
pupils and friends. How much wasn't copied? We don't really know. There are
reports of a "chorale collection" along the lines of the Orgelbuechlein but
much bigger, that is lost.
(vii) The unaccompanied works for violin and for cello still exist in sets
of six. What about the flute works? Was there a similar collection? What
about the oboe? It seems inconceivable that Bach, who wrote so much for the
instrument in the choral works, didn't compose a solo sonata/partita set.
(viii) &c. &c.....
Hope that this muddies the water,
Simon Crouch.
Thomas J. Wood
Roland van Gaalen wrote:
>
> Do you happen to know if there has been any news about the recent treasure
> trove in Kiev?
>
The material in Kiev was assembled by CPE Bach, and was given to the Berlin
Singakademie in the 1790s. Then it was taken by Russia in WWII. The editors of
the Bach Gesellschaft had access to that collection in the 1800s. Thus, there are
probably no or very few "new" works by J.S. Bach in that collection. However,
with the knowledge modern scholars have of watermarks and calligraphy, the scores
and parts in the Kiev collection will probably reveal new information about the
chronology of Bach's works.
My understanding is that the Kiev trove is more likely to contain "new" works by
CPE Bach and Telemann.
--
Tom Wood
Tripletz
>existence of five yearly cycles that should add up to about 300 cantatas.
>However, we do not know whether the obituary was accurate.
Another consideration is that Bach recycled some of his works, particularly
the cantatas.
One thought that I had reading this thread is that some very fecund
composers such as Teleman suffer historically because of their productivity.
In years past he was viewed with some disdain because the view was that he must
have churned out so much music that he had little regard for the quality.
however, if there were many works by J.S. Bach that have become lost, it raises
the spectre that they may have been relatively equal in terms of their
production, but teleman was better at disseminating his music and therefore
ensuring that copies would surive the into the present era.