Was Beethoven an African?
Ross Driedger
[snip]
I have heard this from many sources as well. My reaction is:
"Does it make a difference?" Some people to make a big issue of it.
Why do some people always make an issue of the fact that the
manager of the Toronto Blue Jays is an Afro-American? He is a
manager who just happens to be of a darker skin than me.
Race is just not an issue...
Ross Driedger
cs4g...@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca
(When I grow up I want to have a REAL net address!)
James Kahn
>Several months ago, I broached this issue on this group and was told
>that it had long ago been established to be false. Yesterday, in the LA
>Times (Calendar sxn, p F3), I found the following argument, which seems
>convincing.
>BEETHOVEN'S RACIAL TIES MISREPRESENTED AGAIN
>By Kwaku Person-Lynn
>In an age where history is seriously being rewritten, we are still inundated
>with false characterizations of significant historical figures. Today, we have
>a movie, "Immortal Beloved", that is a depiction of the life of Ludwig van
>Beethoven, considered the greatest European classical composer ever. Again,
>the world is being fed false information regarding the cultural character of
>this great man. Let's get straight to the point, Beethoven was a black man.
>To be more specific, his mother was a Moor, that group of Muslim Africans who
>conquered parts of Europe--they made Spain their capital--for some 800 years.
>Of course, readers will look at this and think I have really blown a tube in
>my head, but this is based on years of research. As I tell my students, "Do
>not believe anything I tell you unless you investigate and verify for
>yourself."
>Let's look at what some of Beethoven's contemporaries and biographers say
>about his appearance, and they are all white Europeans.
[quotes deleted]
>Of course, in the world of scholarship, there are those who take an opposite
>view. In the book "The Changing Image of Beethoven" by Alessandra Comini,
>an array of arguments are presented. Donald W. MacArdle, in a 1949 Musical
>Quarterly article, came to the conclusion that there were "no Spanish, no
>Belgian, no Dutch, no African" in Beethoven's genealogy. Dominque-Rene de
>Lerma, a great musical bibliologist, came to the same conclusion.
>Through personal research, I am convinced of Beethoven's "dark skin" and
>Moorish ancestry.
[remainder deleted]
Sorry, but you find this "convincing"? First, as best as I can tell,
the author's "personal research" consists of scanning a bunch of secondary
and tertiary sources for quotes about B.'s appearance. That's it. That
might be acceptable in high school. The opposing views are not elaborated on
at all. On what evidence are they based? What do we know about his parents,
and his mother in particular? What was her name? Her maiden name? And
where on Earth does the author come up specifically with Moorish ancestry
as opposed to some other background that would have given rise to his
alleged appearance?
I think, despite what others have posted, that the question of B.'s
ancestry is interesting. For example, it might shed some light on
his acceptability or lack thereof in certain social circles, and how
that might have shaped his political views and his personality. But
this sort of pseudo-scholarship and "personal research" is revolting.
It's the same sort of crap that's getting carried out by Leonard
Jeffries and his ilk.
--Jim
--
ka...@troi.cc.rochester.edu |
ka...@finance.wharton.upenn.edu |
joseph louis rizzo
John E. Harrington <j...@iris77.biosym.com> wrote:
>*****************************************************************************
>
>BEETHOVEN'S RACIAL TIES MISREPRESENTED AGAIN
>
>By Kwaku Person-Lynn
>
>In an age where history is seriously being rewritten, we are still inundated
>with false characterizations of significant historical figures. Today, we have
>a movie, "Immortal Beloved", that is a depiction of the life of Ludwig van
>Beethoven, considered the greatest European classical composer ever. Again,
>the world is being fed false information regarding the cultural character of
>this great man. Let's get straight to the point, Beethoven was a black man.
>To be more specific, his mother was a Moor, that group of Muslim Africans who
>conquered parts of Europe--they made Spain their capital--for some 800 years.
Last time I checked, the Moors are not "black" [in terms of Modern American
political definition]. The Moors were from North Africa- Morocco, Egypt,
Libya, Tunisia,... (my source is the Encyclopedia Britannica).
Now, all the features that the Biographers wrote about- typify _Sub-Sahara
African's_ (thick lips, wide nose). Second of all, they are all translations
of the original writers words. Language changes, are these descriptions
accurate? or possible interpretations to phrases that are untranslatable?
>
>
>Through personal research, I am convinced of Beethoven's "dark skin" and
>Moorish ancestry.
>
See above.
>What all this comes down to: We have all been tricked. It is no secret that
>scholars, writers, critics and Hollywood have changed history for their own
>biased purposes. But people of color now have an army of sophisticated
>scholars to combat false information that has been accepted as normal.
>
If this sentence does not throw doubt into your head, nothing will. Look at
the language:
"no secret that scholars, writers, critics, and Hollywood have chagned history
for their own biased purposes"
Immediately, he begins with a conspiracy theory. Writers and Hollywood are not
in the business of "the truth". They are in the business of _entertainment_.
If you take this guy seriously, we should come to the _logical_ conclusion that
Luke Skywalker could not have been white! It was an obvious attempt by writers
and hollywood to LIE to the American public!
There have been biased scholars. On the other hand, there have also been non-
biased scholars. Notice that I mentioned scholars- no mention of color. There
are honest white, and honest black scholars.
"But people of color now have an army of sophisticated scholars to combat false
information that has been accepted as normal."
An _army_ of scholars is hardly a comforting thought. Armies are political
forces. They have agendas and orders.
>
>It is hoped that the revealing of this argument will motivate others to
>critically look at all information flowing in our brains for authenticity.
>Hollywood is notorious for changing facts. I am not saying to hate
>Hollywood, but we do have to hold it accountable for disseminating
>false information, especially when it changes the course of history by which
>our children are influenced.
Once again, the attack on _Hollywood_, not academia.
>
>*****************************************************************************
>
>
>To my knowledge, the only images of Beethoven taken from life were a plaster
>mask of his face and a contour charcoal drawing, neither of which can give us
>definitive information on his skin color, though certainly they confirm the
>flat nose, broad lips and so on.
>
>I wonder if Moors, however, were indeed "black", in the sense that we
>in the 20th century think of black as opposed to merely "dark". Certainly
>the contemporary accts. cited above make convincing evidence, though there
>seems to be a few secondary sources fudged into the bargain.
>
>Whether or not Beethoven was black is ultimately unimportant, though it
>would be satisfying to know that a black man was enthroned at the pinnacle
>of what was previously thought to be "white" culture.
>
And right there you have hit the motivation behind the research. The "scholars
of color" are trying to "steal" a Western icon away from the "white people" and
put him in the realm of "the ethnic." First, who gives a damn whether or not
Beethoven was black? Does that change the person? his music? his ideas? No.
Beethoven was and is European. His ideas are European, his music was European,
his influence was European.
But, these "scholars" are trying to convince you that it IS important whether
or not Beethoven was black. It makes Beethoven _theirs_. Mind you, Beethoven
does not become an icon of North Africa, but of sub-sahara Africa (even though
his "ethnicity" was determined by this "scholar" as being from N.Africa).
This "research" is worthless. I know this is a powerful term to use, but
there is no other way of putting it (except as questionable- which has the
same connotations). There was definite political motive behind the
_formulation_ of the hypothesis. He looks at the texts which talk about
Beethoven as being "black". He forms the hypothesis that the was, and cites
the same examples as proof of his hypothesis. This in statistics is called
a bias. It is bad research.
If one wants to prove that Beethoven was "black", then research his ancestry.
Show that one of his ancestors was from there. Otherwise, the motivations are
political, the research questionable, and the conclusions unusable.
>
>-J
>--
>*******************************************************************************
>* DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is *
>* personal opinion, not an official statement of Biosym Technologies, Inc. *
>*******************************************************************************
--
Joseph L Rizzo
Brain> Are you pondering what I am, Pinky?
Pinky> I think so Brain, but where are we going to get rubber pants in our
size?
Mario Taboada
being tested for DNA), the fact remains that Beethoven did not consider himself
an African but a German. What is the possible relevance of the discovery that
he was part black? Besides, as I recall, there are quite a few dark people in
Germany whose families have lived there for very many generations, so I suppose
each of these could be tested for blackness. The history of Europe being what
is is, it seems impossible to sort out who's got African blood and who
does not.
There are a lot of blacks whose achievements need to be better known;
trying to make Beethoven a black seems rather far-fetched. Just my
opinion.
Regards,
--
Mario Taboada
* Department of Mathematics * University of Southern California * Los Angeles
e-mail: tab...@mtha.usc.edu
Jean Ohai
> And right there you have hit the motivation behind the research. The >"scholars of color" are trying to "steal" a Western icon away from the "white
> people" and put him in the realm of "the ethnic." ...
>
> But, these "scholars" are trying to convince you that it IS important whether
> or not Beethoven was black. It makes Beethoven _theirs_.
Um . . . Does this mean we can look forward to having those who carry
boomboxes sharing the "Emperor" Concerto or the "Pastoral" Symphony with
us?
[sarcasm mode off]
It *is* evidence that the "scholars of color" do want to participate in
the construction of history, however political their motivation. Speak to
people in the third world and see how idealized their notion of their
pre-contact culture is. If you ever visit the Honolulu Academy of Art, you
will learn that Alice Cooke who provided the initial funds was motivated by
what I think is a wholly laudable desire to have immigrant children see the
high culture of their own ethnic groups treated on a par with European
arts. Adults know that they can appropriate for themselves the art they
love, but children don't. Maybe that says something too.
>
> If one wants to prove that Beethoven was "black", then research his ancestry.
> Show that one of his ancestors was from there. Otherwise, the motivations are
> political, the research questionable, and the conclusions unusable.
>
A reference to a San Francisco Chronicle article was recently posted on
rec.art.books to the effect that there is persuasive evidence that
Elizabeth Barrett Browning was of mixed ancestry. See
http:/sfgate.com/new/schron/old/feb-13-95/mn25590.html
[sarcasm mode back on]
"Sonnets from the Portuguese" instead of *replace with your unfavorite rap
group*?
--
Jean Ohai
jean...@novell.com
Christopher Spring
add seem absurd at best-- are true, his music would have not been
affected. Beethoven grew up in a decidedly European culture and his
music verifies this. His orchestration grows logically out of Haydn's
music (he studied with Haydn, though he claimed not to have learned
anything from him), and his counterpoint is an obvious mix of Haydn's
more obvious and Mozart's more subtle counterpoint. Unless one is
profoundly rascist and wishes to say that his skin color alone would have
affected his music, this is really a non-issue. Besides, it is almost
impossibly unlikely that a composer of African descent would have gained
anywhere near the success of Beethoven in early 19th century Vienna.
Alain DAGHER
: I think it would be wise to avoid classifying the world in a black and
: white scheme. There *are* more races than two.
Not "more" but fewer. In reality the human species has only one race:
the human race.
This is not a political argument incidentally.
--
Best wishes,
Alain Dagher "De la musique avant toute chose"
Montreal Neurological Institute
E-Mail: al...@pet.mni.mcgill.ca -Paul Verlaine
Steven Sullivan
: Someone commented:
: [sarcasm mode off]
: [sarcasm mode back on]
Sarcasm is not your forte. Are you aware that rap has a rather large
fan base of white, middle-class kids? And that classical music's appeal
also cuts across color lines?
Clifford Ando
that she was widowed prior to marrying Beethoven's father. But the
author of the essay which was quoted at the opening of this strand
offered no proof one way or the other about her ancestry.
What he did offer, was a body of contemporary descriptions or,
rather, a series of very brief contemporary quotations. I know very
little about 18th century German, but in 18th century England, so far as
I know, "black" was not used to refer to Black people: it meant merely
someone who possess black hair and dark eyes and, if used to reflect on
someone's skin, merely that he was tan in an age when it was not
fashionable to be such. No more stigma was attached to it--beyond that
which obviously might accrue to someone who was outside long enough to
become tan--than was attached a person then or today called a "brunette."
A Black person in England at that time might have been called a
Negro or a "native."
In any event, I am not sure that I would listen to Beethoven's
music any differently if his mother were a Moor--which wouldn't really
imply "Black" in the sense tha the author of the essay believed anyhow.
As a historian I would applaud confirmation of the point in either
direction as serving the interests of truth, but I worry about those who
would use the rewriting of history to prop up their self-esteem. The
author of the essay seems to imply that people will walk down the street
and look different at every Black--and therefore at every white--because
one "great" individual has been moved from one team to the other. True
"facts" in history are awfully elusive: if Beethoven's mother does turn
out to be of Spanish descent, but was born of "white" Spaniards rather
than of "African" Moors, that would be no more of a "victory" or "defeat"
for either "side" than would this supposed discovery.
Deryk Barker
: Several months ago, I broached this issue on this group and was told
: that it had long ago been established to be false. Yesterday, in the LA
: Times (Calendar sxn, p F3), I found the following argument, which seems
: convincing.
: Comments would be appreciated.
: *****************************************************************************
: BEETHOVEN'S RACIAL TIES MISREPRESENTED AGAIN
: By Kwaku Person-Lynn
: In an age where history is seriously being rewritten, we are still inundated
: with false characterizations of significant historical figures. Today, we have
: a movie, "Immortal Beloved", that is a depiction of the life of Ludwig van
: Beethoven, considered the greatest European classical composer ever. Again,
: the world is being fed false information regarding the cultural character of
: this great man. Let's get straight to the point, Beethoven was a black man.
: To be more specific, his mother was a Moor, that group of Muslim Africans who
: conquered parts of Europe--they made Spain their capital--for some
: 800 years.
This has been discussed recently on the CLASSM-L mailing list. I shall
state my position as succinctly as I can: I think the author of this
article is expressing racist views.
Beethoven was black because his mother was black. That's an argument
which would have gone down well in Nazi Germany or pre-1990s South
Africa.
Leaving aside the relevance of what colour he actually was, why should
we not equally validly argue that if his father was white, then
Beethoven was white?
I detect an intellectually profoundly dishonest logic in this:
we all know that nothing good came from the culture of dead
white European males;
Beethoven's music is undeniably good;
Beethoven is also, inarguably, dead, European and male;
therefore, Beethoven cannot have been white.
--
Deryk.
===========================================================================
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Across the pale parabola of Joy |
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada | |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | Ralston McTodd |
|phone: +1 604 370 4452 | (Songs of Squalor). |
===========================================================================
Tom Wood
> Several months ago, I broached this issue on this group and was told
> that it had long ago been established to be false. Yesterday, in the LA
> Times (Calendar sxn, p F3), I found the following argument, which seems
> convincing.
> Comments would be appreciated.
> *****************************************************************************
> BEETHOVEN'S RACIAL TIES MISREPRESENTED AGAIN
> By Kwaku Person-Lynn
> In an age where history is seriously being rewritten, we are still inundated
> with false characterizations of significant historical figures. Today, we have
> a movie, "Immortal Beloved", that is a depiction of the life of Ludwig van
> Beethoven, considered the greatest European classical composer ever. Again,
> the world is being fed false information regarding the cultural character of
> this great man. Let's get straight to the point, Beethoven was a black man.
> To be more specific, his mother was a Moor, that group of Muslim Africans who
> conquered parts of Europe--they made Spain their capital--for some 800 years.
> Of course, readers will look at this and think I have really blown a tube in
> my head, but this is based on years of research. As I tell my students, "Do
> not believe anything I tell you unless you investigate and verify for
> yourself."
This is a very racist article. It asserts that Beethoven was black, and that
his race is a very important consideration. Despite the author's claim to
"years of research," the author shows no evidence of having any factual
knowledge of Beethoven's mother.
Ironically, the title of the article decribes its content precisely.
--
|| tom wood
|| ssu
|| springfield, il usa
|| wo...@sangamon.edu
gs...@access.digex.net
too?
Jeff Harrington
: In article <zhengy.18...@caedm.et.byu.edu>, zhe...@caedm.et.byu.edu (Yu Zheng) writes:
: >
: > By the way, I think Beethoven has a Dutch ancestory -- listen to his Egmont
: > Overture, one of my favorites.
: By this logic, he's also Roman (Coriolan), Spanish (Fidelio), Greek (Ruins
: of Athens), Polish (the Op.89 Polonaise) and British
: (variations on "God save the King"). Did I miss any?
The coolest thing about this thread - which seems to have a life of its
own, like Ludwig, is the idea of being somebody who every race (and
sexual orientaion) on the planet would like to call its own...
I can think of only one other historical figure with that much myth-making
power... (if you don't count the historical Dionysus and stories of him
being oriental, etc.) - Christ.
Shows you how we humans value musical ecstacy!
Cheers,
Jeff Harrington
idea...@dorsai.dorsai.org
--
(*) IdEAL ORDER WWW HOME PAGE: (*)
(*) NEW WWW SITE ->>>> http://www.dorsai.org/~idealord/ (*)
(*) Elsie Russell's Pics! Jeff Harrington's Music ->>>> Art + The Bizarre (*)
(*) IdEAL ORDER Psychic TV - All Days But Thursdays(ABC) on CBS Since 1984 (*)
(*) BlueStrider MIDI: ftp://ftp.cs.ruu.nl/pub/MIDI/SONGS/MISC/BlueStri.mid (*)
Kyle Elisabeth Overstreet
persuasive. However, as far as the objections to the suggestion that ask
"what does it matter?", the answer is that, to listeners of music, it
matters scarcely a whit. To an inner-city black youth looking for role
models for genius and success, it matters a great deal, just as the
existence of Bix Bierdecke can inspire white jazz musicians.
EzioMF
>
> Beethoven was born on December 17, 1770 in Bonn
The date is not sure: somebody speaks about 15 or 16. On Dec 17 he was
surely baptized.
ezio
--
Ezio M. Ferdeghini, PhD
CNR Clinical Physiology Institute
Pisa
Italy
Gabriel M. Kuper
> in which the Lybian leader Col. Muammar Kadafi pronounced that the English
> playwright William Shakespear was actually Arabic, whose true name was Sheik
> Spear.
Or Rosenberg suspending a Brahms festival because Brahms (an abbreviation
of aBRAHMSson) was Jewish! He was quickly overruled by other Nazis though.
Gabriel Kuper
David Schildkret
Month concerts someone tried to put some Beethoven, or better, gave an
all-Beethoven concert.
joseph louis rizzo
Jean Ohai <oh...@Sandy.USG.novell.com> wrote:
>
> It *is* evidence that the "scholars of color" do want to participate in
>the construction of history, however political their motivation. Speak to
>people in the third world and see how idealized their notion of their
>pre-contact culture is. If you ever visit the Honolulu Academy of Art, you
>will learn that Alice Cooke who provided the initial funds was motivated by
>what I think is a wholly laudable desire to have immigrant children see the
>high culture of their own ethnic groups treated on a par with European
>arts. Adults know that they can appropriate for themselves the art they
>love, but children don't. Maybe that says something too.
>
I whole heartedly agree with what they are doing. It would be a shame to
lose their history. On the other hand, we have these "scholars of color"
trying to "prove" that Beethoven was "black"- whatever that means. As I
said earlier: Beethoven was European- no matter his ancestry. Even if
he was "black", he is not a representative of "black" or "African"
idealogy.
>
>--
>Jean Ohai
>jean...@novell.com
Yu Zheng
>>Subject: Was Beethoven an African?
>>Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 19:41:28 GMT
>>Several months ago, I broached this issue on this group and was told
>>that it had long ago been established to be false. Yesterday, in the LA
>>Times (Calendar sxn, p F3), I found the following argument, which seems
>>convincing.
You know, such arguments just remind me of one incident about ten years ago
in which the Lybian leader Col. Muammar Kadafi pronounced that the English
playwright William Shakespear was actually Arabic, whose true name was Sheik
Spear. Maybe calling Beethoven an African is "politically correct" --
whatever that means -- but we do have to be HONEST about something when we
make an argument about it.
Dave
Ed Jabbour
In a previous posting, Henry Pleas (h...@nwu.edu) writes:
[snip]
> I cannot speak to whether this has been the case in either the arguments
> that Beethoven was Black or gay. I do know that the history traditionally
> presented in this culture has been stingy in the recognition of Black and
> gay people. Is there any wonder that these people would want to shout
> from the highest mountain that the most important composer of western
> music had skin that was brown like theirs; or like themselves lived in a
> closet of shame because of who he chose to love? It seems quite
> reasonable to me; and rather callous to suggest that to some this
> possibility shouldn't be an issue.
As far as the issue of recognition is concerned, you may be right.
My personal background is Lebanese and Croat: does that mean that I would
be thrilled to find out that Beethoven was really ethnically like me?
Of course not; I wouldn't run to any mountain top or anywhere else for
that matter. As another poster has noted, he was German in social
and intellectual reality. Just as a person born here is an American.
I'm an American because I grew up here being inculcated with these cultural,
political, etc., beliefs and ideas.
[snip]
> should adjust our view of the beast like Moor, Othello. I assume that
> most of you think that he was of black?
>
> For those of you who are wondering, yes, I am black. Do I like european
> descended, heterosexual males? Yes, some of my best friends fit that
> description, including one very special one; but I guess he doesn't count
> cause he's not heterosexual.
And certainly these comments will only weaken your arguement. Why
attack an entire group of readers and posters as gay-bashing, Klan-
loving, racist-homophobes if you actually have some scholarship or
thoughtful ideas to contribute?
I always thought that trolling was confined to one or two line messages,
and here I am replying. Uggh! But this thread is very strange and
has really bothered me from the beginning. Oh well.
Grimly,
Aaron Jabbour
as...@freenet.carleton.com
--
"A man can surely do what he wills to do,
but he cannot determine what he wills."
--Schopenhauer
Fred Goldrich
Ed Jabbour <as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>In a previous posting, Henry Pleas (h...@nwu.edu) writes:
>
>> For those of you who are wondering, yes, I am black. Do I like european
>> descended, heterosexual males? Yes, some of my best friends fit that
>> description, including one very special one; but I guess he doesn't count
>> cause he's not heterosexual.
>
>And certainly these comments will only weaken your arguement. Why
>attack an entire group of readers and posters as gay-bashing, Klan-
>loving, racist-homophobes if you actually have some scholarship or
>thoughtful ideas to contribute?
And I would say the same to you: These comments will only
weaken your argument. Whether or not you agree with hp, his comments
were expressed in a moderate and thoughtful way, not at all as the
"attack" that you describe. Your reference to the Klan, for example,
is clearly an overreaction on your part, which just gives more
credence to hp's comments about 'protesting too much.'
No, he has not presented any scholarship, nor did he claim
to; and yes, it is on scholarly grounds that the issue will ultimately
be determined. But your overly harsh reaction does no credit to your
side of the argument.
-- Fred Goldrich
--
Fred Goldrich
gold...@panix.com
James Langdell
"A History of White People in America" where in a listing
of accomplishments by white people he said something like,
"The great composer Beethoven was at least partly white."
--James Langdell jam...@eng.sun.com
Sun Microsystems Menlo Park, Calif.
joseph louis rizzo
Henry Pleas <h...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>In article
><Pine.SUN.3.91.950216...@suntest.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
>Clifford Ando <ca...@umich.edu> wrote:
>
>
>I'm not sure how many African-American people have contributed to this at
>present 23 piece thread. I find it fascinating how many people's
>responses reveal a totally self-centered view of the world. Most of the
>responses want to know what difference it makes. Well, to most of you
>probably none at all. That's because this culture has made sure that
>european descended, heterosexual, males are validated through our
>attention to historical figures that possess these same attributes.
>Clearly, this validation has been so important in this culture that in
>some cases, evidence that would indicate a figure not to belong in the the
>above categories has caused such evidence to be hidden, reinterpreted or
>falsified.
Thank you for your interpretation, but I must reject your assessment of me.
Personally, I have friends of every "color" and "persuasion". Do I see
my friends as gay, black, Chinese? No. Do I have to prove my white male
supremacy around them? No. Do they need to "validate" their right to
existance? Hell no.
Now, the question I ask you- Is there evidence that Beethoven was "black"?
From reading the post, I would assert a most definitive no. Furthermore,
I question the motivation behind the writers investigation.
>I cannot speak to whether this has been the case in either the arguments
>that Beethoven was Black or gay. I do know that the history traditionally
>presented in this culture has been stingy in the recognition of Black and
>gay people. Is there any wonder that these people would want to shout
>from the highest mountain that the most important composer of western
>music had skin that was brown like theirs; or like themselves lived in a
>closet of shame because of who he chose to love? It seems quite
>reasonable to me; and rather callous to suggest that to some this
>possibility shouldn't be an issue.
The reason why I ask whether or not it is an issue is because it the
assumption that it does is racist. Beethoven was European. It is clear
in his music, his writing, and his outlook. These are aspects that make
Beethoven Beethoven. Now, if I shade his skin color darker- does that
no longer make him European?
>Some of you might also think about how really indifferent you are to the
>race issue. Is the quote 'Methinks he protests too much'? For people who
>don't care whether the man was of African descent or not, you sure do
>expend a lot of energy expressing your opinion on whether a Moor was an
>African or Spaniard or whether 'Black' at that time meant black faced or
>just dark featured. Could it be that this is only an issue when it
>surrounds our placing a new face on a musical genius like Beethoven. I
>think it is telling that I have never seen a 23 piece thread on whether we
>should adjust our view of the beast like Moor, Othello. I assume that
>most of you think that he was of black?
1] The placement of Beethoven as "black" is a political motivated action.
Now, do the Arab cultures think of themselves as "black"? Definitely not.
The countries of Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, et al. do not think highly of the
sub-Saharan Africans. Why should I accept this "scholars" assessment that
Beethoven was black when the Moors and their descendents do not think of
themselves in such a regard?
2] I do not think that Othello was such a beast. In fact, that is why
I find the book to be a _TRAGEDY_. The beast was Iago. Furthermore, I
see him as exactly what he is - a moor. Not black, not white, but moorish.
>For those of you who are wondering, yes, I am black. Do I like european
>descended, heterosexual males? Yes, some of my best friends fit that
>description, including one very special one; but I guess he doesn't count
>cause he's not heterosexual.
Why does he not count? Be proud of the people that you know- they're your
friends. Why should you even suggest that your gay friend does not "count"?
That assertion perpetuates the problem. You are highlighting the fact that
he is _different_. If we keep accentuating our differences, are we ever going
to become an equality based society.
joseph louis rizzo
Mario Taboada <tab...@mtha.usc.edu> wrote:
>It seems that a musical question is getting contaminated by an issue which
>is totally unrelated; Beethoven is considered a great composer not because
>he was German, or because he was white (or black, if it turns out that he
>was), but because his music has been found to be exceptionally strong by many
>generations of musicians and music lovers who kept their ears open.
True enough.
>The reasons for his greatness are purely musical ones - in fact, the music
>is much more important than the person (it is embarrassing to have to point
>this out, but in contemporary America such things can no longer be taken
>for granted). And if we look at the music, the race of the composer is
>completely irrelevant, as irrelevant as his nationality, his color of
>hair, and his drinking habits.
>
>I am deeply troubled by notions that have gained some currency, perhaps
>with a little bit of help from academics, that Shakespeare's greatness,
>for example, is simply an artifact of a dominant cultural group (of
>professors?).
No one's greatness is determined by the "dominant cultural group". On
the other hand, when dealing with historical objects, what gets saved is
not necessarily based upon the greatness of the work. It depends more on
someonehaving the text/document and putting it in a safe place until it has
been discovered. (The recent Schumann symphony comes to mind.)
>I am equally troubled by this search for "heroes" or "role models";
>for, how can Beethoven be a role model for anyone else but himself?
>Besides, he was just a composer, not a political leader or a great thinker
>(and in the former case, his actions would be the model, not the person,
>while in the latter, his thoughts would be the model).
I don't know if one can be a "role-model" for oneself. On the other hand,
why can't Beethoven be a role model for inner-city black men. If he is a
great role model if his skin was black, why cannot he be a great role model
with his skin white? The greatness of the music is what makes him a role
model- something that spans race and nationality.
>This emphasis on "personality" and "star power" is a widespread disease
>and while it is not exactly new, it has reached its greatest heights in
>the America of the media - I find it especially grating because it appears
>to be unrelated to artistic value; at the same time, it appears to have
>a lot to do with the possibilities of making money off the "star", a
>process in which the "star" usually participates with enthusiasm even if
>he/she does not get anything like the full purse.
American Mass Culture, can't live with it, pass the Mahler. :)
>I seem to have drifted off the topic; I had better continue later.
>
>Regards,
>--
>Mario Taboada
>
>* Department of Mathematics * University of Southern California * Los Angeles
>e-mail: tab...@mtha.usc.edu
Alain DAGHER
: This emphasis on "personality" and "star power" is a widespread disease
: and while it is not exactly new, it has reached its greatest heights in
: the America of the media -
The whole concept of the artist as "star", rather than as humble
craftsman, is a typically modern-European one, and, if you think about
it, first appeared with a guy by the name of...
.. Ludwig Van Beethoven.
Kyle Elisabeth Overstreet
: It seems that a musical question is getting contaminated by an issue which
: is totally unrelated; Beethoven is considered a great composer not because
: he was German, or because he was white (or black, if it turns out that he
: was), but because his music has been found to be exceptionally strong by many
: generations of musicians and music lovers who kept their ears open.
I wish this were so. Beethoven was plainly a genius, his work is sublime;
but his popular reception as a genius owes more to lazy repetition of the
claim than any broad understanding of his music.
It must have been a different matter in his day to wait for days and
weeks to again hear a quality performance of a piece. Now, we have
technologies of reproduction that let us repeat brilliance until we
become bored of it, very quickly. The affiliation between a composition
and its use in advertising can contaminate (it does for me, at least) the
appreciation of a piece (the Vivaldi / luxury coupe link is a painful one
now). Those who overpraise the most obvious figures in music are those, I
sometimes suspect, who've listened to them the least.
Kyle Elisabeth Overstreet
: In article <keoD44...@netcom.com> k...@netcom.com (Kyle Elisabeth Overstreet) writes:
: >From: k...@netcom.com (Kyle Elisabeth Overstreet)
: >Subject: Re: Was Beethoven an African?
: >Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 23:32:10 GMT
: >While an interesting speculation, I don't see enought evidence to be
: Does anybody in this news group seriously think that fabrication of historical
: facts can serve the purpose of providing inner-city black youth with a role
: model? What if that kid later find out that the "black Beethoven" was
You miss the point entirely. I am explaining why many of us wish it were
true, not claiming that it is or that it should be presumed to be. You
are protesting way, way overmuch.
: actually a German without any African blood? No matter how noble his
: motivation is, one does have to be H-O-N-E-S-T when talking about historical
: fact. Otherwise, the "army of colored scholars" (a pretty funny term in my
: opinion) are just the same as those "archeologists" of the Third Reich who,
: you know, through "years of research", tried to prove that the "Aryans"
: actually had a civilization as ancient as the Greeks.
The comparison is insulting. Would you like me to make the same claims of
the "army of Han scholars" trying to demonstrate the historical
precedents to the occupation of Tibet are analogous to Nazi scientists?
That Jewish scholars who claim to have found Jewish ancestors in Hitler's
past are also guilty of covert Nazism? Your analogy was vile and
completely uncalled-for.
: As for this jester Mr. Kwaku Person-Lynn, there is only one word that comes to
: my mind -- Demagogue.
Your over-reaction is infinitely more offensive than any error Mr
Person-Lynn may have made.
joseph louis rizzo
Robert Fink <es...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu> wrote:
>In <3i2mlp$5...@panix.com> gold...@panix.com (Fred Goldrich) writes:
>
>>In article <D44ts...@freenet.carleton.ca>,
>>Ed Jabbour <as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>>
>fascinating and worthy--even though the original screed hardly qualifies as
>scholarship...
>
>1. I am sympathetic to Mr. Pleas's point of view, and find his way of
>expressing his alienation from the list population quite moderate. I myself
>remember all too well breaking many lances over Susan McClary's Beethoven
>readings last summer, when I was *painfully* aware of our virtual world's
>overwhelmingly white, hetero, male population. (That's me, too, as it
>happens...)
>
>2. It might be helpful to introduce a concept here that is very useful in
>culture theory. It seems that, as they evaluate the "Beethoven was Black"
>argument, many recognize and react against what I would call its
>"essentialism": the idea that blackness is a biological quality, some
>people *essentially* have it, and that it *automatically* determines not
>only character traits but political identity. They all (quite rightly)
>counterpose the "constructionist" position: that Beethoven's identity, his
>character, have little to do with his genetic makeup, and everything to do
>with the social world he inhabits (he is a "European"...).
>
>3. I myself tend to think that Beethoven's genius (in the broad sense) was
>as much constructed as essential; and the part that was constructed is, to
>me, the more interesting part, since it has to do with things that we share,
>like concepts of family, state, world, etc.
>
>BUT...
>
>Can anyone really blame a black man who wants to counterpose an essentially
>black genius to the virulent essentialist stereotyping of blacks as inferior
>that has plagued white discourse for centuries? Need I mention _The Bell
>Curve_ in this context...? One can see that the argument is not
Yes, one could. The language has not changed. In fact, it asserts and
perpetuates the essentialist ideal- which I reject.
You do not need to mention _The Bell Curve_. I do not know much about it,
but I do know that my statistic teacher, Mr. Stigler, did not seem to think
very highly of the book. Not to mention, we had a panel talk on the book
and everyone whole heartedly rejected every idea in it.
_The Bell Curve_ and the Beethoven was African article are two sides of the
same coin.
>"White males are evil. Beethoven is good. THUS Beethoven could not have
>been white."
>
>it is
>
>"Beethoven was (at least possibly) genetically black. Beethoven was
>demonstrably superior. THUS blacks cannot be held to be genetically
>inferior."
"genetically black"? That is a very dangerous concept, and something
that cannot be proven scientifically. One of the big problems of using
dna in court is this idea of "genetically black (fill in ethnic group
of your choice)."
>This syllogism can be attacked, but it is not itself "racist," in the way
>some have been arguing.
Yes it is racist- it argues that there these constructed categories exist and
are tangible realities.
> And if you think the sensitivity level of black
>people is too high on this subject, go tell those folks sitting-in on the
>center court at Rutgers.
>
>robert fink
>asst'prof, musicology
>Eastman School
Ed Jabbour
> On Sat, 18 Feb 1995, James C Liu wrote:
>
>> It is often difficult, as Mario has pointed out, for people to
>> dissociate a person's work from their character or personality or
>> anything else. Another case in point is the extended discussion on
>> the morality or immorality of listening to music written by an anti-Semite
>> such as Wagner, or performed by a Nazi-supported artist such as
>> Furtwaengler. Take it from this perspective, though, and the political
>> aspects seem to get much harder to dissociate from the music itself.
>>
This is a very difficult issue for me as well. In my experience it
has been not as much an intellectual decision to be concerned or not with
these types of character issues. It seems often that I cannot escape
at least some of the feelings, or at least questioning my feelings about
a particular artist. And much of this stems from the fact that I engage
with music and its performance in a personal way. I somehow try to
identify with the artist and what is happening with them that makes them
different, that makes them stand out (other than the obvious physical gifts).
Or, rather, I am constantly *attempting* to do this.
But my interest in Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, for example has been always
been tied to the "things I've heard about her." They are hard to
dissociate from the (musical) experience as a whole, for me at least.
And on top of all of this is the fact that it is very difficult to obtain
any reliable information on so many of these people's activites. So I never
know if what I *think I know* is correct. Although I do know it is
grossly incomplete. And Wagner is...well I won't even start. (this is already
rambling enough!)
To many people, if they found out that Mozart had come from Mars,
it wouldn't make an iota of difference, because to them, "it's the music
stupid!" But, for some reason, to me it is integral to the experience.
Maybe it's because I'm not a musician, and am always intrigued by the
people who can do things that seem beyond me. Anyway, sorry to ramble,
but the subject interests me greatly and I'm somewhat confounded by it
(obviously!). Thank you for your patience.
Aaron E. Jabbour
as...@freenet.carleton.ca
David Pickering
Nazis (was .. by strasser michael c@uxa.c
>
> > It is often difficult, as Mario has pointed out, for people to
> > dissociate a person's work from their character or personality or
> > anything else. Another case in point is the extended discussion on
> > the morality or immorality of listening to music written by an anti-Semite
> > such as Wagner, or performed by a Nazi-supported artist such as
> > Furtwaengler. Take it from this perspective, though, and the political
> > aspects seem to get much harder to dissociate from the music itself.
> >
>
> most recent scholarship about Furtwangler largely absolved him of any
> real guilt vis. a vis. the Nazis? It seems to me that I have read about
> his efforts on behalf of Jewish members of his orchestra, etc.
To me, it's sad and ironic that the two artists who got tarred the
heaviest with the nazi tag, Wilhelm Furtwangler and Kirsten Flagstad,
were not members of the party at all and strove to keep their art
apolitical. At the same time there were other artists such as Herbert
von Karajan, Karl Bohm, Fritz Busch, Hans Knappertsbusch, Clemens Krauss
and others, who were members of the party, some of whom used the nazis
to advance their careers (von Karajan in particular benefitted from
being Goebbel's fair haired boy), and yet managed to more or less avoid
being stigmatized with the nazi label after the war.
Dave
dp...@andrew.cmu.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The future will be better tomorrow.
-- Vice President Dan Quayle
joseph louis rizzo
>Mario Taboada (tab...@mtha.usc.edu) wrote:
>
>: This emphasis on "personality" and "star power" is a widespread disease
>: and while it is not exactly new, it has reached its greatest heights in
>: the America of the media -
>
>The whole concept of the artist as "star", rather than as humble
>craftsman, is a typically modern-European one, and, if you think about
>it, first appeared with a guy by the name of...
>
>.. Ludwig Van Beethoven.
>
>
Really? I always thought that Pagannini and Liszt fit the mode much
better than Beethoven.
>
>--
>Best wishes,
>
>Alain Dagher "De la musique avant toute chose"
>Montreal Neurological Institute
>E-Mail: al...@pet.mni.mcgill.ca -Paul Verlaine
>
Henry Pleas
> at the beginning of your own, I presume that you were responding to me.
> If so, read more carefully. I made a rather different point altogether,
> but I won't iterate the content of the posting here.
>
Actually I was responding to the thread, in general, although I was
inspired by certain phrases in your post. I'm sorry, if I misread your
meaning, but my impression was that you were saying to everyone (that
includes me) that it is of no consequence what color Beethoven's skin
was. You seemed to be asking why anyone would be the least bit interested
in this question. In my response I was trying to help you understand that
the identification that we (humans) make with people of like heritage is a
empowering, motivating and a source of pride. Many German people call
Beethoven one of their own; and rightly so, even though Beethoven does
belong to the human race, we don't begrudge these folks feeling pride in
the fact that Beethoven was of the same heritage. To say that this
question doesn't matter is wrong. It may not matter to some. It may very
well matter to me and others of like heritage.
> > For those of you who are wondering, yes, I am black. Do I like european
> > descended, heterosexual males? Yes, some of my best friends fit that
> > description, including one very special one; but I guess he doesn't count
> > cause he's not heterosexual.
>
> Why bother to tell the newsgroup this? You have just suggested that
> whites in the past--and whites today?--are going to deny the "truth"
> because of their color? Why shouldn't someone accuse you of doing the
> same?
>
As to why I revealed my race; because I wanted people to understand that
there are different perspectives. Some of these are driven by our
heritage. You are right I do believe that SOME whites are going to deny
the "truth". I'm not assuming that you are among them.
> Actually, I'm very sorry that you felt the need to say it at all.
Why should you be sorry for me being proud enough to state who I am and
the nature of my heritage? It is information that I thought would add to
some people's perspective on this issue. I can understand your not
needing the information, but why would it make you sorry? FYI. I'm not
sorry at all.
> Clifford Ando (like Beethoven, half-descended from white, European stock)
Alain DAGHER
: To me, it's sad and ironic that the two artists who got tarred the
: heaviest with the nazi tag, Wilhelm Furtwangler and Kirsten Flagstad,
: were not members of the party at all and strove to keep their art
: apolitical. At the same time there were other artists such as Herbert
: von Karajan, Karl Bohm, Fritz Busch, Hans Knappertsbusch, Clemens Krauss
: and others, who were members of the party, some of whom used the nazis
: to advance their careers (von Karajan in particular benefitted from
: being Goebbel's fair haired boy), and yet managed to more or less avoid
: being stigmatized with the nazi label after the war.
Karajan WAS stigmatized after the war. He was banned from conducting
live concerts for a longer period than any other conductor, according
to The Maestro Myth. This may have been a blessing in disguise since
apparently the ban did not apply to recordings.
Nothing was apolitical in Nazi Germany.
Henry Pleas
>
> Thank you for your interpretation, but I must reject your assessment of me.
I wasn't assessing you. I don't know you.
> Personally, I have friends of every "color" and "persuasion". Do I see
> my friends as gay, black, Chinese?
My point is that to really know people and appreciate them you must
understand their stories and where they come from. Why would you not see
someone as gay, black or Chinese. These are important qualities that make
them who they are. I appreciate the fact that you do not discriminate
against them based on these aspects of themselves.
> The reason why I ask whether or not it is an issue is because it the
> assumption that it does is racist. Beethoven was European. It is clear
> in his music, his writing, and his outlook. These are aspects that make
> Beethoven Beethoven. Now, if I shade his skin color darker- does that
> no longer make him European?
Well, I guess it is racist if you define racist as 'concerning race'. I
never perceived my response as a denial that he was European. As far as I
am aware one can have dark skin and be European at the same time.
However, if one's skin color is dark as a result of foreparents that were
from Africa, then we have something called African Heritage. My point in
my previous post is that, unlike some have stated, this question may have
some consequence to people of African heritage.
>
> 1] The placement of Beethoven as "black" is a political motivated action.
That would be your opinion.
> Now, do the Arab cultures think of themselves as "black"? Definitely not.
> The countries of Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, et al. do not think highly of the
> sub-Saharan Africans. Why should I accept this "scholars" assessment that
> Beethoven was black when the Moors and their descendents do not think of
> themselves in such a regard?
I quess it kind of depends on how you define blackness. I concede this
point in that I don't think that I was very clear about it in the first
post. I quess that is why many 'blacks' in the United States are opting
for the descriptor African-American. I can't speak to whether modern
Egyptians would feel that they and I come from similar heritages. I,
however, do claim the history of at least Egypt as part of my heritage.
Would I claim the Moors; based on my admittedly relatively unread
understanding of their history, probably.
>
> 2] I do not think that Othello was such a beast.
I'm not sure that Shakespere would have agreed with you. I suspect that
he would have considered both Iago and Othello beast-like in their own
ways.
> Furthermore, I see him as exactly what he is - a moor. Not black, not
white, >but moorish.
It's kind of that identity issue again.
> >For those of you who are wondering, yes, I am black. Do I like european
> >descended, heterosexual males? Yes, some of my best friends fit that
> >description, including one very special one; but I guess he doesn't count
> >cause he's not heterosexual.
>
> Why does he not count? Be proud of the people that you know- they're your
> friends. Why should you even suggest that your gay friend does not "count"?
> That assertion perpetuates the problem. You are highlighting the fact that
> he is _different_. If we keep accentuating our differences, are we ever going
> to become an equality based society.
I was pointing out that I don't consider myself biased against white,
heterosexual males. I hold many of them as dear friends. The comment
about the special friend not counting was a probably not so obvious joke.
My special friend is my partner and he very much counts.
Yu Zheng
His MUSIC is German, that's the only thing that matters.
By the way, I think Beethoven has a Dutch ancestory -- listen to his Egmont
Overture, one of my favorites.
Here is Beethoven's family history as I know it. I don't see anything
"African" in it.
Grandfather:
Ludwig van Beethoven (1712 - 73), a Flemish singer, later a Kapellmeister. He
was also his grandson's godfather.
Father:
Johann van Beethoven (1740 - 92), Kapellmeister.
Mother:
Maria Magdalena Keverich (1746 - 87), a young widow from Trier before marrying
Johann in 1767.
Beethoven was born on December 17, 1770 in Bonn. His two brothers, Caspar
Carl and Johann were born in 1774 and 1776.
Dave
Eugene Zhu Xia
: Those who automatically protest "Who cares?? I don't!! It doesn't
: matter!" at any question relating to a composer's ethnicity or sexuality
: in this group (and the protests come, predictable as death and taxes),
: are ignoring two things. (1) There's a basic netiquette idea that if
: somebody asked the question, it matters to them. (2) We all get into
: biographical details about composers all the time: Beethoven's deafness,
: Bach's church job and children, Robert and Clara Schumann, and on and
: on. Why should just certain topics be off-limits for well-informed
: discussion? The fact is, we don't listen to classical music as if it
: fell from the moon; we *do* sometimes like to know something about the
: circumstances of its composition. Some of us more than others, and all
: differing as to what interests us most, of course. But that's to be
: expected, and it seems poor manners to disallow someone else's point of
: interest.
Jon, while I agree that it is a legitimate research topic, I still
think it is not important. Regardless of his race, Beethoven's
life experience is no different from any other German, culturally
speaking. The reason we are so worked up on the race issue is
precisely because different enthic/racial groups in America have
different experiences. This is not to say there were no ethnic/racial
problems in Beethoven's Germany, (The Jews were certainly considered
as a different ethnic group.) but rather Beethoven was
not considered by anyone as a member of a minority/ethnic group.
For this reason, Mendlesonn (never figure out how to spell
his name) is sometime considered a Jewish composer.
Eugene
David Pickering
Nazis (.. by Yakov Horenstein@public
> David Pickering (dp...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
> : >
> : apolitical. At the same time there were other artists such as Herbert
> : von Karajan, Karl Bohm, Fritz Busch, Hans Knappertsbusch, Clemens Krauss
> : and others, who were members of the party, some of whom used the nazis
> : to advance their careers (von Karajan in particular benefitted from
> : being Goebbel's fair haired boy), and yet managed to more or less avoid
> : being stigmatized with the nazi label after the war.
>
> Busch left Germany in 1934 because of nazi harassment.
Yakov is correct. My apologies to all for inadvertantly besmirching the
memory of Fritz Busch.
John E. Harrington
>j...@iris77.biosym.com (John E. Harrington) writes:
>
>
>>I find Person-Lynn's argument convincing that Beethoven was black in appearance.
>>His mother may indeed have been a Moor, though no evidence is given for this.
>
>consult either of the two standard beethoven biographies. his ancestry is
>traced back for several generations in the thayer biography, showing he
>was flemish. the argument that he was african or that his appearance was
>indisputably african [whatever that's supposed to mean] has about the same
>validity as arguments for pyramid power. it's nonsense. it's part of the
>melanin school of - one hesitates to call it thought - that leonard
>jeffries and similar people are trying to spread. remember back in the
>fifties when the ussr used to claim that the russians invented
>everything [question mark]. the melanin school does that for africans.
>claims the ancient egyptians invented the airplane, etc.
>
>carol mcalpine
Whether speculation about Beethoven's ancestory is part of the "melanin
school" as you put it, whether it is espoused by satan worshippers or,
worse, registered democrats is MEANINGLESS to the validity of Person-Lynne's
claim.
-J
--
*******************************************************************************
* DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is *
* personal opinion, not an official statement of Biosym Technologies, Inc. *
*******************************************************************************
John E. Harrington
>This has been discussed recently on the CLASSM-L mailing list. I shall
>state my position as succinctly as I can: I think the author of this
>article is expressing racist views.
>
>Beethoven was black because his mother was black. That's an argument
>which would have gone down well in Nazi Germany or pre-1990s South
>Africa.
>
>Leaving aside the relevance of what colour he actually was, why should
>we not equally validly argue that if his father was white, then
>Beethoven was white?
Because Person-Lynne cites several of Beethoven's contemporaries as
*explicitly* stating he was BLACK, that's why! Hence, Beethoven was
a black man. Get it?
>
>I detect an intellectually profoundly dishonest logic in this:
> we all know that nothing good came from the culture of dead
> white European males;
> Beethoven's music is undeniably good;
> Beethoven is also, inarguably, dead, European and male;
> therefore, Beethoven cannot have been white.
They must to keep their certainty accuse
All that are different of a base intent.
--WB Yeats
To the outraged readers of rmc:
Good GOD, WHAT is the problem? You just raise the possibility that
Beethoven was black, and you're automatically a RACIST? You're automatically
part of a "melanin" conspiracy to "steal" a famous white guy? While
others debate the fine points of Mozart's middle name, you are suddenly
"irrelevant"?
Dr. Person-Lynne has come up with several accounts of Beethoven's contemporaries
stating, in no uncertain terms, that he was black. I would think that
the self-proclaimed "purists" on this newsgroup would feel it incumbent
upon them to produce scholarship that refutes this, say one person stating
unequivocably that Beethoven was white in appearance. On the contrary,
what we get and continue to get is speculation ad nauseum about Person-
Lynne's motives.
I never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.
joseph louis rizzo
Excuse me, but Mr. Person-Lynn has failed to prove that Beethoven was
"black". He quotes some contempory accounts which state that Beethoven
was dark. Now, we must realize that this is a TRANSLATION. Which may not
necessarily mean that Beethoven was "black" in the modern American political
construction of the word, but perhaps "black" as in moody.
Now, if someone is black, then he must have a "black" parent. Now, why
does Mr. Person-Lynn FAIL to mention any proof that his mother was black.
All he does is prove it by assertion. Where is the scholarship or rigor in
that?
Second of all, you have failed to notice the RACIST ideas of Mr. Kwaku Person-
Lynn. He asserts that Beethoven's mother was a Moor- then CONCLUDE that
Beethoven was black. Now, I have asserted multiple times that the North
Africans and sub-Sahara africans have different cultures. These two groups
do not consider themselves to be one group. Only Americans group these two
cultures together- completely ignoring every differences between them.
Now if you want to propagate this racism, than as a thinking, rational
person you are welcome to do it. But do not be surprised when other
people are angered at it.
>
>
>-J
>
>--
>*******************************************************************************
>* DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is *
>* personal opinion, not an official statement of Biosym Technologies, Inc. *
>*******************************************************************************
James C Liu
>Whether speculation about Beethoven's ancestory is part of the "melanin
>school" as you put it, whether it is espoused by satan worshippers or,
>worse, registered democrats is MEANINGLESS to the validity of Person-Lynne's
>claim.
While it might be MEANINGLESS to the validity of PL's claim, it could very
easily add just a bit of VEHEMENCE to PL's claim, true or false, and as we
well know, there's nothing quite like BLIND, IDEOLOGICALLY MOTIVATED VEHEMENCE
to stifle rational discussion.
My $.02. I'm trying to stay out of this one.
--
/James C.S. Liu, MD "Studies have now shown that laboratory
jl...@world.std.com research causes cancer in rats."
Department of Medicine
New England Med Ctr, Boston MA -- from the After Dark screensaver
Joseph Ascoly
the comment was made that this is reason for criticism since people will
notice the difference. Probably not in the USA where the sights are not that
familiar. There was a location that Beethoven did visit namely Carlsbad.
(Called Carlo Vi Vari phonetically) This spa was a place visited by
Beethoven and also Mozart I believe. The movie shows that in a trip there,
Beethoven was delayed by a coach
breakdown and missed an appointment with - the movie would lead us to believe
was his Brother's wife. In fact the movie makes the point the Immortal
Beloved was his brother's wife. There are so many liberties taken in the
film industry that the location is only one of many sources for criticism.
Gabriel M. Kuper (ku...@ecrc.de) wrote:
: > I saw recently the movie Immortal Beloved which was filmed in Prague.
: I haven't seen the movie (it hasn't even opened in Germany: it will
: be fun to see the critics trashing it when it does), but I do wonder
: at the idea of filming it in Prague.
: It strikes me as an unimaginative copying of Forman (Prague for
: Vienna worked fine for Amadeus, so why not for Immortal Beloved).
: The difference is that Prague has become so popular a tourist attraction,
: in the meantime that many people seeing the movie must surely recognize
: the locations.
: I mean, if you made a movie that takes place in NY and filmed it in SF,
: calling the Golden Gate bridge the Brooklyn Bridge, everybody would
: make fun of you. Why is this any different? Gabriel Kuper
shire
henry...@aol.com (HenryFogel) wrote:
>>As a Jew myself, I have had no trouble reconciling my own admiration of
>Furtwangler with my background -- and I am not sure that there is a simple
>"right" answer as to what one "should" do in a ghastly situation like
>that.
Henry, thank you for another valuable addition to the group. Has anyone
mentioned Berta Geissmar's autobiography? I forget the title. She was WFs
secretary. She makes it clear that WF saved her life by forcing her to go to
England before the Nazis got her.
As to why WF stayed, the secret was buried with that strange, wonderful
artist. It's time to let his shade rest in peace and simply bathe in the
wonder of his work.
For my part, I have had no trouble reconciling myself to WF. In fact, no
music-making has provided the profound spiritual pleasures of his work. WF
set a standard for interpretation that few have equalled in my experience, and
one have surpassed.
pace, WF
s.
"Stephen Fry, where are you. Enquiring minds want to know. And so do I."
Joseph Ascoly
following item. In 1987 I worked at FAMU in Tall Fl. It was the first
time that I ever saw the term African-American in a letter from the
president to faculty. Very soon there after the FAMUAN the school paper
carried an article with the headline: BEETHOVEN WAS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN
I also read the mention that he was a moor.
I also read in a book that Beethoven was a manic depressive and this seems
to be a more significant item than his ancesters.
I saw recently the movie Immortal Beloved which was filmed in Prague.
I had seen on vacation.
Carol McAlpine
>Whether speculation about Beethoven's ancestory is part of the "melanin
>school" as you put it, whether it is espoused by satan worshippers or,
>worse, registered democrats is MEANINGLESS to the validity of Person-Lynne's
>claim.
i suppose you could stretch things really far and say that is so, though
your position on this one is awfully gullible.
but if the topic were, say, evolutionary biology and you found that
person-lynne was espousing an argument that had been developed and
circulated by a notorious creationist, wouldn't you feel that
person-lynne was going to need to do a great deal of extra explaining and
proving before you would be willing to accept his argument.
carol mcalpine
Carol McAlpine
>To the outraged readers of rmc:
>Good GOD, WHAT is the problem? You just raise the possibility that
>Beethoven was black, and you're automatically a RACIST? You're automatically
>part of a "melanin" conspiracy to "steal" a famous white guy? While
>others debate the fine points of Mozart's middle name, you are suddenly
>"irrelevant"?
>Dr. Person-Lynne has come up with several accounts of Beethoven's contemporaries
>stating, in no uncertain terms, that he was black. I would think that
>the self-proclaimed "purists" on this newsgroup would feel it incumbent
>upon them to produce scholarship that refutes this, say one person stating
>unequivocably that Beethoven was white in appearance. On the contrary,
>what we get and continue to get is speculation ad nauseum about Person-
>Lynne's motives.
>I never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.
good god, get real!! you never heard of words meaning one thing in one
period and something else in another, i suppose. remember all those black
people in jane austen's novels. it is completely obvious from the
context that what was meant by 'black man' back then was a white man who
had dark hair and eyes. that same usage can be found in britain on
through the nineteen-thirties. surely you have read things written before
1945 or so.
believe me, if beethoven had been of noticeably african descent we would
have heard about it a long time ago, and the term used would not have
been that he was black.
this one is an old canard that makes the rounds every few years. it's
just about as accurate as the 'protocols of the elders of zion.'
carol mcalpine
Dan Koren
>In article <3j2kgf$bnk...@ppp.dorsai.org> sh...@dorsai.org (shire) wrote:
>
>>WF set a standard for interpretation that few have equalled
>in my experience, and one have surpassed.
>
>ONE has surpassed."
Except that Celibidache has surpassed it, and by a wide margin.
dk
Kyle Elisabeth Overstreet
: To add to the discussion about Beethoven being an African - is the
: time that I ever saw the term African-American in a letter from the
: president to faculty. Very soon there after the FAMUAN the school paper
: carried an article with the headline: BEETHOVEN WAS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN
I think the big revelation here is the Beethoven was, in fact, American.
Joseph von Rosenberg
Wayne Labrador) writes:
>( snipped)
>
>To repeat: The references to Beethoven's skin tone by his
conteporaries
>(e.g. calling him "der Schwarze") say nothing about his racial
heritage.
>The phrase "der Schwarze" would have applied, in the Austria and
Germany of
>his time, to anyone with as much as olive skin *or* black hair.
Beethoven
>did have black hair (when young), and he did have ruddy skin. So do a
hell
>of a lot of other people of purely northern European ancestry. Other
>descriptions used by Person-Lynne (broad nose, etc.) are not unique to
>anyone of African or Moorish heritage -- *even* when taken together!
I have even heard the the term used in the loose English translation ,
"black dutch" to mean a german of swarthy complexion. It certainly does
not mean that he was of Negroid ancestory.
>Further, Beethoven's mother and her heritage were *not* unknown. Maria
>Magdalena van Beethoven (nee Keverich) came from a well-respected
German
>family. She was absolutely not a Moor.
>
>For that matter, Beethoven's paternal ancestors are known to be
Flemish,
>through several generations.
>
>[Rather than risk this information being forgotten or ignored, perhaps
I
>will re-post my original message...]
>
--
joe...@ix.netcom.com
Thermopylae had it's messenger of defeat.
The Alamo had none.
David Pickering
African? by Gabriel M. Ku...@ecrc.de
> > Since I was in Prague last summer - I noticed places in the movie that
> > I had seen on vacation.
>
> be fun to see the critics trashing it when it does), but I do wonder
> at the idea of filming it in Prague.
>
> It strikes me as an unimaginative copying of Forman (Prague for
> Vienna worked fine for Amadeus, so why not for Immortal Beloved).
> The difference is that Prague has become so popular a tourist attraction,
> in the meantime that many people seeing the movie must surely recognize
> the locations.
>
> I mean, if you made a movie that takes place in NY and filmed it in SF,
> calling the Golden Gate bridge the Brooklyn Bridge, everybody would
> make fun of you. Why is this any different?
In point of fact, a number of movies, supposedly taking place in New
York, have been filmed in other cities--Toronto and Pittsburgh in
particular are popular because the cost of filming there is much lower
than it would be in New York or LA. I wouldn't be surprised if cost was
a factor in the decision to film both "Amadeus" and "Immortal Beloved"
in Prague rather than Vienna.
shire
sh...@dorsai.org (shire) wrote:
>WF set a standard for interpretation that few have equalled
in my experience, and one have surpassed.
>
Typo: that should have read, "that few have equalled and NO
ONE has surpassed."
pace, indeed
Allan Wayne Labrador
>From: dba...@turing.camosun.bc.ca (Deryk Barker)
>>
>>Leaving aside the relevance of what colour he actually was, why should
>>we not equally validly argue that if his father was white, then
>>Beethoven was white?
>Because Person-Lynne cites several of Beethoven's contemporaries as
>*explicitly* stating he was BLACK, that's why! Hence, Beethoven was
>a black man. Get it?
>Dr. Person-Lynne has come up with several accounts of Beethoven's contemporaries
>stating, in no uncertain terms, that he was black. I would think that
>the self-proclaimed "purists" on this newsgroup would feel it incumbent
>upon them to produce scholarship that refutes this, say one person stating
>unequivocably that Beethoven was white in appearance. On the contrary,
>what we get and continue to get is speculation ad nauseum about Person-
>Lynne's motives.
<sigh> Did no one (other than Tom Wood) see my previous message on this
subject? *I* certainly didn't say anything about Person-Lynne's motivation,
and I *did* provide information about what is actually *known* about
Beethoven's ancestry and race.
To repeat: The references to Beethoven's skin tone by his conteporaries
(e.g. calling him "der Schwarze") say nothing about his racial heritage.
The phrase "der Schwarze" would have applied, in the Austria and Germany of
his time, to anyone with as much as olive skin *or* black hair. Beethoven
did have black hair (when young), and he did have ruddy skin. So do a hell
of a lot of other people of purely northern European ancestry. Other
descriptions used by Person-Lynne (broad nose, etc.) are not unique to
anyone of African or Moorish heritage -- *even* when taken together!
Further, Beethoven's mother and her heritage were *not* unknown. Maria
HenryFogel
>Except that Celibidache has surpassed it, and by a wide margin.
>dk
Are you trying to be provocative, or do you really believe this to be true
over a wide range of music?
Just curious.
Henry Fogel
Allan Wayne Labrador
[posted to rec.music.classical on 2/22/95, reposted here with some slight
editing from the original]
<sigh> This whole "Beethoven was black" rumor seems to pop up every once
in a while, just rarely enough for people to have forgotten how it was either
put to rest or at least set aside the last time it came up. The last time
I saw it on usenet was back in 1993, and I'm kind of surprised that some
of the old-timers on r.m.c., who were around in 1993, haven't replied yet.
Or maybe I'm not surprised. Lots of people have more pressing matters to
attend to, and replying yet again to this rumor may be low on the priority
list of those who know more facts than I do.
Here's what I recall from 1993: The "Beethoven was black" rumor seems to
have been started by a DJ in Oakland, CA, around 1970 (according to a post
by a rec.music.classical contributor during the 1993 discussion -- I believe
he's still a contributor to this group). I don't know the history of the
rumor, but I first heard it at Stanford in ~1988 as part of what became a
rather notorious racial incident and campus controversy. Unless I missed
something, 1993 was the last time this discussion surfaced on r.m.classical.
Most assertions about Beethoven's alleged non-European ancestry have to do with
English translations of German words. Beethoven apparently was called, on
occasion, "der Schwarze", but this phrase was applicable back then to anyone
with so much as olive skin. It might also have applied to someone with black
hair, which the young Beethoven had. Olive skin or black hair is not uncommon in
Germans or other Europeans. Other adjectives brought up to describe Beethoven
(e.g. broad nose, ruddy complexion, etc.) are also applicable to many Europeans
and are therefore not necessarily indicative of African/Negro or Moorish
ancestry. Beethoven was also described as having short, stocky legs and
broad, reddish hands, yet I doubt these would be stereotypical characteristics
of the ethnic groups in question.
However, ignoring for the moment the difficulties of language and the wide
variance in appearance between members of any given ethnic group, what *is*
known about Beethoven's heritage and appearance? That is, what *do* we
know, apart from some adjectives and questionable assertions? The rumor seems
to depend in part on us not knowing some things, but in fact, we do know
a lot of things under discussion. (Generally, my sources are Thayer's
Life of Beethoven (Forbes ed.), and Maynard Solomon's _Beethoven_. The rest
is my admittedly fallible memory, plus some stuff from _The New Grove
Beethoven_.)
Heritage: Some have asserted that Beethoven's mother may have been a Moor.
Let's take this at face value. According to any dictionary or encyclopedia,
a Moor is "a member of a Moslem people of mixed Berber and Arab descent, now
living chiefly in northwest Africa" (American Heritage Dictionary, 3rd Ed.).
The term is also used to describe the people who were "ejected" from Spain
in the late 15th century.
Beethoven's mother was Maria Magdalena van Beethoven. She was born on
12/19/1746, she married Johann Leym at the age of 16, and she was widowed
in 1765 before she was 19. Her father was Heinrich Keverich, chief overseer
of the kitchen at the elector's palace in Ehrenbreitstein. Apparently,
his family and his position were well-respected. He was born 1/14/1702
and died on 8/3/1759, when Maria Magdalena was only 12 years old. Before
his death, however, his position assured his family of a comfortable
existence. (BTW, Johann Leym was also valet to the Elector of Trier, also
a comfortable position.)
Maria Magdalena's mother was Anna Clara Westorff (born 11/8/1707, married
8/14/1731, and died ~9/1768). She had six children, of whom four died in
infancy, and she became the family breadwinner as a cook at court. She could
claim that her family included wealthy merchants, court councillors, and
senators, according to Schiedermair (Solomon, _Beethoven_, p. 6).
(Given Maria Magdalena's family background, Schiedermair could remark that
Maria Magdalena Keverich, rather than Johann van Beethoven (Ludwig's father),
"contracted a marriage beneath her station." (Solomon, _Beethoven_, p. 6))
Given this background alone, it is reasonable to conclude that Maria Magdalena
was a German from a well-respected family, and it's far less reasonable to think
that she was of "of mixed Berber and Arab descent." What physical descriptions
that I can find do not include anything like "dark skin" or other things
alleged to make Beethoven African or Moor. She was described as slender, kind,
gentle, and serious, but no mention is made of non-German appearance. Further,
her birthday and name-day were the same, and the feast of St. Mary Magdalene
was celebrated with due solemnity and in good Catholic/Christian tradition in
the Beethoven family.
It's reasonable to conclude that she wasn't a Moslem. She was certainly not
from northwest Africa!
(I also seem to recall that Beethoven kept miniature portraits of his parents,
and though the accuracy of these may be questionable, I don't recall that the
portrait of his mother indicated someone of non-German ethnicity. Has anyone
seen a picture of these portraits recently?)
Just for the hell of it: Beethoven's father was Johann van Beethoven, born in
1739 or 1740 and an only (surviving) child. Johann's father was Ludwig (the
elder!) van Beethoven, a Kapellmeister whom Beethoven venerated. Johann's
mother was Maria Josepha Poll, born ~1714. Very little is known about her
other than that she was, apparently, an alcoholic and that she was placed
in a cloister, where she eventually died on 9/30/1775.
"Ludwig van Beethoven the elder [Beethoven's grandfather] was baptized on
January 5, 1712, at Malines in Belgium, the third son of Michael and Mary."
[Solomon, _Beethoven_, p. 7] The family prospered in various commercial
ventures (Michael was a master baker, among other things) until a reversal
of fortune sent them to Bonn to escape Flemish courts. The elder Ludwig
was trained as a singer and organist, and he was a singer or director in
various choirs until he became Kapellmeister in Bonn from 1761 until his
death in 1773. He also had time to pursue a wine business, apart from his
court duties.
I have seen no evidence that Beethoven's paternal ancestry was other than
Flemish and that his maternal ancestry was other than German. The bulk of
the evidence is that he was indeed German-Flemish.
In fact, regarding the "Beethoven was black" rumor and Beethoven's ancestry,
it seems that the *least* is known about his paternal grandmother and her
ancestors. Is Poll a German or Flemish name? The rumor, however, goes through
Beethoven's mother.
Finally, Beethoven's physical appearance: It would seem to me that, rather
than rely on second hand verbal or written descriptions (mostly English,
translated out of context from German), it would be better to rely on
portraits and sculptures from life-masks. None of the portraits that I have
seen would give even a hint of Negroid or Moorish facial characteristics.
Note that many of these portraits were commissioned by Beethoven himself,
and while portraits like the 1804/5 portrait by Mahler may be romanticized,
many of them may be considered reasonable representations of Bethoven. The
1804/5 and 1815 portraits by Mahler do indeed show a ruddy complexion,
particularly the later one, which also shows a broad nose (and possibly even
a hint of 5 o'clock shadow). (The 1804/5 portrait also shows what may be
a fair representation of Beethoven's hand.) The 1814 engraving by Hofel (cited
by Grove as probably "the best representation") shows a similar appearance
to the 1815 Mahler, including a possibly dark complexion. The bust by Franz
Klein was made after a life-mask of 1812 (also pictured in Grove), so it is
almost certainly a good representation. While the skin tone is not to be
determined from the bust, other facial features closely resemble those of
the portraits. However, none of these indicates a non-German/non-Flemish
heritage.
One important thing to consider is that Beethoven apparently contracted a case
of smallpox while he was young. His face was notably pockmarked, and the signs
of his illness were visible on his face through at least his young adulthood.
This almost certainly had an affect on descriptions of his complexion. Also,
he had his first signs of jaundice around 1820 or so.
Finally, Beethoven kept an oil portrait of his grandfather throughout his
adult life. My feeling is that this portrait is at least somewhat romanticized,
but there is also a vague family resemblance between this portrait and some
of the portraits taken from later in Beethoven's life (notably the broad
forehead and the shape of the eyes, IMO). I note that the portrait of the
elder Ludwig also shows a somewhat ruddy complexion, which Beethoven may have
inherited. (Of course, it may also have been the lighting or "style" of
painting of the day...I'm no art historian!)
Of course, the elder Ludwig was known to be Flemish, and the rumor, again,
points to the mother.
Avi Levy
>
>In article <3j2gh7$7...@core.symnet.net>, asc...@symnet.net (Joseph
Ascoly) writes:
>> In the discussion about the location for the Beethoven film IMMORTAL
BELOVED
>> the comment was made that this is reason for criticism since people
will
>> notice the difference. Probably not in the USA where the sights are
not that
>> familiar. There was a location that Beethoven did visit namely
Carlsbad.
>
>But that's exactly what I was quetioning. You should see the
>number of American tourists in Prague these days! I thought
>Forman's decision to use it for Amadeus was very clever, for
>this very reason, but times have changed.
>
>Gabriel Kuper
>
The only reason this movie was shot in Prague is money. Prague is still
considerably cheaper to shoot in than Vienna (believe me, I've done it
in both places). However, it isn't likely that most people will
recognize it as Prague since you always shoot some establishing shots in
the "real" location which makes the viewer buy the rest of the
locations. And let's face it, if audiences start noticing the location
- your movie is in trouble.
Gabriel M. Kuper
> the comment was made that this is reason for criticism since people will
> notice the difference. Probably not in the USA where the sights are not that
> familiar. There was a location that Beethoven did visit namely Carlsbad.
But that's exactly what I was quetioning. You should see the
Dan Koren
>
>>Except that Celibidache has surpassed it, and by a wide margin.
>
>>dk
>
>Are you trying to be provocative,
I never try to be provocative (I haven't inherited Glenn Gould's ghost!)
> or do you really believe this to be true over a wide range of music?
Yes, I do. Celibidache has taken Furtwaengler's interpretational style,
which he clearly inherited, one step further, perhaps even to its limits.
I believe Celibidache has surpassed Furtwaengler in at least two respects:
breadth of repertoire, and degree of control over the sound produced by an
orchestra. I have not heard Furtwaengler live, so I do not have a first hand
reference for comparison. I have however heard almost every great conductor
since the 1960's, and I must say I have never heard anyone get out of any
orchestra the sound palette Celibidache could get out of the Stockholm
Radio Symphony - not HvK conducting the BPO or the VPO, not Haitink
conducting the Concertgebouw, not Bernstein or Maazel conducting the
VPO, not Giulini conducting Chicago, etc.
The only ones who came close, but didn't quite get there, were Munch,
Pretre, and Martinon.
Celibidache is unique in combining the French school's gift of timbre
and texture control, with the German school's architectural grasp of
a score, with the Russian school's intensity and pathos, Oriental
mistery, and with a sense of humor only possible in someone born
and raised in Eastern Europe. He is the only conductor who can
give you the ultimate Mozart, Haydn, Brahms, Schubert, Bruckner,
Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Strauss, Ravel, Debussy, Faure,
Respighi, Prokofiev or Shostakovich, all in one concert (time
permitting :-) ). And yes, I heard him do that.
dk
Deryk Barker
: In article <3ionq7$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
: henry...@aol.com (HenryFogel) wrote:
: >>As a Jew myself, I have had no trouble reconciling my own admiration of
: >Furtwangler with my background -- and I am not sure that there is a simple
: >"right" answer as to what one "should" do in a ghastly situation like
: >that.
: Henry, thank you for another valuable addition to the group. Has anyone
: mentioned Berta Geissmar's autobiography? I forget the title. She was WFs
: secretary. She makes it clear that WF saved her life by forcing her to go to
: England before the Nazis got her.
The Baton and the Jackboot? She became Beecham's secretary.
--
Deryk.
===========================================================================
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Across the pale parabola of Joy |
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada | |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | Ralston McTodd |
|phone: +1 604 370 4452 | (Songs of Squalor). |
===========================================================================
Deryk Barker
: From: dba...@turing.camosun.bc.ca (Deryk Barker)
: --WB Yeats
Except that 'black' as a description in the 19th century did not mean
African, it meant dark-skinned, swarthy. And P-L did not 'raise the
possibility' he (she?) wrote "let's get one thing straight, Beethoven
was black". P-L then goes on to claim (with no supporting evidence)
that B's mother was a Moor (who were/are Arabs) and that this
necessarily made him black.
I'm sorry you take such offense, but my offense was at what I perceive
to be dishonesty masquerading as scholarship. If P-L has genuine
evidence, apart from contemporary descriptions, that Beethoven was
partially non-Caucasian, then let's hear it.
Allan Wayne Labrador
>Furthermore, P-L's evident disregard for real scholarship (specifically those
>pieces of evidence which contradict his assertions as well as other scholarship
>which shows that his interpretations are not definitive), his (deliberate?)
>mistranslation of German, his reliance on people's assumed predilection
>for conspiracy theories, and his insulting assumption that people will just
>take him at his word and *not check up on his claims*, as I have done, all
>contribute to the ever decreasing esteem with which I view the doctorate
>of his which you so strenuously hold out for our attention.
Now that I've cooled down a bit, I realize that I've been somewhat unfair
to Dr. Person-Lynn, so I'll apologize and retract a bit of what I said.
In his LA Times article, he claims that he tells his students not to take
what he says at face value, and he says that he tells them to verify his claims.
By implication, it seems that he wants the LA Times readers to have the same
skepticism and undertake the same verification. (On the other hand, I think
it not too much to assume that, given his chosen forum of the LA Times, he
doesn't expect readers of the article in question actually to go about the
verification.)
In one paragraph, he does cite, for example, the MacArdle article which
contradicts the claim that Beethoven may have had African roots, but
paradoxically, he ignores such scholarship in proceeds to his conclusion.
I think this is enough to say that he disregards those who disagree with
his conclusion, and I think the tone of the article bears this out.
Furthermore, P-L does indeed give a couple of references for his quotes, but
as I have stated time and again, translations are inadequate, the words are
taken out of context, "dark" doesn't mean "African", etc. ad infinitum.
The Newsweek citation is, IMO, useless in a scholarly debate. Overall,
though, none of the quotes given indicates anything other than a dark-skinned
German (or Flemish-German), of whom there exist and have existed many who
are not of African descent.
In my opinion, it seems clear that P-L sees some sort of conspiracy regarding
portrayals of Beethoven's ethnic heritage -- conspiracy that ranges all the
way from past scholars to Hollywood.
Ultimately, P-L's article clearly ignores all other contrary evidence --
life masks, portraits, genealogy, other descriptions, and the fact that not
all northern Europeans have pale skin and light-colored hair. This, IMO, is
a huge mass of evidence that contradicts a selective set of words which, in the
end, is itself open to reevaluation.
All in all, I believe that I have made it clear that I have actually read and
investigated claims that Beethoven was of African heritage, including P-L's
article, and I hope it is clear that I have worked very very hard to be fair
on this issue. In the end, however, I still find P-L's claims to be without
real basis, and I find the "evidence" which he printed in the article to be
flimsy, at best. Therefore, I still stand by my opinions about his research
and claims. Whatever else I think about P-L is solely a reflection of his
LA Times article, as is my opinion of those who would (blindly, IMO) take that
article and its assertions as fact.
Fair enough?
John E. Harrington
>>Good GOD, WHAT is the problem? You just raise the possibility that
>>Beethoven was black, and you're automatically a RACIST? You're automatically
>>part of a "melanin" conspiracy to "steal" a famous white guy? While
>>others debate the fine points of Mozart's middle name, you are suddenly
>>"irrelevant"?
>>
>>Dr. Person-Lynne has come up with several accounts of Beethoven's contemporaries
>>stating, in no uncertain terms, that he was black. I would think that
>>the self-proclaimed "purists" on this newsgroup would feel it incumbent
>>upon them to produce scholarship that refutes this, say one person stating
>>unequivocably that Beethoven was white in appearance. On the contrary,
>>what we get and continue to get is speculation ad nauseum about Person-
>>Lynne's motives.
>>
>>I never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.
>
>Excuse me, but Mr. Person-Lynn has failed to prove that Beethoven was
>"black". He quotes some contempory accounts which state that Beethoven
>was dark. Now, we must realize that this is a TRANSLATION. Which may not
>necessarily mean that Beethoven was "black" in the modern American political
>construction of the word, but perhaps "black" as in moody.
Moody??? Oh PLEEEEEEZE. It is very clear that they are referring to his
appearance.
"blackish-brown complexion."
"Negroid traits, dark skin, flat, thick nose."
"His face reveals no trace of the German. He was so dark that people dubbed
him Spagnol [dark skinned]."
"His somewhat flat broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small piercing eyes
and swarthy complexion gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto."
"His beard--he had not shaved for several days--made the lower part of his
already brown face still darker."
No amount of evidence would convince you, would it? You obviously haven't
even bothered to read the original article.
>Now, if someone is black, then he must have a "black" parent. Now, why
>does Mr. Person-Lynn FAIL to mention any proof that his mother was black.
>All he does is prove it by assertion. Where is the scholarship or rigor in
>that?
Now, if someone is arguing against ***Dr.*** Person-Lynn, why should he FAIL
to do anything but argue endlessly about the motives behind the scholarship,
rather than responsibly *answer* the scholarship?
>Second of all, you have failed to notice the RACIST ideas of Mr. Kwaku Person-
>Lynn. He asserts that Beethoven's mother was a Moor- then CONCLUDE that
>Beethoven was black. Now, I have asserted multiple times that the North
>Africans and sub-Sahara africans have different cultures. These two groups
>do not consider themselves to be one group. Only Americans group these two
>cultures together- completely ignoring every differences between them.
For the last time, we are about APPEARANCE, NOT culture. See?
Beethoven was *obviously* culturally European. Indeed, he was the apotheosis
of European culture. He was also apparently black. Get used to it.
>Now if you want to propagate this racism, than as a thinking, rational
>person you are welcome to do it. But do not be surprised when other
>people are angered at it.
I'm not *propagating* anything. Although I found P-L's article convincing, I'm
not convinced by it. I just find it a hell of a lot more convincing than the
self-assured, self-righteous unsupported innuendo that is passing as a serious
answer to even the minimal scholarship that P-L has put forth.
And I find the theorizing about "melanin conspiracies", the "theft" of white
icons, the refusal to acknowledge P-L's doctorate, and the ironic assertion
that this discussion is irrelevant (made by the very same people who post
articles about what Mozart's middle name was) just saddeningly, tellingly,
revealingly embarassing. As I said, weeks ago I would have never believed
the reaction. It has been a real eye-opener, that's for sure.
The whole thing just makes me tired. I guess this will be my last post on the
subject. Rejoice. You've won.
Victor Khatutsky
[just a quick quote re: Furtwaengler]
: >>Except that Celibidache has surpassed it, and by a wide margin.
I (and probably others) would appreciate a short list of recordings that
support this judgement and preferably in some of Furtwaengler's repertoir.
Even though I enjoyed some of dk's recommendations before, I must
say I am sceptical this time around - at least as far as the intensity
level of the performances is concerned.
I guess this should be taken to r.m.c.r
Victor
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Allan Wayne Labrador
>"blackish-brown complexion."
>"Negroid traits, dark skin, flat, thick nose."
>"His face reveals no trace of the German. He was so dark that people dubbed
> him Spagnol [dark skinned]."
>"His somewhat flat broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small piercing eyes
> and swarthy complexion gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto."
>"His beard--he had not shaved for several days--made the lower part of his
> already brown face still darker."
>No amount of evidence would convince you, would it? You obviously haven't
>even bothered to read the original article.
No citations are given above. For another thing, I did read the original
article, and it struck me that Person-Lynne misquoted and/or mistranslated
what few phrases I did recognize. For example, the "blackish-brown
complexion" phrase is often thrown about whenever this myth is brought up.
It is a misquotation of Thayer's Life of Beethoven, p. 72, in which
Beethoven is described as having a "dark [not blackish] brown complexion."
Furthermore, Beethoven's complexion has been described in more detail as
ruddy, which is consistent with "dark" and even "reddish-brown" but is not
inherently Negroid.
Also, der Spagnol means "the Spaniard" and not "dark skinned." Also,
life masks -- taken from *Beethoven's actual face* -- and busts from life
masks do indeed show what might be described a broad nose, but not notably
a flat nose. In any case, broad and/or flat noses are not unique to those
of Negroid ancestry -- as I will be happy to show you with my own nose and
my own ancestry. For that matter, neither is dark skin, which is present
among people of purely northern European ancestry.
Finally, I have posted time and again that the phrase which seems to be used
most often by the myth's proponents as indicating Beethoven's ethnicity is
actually, in its original form, "der Schwarze." I have indicated, time and
again, that this term can apply to people with olive skin and/or black hair.
Someone else here has noted that the term can be translated as "black Dutch"
or some such thing, referring again not to Negroid ancestry.
Hell's Bells, Beethoven as a youth was even described as "an unlicked
bear." Are we to infer some sort of nonhuman species in his ancestry from
this phrase? Or should we take it, as convention dictates, as a metaphor?
Mr. Harrington continues:
>Now, if someone is arguing against ***Dr.*** Person-Lynn, why should he FAIL
>to do anything but argue endlessly about the motives behind the scholarship,
>rather than responsibly *answer* the scholarship?
[much deleted]
>I'm not *propagating* anything. Although I found P-L's article convincing, I'm
>not convinced by it. I just find it a hell of a lot more convincing than the
>self-assured, self-righteous unsupported innuendo that is passing as a serious
>answer to even the minimal scholarship that P-L has put forth.
>And I find the theorizing about "melanin conspiracies", the "theft" of white
>icons, the refusal to acknowledge P-L's doctorate, and the ironic assertion
>that this discussion is irrelevant (made by the very same people who post
>articles about what Mozart's middle name was) just saddeningly, tellingly,
>revealingly embarassing. As I said, weeks ago I would have never believed
>the reaction. It has been a real eye-opener, that's for sure.
Let me guess: You didn't even *read* my article on this subject, which I
have posted twice now to this group. In that article, I discussed the errors
in translation so often committed by the proponents of this myth. I pointed
to the abundance of evidence that supports conventional translations of
descriptions of Beethoven's appearance. I described Beethoven's ancestry
through several generations, finding that his ancestors were Flemish and
German and not Moors, as the myth's rather mixed-up proponents have sometimes
claimed. I even gave names, family backgrounds, etc -- these people were
not unknown or hidden in the mists of history. I confronted the "Beethoven
was black" myth with scholarship, and I challenge anyone to describe the
post as unsupported innuendo.
Nowhere in my article did I question anyone's motivations or accuse anyone
of racism. I may make such a statement now: Holding up P-L's doctorate
as evidence of the alleged truth of his assertions is, IMO, worthless. It
is the sort of reliance on unsubstantiated authority which our modern,
scientific, and skeptical civilization gave up as long ago as Galileo.
At least, our civilization *should* have given it up.
A doctorate usually, but not always, indicates the quality of past scholarship,
relative to the standards of those who awarded the degree, and the potential
quality of future scholarship.
A doctorate, however, is not a warranty.
There are always exceptions, as P-L's existence and assertions begin to show.
Furthermore, P-L's evident disregard for real scholarship (specifically those
pieces of evidence which contradict his assertions as well as other scholarship
which shows that his interpretations are not definitive), his (deliberate?)
mistranslation of German, his reliance on people's assumed predilection
for conspiracy theories, and his insulting assumption that people will just
take him at his word and *not check up on his claims*, as I have done, all
contribute to the ever decreasing esteem with which I view the doctorate
of his which you so strenuously hold out for our attention.
If you will examine the paragraph above, you will note that I have still not
accused anyone of racism, nor have I discussed race-based motivation. In
my previous, detailed article on this subject, I have answered P-L's claims
with actual information -- and citations which you can look up for yourself.
Earlier in this post, I confronted some of P-L's quotations and alleged
"scholarship" directly, and I repeated for the fourth or fifth time how many
such quotations are based on incorrect translations.
The closest thing to an attack which I have typed so far can be summarized
in one compound sentence: Person-Lynn's doctorate deserves as much respect
from me as does the alleged "scholarship" which he cites as evidence for
his assertion, and that is very little.
Furthermore, it is apparent that *you* either have not read my article or
have deliberately ignored it. It's possible, given the vagaries of usenet
and the finite sizes of news spools, that the former is the case, through no
fault of your own. Though I grow tired of seeing my own post, I will be happy
to repost the article for a third time, or I can e-mail it to you.
If the latter is the case (that you have deliberately ignored the information
I posted here), then you yourself have no right to imply that anyone
else in this thread is guilty of intellectual hypocrisy.
It is true that there exist people who, when faced with assertions that
contradict previously held positions, use invective rather than reason and
evidence to contradict what is asserted. I believe that, by my previous
posts, I have demonstrated that I am not one of these.
If, however, you have deliberately ignored the reasoned posts that contradict
P-L's article -- not just my own but those of others who have filled in
some holes (like the "black Dutch" thing, which I didn't know previously) --
then you yourself are guilty of the sin which you imply others are guilty of.
By withdrawing from the discussion (of which I, too, grow tired) and possibly
demonstrating that you are unwilling to hear reasonable argument, you lose
even a claim to the moral high ground, much less any support for P-L's
or your arguments.
joseph louis rizzo
>"Negroid traits, dark skin, flat, thick nose."
>"His face reveals no trace of the German. He was so dark that people dubbed
> him Spagnol [dark skinned]."
>"His somewhat flat broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small piercing eyes
> and swarthy complexion gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto."
>"His beard--he had not shaved for several days--made the lower part of his
> already brown face still darker."
>
Dear Mr. Harrington,
I very much doubt that these contempories said exactly what you
quoted. This is a very simple assertion, and quite easy to prove. My
proof is that they were German- and spoke German. Not to mention, the
dialect that they spoke has probably changed a great deal to modern German.
If you do not know what I mean, read English writers from the same period.
You will see, not surprisingly, that the language has changed greatly.
In as much as that is true, I doubt whether or not these quotations
were translated accurately. Now, it may not be any fault of Dr. Persons-Lynn.
It may be accidental. I was watching a Spanish music video where the people
were singing about "los hijos de pantalon". This I was translating as
"boys of pants". When I saw the title of the video at the end, I saw that
the song title was the "hijos de Pantalon"- which translates into the boys
of Pantalon (some place, I guess).
Why this innane little story? Simply to illustrate the difficulties
one has with translations. Whenever you are dealing with such an item, you
should cross check the translation to make sure that you are translating it
correctly. Otherwise, you may have biased the research over a simple
technicality as a incorrect translation.
>No amount of evidence would convince you, would it? You obviously haven't
>even bothered to read the original article.
>
I have yet to see a single shred of real evidence. Talking about the skin
color of Beethoven does not PROVE anything. If I took a collection of
descriptions of contempory people and posted it to the net, I very much
doubt that anyone could accurately name the racial background of every
person.
Now, if you want to take Dr. Persons-Lynn's words as true or intriguing,
as a free individual you are wholely entitled to do so. On the other hand,
I have every right to play the skeptic. When racial politics starts playing
a role in "scientific" research, you end up with studies which justify such
things as a holocaust. If it is racist or not cannot be determined from the
article. On the other hand, I see that the post could easily have a racist
bias inheirent in it. As such, I speak out against it.
Personally, I would much rather sound like a full-fledged ass hole than
allow racial bigotry to appear in my sphere of influence. Sorry if this
offends you.
>
>-J
>
>--
>*******************************************************************************
>* DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is *
>* personal opinion, not an official statement of Biosym Technologies, Inc. *
>*******************************************************************************
--
J.L.Rizzo, II
"I am sorry, but what you have mistaken for malicious intent is nothing
more than sheer incompetance!"
Allan Labrador
> In article <1995Mar6.1...@biosym.com>,
> John E. Harrington <j...@iris77.biosym.com> wrote:
> >
> >"blackish-brown complexion."
> >"Negroid traits, dark skin, flat, thick nose."
> >"His face reveals no trace of the German. He was so dark that people dubbed
> > him Spagnol [dark skinned]."
> >"His somewhat flat broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small piercing eyes
> > and swarthy complexion gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto."
> >"His beard--he had not shaved for several days--made the lower part of his
> > already brown face still darker."
> >
>
> Dear Mr. Harrington,
> I very much doubt that these contempories said exactly what you
> quoted. This is a very simple assertion, and quite easy to prove. My
> proof is that they were German- and spoke German. Not to mention, the
> dialect that they spoke has probably changed a great deal to modern German.
> If you do not know what I mean, read English writers from the same period.
> You will see, not surprisingly, that the language has changed greatly.
I've touched on the issue of translations before, but perhaps I should fill in
some holes. I have already noted that Beethoven was occasionally called "der
Schwarze" which means, literally, the black or the blackness, and less literally
"black Dutch." I have also noted that this term can refer to anyone with olive
or ruddy skin and/or black hair, and it does not refer to race. [ref. various
previous contributors to rec.music.classical, recently and in the more distant
past]
The "Spagnol" reference (or "der Spagnol" -- I believe that it is
mentioned in Thayer, and possibly in Solomon) has been translated before
as Spaniard. [ref.
a contributor to the 1993 appearance of this rumor on rec.music.classical] In
my German dictionary, Spaniard is given as "Spanier," but since the French
translation is "Espagnol," I have no reason to doubt that "der Spagnol" is
Spaniard in a western German dialect. It may be an indirect reference to
Beethoven's skin tone, but again, I doubt it's a reference to his race.
(Did I mention that Beethoven's mother, Maria Magdalena van Beethoven, was
*not* a Moor?)
The "Negroid traits" reference is from a German anthropologist (Emil Ludwig?)
whom I don't recognize, either as a noted anthropologist or as a companion
of Beethoven's. I find it, by itself, to be of dubious usefulness. The "thick
nose" is a little confusing and may be a faulty English translation. Also,
the history of German anthropology, particularly as it bears on racial
characteristics, may be considered somewhat spotty.
As for Fanny Giannatasio del Rio's "resemblance to a mulatto" reference, this
(P-L's LA Times article) is the only place I've ever seen it, and I haven't
read Fanny Giannatasio's work. People around Beethoven knew that Bridgetower
was a mulatto, and given that nobody else described Beethoven as such, I
suspect that Giannatasio's description is merely a personal impression given
over to exaggeration. In any case, it's nothing more than a "resemblance."
Regarding Beethoven's "flat, broad" nose, I have seen references only to the
width of his nose, not to an alleged flatness. In any case, again, racial
stereotypes need not apply. As for the broad or wide mouth (misidentified by
Mr. Harrington in his original post as "broad lips"), this contradicts
descriptions of the young Beethoven as having a small, delicately shaped
mouth.
It may have changed with age, but it is doubtful that it was racial.
As for "broad lips" (again, racial stereotypes need not apply), the bust
from the life mask (1812 or 1814 -- I forgot) shows nothing unusual about
the lips, except that they appear thin and somewhat pursed. Further, the
nose is not unusual. Portraits show similar features.
Finally, nobody has ever denied that Beethoven had a dark complexion. This is
given time and again in all the major biographies -- Thayer, Solomon, and
Tyson and Kern(? the Grove book). However, none of these descriptions are
indicative of anything other than a dark tone to the skin, which is not
uncommon in people of purely northern (or western) European heritage, especially
if anyone having something darker than pale skin may be called "dark." The
"blackish-brown complexion" phrase has been given elsewhere as "dark brown
complexion." Other phrases noted by Person-Lynn are "dark", "brown", etc.
Unfortunately, I lack access to the German originals. However, it shouldn't
be hard to examine various German back-translations and see what is generally
appropriate. While I have already touched on schwarz ("black"), I should
note that the German word braun can be translated as "brown" as well as
"tanned", both of which may have applied to Beethoven. In other descriptions,
Beethoven's skin tone is explicitly described as "ruddy", for which the German
word is ro:tlich (o: is o with two dots over it), which itself doesn't indicate
any racial characteristic. It is consistent, however, with many portraits
of Beethoven.
The German word for "dark" is dunkel, which I believe is used to describe
something like a dark room rather than skin tone. Other figurative translations
are du:ster and tru:be, both of which mean dark, cloudy, or gloomy. Both
of these, in a certain context, may actually be indicative of Beethoven's
occasional scowls or moods, as suggested by Mr. Rizzo in a previous post.
Furthermore, Beethoven was also called an "unlicked bear" -- referring to his
suspicious nature -- so these other words may have been appropriate. If
they are taken out of such context, as Dr. Person-Lynn may have done, then
their English translation of "dark" may be misused to describe only skin tone
-- which, I must add yet again, says nothing absolute about race.
Whether dunkel, du:ster, and tru:be were actually used to describe Beethoven
is unknown to me, since, as I have noted, I don't have the German originals.
However, it seems to me that "dark" may be subsumed under der Schwarze, braun,
and ro:tlich, when used to describe skin tone.
In the end, I find claims that these verbal or written descriptions prove that
Beethoven had African or Moorish ancestry to be utterly unconvincing. When I
add in portraits, sculptures, Beethoven's known ancestry, a wider and less-
selective set of descriptions of Beethoven's appearance, and a skeptical and
informed view of German-to-English translation, I find the "Beethoven was
Black" claim to be ridiculous.