Australian Virtuoso Defends David Helfgott
Peter Chang
Wednesday March 12 11:30 AM EST
Australian Virtuoso Defends Tarnished 'Shine' Hero
CANBERRA, Australia (Reuter) - Australia's most respected pianist sprang
to the defense of "Shine" hero David Helfgott
Wednesday after U.S. critics slammed the pianist for erratic
performances during a sell-out North American tour.
"He's the last person in this entire profession, perhaps, who's not
bitchy, or smart, or trying to take advantage of somebody
else's career," pianist Roger Woodward said.
Helfgott, whose remarkable comeback from a mental breakdown inspired the
Oscar-nominated motion picture "Shine," has
been dismissed by U.S. critics as an untalented pianist
opportunistically promoted to exploit the film's success.
"We have reached the point where a disturbed man who can barely play the
piano is suddenly the hottest person in classical
music," said the Washington Post after Helfgott's American debut in
Boston last week.
But Woodward, portrayed in the film as Helfgott's great childhood rival,
said the pianist should be thanked for attracting new
fans to the music.
"Because of the success of this extraordinary film and his career in
life and what he's done, and the way he's brought all these
strands together, he's done a colossal service to classical music all
over the world," Woodward said.
"Shine" has been seen by 27 million people around the world and has been
nominated for seven Oscars, including best picture
and best actor for Geoffrey Rush, who plays Helfgott.
Helfgott's recording of Rachmaninoff's Third Piano Concerto has been the
hottest-selling classical music album in the United
States, even though critics said it was erratic.
Reuters/Variety
av...@aol.com
>Helfgott's recording of Rachmaninoff's Third Piano Concerto has been the
>hottest-selling classical music album in the United
>States, even though critics said it was erratic.
>
>Reuters/Variety
either the public is sticking its finger at the critics, or it does not know good music from not so good music.
may i remind you that many recordings on MAHLER's 5th were sold in 1968 under the banner of "the music from Bobby Kennedy's funeral" or "the music from the film 'death in venice' "
avik-gms
avik-gms
John Grabowski
In <332706...@tamaix.tamu.edu> Peter Chang
<k0c...@tamaix.tamu.edu> writes:
>
>Wednesday March 12 11:30 AM EST
>
>Australian Virtuoso Defends Tarnished 'Shine' Hero
>
>CANBERRA, Australia (Reuter) - Australia's most respected pianist
sprang
>to the defense of "Shine" hero David Helfgott
>Wednesday after U.S. critics slammed the pianist for erratic
>performances during a sell-out North American tour.
[etc.]
Interesting post, but for me it's wide of the point, since for me the
only issue is whether DH is good, and as good as they say (comparable
to Schnabel, claim some), not whether he's nice or sweet or charming.
After all, Beethoven was no bed of roses.
John
John Grabowski
In <19970312204...@ladder01.news.aol.com> av...@aol.com
writes:
I know someone who knows nothing about classical music and normally
wouldn't go to a concert, but she wishes she could see DH just because
the film touched her and she thinks he's "so sweet." So that may
partially answer your question. Personality effects a lot of what
people perceive between their ears.
BTW, Avik, please learn to use the "return" key when you type. Your
words have a tendency to run off the screen and into the next township
of cyberspace. ;-)
John
Robert Silverman
av...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In article <332706...@tamaix.tamu.edu>, Peter Chang <k0c...@tamaix.tamu.edu> writes:
>
> >Helfgott's recording of Rachmaninoff's Third Piano Concerto has been the
> >hottest-selling classical music album in the United
> >States, even though critics said it was erratic.
> >
> >Reuters/Variety
>
> either the public is sticking its finger at the critics, or it does not know good music from not so good music.
>
> may i remind you that many recordings on MAHLER's 5th were sold in 1968 under the banner of "the music from Bobby Kennedy's funeral" or "the music from the film 'death in venice' "
>
competent performers.
RS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: rob...@unixg.ubc.ca
website: http://www.sloth.com/sloth/silverman/home.html
(lots to see and hear; nothing for sale)
Jeremy Berman
In <5g776d$o...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> joh...@ix.netcom.com(John
Grabowski) writes:
>
>In <19970312204...@ladder01.news.aol.com> av...@aol.com
>writes:
>>
>>I
>>may i remind you that many recordings on MAHLER's 5th were sold in
>1968 under the banner of "the music from Bobby Kennedy's funeral" or
>"the music from the film 'death in venice' "
>>
>>
I'd imagine there was a run on Mozart's 21st Piano Concerto after the
movie "Elvira Madigan." Heck, you still see the name of the movie after
the concerto on some recordings. As others have written, it's not the
quality of the performance, it's the feeling people have leaving the
movie. Somehow listening to the piece again keeps the feeling alive in
the listener for a while. I bet many non-classical listeners who bought
the Mozart have thrown out there copy of the LP long ago. So much, for
bringing a larger audience to classical music. It's more often than not
piece specific.
-----Jeremy
>
Andrys D Basten
In article <5g76vt$4...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Apples and oranges, to coin a new phrase.
You wanted good reviews from critics and I'll send some. I won't post
them here because good or bad reviews don't mean much in a case like
this where people are not going because he's a good pianist. Too much
written about this already. And as for 'whether DH is good' - just
because any or a few critics might like his CD, or even portions of his
recital, doesn't mean he's "good" - only that tastes and standards sure
differ!
But as one newspaper pointed out, what he communicates to his
audiences is refreshingly a cut above the Larry Flynts and Howard Sterns
who fill the airwaves and theaters (though I find Stern's political
incorrectness sometimes refreshing while his Christopher Reeve comments
show an especially insensitive mind).
- A (who will send the reviews again once I get home)
--
,------------------------------------------------------------------------,
| Andrys Basten <and...@netcom.com> | Certified Netware Engineer |
| Have Early Music, Will Travel | Basten Micro Consulting |
| Harpsichord, recorders | Berkeley/SF, CA 510-235-3861 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Andrys D Basten
The rest of it still goes :)
av...@aol.com
>True. After "Ten" there was a run on "Bolero" for these same reasons.
>I'd imagine there was a run on Mozart's 21st Piano Concerto after the
>movie "Elvira Madigan." Heck, you still see the name of the movie after
thanks,good examples.
avik-gms
av...@aol.com
>> may i remind you that many recordings on MAHLER's 5th were sold in 1968
>under the banner of "the music from Bobby Kennedy's funeral" or "the music
>from the film 'death in venice' "
>>
>Yeah, but the performances themselves were in all probability by
>competent performers.
>
>RS
touche...
avik
av...@aol.com
>BTW, Avik, please learn to use the "return" key when you type. Your
>words have a tendency to run off the screen and into the next township
>of cyberspace. ;-)
I AM NOT SURE WHAT THAT MEANS BUT THE "RETURN" TAKES CARE OF ITSELF. AT THE END OF THE LINE IT MOVES TO THE NEXT ONE.
avik
Eric Schissel
In article <19970313135...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<av...@aol.com> wrote:
>joh...@ix.netcom.com(John Grabowski) writes:
>
>>BTW, Avik, please learn to use the "return" key when you type. Your
>>words have a tendency to run off the screen and into the next township
>>of cyberspace. ;-)
>
>I AM NOT SURE WHAT THAT MEANS BUT THE "RETURN" TAKES CARE OF ITSELF. AT
>THE END OF THE LINE IT MOVES TO THE NEXT ONE.
>
>avik
Typical statement.
This is not true. To the best of my knowledge some word processors enter
a carriage return at the end of a line (and others add a linefeed instead,
ascii code 13 instead of 20), and some newsreaders automatically wordwrap
long lines no matter what kind of word processor was used to send them.
unix systems do not automatically wordwrap when they read in. hence,
kindly do so yourself.
Your statement shows ignorance.
-Eric Schissel
David Brooks
schi...@lightlink.com (Eric Schissel) writes:
>>I AM NOT SURE WHAT THAT MEANS BUT THE "RETURN" TAKES CARE OF ITSELF. AT
>[this carriage return added by Eric Schissel Industries. Patent pending.]
>>THE END OF THE LINE IT MOVES TO THE NEXT ONE.
>>
>>avik
>
>
>Typical statement.
>This is not true. To the best of my knowledge some word processors enter
>a carriage return at the end of a line (and others add a linefeed instead,
>ascii code 13 instead of 20), and some newsreaders automatically wordwrap
>long lines no matter what kind of word processor was used to send them.
>unix systems do not automatically wordwrap when they read in. hence,
>kindly do so yourself.
>Your statement shows ignorance.
Since Avik is on AOL, there is no need for all these hypotheticals. AOL
news posting uses a proprotional font editor, and is advertised to reformat
paragraphs on the way out to the Internet if the user didn't insert
newlines at appropriate intervals. I don't remember there being a way of
turning it off (it's been some weeks since I used it) but it really doesn't
sound like Avik's fault.
--
David Brooks, QA Manager, Desktop Engineering dbr...@opengroup.org
The Open Group <URL:http://www.opengroup.org/~dbrooks/>
Commit planned giving and daily acts of compassion.
av...@aol.com
In article <5g9efm$q...@light.lightlink.com>, schi...@lightlink.com (Eric Schissel) writes:
i fully agree with your remark.(see below)
>Your statement shows ignorance.
>-Eric Schissel
i use wordstar2000 or microsoft word.
avik-gms
Ronald Onerheim
> "We have reached the point where a disturbed man who can barely play the
> piano is suddenly the hottest person in classical
> music," said the Washington Post after Helfgott's American debut in
> Boston last week.
>
snip
> But Woodward, portrayed in the film as Helfgott's great childhood rival,
> said the pianist should be thanked for attracting new
> fans to the music.
>
snip
> Helfgott's recording of Rachmaninoff's Third Piano Concerto has been the
> hottest-selling classical music album in the United
> States, even though critics said it was erratic.
>
> Reuters/Variety
>
I recently had the experience of listening to Helfgott, "blinded" (like we say
in medical research). I walked into my office to hear a Rachmaninoff prelude
being broadcast by CBC. I was literally dumbfounded by
the stilted playing, with mechanical phrasing, and a subtle, odd lack of "flow".
I couldn't understand what this recording was doing being broadcast on a program
that only plays commercial recordings. Then I found out it was David Helfgott,
and I thought "that explains it".
We are all touched by the story of his struggle. He, however, remains handicapped
by his schizophrenia. I doubt, no matter what his innate talents, that he will be able
to communicate the gammut of human emotions, because he himself is not capable
of them. His disease, and treatment robs him of this. For that reason, I find it all the more
touching.
The real question here involves whether or not we should listen to Helfgott as a "phenomenon",
or as a pianist, on the same footing with all others. If it is the latter, than he must be
judged no differently, and will suffer greatly for it. If it is the former, which it should be, he
can remain the object of admiration, and can continue to touch us for his courage. I will
gladly listen to Helfgott "un-blinded" with the knowledge of his story, and find the experience
quite wonderful.
Ron
Andrys D Basten
In article <5ga273$c...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>,
Ronald Onerheim <oner...@medcor.mcgill> wrote:
Hi, your margins wrap oddly with only a couple of words on every other
line.
I've adjusted the parts I'm quoting.
> I recently had the experience of listening to Helfgott, "blinded" (like
> we say in medical research). I walked into my office to hear a
> Rachmaninoff prelude being broadcast by CBC. I was literally
> dumbfounded by the stilted playing, with mechanical phrasing, and a
> subtle, odd lack of "flow". I couldn't understand what this recording
> was doing being broadcast on a program that only plays commercial
> recordings. Then I found out it was David Helfgott, and I thought
> "that explains it".
> We are all touched by the story of his struggle.
I don't think so. Many of us are, though.
> He, however, remains handicapped by his schizophrenia. I doubt, no
> matter what his innate talents, that he will be able to communicate the
> gammut of human emotions, because he himself is not capable of them.
> ?His disease, and treatment robs him of this. For that reason, I find
> it all the more touching.
Yes, others have wondered, too, how he would sound with a lower dose
of whatever he's taking. Might not be able to play though.
> The real question here involves whether or not we should listen to
> Helfgott as a "phenomenon", or as a pianist, on the same footing with
> all others. If it is the latter, than he must be judged no
> differently, and will suffer greatly for it. If it is the former,
> which it should be, he can remain the object of admiration, and can
> continue to touch us for his courage. I will gladly listen to Helfgott
> "un-blinded" with the knowledge of his story, and find the experience
> quite wonderful.
> Ron
Generous statement, with eyes un-blinded. I think that's the key --
the expectations that have been brought to this. Some, who've
concentrated on the person behind that story (whatever is that person
who plays in these concerts for the appreciative audiences), are happy
to go listen (and to pay rather high prices). Others who expected (due
to his own film's webpage and the really outlandish and irresponsible
CD notes) a good pianist will feel a con-job was done.
But we haven't heard complaints from the concerts' audiences, who seem
to know what they were getting (or couldn't tell anyway and just
enjoyed it).
A lot worse has happened to the world and I enjoyed your perspective
on this.
- A
Jeremy Berman
>
>In article <5ga273$c...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>,
>Ronald Onerheim <oner...@medcor.mcgill> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I recently had the experience of listening to Helfgott, "blinded"
(like
> > we say in medical research).
> > We are all touched by the story of his struggle.
>
>
He however, remains handicapped by his schizophrenia. I doubt, no
> > matter what his innate talents, that he will be able to communicate
the
> > gammut of human emotions, because he himself is not capable of
them.
> > ?His disease, and treatment robs him of this. For that reason, I
find
> > it all the more touching.
>
>
> If it is the former,
> > which it should be, he can remain the object of admiration, and can
> > continue to touch us for his courage. I will gladly listen to
Helfgott
> > "un-blinded" with the knowledge of his story, and find the
experience
> > quite wonderful.
Jeremy writes: That's quite a sensitive reaction to Helfgott. But, I
have the following response. I think whether people enjoyed Helfgott's
concerts is not important in the least. If Helfgott garners a greater
interest in classical music is of little import too. What I'd like to
know is whether people are so touched by Helfgott's plight that it
creates a greater understanding and respect for people with emotional
problems. Mr. Helfgott is a very lucky man. And I'm not talking about
his overcoming his emotional problems to the extent that he's out of an
institution. I'm not talking about the fact he's married. I have a
close friend who aspired at one time to be a flutist or a conductor.
She's a brilliant woman. Her grades in her first term in college were
excellent. Then in the middle of her second term she was diagnosed as
being manic depressive. Because of a combination of her medication, a
basic low self-esteem and lack of support from her parents and few
friends, she may never get the chance Helfgott has, and she may have
more talent than he does. Her professors didn't treat her any
differently after her problem first arose, and most of the world won't
either. When it comes to anyone except close friends and people with
celebrity status, those who are emotionally troubled don't get the kind
of treatment Helfgott is getting. If they did, their plight might be
lessened. So for all who were touched by Helfgott's story. Good for
you. But, I think if the audience members who applauded wildly and
those who did in the privacy of their listening room want to REALLY
show their sensitivity to his plight, they should volunteer at mental
institutions and do whatever they can to help those who will never have
movies made about them, but who are just as deserving as Mr. Helfgott.
----Jeremy
>
>
> > Ron
>
> Generous statement, with eyes un-blinded. I think that's the key --
>the expectations that have been brought to this. Some, who've
>concentrated on the person behind that story (whatever is that person
>who plays in these concerts for the appreciative audiences), are happy
>to go listen (and to pay rather high prices). Others who expected
(due
>to his own film's webpage and the really outlandish and irresponsible
>CD notes) a good pianist will feel a con-job was done.
>
> But we haven't heard complaints from the concerts' audiences, who
seem
>to know what they were getting (or couldn't tell anyway and just
>enjoyed it).
>
> A lot worse has happened to the world and I enjoyed your perspective
>on this.
>
> - A
>
>
>--
>
,----------------------------------------------------------------------
-,
> | Andrys Basten <and...@netcom.com> | Certified Netware Engineer
|
> | Have Early Music, Will Travel | Basten Micro Consulting
|
> | Harpsichord, recorders | Berkeley/SF, CA
510-235-3861 |
>
+----------------------------------------------------------------------
-+
Pam Goodall
From Mike Willis
I must admit that there is something worrying in all of this and it is,
more or less, that your average often hard working and sometimes very
fine pianist, conductor or orchestra, gets less notice and attention
than the occasional sensation, good, bad or whatever, who may come and
go. For example, I listened some time ago to a number of very fine
performances by the Seattle SO under Schwartz of American music and
marvelled at their patent sincerity, style, convinction and - well,
just about everything. Yet they will pass by with a few good reviews,
a few sales, but their solid, fundamental and basically excellent
musicianship will go for nothing compared to the latest sensation from
elsewhere. I guess sometimes I feel that there are just a lot of very
fine musicans out there who actually do not get the recognition they
deserve because they are basically simply producing the goods - quality,
sound, excellent performances. In the rush of reissues of famous
conductors and musicians from yesteryear (of which I am an addict, I
admit) I wonder whether today's musicians are sometimes given less than
their fair share of attention - unless they have a sensational angle.
The latest sensation, scandel or big issue in music may not lead to any
long term value. Give me some of the fine work coming out of so many
America, European or whatever orchestras these days and let the latest
sensation compete against them in an unbiased way!
Mike W
Colin Rosenthal
I admit that I haven't heard Helfgott play or seen the movie. However,
from what I've read, I can't help wondering how much better it would
have been if someone had made a movie about John Ogden instead. Now
there was a very disturbed but very great pianist. Between his mental
problems, his music, and his relationship with his wife there would be
plenty of material for a great movie.
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
Ward Hardman
Peter Chang (k0c...@tamaix.tamu.edu) wrote:
: Wednesday March 12 11:30 AM EST
: Australian Virtuoso Defends Tarnished 'Shine' Hero
: CANBERRA, Australia (Reuter) - Australia's most respected pianist sprang
: to the defense of "Shine" hero David Helfgott
: Wednesday after U.S. critics slammed the pianist for erratic
: performances during a sell-out North American tour.
: "He's the last person in this entire profession, perhaps, who's not
: bitchy, or smart, or trying to take advantage of somebody
^^^^^
?????
: else's career," pianist Roger Woodward said.
Is "smart" a pejorative Down Under?
Caius Marcius
Have you heard about the upcoming Helfgott sitcom? They're going to
call it "Third Rach from the Sun".
- CMC
"The lowest form of humor", said Tom pungently......
Steve Ginsberg
In article , av...@aol.com says...
Dear Author of The Above Paragraph,
I don't know about you.However, I am waiting for the
Kurt Leimer piano concerto to become all the rage.
Steve Ginsberg
Robert Silverman
Roger Woodward is to be applauded for generously coming to the defense
of his colleague and fellow-countryman David Helfgott. I am deeply
troubled, however, by his assertion that the Shine phenomenon is good
for classical music. Two points to ponder:
a) As far as I know, no previous film featuring classical music has had
such a beneficial effect. Undoubtedly, sales of K. 467 picked up after
Elvira Madigan, but did interest in the other 22 Mozart solo piano
concerti correspondingly increase? Was there any lasting palpable
expansion of interest in Mahler symphonies other than No. 5, after Death
in Venice?
b) More seriously, how can such excruciating performances be beneficial
in any way to the field of classical music? It is ironic that so many
newcomers to this art are getting their first taste of Rachmaninoff's
third concerto via a substandard interpretation, when so many wonderful
recorded performances already exist. Do you think ANYONE who buys the
Helfgott CD will say "Well, I did the right thing; I supported a
severely damaged individual's triumph over adversity. Now, I'm going to
buy one of the great recordings of this piece so I can hear the
difference between the two." Yeah, sure.
Doctor Gonzo
Robert Silverman <rob...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>Roger Woodward is to be applauded for generously coming to the defense
>of his colleague and fellow-countryman David Helfgott. I am deeply
>troubled, however, by his assertion that the Shine phenomenon is good
>for classical music. Two points to ponder:
>a) As far as I know, no previous film featuring classical music has had
>such a beneficial effect. Undoubtedly, sales of K. 467 picked up after
>Elvira Madigan, but did interest in the other 22 Mozart solo piano
>concerti correspondingly increase? Was there any lasting palpable
>expansion of interest in Mahler symphonies other than No. 5, after Death
>in Venice?
According to a friend who was a former classical buyer (and eventually
a regional exec) for Sam Goody, the answer on both counts is an
unqualified YES! I find it peculiar that you failed to mention
Amadeus, which had a huge impact not merely on interest in Mozart but
classical music in general.
>b) More seriously, how can such excruciating performances be beneficial
>in any way to the field of classical music?
I got my start buying mostly inferior performances on budget LP a few
decades ago. With time, my tastes expanded, my sophistication and
understanding of performances increased, and my love for classical
music exploded. I, and many others, owe our love of classical music
to second-rate recordings, regional performers, and other
less-than-perfect interpretations! In some ways, it may be BETTER to
start with the sub-first-rate in that it gives you the opportunity to
LEARN TO LISTEN!
>It is ironic that so many
>newcomers to this art are getting their first taste of Rachmaninoff's
>third concerto via a substandard interpretation, when so many wonderful
>recorded performances already exist. Do you think ANYONE who buys the
>Helfgott CD will say "Well, I did the right thing; I supported a
>severely damaged individual's triumph over adversity. Now, I'm going to
>buy one of the great recordings of this piece so I can hear the
>difference between the two." Yeah, sure.
DOES IT REALLY MATTER? Most of these people are getting their _first_
taste of classical music through Helfgott --- next time they go
shopping, they may end up with Argerich's Tchaik 1, Kissin's Chopin
Concertos, Brendel's Beethoven... or any number of oter fine
recordings.
You may not be aware (or are ignoring the fact) that there has been a
spillover effect into other recordings. Rachmaninoff 3s featuring
Argerich and Horowitz are back on the Billboard extended charts ---
the ones that get faxed to record buyers and label honchos.
Too many of the perfectionists whine about Helfgott. Fact is,
Woodward's on the money --- this helps classical music long term, and
in a bigger way than anything since the Three Tenors. Ratty playing
or no, Helfgott's a hero for piano music and classical music in
general. Too bad the Dyers and Pages of the world just don't get it.
The Doc
Check out a mind-bending "separated at birth?" discovery at
http://www.pipeline.com/~drgonzo/sab/sab.htm
Robert Silverman
Doctor Gonzo wrote:
>
> Too many of the perfectionists whine about Helfgott. Fact is,
> Woodward's on the money --- this helps classical music long term, and
> in a bigger way than anything since the Three Tenors.
If you think the 3 Tenors are helping the cause of classical music, I
guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. That's what makes
life interesting, I guess. Anyone interested in the subject should read
Norman Lebrecht's admittedly once-sided but still fascinating "When the
Music Stops: Managers, Maestros, and the Corporate Murder of Cla$$ical
(sic) Music."
RS
--
Doctor Gonzo
Robert Silverman <rob...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>Doctor Gonzo wrote:
>>
>
>> Too many of the perfectionists whine about Helfgott. Fact is,
>> Woodward's on the money --- this helps classical music long term, and
>> in a bigger way than anything since the Three Tenors.
>If you think the 3 Tenors are helping the cause of classical music, I
>guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Since the Three Tenors phenomenon, live opera attendance is up in the
US, and sales of prerecorded opera/vocal as a percentage of classical
is significantly up.
>That's what makes
>life interesting, I guess. Anyone interested in the subject should read
>Norman Lebrecht's admittedly once-sided but still fascinating "When the
>Music Stops: Managers, Maestros, and the Corporate Murder of Cla$$ical
>(sic) Music."
A great read, though very one-sided in its reportage and conclusions.
Michael Glover
In article <5gc72s$t...@ncar.ucar.edu>, rose...@asp.hao.ucar.edu says...
>
>
>I admit that I haven't heard Helfgott play or seen the movie. However,
>from what I've read, I can't help wondering how much better it would
>have been if someone had made a movie about John Ogden instead. Now
>there was a very disturbed but very great pianist. Between his mental
>problems, his music, and his relationship with his wife there would be
>plenty of material for a great movie.
>
As you may know, the BBC produced a television film adapted from Brenda
Ogdon's ghost-written biography "Virtuoso" in 1989, starring Alfred Molina as
John and Allison Steadman as Brenda. Predictably, Brenda Ogdon did not like
the way she was portrayed in the film and only dropped her threat of legal
action (alleging something like mallicious falsehood) against the BBC around
five years after the film had been broadcast. A play also adapted from the
book - and made this time with Brenda's blessing - opened in Ipswich in
1996...and closed again very quickly indeed after dreadful notices. Given
this history, a Hollywood movie would appear unlikely (and probably
undesirable - perhaps "John Ogdon - The Breakdown" has been told rather too
frequently).
MG
Ward Hardman
Robert Silverman (rob...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: Doctor Gonzo wrote:
: >
:
: > Too many of the perfectionists whine about Helfgott. Fact is,
: > Woodward's on the money --- this helps classical music long term, and
: > in a bigger way than anything since the Three Tenors.
: If you think the 3 Tenors are helping the cause of classical music, I
: guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. That's what makes
: life interesting, I guess. Anyone interested in the subject should read
: Norman Lebrecht's admittedly once-sided but still fascinating "When the
: Music Stops: Managers, Maestros, and the Corporate Murder of Cla$$ical
: (sic) Music."
At least the dollars spent on the Three Tenors CDs aren't going to heavy-
metal rock bands! On the other hand, the recording industry executives
are probably all getting the bright idea "Hey, classical trash SELLS!"
The hope is that when the consumer whose only classical recording is the
3Ts goes back for *another* classical CD to stand alongside the only one
in his collection, he will latch onto something really worthwhile.
This could be a way to get the clientele hooked, as they say in the drug
trade.
The worst case scenario is that the neophyte 3T fan, gets the Helfgott
Rock3 (notice how the number "3" keeps recurring?) as his/her followup
classical album. Then we must rely on the melodic powers of Rachmaninoff
to overcome the soggy performance and stimulate a desire for "more of
this classical stuff."
[As an aside, my parody/satire on the Helfgott/Shine phenomena is
contained in the "'Shun' pianist's rave reviews" thread in this
newsgroup.]
Robert Silverman
Ward Hardman wrote:
> At least the dollars spent on the Three Tenors CDs aren't going to heavy-
> metal rock bands!
That is true. There is at least a shred of honesty in the 3T phenomenon,
in that those who bought a ticket had to know a) they were going to see
three specks a mile away, and b) hear them sing through a PA system. But
for all those disadvantages, they were also going to be in the presence
of three very great artists (or at least people who had been that for
much of their careers).
Still, the New Year's Eve 3T concert in Vancouver resulted in the local
promotor going broke, with many other sub-contracted firms close to
bankrupcy as well, while Rudas, Levine, and the 3Ts walked away with
millions. That this occurred in a city whose orchestra members are
amongst the worst-paid in North America (for orchestras in their class),
I for one find troublesome.
Classical music has always had its superstars, and always will. But it
seems to me that phenomena such as the 3T and Shine are feeding off the
system, not contributing to it.
> [As an aside, my parody/satire on the Helfgott/Shine phenomena is
> contained in the "'Shun' pianist's rave reviews" thread in this
> newsgroup.]
It's wonderful. Thanks.
s...@signature.below.a
In article <332C32...@unixg.ubc.ca>, rob...@unixg.ubc.ca wrote:
>Ward Hardman wrote:
>
>> At least the dollars spent on the Three Tenors CDs aren't going to heavy-
>> metal rock bands!
>
>That is true. There is at least a shred of honesty in the 3T phenomenon,
>in that those who bought a ticket had to know a) they were going to see
>three specks a mile away, and b) hear them sing through a PA system. But
>for all those disadvantages, they were also going to be in the presence
>of three very great artists (or at least people who had been that for
>much of their careers).
...in contrast to the the "3 Sopranos" where promoters dredged up three
people no one had ever heard of. Fortunately, that scam died pretty quickly.
We can make fun of the 3-T's for going for the bucks but there is no denying
that there were three people would were at the top of their business.
John
------------------------------------------------
Big Brother is watching and keeping track of what
you post. I have removed my personal information
from the header and moved it here.
EMail Address:
|miano @ |
|worldnet . |
| att . net |
Full Name:
------------
-John?Miano-
------------
James C.S. Liu
On Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:58:49 -0800, Robert Silverman
<rob...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>Roger Woodward is to be applauded for generously coming to the defense
>of his colleague and fellow-countryman David Helfgott. I am deeply
>troubled, however, by his assertion that the Shine phenomenon is good
>for classical music. Two points to ponder:
>
>a) As far as I know, no previous film featuring classical music has had
>such a beneficial effect. Undoubtedly, sales of K. 467 picked up after
>Elvira Madigan, but did interest in the other 22 Mozart solo piano
>concerti correspondingly increase? Was there any lasting palpable
>expansion of interest in Mahler symphonies other than No. 5, after Death
>in Venice?
I think there would be general acknowledgment that _Amadeus_ helped
to spread Mozart's general popularity, though it, like _Shine_ suffers
from the tendency of moviegoers to confuse cinematic story with
biography.
Me, I can say with little personal shame that I was pulled into
classical music slowly, in bits and pieces. And while I would not
cite a specific film that inspired me to go and comp the classical
radio station in college, I can say that a number of things featuring
classical music did not hurt. Specific examples are the various
classical bits on _Sesame Street_ (they now have one with the Tokyo
Quartet playing the first bars of the finale of Beethoven's Op. 59/3
to illustrate the concept of the number 4); assorted Warner Brothers
cartoons; Walt Disney's _Fantasia_; PBS's _Evening at Pops_; _2001: A
Space Odyssey_; and yes, _Amadeus_. So I can't say that things how
would have turned out if any or all of them didn't have classical in
them, but I am glad that they did.
>b) More seriously, how can such excruciating performances be beneficial
>in any way to the field of classical music? It is ironic that so many
>newcomers to this art are getting their first taste of Rachmaninoff's
>third concerto via a substandard interpretation, when so many wonderful
>recorded performances already exist. Do you think ANYONE who buys the
>Helfgott CD will say "Well, I did the right thing; I supported a
>severely damaged individual's triumph over adversity. Now, I'm going to
>buy one of the great recordings of this piece so I can hear the
>difference between the two." Yeah, sure.
I personally have been having a hard time trying to decide this
issue in my own mind. One recent cinematic analogy is _Big Night_;
would you rather that people get exposed to Italian cuisine with a
heavenly timpano or with spaghetti and meatballs, with a side of
mashed potatoes? But I'm not sure that this analogy holds equal
weight with something like _Shine_ inducing people to buy classical
albums that they wouldn't have bought before. On the one hand, they
may be substandard performances.
On the other, one of the principal problems with bringing classical
music into most peoples' lives seems to be the difficulty simply in
geting the foot in the door. In this modern age of cut arts funding
and further-cut arts education funding, classical music gets the
stigmatic label of being difficult, unapproachable, etc. (And
obnoxious responses to newbie questions, which I'm guilty of posting
also, certainly don't help make classical music seem any more
approachable to those not intimately familiar with its terms.) So
that if a story, any story -- even if it be a free adaptation with
lousy second-rate performances -- gets people involved and interested,
even if a small percentage of them move on to more substantial music
and more interesting performances, that small percentage could be
counted as a victory in and of itself.
But as I said, I haven't settled this one in my own mind, one way
or the other. Meantime, I hope to keep avoiding the umpteenth repeat
of "Four Seasons" at Au Bon Pain ...
--
/James C.S. Liu |"Madness takes its toll.
jame...@yale.edu | Please have exact change."
New Haven, Connecticut | -- Robert Heinlein, _Time Enough for Love_
My opinions have nothing to do with my employer!
Andrew Clarke
Yes and no. Australian English moves ambivalently between British and
American usage, and let's remember that Woodward himself has lived in
London for a very long time.
"Smart" in British English means "attractive" or "well turned out"
rather than "intelligent" or "quick witted". When it *is* used in the
American sense it is pejorative expressions such as "smart-Alec" or
"smarty-boots" (meaning someone who makes a great show of brilliance or
shrewdness which is only skin-deep) or as in "Stop trying to be smart
and get down and do some work ... " (stop pretending to know more than
you really do). It's in this pejorative sense that Woodward is using the
word.
"Smart" in Australia can be used in both the American and the British
sense. It's further complicated by a residual streak of pragmatism and
anti-intellectualism, which is far from saying that there isn't an
Australian intelligentsia, as there most certainly is.
Andrew Clarke
s...@signature.below.c
In article <1997Mar20....@nosc.mil>, sam...@nosc.mil (Charles H. Sampson) wrote:
> Turn the question around: Has anyone been driven away from classi-
>cal music by the lousy performances? (I'm accepting the common criti-
>cism here. I haven't seen the film yet.) I find it hard to believe
>that anyone who liked classical music before seeing the film would be
>driven away. It looks like the only possible loss would be a person who
>didn't like classical music before, who might have grown to like it if
>he hadn't seen the film, but who was so turned off by what he saw in the
>film that he decided never to listen to classical music again. If there
>is such a person, would he have been turned off by the performances or
>the music itself?
I can report that when I was introduced to many pieces I was turned off
from them by bad performances I can remember hearding the Beethoven 6th
symphony for the first time played badly (by an orchestra that will remain
nameless) and for years Beethoven's 6th was a turn off for me. The same thing
happened with the Brahms 2nd. When I heard them for the first time my
impression was that they were bad pieces...not that the performances were
terrible. It took me years to figure out what the problem was.
Charles H. Sampson
> ...
>
>b) More seriously, how can such excruciating performances be beneficial
>in any way to the field of classical music? It is ironic that so many
>newcomers to this art are getting their first taste of Rachmaninoff's
>third concerto via a substandard interpretation, when so many wonderful
>recorded performances already exist. Do you think ANYONE who buys the
>Helfgott CD will say "Well, I did the right thing; I supported a
>severely damaged individual's triumph over adversity. Now, I'm going to
>buy one of the great recordings of this piece so I can hear the
>difference between the two." Yeah, sure.
>
>...
Turn the question around: Has anyone been driven away from classi-
cal music by the lousy performances? (I'm accepting the common criti-
cism here. I haven't seen the film yet.) I find it hard to believe
that anyone who liked classical music before seeing the film would be
driven away. It looks like the only possible loss would be a person who
didn't like classical music before, who might have grown to like it if
he hadn't seen the film, but who was so turned off by what he saw in the
film that he decided never to listen to classical music again. If there
is such a person, would he have been turned off by the performances or
the music itself?
In all, it looks like the interest in classical music engendered by
this film has to be positive, although maybe not significant.
Charlie
Steven Correll
In article <332AE3...@unixg.ubc.ca>,
Robert Silverman <rob...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>b) More seriously, how can such excruciating performances be beneficial
>in any way to the field of classical music?
I made my acquaintance with Beethoven when my junior high school band
played a transcription of "Egmont", which was doubtless an excruciating
performance. I remember tootling away on my bassoon, doubled by a
euphonium so my notes wouldn't get lost in the din. Nevertheless,
I was so inspired that I rushed to the library to borrow a recording;
on that, I encountered another overture called "Fidelio" which I liked;
then I discovered there was an opera associated with it; and the rest
is (for me) history. If "Shine" represents deception of the public by
marketers, that's certainly evil; but there's some reason to hope the
music will prevail over the duplicity nonetheless.
--
Steven Correll == PO Box 66625, Scotts Valley, CA 95067 == s...@netcom.com
Manoa Friedson
>
> Msg-ID: <1997Mar20....@nosc.mil>
> References: <332AE3...@unixg.ubc.ca>
> Posted: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:08:03 GMT
>
> Org. : Computer Sciences Corporation
> >newcomers to this art are getting their first taste of Rachmaninoff's
> >third concerto via a substandard interpretation, when so many wonderful
> >recorded performances already exist. Do you think ANYONE who buys the
> >Helfgott CD will say "Well, I did the right thing; I supported a
> >severely damaged individual's triumph over adversity. Now, I'm going to
> >buy one of the great recordings of this piece so I can hear the
> >difference between the two." Yeah, sure.
> >
> >...
>
> Turn the question around: Has anyone been driven away from classi-
> cal music by the lousy performances? (I'm accepting the common criti-
> cism here. I haven't seen the film yet.) I find it hard to believe
> that anyone who liked classical music before seeing the film would be
> driven away. It looks like the only possible loss would be a person who
> didn't like classical music before, who might have grown to like it if
> he hadn't seen the film, but who was so turned off by what he saw in the
> film that he decided never to listen to classical music again. If there
> is such a person, would he have been turned off by the performances or
> the music itself?
>
> In all, it looks like the interest in classical music engendered by
> this film has to be positive, although maybe not significant.
>
> Charlie
Well.. I suppose I show my total ignorance and barbarianism here but I have
to say this just to show a different perspective on this question.
I have been a classical music lover since I was a toddler. Both my parents
listened mostly to classical music and since we lived in the country I had
little exposure to anything else until my teens, when we moved. However, I
did >not< like Rakhmaninov and found him way too flowery for my tastes.
Perhaps my tastes have changed significantly, but that is not all that
important. What >is< important is that when I saw "shine" I >really< enjoyed
the music in the film and whether you feel it is substandard or not doesn't
really matter. My friend who attended the film with me also really liked the
interpretation therin and so that, at least, is two votes for it. Who is to
say that there are not other people who really enjoyed this interpretation.
After all, it is rather subjective, is it not? What I may like, you may
hate, and I am glad that there is finally a version of Rakhmaninov's works
that I can enjoy. If everyone played every piece the same then there would
be no variety and no choice. I think it is very valuable that there is
finally a version of Rakhmaninov that I and others who may not have liked him
before, can now enjoy, and if you don't agree I think you are missing the
point of music. I don't think it does you or anyone else harm for these
"substandard interpretations" to exist. After all, if you don't like them,
you can just refuse to listen to them. It doesn't hurt anyone and may bring
many people pleasure.
I know that I am opening myself up terribly for some serious critism here
cause in general I have noticed that people on this newsgroup are totally
brutal and intolerant of anyone who holds an opinion different than theirs,
but I really felt that I just had to say something in response to these
attacks and in defence of something that has opened me to actually purchasing
a Rakhmaninov CD whereas before I would never have considered it.
--
There is a great force working to make humanity radical and creative. Use
this force to your advantage. Beware of conformity, of great big walls of
concrete, of barbed wire fences, of people who try to sell you strange
substances in the airport, of axe fiends in the subway (unless they are
intriguing) and other things. May your life bristle with intrigue
Dan Stevenson
manoa@mindlink.
Will Simmons
[SNIP]
>b) More seriously, how can such excruciating performances be beneficial
>in any way to the field of classical music? It is ironic that so many
>newcomers to this art are getting their first taste of Rachmaninoff's
>third concerto via a substandard interpretation, when so many wonderful
>recorded performances already exist. Do you think ANYONE who buys the
>Helfgott CD will say "Well, I did the right thing; I supported a
>severely damaged individual's triumph over adversity. Now, I'm going to
>buy one of the great recordings of this piece so I can hear the
>difference between the two." Yeah, sure.
The poster perhaps underestimates the enemy. It has been my experience
trying to interest young people in classical music and, if possible, in
learning to play an instrument that, having reached adulthood without
hearing such music, all the while inundated day and night by nursery-level
Pablum pumped at them at magnified decibels via TV and radio and even by
offices, factories and elevators, most folks are unable to hear few
measures of complex music as other than an impenetrable jumble of
unfamiliar sound.
In addition, they have long since absorbed the societal sub-text that
classical music is "snooty" and not for "normal working folks, " which
reinforces their dismay and feelings that they can never learn what
classical music is about.
It is thus a mighty victory if, because of the movie, one in twenty people
who see Shine takes any kind of action favorable to classical music,
whether by switching to the local classical radio station for a "look see,"
or purchasing a classical recoding of any sort or by buying a single
concert ticket. In each such instance, the awesome cultural forces,
apparently endemic to modern industrial, technical societies, that are
arrayed against thought and beauty will have been slowed a smidgen.
At the least, that may help give us time to think of what might be done to
turn things around. Beggars cannot be choosers and that's what we are.
-- Will --
--
Nntp-Posting-Host: world.std.com
Newsgroups: poster
Path: user
From: wsim...@world.std.com (Will Simmons)
Marko Velikonja
Speaking of Roger Woodward, has HIS career gotten any boost from Shine?
In the film he was virtually cast as the villain who took away the
career Helfgott should have had, or who at least got the prize when
those philistine judges didn't "understand" the genius of the young
Helfgott. Must admit I'd never heard of him before the film, but from
what I've read elsewhere, he seems to be a great new-music champion and
somebody with a pretty respectable career.
Marko Velikonja
Kenneth Olson
>The poster perhaps underestimates the enemy. It has been my experience
>trying to interest young people in classical music and, if possible, in
>learning to play an instrument that, having reached adulthood without
>hearing such music, all the while inundated day and night by nursery-level
>Pablum pumped at them at magnified decibels via TV and radio and even by
>offices, factories and elevators, most folks are unable to hear few
>measures of complex music as other than an impenetrable jumble of
>unfamiliar sound.
>
>In addition, they have long since absorbed the societal sub-text that
>classical music is "snooty" and not for "normal working folks, " which
>reinforces their dismay and feelings that they can never learn what
>classical music is about.
>
>It is thus a mighty victory if, because of the movie, one in twenty people
>who see Shine takes any kind of action favorable to classical music,
>whether by switching to the local classical radio station for a "look see,"
>or purchasing a classical recoding of any sort or by buying a single
>concert ticket. In each such instance, the awesome cultural forces,
>apparently endemic to modern industrial, technical societies, that are
>arrayed against thought and beauty will have been slowed a smidgen.
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!! I agree totally.
Ken
a-...@signature.below.d
Still speaking of Roger Woodward, this afternoon it hit me that I had heard
him perform before. I heard his debut with the NY Philharmonic. I'm sure that
Mr. Woodward does not regard this as one of his triumphs.
He was the soloist in a world premier of a piece for piano and orchestra by
Xenakis. Mr. Woodward must have balls, that's not something most people would
do for a debut. It was so horrible that it was the only time I have actually
seen booing at a concert. For once the audience had enough intelligence not to
give their usual polite applause after being fed a piece of garbage.
Mr. Woodward returned after the intermission to play a Bach piano concerto.
That too was a disaster. Things got so out of hand that Mr. Woodward stopped
in the middle to have a chat with the stick waver (Mehta).
Jeremy Berman
In <333998...@emerald.tufts.edu> Marko Velikonja
<mvel...@emerald.tufts.edu> writes:
>
>Speaking of Roger Woodward.... Must admit I'd never heard of him
before the film, but from
>what I've read elsewhere, he seems to be a great new-music champion
and
>somebody with a pretty respectable career.
>
recorded the complete Shostakovich Preludes & Fugues for RCA in the mid
to late '70's. Perhaps others on this newsgroup have more info about
him.
M.P.McCaffrey
While I technically agree with your sentiments, my own experience differs
to the extent that I had taken a 20 year hiatus from classical music (
simultaneous with puberty ) and joined the ranks of the rockers and rollers
of my generation. When I saw " Amadeus " I was reminded of the pleasure
derived from this genre, and switched my main interest, never to return.
Apparent maturity had given me an appreciation far beyond that of a youth
for his " father's music ", and given me the last 8 years of immeasureable
pleasure. Thank you for your patience,
M.P.McCaffrey
Georg Tintner
a-...@signature.below.d wrote:
: In article <333998...@emerald.tufts.edu>, Marko Velikonja <mvel...@emerald.tufts.edu> wrote:
: >Speaking of Roger Woodward, has HIS career gotten any boost from Shine?
: >In the film he was virtually cast as the villain who took away the
: >career Helfgott should have had, or who at least got the prize when
: >those philistine judges didn't "understand" the genius of the young
: >what I've read elsewhere, he seems to be a great new-music champion and
: >somebody with a pretty respectable career.
[snip]
: He was the soloist in a world premier of a piece for piano and orchestra by
: Xenakis. Mr. Woodward must have balls, that's not something most people would
[snip]
The piece was Keqrops, and AFAIK was not a world premiere. Just on a point
of clarification, Roger did "beat" David Helfgott in that competition, but
the difference was half a point, and the judge was Andre Cluytens, no
fool.
Roger went from athere to stufy in Poland, and is indeed a great Chopin
pianist, as he is a great Beethoven pianist. He lives in London but
concertises in Europe and Australia; he also runs the Spring Festival of
new music in Sydney, Australia, which he founded, and which turns a profit
with no government funding whatsoever.
Roger at his best is a genius, and I do not say that lightly. I also do
not say lightly that - at his best - there is no greater Chopin pianist
alive today; his Beethoven is also remarkable.
The Shostakovich is being considered for reisuue on CD. He has made many
contemporary music recordings, mainly on Etcetera, and also made many
recordings in Australia for ABC Records and Warner Music; Scriabin,
Rachmaninov, Debussy, Prokofiev. His records don't do him real justice,
however; one should go to his concerts. Despite the NY concert described
above, they are generally wonderful - viscerally exciting, and with a
wonderful audience rapport.
Tanya Tintner
a-...@signature.below.d
In article <5hdum9$o...@News.Dal.Ca>, gtin...@is.dal.ca (Georg Tintner) wrote:
>The piece was Keqrops, and AFAIK was not a world premiere.
The NY Philharmonic Program for Thursday Novemeber 13, 1986 claims it was. :-)
Commissioned for Roger Woodward and the New York Philharmonic by Phynea and
Peter Paroulakis.
>The Shostakovich is being considered for reisuue on CD. He has made many
>contemporary music recordings, mainly on Etcetera, and also made many
>recordings in Australia for ABC Records and Warner Music; Scriabin,
>Rachmaninov, Debussy, Prokofiev. His records don't do him real justice,
>however; one should go to his concerts. Despite the NY concert described
>above, they are generally wonderful - viscerally exciting, and with a
>wonderful audience rapport.
Just for clarification, this was just one of those concerts where everything
seemed to go wrong.
Rasmus Storjohann
On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Kenneth Olson wrote:
>
> >It is thus a mighty victory if, because of the movie, one in twenty people
> >who see Shine takes any kind of action favorable to classical music,
> >whether by switching to the local classical radio station for a "look see,"
> >or purchasing a classical recoding of any sort or by buying a single
> >concert ticket. In each such instance, the awesome cultural forces,
> >apparently endemic to modern industrial, technical societies, that are
> >arrayed against thought and beauty will have been slowed a smidgen.
>
It's the same argument used about Schindler's List. Shitty movie, but
it's important because so many ignorant people will see it and be cured
of their ignorance. That may be true, but it doesn't make the movie any
better (or worse). BTW I haven't seen Shine, but I don't need to see a
movie to apreciate calssical music!
__ Rasmus Storjohann
/ /\ Institute of Molecular Biology
/ / \ and Biochemistry
/ / /\ \ Simon Fraser University
/ / /\ \ \ Burnaby, British Columbia V5A 1S6
/ /_/__\ \ \ e-mail: rsto...@sfu.ca
/________\ \ \ Phone: (604) 436-5025
\___________\/ FAX: (604) 291-3765
a-...@signature.below.d
In article <Pine.SGI.3.91.970327143121.7457C-100000@beaufort>, Rasmus Storjohann <rsto...@sfu.ca> wrote:
>It's the same argument used about Schindler's List. Shitty movie, but
>it's important because so many ignorant people will see it and be cured
>of their ignorance. That may be true, but it doesn't make the movie any
>better (or worse). BTW I haven't seen Shine, but I don't need to see a
>movie to apreciate calssical music!
I doubt many ignorant people were cured by "Schindler's List".