Modern music and modern art
Zita Skořepová
music is comparable to the modern art. The popular, for ex. rock music, or
the modern cacofonic serious music?
---
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Scott GF Bailey
Zita Skořepová <guma...@volny.cz> wrote in message
news:aevnvu$279g$1...@news.vol.cz...
> I am thinking about the modern music and modern art and I am asking,
which
> music is comparable to the modern art. The popular, for ex. rock
music, or
> the modern cacofonic serious music?
>
>
The modern cacaphonous pop music.
evan johnson
<guma...@volny.cz> wrote:
>I am thinking about the modern music and modern art and I am asking, which
>music is comparable to the modern art. The popular, for ex. rock music, or
>the modern cacofonic serious music?
Well, there are many different modern visual arts and there are many
different modern musics. The most often cited parallels I can think
of are between Kandinsky and Schoenberg (no longer modern, of course),
between Rothko and members of the 1950s New York School (primarily
Morton Feldman), and maybe between Piet Mondrian and Louis Andriessen.
evan
Randy Poe
>
> I am thinking about the modern music and modern art and I am asking, which
> music is comparable to the modern art. The popular, for ex. rock music, or
> the modern cacofonic serious music?
>
Rock music up till recently has been very traditional in its chord
structure and tonalism. I don't know (or like) hip-hop or rap enough
to say much except that my sense is it's still traditional modalism
but with a much stronger emphasis on rhythmic over melodic elements,
especially polyrhythms. (One Beastie Boys, er, song, I was subjected
to a lot about 2-3 years ago due to having teenagers started to grow on
me as I became fascinated with the build up of the rhythmic layers and
the way they interplayed.)
I'd vote for avant-garde music, especially minimalist music, being
analogous to minimalist painting. Cubism? Who knows? And I don't know
what to say about "art" that consists of cigarette butts or garbage.
Re hip-hop/rap: Has anyone else ever heard something that sounded
like quarter tones or microtones in popular music? I could have
sworn there was a quartertone in a song by "Eve" that was popular about
a year ago, but then apparently the "mix" that was playing on
the radio changed and I stopped hearing it (yes, I still have
teenagers and I still end up driving around a lot with this stuff
in my ears).
- Randy
Abelard2
>Zita Skořepová <guma...@volny.cz> wrote in message
>news:aevnvu$279g$1...@news.vol.cz...
>> I am thinking about the modern music and modern art and I am asking,
>which
>> music is comparable to the modern art. The popular, for ex. rock
>music, or
>> the modern cacofonic serious music?
>>
>>
>
>The modern cacaphonous pop music.
Scott probably intended this facetiously, but I agree with him anyway.
Randy Poe rp...@atl.lmco.com writes:
>Rock music up till recently has been very traditional in its chord
>structure and tonalism.
Chord structure and tonalism are, in fact, superficial criteria. The important
thing about music, or art, is not the formal dimension, but, what does it say
about human beings and their relationship to the universe? And in that respect,
modernism and "pop" art, rock music and so forth, are more similar than they
are different.
abelard2
the Davidsbündler site
http://members.aol.com/abelard2/buendler.htm
Scott GF Bailey
Abelard2 <abel...@aol.comspamless> wrote in message
news:20020621153817...@mb-dh.aol.com...
> "Scott GF Bailey" scottg...@msn.com:
>
> >Zita Skořepová <guma...@volny.cz> wrote in message
> >news:aevnvu$279g$1...@news.vol.cz...
> >> I am thinking about the modern music and modern art and I am
asking,
> >which
> >> music is comparable to the modern art. The popular, for ex. rock
> >music, or
> >> the modern cacofonic serious music?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >The modern cacaphonous pop music.
>
> Scott probably intended this facetiously
Only partially; see my comments below.
> but I agree with him anyway.
>
> Randy Poe rp...@atl.lmco.com writes:
>
> >Rock music up till recently has been very traditional in its chord
> >structure and tonalism.
>
> Chord structure and tonalism are, in fact, superficial criteria. The
important
> thing about music, or art, is not the formal dimension, but, what
does it say
> about human beings and their relationship to the universe? And in
that respect,
> modernism and "pop" art, rock music and so forth, are more similar
than they
> are different.
>
It seems that the bulk of visual artists I know or with whom I am
familiar are using thematic materials/images which closely parallel
pop culture. Young, new artists do seem to not have "liberal arts
educations"; most of them got their MFAs from art academies like the
Cornish School or what have you. So their references are from, and
their art is informed by, in the greatest part, popular culture.
Abelard2 and I are agreeing? My word.
Samuel Vriezen
wrote:
>and maybe between Piet Mondrian and Louis Andriessen.
Louis just takes whatever cultural links he needs to get started on a
piece. De Materie includes Mondrian, Bach, 17th century science,
shipwrighting, disco, a mediaeval mystic and his father. Vermeer is
about Vermeer. He worked with many people throughout the arts; one
notable figure in visual arts would probably be Marijke van Warmerdam.
I think Feldman had a more fundamental Mondrian interest than Louis.
--
Samuel
http://concerten.free.fr/home.html
Have you actually got anything to say with the orchestra, or is your ego
just wanting to make a big noise?
- Frederic Rzewski quoted in The Wire #220
Samuel Vriezen
<guma...@volny.cz> wrote:
>I am thinking about the modern music and modern art and I am asking, which
>music is comparable to the modern art. The popular, for ex. rock music, or
>the modern cacofonic serious music?
People often talk about 'high art' and 'low art' (or popular art). For
music, this distinction would mean, after the necessary overdose of
simplification, classical music and pop music. For visual art you
could think of what you find in a modern art museum vs. well...
fashion or advertising photography, graffiti, comics, or stuff such as
fantasy art, ...
Also, in all fields there is a lot of people who make a point of
relativizing this distinction between high and low art.
Samuel Vriezen
wrote:
>I'd vote for avant-garde music, especially minimalist music, being
>analogous to minimalist painting.
A funny thing I think is that minimal music has become increasingly
poppy and minimal art has remained rather high-brow stuff.
>Cubism? Who knows?
Stravinsky.
>And I don't know
>what to say about "art" that consists of cigarette butts or garbage.
Cage and beyond. Lots of people are using found objects of sound and
making collages of these. It was I think also part of the Japanese
noise esthetic, for example.
>Re hip-hop/rap: Has anyone else ever heard something that sounded
>like quarter tones or microtones in popular music?
Yes, increasingly so in the popular music of immigrants from Turkey
and Marocco. Also a lot of rock music is so out of tune... finally,
great jazz performers almost never play the notes on the piano (except
when they're pianists of course).
Steven Van Impe
"Samuel Vriezen" <sqv.remo...@xs4all.nl> schreef in bericht
news:3d13b6b...@news.xs4all.nl...
> >I'd vote for avant-garde music, especially minimalist music, being
> >analogous to minimalist painting.
> A funny thing I think is that minimal music has become increasingly
> poppy and minimal art has remained rather high-brow stuff.
Both minimalist music and art seem to have been incorporated in the
high-brow advertising business (cars, perfume, fashion etc).
Steven
John Harrington
svan...@antwerpen.NOSPAM.be wrote on 6/21/02 6:17 PM:
"high-brow advertising business". Now there's a phrase to stand along side
military intelligence, compassionate conservatism, and jumbo shrimp.
J
Colin Broom
"John Harrington" <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B939A154.3A6%bear...@earthlink.net...
> > Both minimalist music and art seem to have been incorporated in the
> > high-brow advertising business (cars, perfume, fashion etc).
>
> "high-brow advertising business". Now there's a phrase to stand along
side
> military intelligence, compassionate conservatism, and jumbo shrimp.
You took the words right out of my mouth. An oxymoron if ever there was
one.
Colin.
Tech Support: "I need you to boot the computer."
Customer: (THUMP! Pause.) "No, that didn't help."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
Colin Broom, composer
e-mail: colin.broom@Cb7#9strath.ac.uk
(To reply, omit the Cb7#9 chord from the e-mail address)
Invention Ensemble: www.inventionensemble.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
mike
i know what he means... it's an ad oriented towards people who don't think
in terms of survival. i design them. it's like a music oriented towards
people who can listen without needing to tap their toes.
mike
news:af1n9c$8ce$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk:
>
> "John Harrington" <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:B939A154.3A6%bear...@earthlink.net...
>
>> > Both minimalist music and art seem to have been incorporated in the
>> > high-brow advertising business (cars, perfume, fashion etc).
>>
>> "high-brow advertising business". Now there's a phrase to stand along
>> side military intelligence, compassionate conservatism, and jumbo
>> shrimp.
>
> You took the words right out of my mouth.
sounds like the two of you hadn't thought enough about it to generate many
words on the topic, so, if john pushed them aside for his own needs, then
that can't be a great moment in intellectual history. where did you learn
to say "oxymoron" by the way? in a high-brow ad?
> An oxymoron if ever there
> was one.
>
> Colin.
>
> Tech Support: "I need you to boot the computer."
> Customer: (THUMP! Pause.) "No, that didn't help."
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---- ----------------------------
Abelard2
>Abelard2 and I are agreeing? My word.
>
Great! So, permit me to press my luck.
The proposition that I would like to put forth, and hopefully irritate others
in a Socratic ("hush yo mouf'!") fashion, is the following: the common
denominator among genres such as hip--hop, cubism, serialism, abstract
expressionism, heavy metal, and so forth, is the emotion of rage.
So, I give you a topic. Discuss.
mike
news:20020622195335...@mb-mq.aol.com:
> "Scott GF Bailey" scottg...@msn.com:
>
> >Abelard2 and I are agreeing? My word.
>>
>
> Great! So, permit me to press my luck.
>
> The proposition that I would like to put forth, and hopefully irritate
> others in a Socratic ("hush yo mouf'!") fashion, is the following: the
> common denominator among genres such as hip--hop, cubism, serialism,
> abstract expressionism, heavy metal, and so forth, is the emotion of
> rage.
>
> So, I give you a topic. Discuss.
you're putting all your eggs in one "emotion is...", and now you've got
to make an omelette. what if music invented "emotion", and the gesture
towards making music... the thing that makes you write music... is an
pure intellectual need to sort out chaos? this may or may not be so, but
it makes as much sense as saying that as disparate a group of musics as
you list might have something beyond "attitude" as their generator:
"rage", for instance, which you haven't defined.
you make a big deal about rejecting "modern" music, but simple one move
games like this allow us to simply invert your concept and say
"rejections of hip-hop, cubism, etc. have as common denominator a lack of
hunger for music".
you understand that we're looking at you as a musical person, not as a
person too sensitive to live in the modern world.
Abelard2
>... the thing that makes you write music... is an
>pure intellectual need to sort out chaos? this may or may not be so, but
>it makes as much sense as saying that as disparate a group of musics as
>you list might have something beyond "attitude" as their generator:
>"rage", for instance, which you haven't defined.
Orangiemike, I often think I might need to consult a cryptographer before
responding to your posts. However: I wasn't talking about "attitude" as a
generator. I was talking about a common denominator, a thread that shows up in
all the aforementioned genres.
And, I don't think it should be necessary to define "rage". It is a common
emotion, which one should hope that we leave behind as we enter adulthood.
At the risk of offending orangiemike in particular, I would say that Picasso's
images of women suggest that he was enraged at women. They don't look very
lovable. Compare Rembrandt, who took every conceivable kind of person, the
elderly, children, Zeus disguised as a bull, rich folks, poor folks, and when
you look into their eyes, you see a soul that is beautiful. Rembrandt loved
people.
>you make a big deal about rejecting "modern" music,
I am just patiently waiting for the next Renaissance, or should I say, doing
what I can to hurry it along. They seem to often come as a reaction to
particularly pessimistic and decadent cultural phases (in those cases, where a
given civilization manages to survive a particularly pessimistic and decadent
cultural phase).
>you understand that we're looking at you as a musical person, not as a
>person too sensitive to live in the modern world.
Why, thank you, orangiemike, although I think of myself as a person too
thick-skinned and ornery to simply succumb to the modern world.
mike
news:20020623023223...@mb-fq.aol.com:
> orang...@aol.com:
>
>>... the thing that makes you write music... is an
>>pure intellectual need to sort out chaos? this may or may not be so,
>>but it makes as much sense as saying that as disparate a group of
>>musics as you list might have something beyond "attitude" as their
>>generator: "rage", for instance, which you haven't defined.
>
> Orangiemike, I often think I might need to consult a cryptographer
> before responding to your posts. However: I wasn't talking about
> "attitude" as a generator. I was talking about a common denominator, a
> thread that shows up in all the aforementioned genres.
well, you know, your use of "rage" is off the page: to know what you mean
i'd nead a cartographer. as far as your not understanding my response, i
think that maybe you don't read classical languages enough to have a
feeling for bildung prose.
>
> And, I don't think it should be necessary to define "rage". It is a
> common emotion, which one should hope that we leave behind as we enter
> adulthood.
it isn't at all. "road rage"? "rage at middle aged white men"? "he's all
the rage!" "rakk" is ok as flame of god, but "raag" just means mood. liek,
"object of rage" is the necessity.
>
> At the risk of offending orangiemike in particular, I would say that
> Picasso's images of women suggest that he was enraged at women.
i'm not offended, i'm just amused that you think that old fraud really
meant what he pictured in the early cubist work. no one else does. he
invented a way of stroking the surface of the canvas. it had nothing to do
with women.
> They
> don't look very lovable. Compare Rembrandt, who took every conceivable
> kind of person, the elderly, children, Zeus disguised as a bull, rich
> folks, poor folks, and when you look into their eyes, you see a soul
> that is beautiful. Rembrandt loved people.
balogna, be painted sides of beef with eyes. you misunderstand what it
means to be a painter. painters make pictures of light. we like people
because they reflect light in a nice way. nudes in water are very nice
subjects, but they aren't people.
>
>>you make a big deal about rejecting "modern" music,
>
> I am just patiently waiting for the next Renaissance, or should I say,
> doing what I can to hurry it along.
i don't understand. the renaissance was the death of harmony, the
destruction of the direct song, replacing it with the show-piece, work
written by punk showoff kids.
> They seem to often come as a
> reaction to particularly pessimistic and decadent cultural phases (in
> those cases, where a given civilization manages to survive a
> particularly pessimistic and decadent cultural phase).
well, you know... i write beautiful music to make people feel musical. you
shot down my stuff as "modern". what's the difference between your critique
and Big Mike's "i diddit too, but before"? it's still just inability to
listen, no matter what the rationale. i think that if you and i were to sit
and listen to Carnival together, you would be amazed at how much a composer
can hear and say about a music piece. and it is from this knowledge that i
control and shape my own music. you want your renaissance, but you want it
prepackaged and sanitized to look like some fantasy "old-timey" space.
>
>>you understand that we're looking at you as a musical person, not as a
>>person too sensitive to live in the modern world.
>
> Why, thank you, orangiemike, although I think of myself as a person too
> thick-skinned and ornery to simply succumb to the modern world.
what we do is make individually crafted and vulnerable works... something
which can't be done by machine. Stockhausen, even, makes real handcrafted
work. in spite of the higher intellect which it takes to understand these
modern musics, they are still closer to the understanding than factory jazz
and boom-boom.
anyway, do not go gentle into that good night, old age should burn and ....
Franck Podguszer
To answer this interesting question, you can take a look at Umberto
Eco's book : "Opera aperta"
His interest in Joyce has to be seen in the context of Eco's 'curiosity'
and 'wonder' about the modem world, and about modernity as a cultural
and historical
phenomenon. Joyce thus bridges a gap between Eco's scholarly passion for
a time now past (although it may be returning') and the empirical world
of the here and
now - a world of complexity and diversity: a polyphonic and open world.
The two poles of Eco's intellectual field can be appreciated through the
knowledge that in
the year that he published his chapter on Medieval aesthetics, an
article under Eco's name appeared entitled, 'L'opera in movimento e la
coscienza dell' epoca' ('The
poetics of the open work'), which considered the way modem music
(Stockhausen, Berio, Boulez), modern writing (Mallarmé, Joyce), modern
art (Calder,
Pousseur) in relation to modern science (Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg) now
produce 'works in movement' and 'open works' works whereby the addressee
becomes
an active element in bringing a work to provisional completion, or where
the work itself brings openness to the fore. From this starting point,
Eco develops that
theme of his intellectual trajectory which is concerned with 'the role
of the reader'.
http://pratt.edu/~arch543p/help/Eco.html
"Zita Skořepová" a écrit :
--
Franck Podguszer
Journaliste
Paris