Dies Irae quotes
Victor A Poleshuck
researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme. Any
additions?
Victor
Alkan Symphony for Solo Piano
Berlioz Damnation of Faust
Berlioz Requiem
Berlioz Symphony fantastique
Britten War Requiem
Brumel Dies Irae
Carlos Score for "The Shining" (See Ligeti)
Carter In Sleep, In Thunder, #4
Crumb Black Angels
Daugherty Metropoplis Symphony 4th mvmt
Dohanyi Eb minor Piano Rhapsody, Op. 11, No. 4
Dreyer The Day of Wrath
Dvorak Symphony #7, 1st mvmt
Elfman Score for "Nightmare Before Christmas"
Friedhoffer Score for "Between Heaven and Hell"
Glazunov Moyen Age
Goldenthal Score for "Demolition Man"
Goldsmith Score for "Poltergeist"
Goldsmith Score for "The Mephisto Waltz"
Goldsmith Score for "The Other"
Hermann Score for "Cape Fear"
Hermann Score for "Jason and the Argonauts"
Herrmann Score for "Citizen Kane"
Holmboe Symphony #10, 1st & 4th mvmts
Holmboe Symphony #11, 1st mvmt
Ligeti Score for "The Shining" (see Carlos)
Liszt Dante Symphony
Liszt Totentanz
Loeffler One Who Fell in Battle
Loeffler Rhapsodies for oboe, viola, and piano, 1st movement
Menken Score for "Hunchback of Notre Dame"
Miaskovski Piano Sonata #2
Miaskovski Symphony #6
Mussorgsky Night on Bald Mountain
Mussorgsky Songs and dances of Death
Orff Carmina Burana
Penderecki Dies Irae
Pessina Jubilaeum. Super Mutationes Dies Irae op. 50
Pizzetti Requiem
Rachmaninoff Edudes Tableaux, Op. 39, No. 2
Rachmaninoff Isle of the Dead
Rachmaninoff Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini
Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances
Rachmaninoff Symphony #1
Rachmaninoff Symphony #3
Rachmaninoff The Bells
Respighi Brazilian Impressions
Rosenman Score for "The Car"
Rubin, Marcel Symphony #4, 2nd mvmt (Dies Irae)
Saint-Saens Danse Macabre
Saint-Saens Requiem
Saint-Saens Symphony #3 (Organ), 1st mvmt
Sallinen, Aulis Dies Irae, Op. 47
Schelling Impressions from an Artist's Life
Schickele Unbegun Symphony
Schnittke Symphony #1
Schubert Unfinished Symphony (#8), 1st mvmt
Shostakovich Music for Hamlet
Shostakovich Symphony #14
Sondheim Sweeney Todd
Sorabji, Kaikhosru Cyclic Sequence on Dies Irae (from Mass)
Sorabji, Kaikhosru Variations and Triple Fugue on Dies Irae
Stevenson, R. Passacaglia on DSCH (1962-3)
Strauss Till Eulenspiegel
Stravinsky Rite of Spring (sacrifice intro)
Tchaikovsky Grand Sonata, Op. 37
Tchaikovsky Manfred Symphony
Tchaikovsky Modern Greek Song, Op. 16 #6
Tchaikovsky Orchestral Suite #3
Tiomkin Score for "It's A Wonderful Life"
Vaughan Williams Five Tudor Portraits
Williams, Adrian Dies Irae (1988)
Yannatos Trinity Mass
Ysae Sonata in A minor, Op. 27, No. 2
Matthew B. Tepper
$GY.56...@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
> Thanks to all who contributed. Here is the final compilation, not
> researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme. Any
> additions?
No, one subtraction:
> Berlioz Requiem
Trust me.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Larry Rinkel
news:ahaig...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> "Victor A Poleshuck" <vpo...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in news:nW2_8.179271
> $GY.56...@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
>
> > Thanks to all who contributed. Here is the final compilation, not
> > researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme. Any
> > additions?
>
> No, one subtraction:
>
> > Berlioz Requiem
>
> Trust me.
>
JJ Hinrichs
> Thanks to all who contributed. Here is the final compilation, not
> researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme. Any
> additions?
Hugo Friedhofer's score to "Between Heaven and Hell," an old WWII movie.
Elmer Bernstein's score to "Marie Ward," a 1986 (or thereabouts) foreign
film, also set during WWII.
JJ
Sonarrat Citalis
"JJ Hinrichs" <hinr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3D391724...@worldnet.att.net...
> Victor A Poleshuck wrote:
>
> > Thanks to all who contributed. Here is the final compilation, not
> > researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme. Any
> > additions?
>
> Hugo Friedhofer's score to "Between Heaven and Hell," an old WWII movie.
> Elmer Bernstein's score to "Marie Ward," a 1986 (or thereabouts) foreign
> film, also set during WWII.
The former was already in the list.
--
-Sonarrat Citalis.
Reply-To address disabled for the duration.
http://www.mp3.com/Sonarrat/
Celeste Cadenza
<vpo...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>Orff Carmina Burana
oh? where??
Hanns Krehbiel
Celeste Cadenza <c...@erehwon.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
au5iju4j21ktmahp8...@4ax.com...
I second the astonished question. I fancy myself of knowing C.B. quite well,
played and sung in it, own the study score. I don't remember any Dies Irae.
Besides: The main theme of C.B. is joy of life, (however threatended by
thee vagaries of Fortuna), but not dead.
hanns krehbiel
Andreas Tschager
> Thanks to all who contributed. Here is the final compilation, not
> researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme.
> Any additions?
Rachmaninoff: Symphony #2
(the Dies irae is quoted at the end the scherzo)
Andreas
--
To reply directly, remove the numbers from my email address.
Andante teneramente
> Celeste Cadenza <c...@erehwon.com> schrieb
> > <vpo...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Orff Carmina Burana
> >
> > oh? where??
>
> I second the astonished question. I fancy myself of knowing C.B. quite well,
> played and sung in it, own the study score. I don't remember any Dies Irae.
> Besides: The main theme of C.B. is joy of life, (however threatended by
> thee vagaries of Fortuna), but not dead.
It's the "O Fortuna /velut luna" of course - oh, you have to take the
retrograd-inversion-plus-a-few-simple-permutations.
I wonder why no-one has thought of Beethoven's 5th, 1st movement (bb. 3 - 5):
f - f - f - d should read f - e - f - d.
SCNR, Regards
Fabian Piller
this is probably a stupid question, but what exactly is meant by "dies irae
theme". The one from Mozart's Requiem?
Fabian
"Victor A Poleshuck" <vpo...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:nW2_8.179271$GY.56...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Larry Rinkel
news:ahb6js$mam$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
Every third beat of each alternate measure of the fourth horn part in the
Jeux des Cités Rivales?
Martin Paton
<fabian.pil...@gmx.net> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>this is probably a stupid question, but what exactly is meant by "dies irae
>theme". The one from Mozart's Requiem?
It's a Roman Catholic death chant. "last judgement" - it's just a
descending motif.
--
Regards,
Martin J. Paton
Manchester, UK
Note: The reply-to address is disabled for spam protection.
Joshua Kaufman
>
> Thanks to all who contributed. Here is the final compilation, not
> researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme. Any
> additions?
>
Khachaturain Symphony #2 -- wasn't that on the list before? But I don't
remember if it's there on not.
Now, Khachaturian Symphony #1 DOES have the first four notes, though I'm
not sure if it has more or not, only listened to it once so far.
-Joshua
--
AOL-IM: TerraEpon ICQ: 5404138
Joshua Kaufman
>
> Hi,
>
> this is probably a stupid question, but what exactly is meant by "dies irae
> theme". The one from Mozart's Requiem?
>
>
It's a plainchant from the 1200s (1261?) using the text of the Dies Irae
(which is indeed in settings of the Requiem Mass). I forgot the name of
the credited composer however...
Peter T. Daniels
Hey, that's exactly how *The Bible Code* works!
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Johannes Roehl
> >this is probably a stupid question, but what exactly is meant by "dies irae
> >theme". The one from Mozart's Requiem?
It is the gregorian chant melody (the beginning) for the
same part of the requiem mass: dies irae, dies illa, solvet
saeclum in favilla etc.
> It's a Roman Catholic death chant. "last judgement" - it's just a
> descending motif.
some of the clearest quotations are in Berlioz, Symphonie
Fantastique, Finale (the low brass) and the Liszt piano
variations on the Dies Irae. Once you've heard it is very
easy to recognize.
Johannes
Martin Paton
<johanne...@physik.uni-giessen.de> wrote:
>some of the clearest quotations are in Berlioz, Symphonie
>Fantastique, Finale (the low brass) and the Liszt piano
>variations on the Dies Irae. Once you've heard it is very
>easy to recognize.
I think the best one is in Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini, the final
variation.
Larry Rinkel
news:3D394C49...@physik.uni-giessen.de...
>
>Once you've heard it is very
> easy to recognize.
>
tlste...@tpgi.com.au
Poleshuck" <vpo...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
Yes, there's always some know-all bastard who comes in just after you
think you've finished your life's work. The final chorus in Berthold
Goldschmidt's opera "Beatrice Cenci" quotes the Dies Irae tune to words
beginning "Die Must the Guilty...", etc. In the Sony recording, it's track
8 on disc 2. Apologies.
--
Cheers!
Terry
(remove the numbers if replying direct)
tlste...@tpgi.com.au
Poleshuck" <vpo...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
... and you'd better lose the Schubert "Unfinished". There's no way it's
in that work.
Paul Dormer
vpo...@rochester.rr.com (Victor A Poleshuck) wrote:
> Britten War Requiem
Don't recall it in that. Which movement?
Larry Rinkel
news:memo.20020720...@pauldormer.compulink.co.uk...
If you take the first note of the Agnus Dei, follow it with the fourteenth
note in the boy alto part in the Kyrie, raise the tenth note in the last
baritone solo by an augmented fourth, and add a double-flat to the
next-to-last note in the viola part to the Lacrimosa, you'll get it right
away.
If the composer wants you to recognize that he is quoting the Dies Irae
plainchant, he will make the quotation unmistakable. Berlioz, Liszt,
Rachmaninoff, and Michael Daugherty have done just that.
PS. Satire aside, my guess is the the identifier of this "quotation" was
thinking of the Confutatis maledictis in 5/4 time, where the steady 8th-note
rhythms may have led to this assumption. Melodically, however, there is no
resemblance between Britten and the plainchant.
Kip Williams
And a cooked goose isn't dead? Those ancient partygoers were more
aware of death than we were. They lived with it. I will agree that
CB celebrates the joy of life, but it also gets a lot of mileage by
skating on the surface tension between "behave now and avoid eternal
damnation" and "enjoy life now."
There's a brief motive in "Fortune Plango Vulnera," in measures 11,
13, 15 and 17 that quotes the first four notes ("Dies irae").
The main appearance, to my ears, is in dotted notes in "Estuans
Interius," mm 9-13. Instead of a flat out "Di-es i-rae, di-es
ill-ae" it's more of a "Di-di es-es i-i rae-rae" in 6/8.
Perhaps these are too brief. Anyway, they sounded like it to me, so
I suggested it. I didn't think they were accidental; it seemed to me
that they fit in with the philosophy of the music.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
"Well, it looks as though my time is up. The old clock on the wall
has melted." --Hugh "Wavy Gravy" Romney
Hanns Krehbiel
Victor A Poleshuck <vpo...@rochester.rr.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
nW2_8.179271$GY.56...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Here is another quote:
Jean Francaix: Cinq poèmes de Charles d'Orléans.for voice and piano,
Nr 5: Encore est vive la souris (the mouse is still living). The D.I. is
played in the piano and is notified as such through the direction:
"Le Dies Irae bien marqué et très "habit vert", whatever that
means, probably "very solemnly".
hanns krehbiel
Guillaume Grenier
Poleshuck <vpo...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> Thanks to all who contributed. Here is the final compilation, not
> researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme. Any
> additions?
Yep.
Brahms: Klavierstück op. 118/6
g.
jsifford3
Rachmaninoff Prelude in e minor, Op. 33#4 (The ossia at the end)
"Victor A Poleshuck" <vpo...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:nW2_8.179271$GY.56...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Mark Doran
> >
> >Once you've heard it is very
> > easy to recognize.
> >
> Especially, it seems, in pieces where it doesn't exist.
>
Larry, you're right: at least 20 of the suggestions on the list are
completely delusional. Musicology, again: everyone wants to have discovered
something, so they pretend to have discovered something. And everyone gets
what they want: the 'discoverer' enjoys the feeling of discovery; those
around enjoy feeling that they have a real academic subject and something to
talk about. And who cares if it doesn't stand up - no-one gives a shit.
Working in the Humanities means never having to say you're sorry...
Mark D.
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
objection, I assume it really does occur in "Damnation de
Faust" (which would seem logical, given the subject
matter). However, I've recently returned from hearing three
performances of it in Brussels (plus listening to videos and
recordings of it in preparation for my trip). Just where in
the opera/oratorio does it occur? (Apparently, in the total
experience, it slipped by me, although it's a theme I
generally recognize when I hear it.)
Sonarrat Citalis
news:200720021151359521%gol...@nospamvideotron.ca...
> Yep.
> Brahms: Klavierstück op. 118/6
...Highly modified and with different metrics, but the resemblance is real.
Good ear.
Matthew B. Tepper
news:3D39B3AE...@earthlink.net:
> Since Matthew Tepper, our resident Berlioz expert, made no objection, I
> assume it really does occur in "Damnation de Faust" (which would seem
> logical, given the subject matter). However, I've recently returned
> from hearing three performances of it in Brussels (plus listening to
> videos and recordings of it in preparation for my trip). Just where in
> the opera/oratorio does it occur? (Apparently, in the total
> experience, it slipped by me, although it's a theme I generally
> recognize when I hear it.)
Sorry -- I don't recall it being there, either.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Peter T. Daniels
Of course the augmented fourth is the signature interval of the entire
work, so perhaps the analysis is spot-on!
Gerrie Collins
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 12:23:21 +0200, "Fabian Piller"
> <fabian.pil...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >this is probably a stupid question, but what exactly is meant by "dies irae
> >theme". The one from Mozart's Requiem?
>
> It's a Roman Catholic death chant. "last judgement" - it's just a
> descending motif.
More specifically, it's a Roman liturgy *sequence*, the plainsong
melody of which was (maybe still?) sung in the Catholic Requiem Mass.
Also, it is not entirely descending; the full statement consists of
29 tones, but is more often is heard when quoted in the compositions
named)in just the first eight.
Larry Rinkel
news:PGi_8.15$Pd6...@news.oracle.com...
As I wrote on July 4 when this topic last surfaced:
<<I'll start thinking of another list of fifty works in the minor,
claim they all quote the Dies Irae, and send everybody scattering to their
scores and CDs to find the allusions the composers have so cleverly
disguised.
Let's start with Brahms 118/6 in E flat minor, where the first four notes of
the Dies Irae are quoted not once but twice. But I need a little time to
work on this.
Seriously, though, ... in all cases I know whether the DI is genuinely
quoted,
both the rhythmic and melodic outlines of the plainchant are preserved
pretty closely, and there is usually a programmatic context that helps
"cement" the identification. Certainly true of Berlioz Fantastique, Liszt
Totentanz, S-S Danse Macabre, and probably true of many of the Rachmaninoff
examples as well....>>
Larry Rinkel
"Larry Rinkel" <LRi...@optonline.nete> wrote in message
> >
>
> Seriously, though, ... in all cases I know whether the DI is genuinely
> quoted,
Not "whether" but "where."
Larry Rinkel
news:a39a103.02072...@posting.google.com...
And to follow up, it is also the text of that liturgical sequence, which
composers have set for centuries independent of the original plainchant
melody.
JJ Hinrichs
> > Elmer Bernstein's score to "Marie Ward," a 1986 (or thereabouts) foreign
> > film, also set during WWII.
>
> The former was already in the list.
by golly, you're right!
JJ
tlste...@tpgi.com.au
Rinkel" <LRi...@optonline.nete> wrote:
But in fact, Britten included a Dies Irae in this work -- set to his own
music, of course! The plainchant is not the only tune used with the "dies
irae" words. However, in this discussion we are referring to the
plainchant, I think.
RArmant
<vpo...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>Thanks to all who contributed. Here is the final compilation, not
>researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme. Any
>additions?
Gerald Fried's score for "The Return of Dracula" (1958).
A limited release of this score can be found at:
http://secure.filmscoremonthly.com/store/detailCD.asp?ID=24
>Friedhoffer Score for "Between Heaven and Hell"
A limited release of Friedhoffer's score can be found at:
http://secure.filmscoremonthly.com/store/detailCD.asp?ID=201
notrump15-17
trumpet call during bridge passage to final stretto of ii.
"RArmant" <av...@lafn.org> wrote in message
news:m49mju84m6lg2q0vg...@4ax.com...
Beaver Lad
Honnegger: La Danse des Morts
=====================
In article <nW2_8.179271$GY.56...@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, Victor A
Poleshuck <vpo...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> Thanks to all who contributed. Here is the final compilation, not
> researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme. Any
> additions?
>
> Victor
>
> Alkan Symphony for Solo Piano
> Berlioz Damnation of Faust
> Berlioz Requiem
> Berlioz Symphony fantastique
> Britten War Requiem
> Brumel Dies Irae
> Carlos Score for "The Shining" (See Ligeti)
> Carter In Sleep, In Thunder, #4
> Crumb Black Angels
> Daugherty Metropoplis Symphony 4th mvmt
> Dohanyi Eb minor Piano Rhapsody, Op. 11, No. 4
> Dreyer The Day of Wrath
> Dvorak Symphony #7, 1st mvmt
> Elfman Score for "Nightmare Before Christmas"
> Friedhoffer Score for "Between Heaven and Hell"
Hanns Krehbiel
Kip Williams <ki...@cox.net> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
3D397CE8...@cox.net...
>
> And a cooked goose isn't dead? Those ancient partygoers were more
> aware of death than we were. They lived with it. I will agree that
> CB celebrates the joy of life, but it also gets a lot of mileage by
> skating on the surface tension between "behave now and avoid eternal
> damnation" and "enjoy life now."
>
> There's a brief motive in "Fortune Plango Vulnera," in measures 11,
> 13, 15 and 17 that quotes the first four notes ("Dies irae").
>
> The main appearance, to my ears, is in dotted notes in "Estuans
> Interius," mm 9-13. Instead of a flat out "Di-es i-rae, di-es
> ill-ae" it's more of a "Di-di es-es i-i rae-rae" in 6/8.
This is the original Gregorianic "Dies Irae" tune:
F E F D E C D D
^
The sixth note: the aeolian, or modal, or whatchacallit
C, sticks out. In classical d-minor the note should be
C#. My suggestion: Be this note the test note, the
touchstone. Only when said C, or the transposed equivalent
of it, is present we may speak of an intended D.I. quote.
The first four notes alone form a too elementary melodic
cell. You can find it in quite a few classical and romantic
pieces, in minor key and elsewhere.
In C.B.: "Fortune Plango", I can only detect the four-note
cell in bars 2, 6 etc.: G FEF D E. Test failed.
In "Estuans interius", in the passage "Factus de
materia" the test note would be G. It is absent both in
melody and in harmony, in the bar at mark 82 in the score.
So I suggest that we dismiss C.B. from the list of D.I. quoting
compositions together with Schubert's Unfinished.
What about the following as a D.I. quote:
Schubert string quintet C first movement, the ubiquitous
theme in sixths and thirds:
de\f efd cd\e
^
The D.I. quote could begin at ^. The c is even there, as 5th,
not 6th note. But the whole theme doesn't sound like D.I. at
all. The hamony is the minor subdominant.
This reminds me of a radio feature which I happened to listen-to
many years ago: Some unbalanced musicologist tried to convince
the world that quite a number of pieces were connected by the
following theme, here in C-Major:
c d \ e____(e, .....) d, d e \ f____(f, .....) e,
The pieces were Mozart's Bandl-terzett, the Marseillaise,
Beethoven's sonata "Hammerklavier", Wagner's Siegfried,
and what not. He left it open whether the quotes were intended
by the composers or by some muscal "Weltgeist".
hanns krehbiel
Kip Williams
Well, I would certainly agree that it invokes it rather than quoting
a lengthy passage from it. I daresay ground rules (whether yours or
someone else's) would be helpful in something like this.
I'll note in passing that a quote from a piece often takes on some
coloration different from the original, depending on the composer's
intent. For instance, "The Simpsons" can pull off obvious parodies
of Disney songs by varying the notes just enough so that there's
sixteen points of difference, or whatever attorneys consider sufficient.
For the purposes of this discussion, though, I think you're probably
right. Thanks for the rational discussion.
Peter T. Daniels
> I'll note in passing that a quote from a piece often takes on some
> coloration different from the original, depending on the composer's
> intent. For instance, "The Simpsons" can pull off obvious parodies
> of Disney songs by varying the notes just enough so that there's
> sixteen points of difference, or whatever attorneys consider sufficient.
There is absolutely no legal restriction on parody. (See another thread
somewhere.) SCOTUS may have been pretty weird in a lot of major areas
lately, but they're not yielding an inch on freedom of expression.
> For the purposes of this discussion, though, I think you're probably
> right. Thanks for the rational discussion.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Kip Williams
> Kip Williams wrote:
>
>
>>I'll note in passing that a quote from a piece often takes on some
>>coloration different from the original, depending on the composer's
>>intent. For instance, "The Simpsons" can pull off obvious parodies
>>of Disney songs by varying the notes just enough so that there's
>>sixteen points of difference, or whatever attorneys consider sufficient.
>
>
> There is absolutely no legal restriction on parody. (See another thread
> somewhere.) SCOTUS may have been pretty weird in a lot of major areas
> lately, but they're not yielding an inch on freedom of expression.
It's interesting to hear that. I've been reading discussions on
another group about songs sung to existing tunes, and they have to
be pretty careful not to make any money off them, or sell them, or
publish them with the music or record them. And the Simpsons do
indeed go to the problem of disguising every Disney tune they touch
(perhaps out of pride?). Weird Al always asks permission from the
rights owners, and I think he pays royalties, too.
I suspect anyone has the theoretical right to do it, but if they
can't pay the going price, they can't play. Even to get as far as
saying "to the tune of," MAD had to pay a lot of lawyer's bills.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Kip Williams wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I'll note in passing that a quote from a piece often takes on some
> >>coloration different from the original, depending on the composer's
> >>intent. For instance, "The Simpsons" can pull off obvious parodies
> >>of Disney songs by varying the notes just enough so that there's
> >>sixteen points of difference, or whatever attorneys consider sufficient.
> >
> >
> > There is absolutely no legal restriction on parody. (See another thread
> > somewhere.) SCOTUS may have been pretty weird in a lot of major areas
> > lately, but they're not yielding an inch on freedom of expression.
>
> It's interesting to hear that. I've been reading discussions on
> another group about songs sung to existing tunes, and they have to
> be pretty careful not to make any money off them, or sell them, or
> publish them with the music or record them. And the Simpsons do
(That may be something other than parody in the strict sense -- like
several hymns being traditionally sung to the same tune.)
> indeed go to the problem of disguising every Disney tune they touch
> (perhaps out of pride?). Weird Al always asks permission from the
> rights owners, and I think he pays royalties, too.
>
> I suspect anyone has the theoretical right to do it, but if they
> can't pay the going price, they can't play. Even to get as far as
> saying "to the tune of," MAD had to pay a lot of lawyer's bills.
It's not impossible that it was a Mad Magazine case that finally got the
decision -- it was only a few years ago.
Michael Haslam
> Kip Williams wrote:
>
> > I'll note in passing that a quote from a piece often takes on some
> > coloration different from the original, depending on the composer's
> > intent. For instance, "The Simpsons" can pull off obvious parodies
> > of Disney songs by varying the notes just enough so that there's
> > sixteen points of difference, or whatever attorneys consider sufficient.
>
> There is absolutely no legal restriction on parody.
That may be so in the US but is not the case in the UK and, I suspect, many
other places. Given that The Simpsons is shown around the world the writers
are saving trouble by not infringing copyright as interpreted throughout the
world where parody is not generally a defence - many countries do not have a
right to freedom of speech/expression enshrined in their constitution.
Much old sheet music in my possession contains printed prohibitions of parody
performances, dating from the Music Hall era, I suppose.
MJHaslam
Peter T. Daniels
You wouldn't be hinting that a certain amount of "anti-Britism" is
justified, would you? Your supposed "constitutional" system absent any
explicit civil liberties becomes more and more of a laughingstock over
the years (even Canada enacted a bill of rights recently) -- witness
e.g. the "David Irving" trial for "libel."
Michael Haslam
> > > There is absolutely no legal restriction on parody.
> >
> > That may be so in the US but is not the case in the UK and, I suspect, many
> > other places. Given that The Simpsons is shown around the world the writers
> > are saving trouble by not infringing copyright as interpreted throughout the
> > world where parody is not generally a defence - many countries do not have a
> > right to freedom of speech/expression enshrined in their constitution.
> >
> > Much old sheet music in my possession contains printed prohibitions of parody
> > performances, dating from the Music Hall era, I suppose.
>
> You wouldn't be hinting that a certain amount of "anti-Britism" is
> justified, would you? Your supposed "constitutional" system absent any
> explicit civil liberties becomes more and more of a laughingstock over
> the years (even Canada enacted a bill of rights recently) -- witness
> e.g. the "David Irving" trial for "libel."
The only thing to emerge from the "Irving" trial as a laughing stock was Irving
himself AFAICT. All systems have their strengths and weaknesses. The absolute
freedoms enshrined in the US constitution as interpreted by the courts are very
different from [not better or worse than] those enjoyed elsewhere, particularly in
Europe. The ideas espoused by the mp3-ers seem to have a natural support in the
US. I personally would welcome a bill of rights in the UK but it needn't be based
on any other countries'.
MJHaslam
Peter T. Daniels
> > You wouldn't be hinting that a certain amount of "anti-Britism" is
> > justified, would you? Your supposed "constitutional" system absent any
> > explicit civil liberties becomes more and more of a laughingstock over
> > the years (even Canada enacted a bill of rights recently) -- witness
> > e.g. the "David Irving" trial for "libel."
>
> The only thing to emerge from the "Irving" trial as a laughing stock was Irving
> himself AFAICT. All systems have their strengths and weaknesses. The absolute
> freedoms enshrined in the US constitution as interpreted by the courts are very
> different from [not better or worse than] those enjoyed elsewhere, particularly in
> Europe. The ideas espoused by the mp3-ers seem to have a natural support in the
> US. I personally would welcome a bill of rights in the UK but it needn't be based
> on any other countries'.
The entire notion that the accused libeler has to prove that the
statement was not libelous (while the rest of the world does it the
other way round) is what's laughable -- whatsername having to defend her
research, rather than Irving having to prove his absurdities!
The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
who was, you may recall, one of yours.
Michael Haslam
> Michael Haslam wrote:
>
> > > You wouldn't be hinting that a certain amount of "anti-Britism" is
> > > justified, would you? Your supposed "constitutional" system absent any
> > > explicit civil liberties becomes more and more of a laughingstock over
> > > the years (even Canada enacted a bill of rights recently) -- witness
> > > e.g. the "David Irving" trial for "libel."
> >
> > The only thing to emerge from the "Irving" trial as a laughing stock was Irving
> > himself AFAICT. All systems have their strengths and weaknesses. The absolute
> > freedoms enshrined in the US constitution as interpreted by the courts are very
> > different from [not better or worse than] those enjoyed elsewhere, particularly in
> > Europe. The ideas espoused by the mp3-ers seem to have a natural support in the
> > US. I personally would welcome a bill of rights in the UK but it needn't be based
> > on any other countries'.
>
> The entire notion that the accused libeler has to prove that the
> statement was not libelous (while the rest of the world does it the
> other way round) is what's laughable -- whatsername having to defend her
> research, rather than Irving having to prove his absurdities!
Irving brought the case and lost. What's the problem? Does your "rest of the world"
include countries such as India, China, Australia? I don't know but I guess you don't
either.
> The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
> who was, you may recall, one of yours.
With the greatest of respect you, that is the US, was one of ours!
MJHaslam
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
>
> > Michael Haslam wrote:
> >
> > > > You wouldn't be hinting that a certain amount of "anti-Britism" is
> > > > justified, would you? Your supposed "constitutional" system absent any
> > > > explicit civil liberties becomes more and more of a laughingstock over
> > > > the years (even Canada enacted a bill of rights recently) -- witness
> > > > e.g. the "David Irving" trial for "libel."
> > >
> > > The only thing to emerge from the "Irving" trial as a laughing stock was Irving
> > > himself AFAICT. All systems have their strengths and weaknesses. The absolute
> > > freedoms enshrined in the US constitution as interpreted by the courts are very
> > > different from [not better or worse than] those enjoyed elsewhere, particularly in
> > > Europe. The ideas espoused by the mp3-ers seem to have a natural support in the
> > > US. I personally would welcome a bill of rights in the UK but it needn't be based
> > > on any other countries'.
> >
> > The entire notion that the accused libeler has to prove that the
> > statement was not libelous (while the rest of the world does it the
> > other way round) is what's laughable -- whatsername having to defend her
> > research, rather than Irving having to prove his absurdities!
>
> Irving brought the case and lost. What's the problem? Does your "rest of the world"
> include countries such as India, China, Australia? I don't know but I guess you don't
> either.
The "problem" is that one is not supposed to have to prove that one is
innocent. The state (the Crown, in your case) is supposed to prove that
one is guilty. (I think that one is supposed to go back to Magna Carta
-- it's not explicit in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, it was
simply part of British jurisprudence/common law.)
> > The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
> > who was, you may recall, one of yours.
>
> With the greatest of respect you, that is the US, was one of ours!
And maybe if you'd treated us better, we still would be! Why did we have
no representation in Parliament?
Steven Forrest
[snip]
>> > Your supposed "constitutional" system absent any
>> > explicit civil liberties becomes more and more of a laughingstock over
>> I personally would welcome a bill of rights in the UK but it
>> needn't be based on any other countries'.
>The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
>who was, you may recall, one of yours.
Haven't you guys heard of the English Bill of Rights of 1689?
Many of it's phrases are strikingly similar to passages in
the U.S. Bill of Rights.
-Steve
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Michael Haslam wrote:
> >>Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> [snip]
> >> > Your supposed "constitutional" system absent any
> >> > explicit civil liberties becomes more and more of a laughingstock over
> [snip]
> >> I personally would welcome a bill of rights in the UK but it
> >> needn't be based on any other countries'.
> [snip]
> >The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
> >who was, you may recall, one of yours.
>
> Haven't you guys heard of the English Bill of Rights of 1689?
> Many of it's phrases are strikingly similar to passages in
> the U.S. Bill of Rights.
No; what we hear over and over is that the Brits have no explicit Bill
of Rights.
Michael Haslam
> > > The entire notion that the accused libeler has to prove that the
> > > statement was not libelous (while the rest of the world does it the
> > > other way round) is what's laughable -- whatsername having to defend her
> > > research, rather than Irving having to prove his absurdities!
> >
> > Irving brought the case and lost. What's the problem? Does your "rest of the world"
> > include countries such as India, China, Australia? I don't know but I guess you don't
> > either.
>
> The "problem" is that one is not supposed to have to prove that one is
> innocent. The state (the Crown, in your case) is supposed to prove that
> one is guilty. (I think that one is supposed to go back to Magna Carta
> -- it's not explicit in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, it was
> simply part of British jurisprudence/common law.)
So I guess you *don't* know how the libel laws work in India, China, Australia. In cases
where the Crown [the state] is involved then the onus is on the Crown to prove guilt. In
libel the state is not involved. It is between two parties and different rules apply. The
UK libel laws could well be improved but it is not the most pressing item on the agenda.
> > > The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
> > > who was, you may recall, one of yours.
> >
> > With the greatest of respect you, that is the US, was one of ours!
>
> And maybe if you'd treated us better, we still would be! Why did we have
> no representation in Parliament?
Just remind me what proportion of American adults had the vote in the first hundred years
of the US.
MJHaslam
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
>
> > > > The entire notion that the accused libeler has to prove that the
> > > > statement was not libelous (while the rest of the world does it the
> > > > other way round) is what's laughable -- whatsername having to defend her
> > > > research, rather than Irving having to prove his absurdities!
> > >
> > > Irving brought the case and lost. What's the problem? Does your "rest of the world"
> > > include countries such as India, China, Australia? I don't know but I guess you don't
> > > either.
> >
> > The "problem" is that one is not supposed to have to prove that one is
> > innocent. The state (the Crown, in your case) is supposed to prove that
> > one is guilty. (I think that one is supposed to go back to Magna Carta
> > -- it's not explicit in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, it was
> > simply part of British jurisprudence/common law.)
>
> So I guess you *don't* know how the libel laws work in India, China, Australia. In cases
> where the Crown [the state] is involved then the onus is on the Crown to prove guilt. In
> libel the state is not involved. It is between two parties and different rules apply. The
> UK libel laws could well be improved but it is not the most pressing item on the agenda.
"Libel laws" in China? You make-a me laugh. The others, of course,
slavishly followed the "mother country."
So in Haslamworld, civil actions are insignificant, and only criminal
procedure is worthy of attention?
> > > > The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
> > > > who was, you may recall, one of yours.
> > >
> > > With the greatest of respect you, that is the US, was one of ours!
> >
> > And maybe if you'd treated us better, we still would be! Why did we have
> > no representation in Parliament?
>
> Just remind me what proportion of American adults had the vote in the first hundred years
> of the US.
It varied by state.
What, however, does that have to do with my question?
Michael Haslam
> Michael Haslam wrote:
> >
> > "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
> >
> > > > > The entire notion that the accused libeler has to prove that the
> > > > > statement was not libelous (while the rest of the world does it the
> > > > > other way round) is what's laughable -- whatsername having to defend her
> > > > > research, rather than Irving having to prove his absurdities!
> > > >
> > > > Irving brought the case and lost. What's the problem? Does your "rest of the world"
> > > > include countries such as India, China, Australia? I don't know but I guess you don't
> > > > either.
> > >
> > > The "problem" is that one is not supposed to have to prove that one is
> > > innocent. The state (the Crown, in your case) is supposed to prove that
> > > one is guilty. (I think that one is supposed to go back to Magna Carta
> > > -- it's not explicit in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, it was
> > > simply part of British jurisprudence/common law.)
> >
> > So I guess you *don't* know how the libel laws work in India, China, Australia. In cases
> > where the Crown [the state] is involved then the onus is on the Crown to prove guilt. In
> > libel the state is not involved. It is between two parties and different rules apply. The
> > UK libel laws could well be improved but it is not the most pressing item on the agenda.
>
> "Libel laws" in China? You make-a me laugh. The others, of course,
> slavishly followed the "mother country."
You said, above, "while the rest of the world does it the other way round". If China is
excluded on the basis that it has no libel law, then surely India makes up a large part of the
"rest of the world" that you referred to. If India has the same procedure as English and Welsh
libel law [Scottish law may well be different] then your statement is wrong. I can see why
having to prove the factual accuracy of one's statements might appear harsh to you but *I*
don't have a problem with it.
> So in Haslamworld, civil actions are insignificant, and only criminal
> procedure is worthy of attention?
Major civil actions are rare. I am *more* worried about miscarriage of justice in criminal
cases. That doesn't mean I am not worried about civil actions.
> > > > > The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
> > > > > who was, you may recall, one of yours.
> > > >
> > > > With the greatest of respect you, that is the US, was one of ours!
> > >
> > > And maybe if you'd treated us better, we still would be! Why did we have
> > > no representation in Parliament?
> >
> > Just remind me what proportion of American adults had the vote in the first hundred years
> > of the US.
>
> It varied by state.
>
> What, however, does that have to do with my question?
Did the US exchange a system of taxation without representation for a system of taxation
without representation for *some*?
The huge majority of British citizens in the C18 had no representation either.
MJHaslam
Peter T. Daniels
> > > > > > The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
> > > > > > who was, you may recall, one of yours.
> > > > >
> > > > > With the greatest of respect you, that is the US, was one of ours!
> > > >
> > > > And maybe if you'd treated us better, we still would be! Why did we have
> > > > no representation in Parliament?
> > >
> > > Just remind me what proportion of American adults had the vote in the first hundred years
> > > of the US.
> >
> > It varied by state.
> >
> > What, however, does that have to do with my question?
>
> Did the US exchange a system of taxation without representation for a system of taxation
> without representation for *some*?
Would you care to compare how many US citizens had the vote in 1789 with
how many UK citizens did?
> The huge majority of British citizens in the C18 had no representation either.
Ah, that makes it ok. Why, praytell, did America's landed gentry, at the
very least, have no representation?
Why should a small minority in Britain have had representation, but no
one at all in America?
(There were quite a few other complaints in the Declaration of
Independence too, you know. "No taxation without representation" as a
slogan goes back at least to the Boston Tea Party in 1765.)
Michael Haslam
> Michael Haslam wrote:
I'll accept your silence on the matter of libel in "the rest of the world" as agreement [see A Man
For All Seasons].
> > > > > > > The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
> > > > > > > who was, you may recall, one of yours.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With the greatest of respect you, that is the US, was one of ours!
> > > > >
> > > > > And maybe if you'd treated us better, we still would be! Why did we have
> > > > > no representation in Parliament?
> > > >
> > > > Just remind me what proportion of American adults had the vote in the first hundred years
> > > > of the US.
> > >
> > > It varied by state.
> > >
> > > What, however, does that have to do with my question?
> >
> > Did the US exchange a system of taxation without representation for a system of taxation
> > without representation for *some*?
>
> Would you care to compare how many US citizens had the vote in 1789 with
> how many UK citizens did?
Did American slaves have citizen status?
> > The huge majority of British citizens in the C18 had no representation either.
>
> Ah, that makes it ok. Why, praytell, did America's landed gentry, at the
> very least, have no representation?
An interesting question. Perhaps they didn't line the right pockets. There was terrible corruption
in British politics in those days :-)
The communicant members of the Church of England would have been represented by the House of
Bishops sitting in the Lords, although the refusal of those bishops to send one of their number
across the Atlantic to ordain priests in "the colonies" was the trigger for Wesley to form the
methodists IIRC.
> Why should a small minority in Britain have had representation, but no
> one at all in America?
At that time lack of representation was common throughout the world. We had to fight for
representation throughout the C19 and the "flappers" didn't get the vote until ?1929. Until 1945
university graduates got two votes for the House of Commons.
> (There were quite a few other complaints in the Declaration of
> Independence too, you know. "No taxation without representation" as a
> slogan goes back at least to the Boston Tea Party in 1765.)
I merely picked up on your mention of representation.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
>
> > Michael Haslam wrote:
>
> I'll accept your silence on the matter of libel in "the rest of the world" as agreement [see A Man
> For All Seasons].
I didn't want to have to bother pointing out that heirs of British
imperialism don't count as separate instances from Britain itself.
Just as one wouldn't bother to mention the state of Louisiana if one
happened to mention those that inherited the Napoleonic Code.
> > > > > > > > The Bill of Rights evidently derives largely from the work of Locke --
> > > > > > > > who was, you may recall, one of yours.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With the greatest of respect you, that is the US, was one of ours!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And maybe if you'd treated us better, we still would be! Why did we have
> > > > > > no representation in Parliament?
> > > > >
> > > > > Just remind me what proportion of American adults had the vote in the first hundred years
> > > > > of the US.
> > > >
> > > > It varied by state.
> > > >
> > > > What, however, does that have to do with my question?
> > >
> > > Did the US exchange a system of taxation without representation for a system of taxation
> > > without representation for *some*?
> >
> > Would you care to compare how many US citizens had the vote in 1789 with
> > how many UK citizens did?
>
> Did American slaves have citizen status?
Did British slaves?
> > > The huge majority of British citizens in the C18 had no representation either.
> >
> > Ah, that makes it ok. Why, praytell, did America's landed gentry, at the
> > very least, have no representation?
>
> An interesting question. Perhaps they didn't line the right pockets. There was terrible corruption
> in British politics in those days :-)
Well, I'm sure we're glad _that's_ been cleared up!
> The communicant members of the Church of England would have been represented by the House of
> Bishops sitting in the Lords, although the refusal of those bishops to send one of their number
> across the Atlantic to ordain priests in "the colonies" was the trigger for Wesley to form the
> methodists IIRC.
>
> > Why should a small minority in Britain have had representation, but no
> > one at all in America?
>
> At that time lack of representation was common throughout the world. We had to fight for
> representation throughout the C19 and the "flappers" didn't get the vote until ?1929. Until 1945
> university graduates got two votes for the House of Commons.
Avoiding the question again, I see.
I don't know what you mean by "'flappers'"; women suffrage was achieved
in the US in 1920 (much earlier in some states), in Britain slightly
earlier.
> > (There were quite a few other complaints in the Declaration of
> > Independence too, you know. "No taxation without representation" as a
> > slogan goes back at least to the Boston Tea Party in 1765.)
>
> I merely picked up on your mention of representation.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Michael Haslam
> Michael Haslam wrote:
> >
> > "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
> >
> > > Michael Haslam wrote:
> >
> > I'll accept your silence on the matter of libel in "the rest of the world" as agreement [see A Man
> > For All Seasons].
>
> I didn't want to have to bother pointing out that heirs of British
> imperialism don't count as separate instances from Britain itself.
>
> Just as one wouldn't bother to mention the state of Louisiana if one
> happened to mention those that inherited the Napoleonic Code.
So by "the rest of the world" you exclude a large part of it. Why not bother pointing something out
that you could have avoided in the first place? If the entire world apart from Switzerland had
inherited the Napoleonic Code would you compare the US with the rest of the world and mean Switzerland?
> <snip>
> > >
> > > Would you care to compare how many US citizens had the vote in 1789 with
> > > how many UK citizens did?
> >
> > Did American slaves have citizen status?
>
> Did British slaves?
After the Wilberforce reforms there weren't any.
> > > > The huge majority of British citizens in the C18 had no representation either.
> > >
> > > Ah, that makes it ok. Why, praytell, did America's landed gentry, at the
> > > very least, have no representation?
> >
> > An interesting question. Perhaps they didn't line the right pockets. There was terrible corruption
> > in British politics in those days :-)
>
> Well, I'm sure we're glad _that's_ been cleared up!
>
> <snip>
> >
> > > Why should a small minority in Britain have had representation, but no
> > > one at all in America?
> >
> > At that time lack of representation was common throughout the world. We had to fight for
> > representation throughout the C19 and the "flappers" didn't get the vote until ?1929. Until 1945
> > university graduates got two votes for the House of Commons.
>
> Avoiding the question again, I see.
If your question is "why wasn't there full representational democracy throughout the world in the late
18th century?" and "why did no colonial power give the vote to its colonies?" I'm afraid I can't help
you. Everything I know about avoiding or ignoring the question I learned from you :-)
> I don't know what you mean by "'flappers'"; women suffrage was achieved
> in the US in 1920 (much earlier in some states), in Britain slightly
> earlier.
In Great Britain women over the age of 30 were granted the vote some considerable time before women
aged 21-30. It was called the flapper vote because flapper was the name given to young British women in
the swinging 20's. The world was sure to come to a swift end once these creatures had the vote!
MJHaslam
Peter T. Daniels
> > > > Would you care to compare how many US citizens had the vote in 1789 with
> > > > how many UK citizens did?
> > >
> > > Did American slaves have citizen status?
> >
> > Did British slaves?
>
> After the Wilberforce reforms there weren't any.
I don't know what that is, but there were slaves in Britain until 1833
-- nearly fifty years beyond the ratification of the Constitution, which
allowed discussion of the question as of 1808. (Whereupon it became
discussed ad nauseam, to little avail.) Only thirty years before the
Emancipation Proclamation put a de facto end to slavery in the minority
of states that still permitted it.
> > > > > The huge majority of British citizens in the C18 had no representation either.
> > > >
> > > > Ah, that makes it ok. Why, praytell, did America's landed gentry, at the
> > > > very least, have no representation?
> > >
> > > An interesting question. Perhaps they didn't line the right pockets. There was terrible corruption
> > > in British politics in those days :-)
> >
> > Well, I'm sure we're glad _that's_ been cleared up!
> >
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > > Why should a small minority in Britain have had representation, but no
> > > > one at all in America?
> > >
> > > At that time lack of representation was common throughout the world. We had to fight for
> > > representation throughout the C19 and the "flappers" didn't get the vote until ?1929. Until 1945
> > > university graduates got two votes for the House of Commons.
> >
> > Avoiding the question again, I see.
>
> If your question is "why wasn't there full representational democracy throughout the world in the late
> 18th century?" and "why did no colonial power give the vote to its colonies?" I'm afraid I can't help
> you. Everything I know about avoiding or ignoring the question I learned from you :-)
No; my question is, If the Americans were Brits who lived across the
ocean (which was how they saw themselves), why didn't they have
representation?
> > I don't know what you mean by "'flappers'"; women suffrage was achieved
> > in the US in 1920 (much earlier in some states), in Britain slightly
> > earlier.
>
> In Great Britain women over the age of 30 were granted the vote some considerable time before women
> aged 21-30. It was called the flapper vote because flapper was the name given to young British women in
> the swinging 20's. The world was sure to come to a swift end once these creatures had the vote!
The voting age in the US was lowered from 21 to 18 just in time for me
to vote against Nixon the second time -- I'd have been too young for the
presidential election by about five weeks otherwise.
The musical of *Thoroughly Modern Millie* won an inordinate number of
Tonys this season.
(Relevance, in case it escapes you: it deals with both flappers and
"white slavery," in a humorous fashion.)
Oyvind J. Karstad
> researched or checked, of offered quotes of the dies irae theme. Any
> additions?
Glennie-Smith/Zimmer/Gregson-Williams - Score for "The Rock"
Ųyvind J. Karstad
Michael Haslam
Michael Haslam wrote:> > > > Would you care to compare how many US citizens had the vote in 1789 with
> > > > how many UK citizens did?
> > >
> > > Did American slaves have citizen status?
> >
> > Did British slaves?
>
> After the Wilberforce reforms there weren't any.I don't know what that is, but there were slaves in Britain until 1833
http://www.english.nwu.edu/llipking/18thc/slavery/
-- nearly fifty years beyond the ratification of the Constitution, which
allowed discussion of the question as of 1808. (Whereupon it became
discussed ad nauseam, to little avail.) Only thirty years before the
Emancipation Proclamation put a de facto end to slavery in the minority
of states that still permitted it.> > > > > The huge majority of British citizens in the C18 had no representation either.
> > > >
> > > > Ah, that makes it ok. Why, praytell, did America's landed gentry, at the
> > > > very least, have no representation?
> > >
> > > An interesting question. Perhaps they didn't line the right pockets. There was terrible corruption
> > > in British politics in those days :-)
> >
> > Well, I'm sure we're glad _that's_ been cleared up!
> >
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > > Why should a small minority in Britain have had representation, but no
> > > > one at all in America?
> > >
> > > At that time lack of representation was common throughout the world. We had to fight for
> > > representation throughout the C19 and the "flappers" didn't get the vote until ?1929. Until 1945
> > > university graduates got two votes for the House of Commons.
> >
> > Avoiding the question again, I see.
>
> If your question is "why wasn't there full representational democracy throughout the world in the late
> 18th century?" and "why did no colonial power give the vote to its colonies?" I'm afraid I can't help
> you. Everything I know about avoiding or ignoring the question I learned from you :-)No; my question is, If the Americans were Brits who lived across the
ocean (which was how they saw themselves), why didn't they have
representation?
Because the system then in operation had no provision for such "across the ocean" representation. The Brits in Gibraltar still have no representation in parliament and as long as they are allowed to remain Brits on British soil they are happy.
> > I don't know what you mean by "'flappers'"
But, apparently, you knew what flappers were from "Thoroughly Modern Millie".
; women suffrage was achieved
> > in the US in 1920 (much earlier in some states), in Britain slightly
> > earlier.
>
> In Great Britain women over the age of 30 were granted the vote some considerable time before women
> aged 21-30. It was called the flapper vote because flapper was the name given to young British women in
> the swinging 20's. The world was sure to come to a swift end once these creatures had the vote!
The voting age in the US was lowered from 21 to 18 just in time for me
to vote against Nixon the second time -- I'd have been too young for the
Fascinating.presidential election by about five weeks otherwise.\
The musical of *Thoroughly Modern Millie* won an inordinate number of
Tonys this season.(Relevance, in case it escapes you: it deals with both flappers and
"white slavery," in a humorous fashion.)
So now you know that "flapper" had a political dimension, too.
MJHaslam
Peter T. Daniels
> > > I don't know what you mean by "'flappers'"
>
> But, apparently, you knew what flappers were from "Thoroughly Modern
> Millie".
And many other sources, of course.
I didn't know what _you meant_ by "'flappers'."
> ; women suffrage was achieved
> > > in the US in 1920 (much earlier in some states), in
> Britain slightly
> > > earlier.
> >
> > In Great Britain women over the age of 30 were granted the
> vote some considerable time before women
> > aged 21-30. It was called the flapper vote because flapper
> was the name given to young British women in
> > the swinging 20's. The world was sure to come to a swift
> end once these creatures had the vote!
>
> The voting age in the US was lowered from 21 to 18 just in
> time for me
> to vote against Nixon the second time -- I'd have been too
> young for the
> presidential election by about five weeks otherwise.\
>
> Fascinating.
Why?
> The musical of *Thoroughly Modern Millie* won an inordinate
> number of
> Tonys this season.
>
> (Relevance, in case it escapes you: it deals with both
> flappers and
> "white slavery," in a humorous fashion.)
>
> So now you know that "flapper" had a political dimension, too.
And now I know that that's what you meant.
Michael Haslam
> Michael Haslam wrote:
>
> > > > I don't know what you mean by "'flappers'"
> >
> > But, apparently, you knew what flappers were from "Thoroughly Modern
> > Millie".
>
> And many other sources, of course.
>
> I didn't know what _you meant_ by "'flappers'."
>
> > ; women suffrage was achieved
> > > > in the US in 1920 (much earlier in some states), in
> > Britain slightly
> > > > earlier.
> > >
> > > In Great Britain women over the age of 30 were granted the
> > vote some considerable time before women
> > > aged 21-30. It was called the flapper vote because flapper
> > was the name given to young British women in
> > > the swinging 20's. The world was sure to come to a swift
> > end once these creatures had the vote!
> >
> > The voting age in the US was lowered from 21 to 18 just in
> > time for me
> > to vote against Nixon the second time -- I'd have been too
> > young for the
> > presidential election by about five weeks otherwise.\
> >
> > Fascinating.
>
> Why?
Joke.
> > The musical of *Thoroughly Modern Millie* won an inordinate
> > number of
> > Tonys this season.
> >
> > (Relevance, in case it escapes you: it deals with both
> > flappers and
> > "white slavery," in a humorous fashion.)
> >
> > So now you know that "flapper" had a political dimension, too.
>
> And now I know that that's what you meant.
What possible other meaning of "flapper vote" in Britain, in a discussion
of parliamentary representation, c.1929 could there be?
MJHaslam
Peter T. Daniels
> > > So now you know that "flapper" had a political dimension, too.
> >
> > And now I know that that's what you meant.
>
> What possible other meaning of "flapper vote" in Britain, in a discussion
> of parliamentary representation, c.1929 could there be?
Well who would have thought that a country supposedly so enlightened as
the UK would have drawn a line at the age of 30 for women and 21
(presumably) for men?? You probably should be grateful that that
particular bit of lunacy was unfamiliar to me (and probably to most
Americans).
Michael Haslam
I would rather go with facts than suppositions. Starting off with a
supposition that the UK was, at a particular time, enlightened and then, in a
fit of mock horror, discovering examples of unenlightenment smacks of strawman
IMO. Women only got the vote in Switzerland in 1971 and in one canton only
gained the vote in 1990! Are there any examples of US lunacy that you would
prefer to keep hidden from the eyes of the rest of the world? Unfortunately we
know about McCarthyism.
MJHaslam