Opinions on Klemperer?
Jarl Sigurd
rather still. Still, what I have heard has not impressed
me overly much. While Klemperer seems to have been
a colorful character with interesting ideas on the staging
of opera, musically he hardly seems to be on the same
level as his contemporaries like Wilhelm Furtwangler and
Bruno Walter. I'm curious what other peoples views are
on Klemperer and what are generally regarded as his best
recordings.
Jarl Sigurd
to listen to a concerto that I composed last fall, visit
http://geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Pavilion/4085/concerto.html
David Hurwitz
prefer him to Furtwangler, generally, and find his sober, unsentimental
approach to music making very powerful in a lot of the standard German
repertoire, as well as revelatory in a limited range of other works. His
preference in recording for a forward wind balance allows a great amount of
interesting instrumental detail to register without his having to fiddle
with the basic tempo. And although he had a reputation in his late years as
a "slow" conductor, this is too simplistic. His slow movements, generally,
are among the swiftest on disc (especially in Bruckner), and some of his
Allegros could move very quickly (first movement of Tchaikovsky's 5th,
finale of Brahms 4th). I think his discography on EMI has a very large
percentage of excellent performances, a better average than many other
conductors. My list of essential Klemperer, all on EMI:
Brahms: Symphonies 1 - 4, German Requiem
Beethoven: Fidelio
Wagner: Flying Dutchman
Wagner: Orchestral Music (2 CDs)
Mahler: Symphonies Nos. 2 and 4
Bruckner: Symphonies Nos. 4, 6 and 7
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 5
Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 (the live one on Testament)
Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 3, 5 and 6 (some prefer his mono's of 3 and 5)
Beethoven: Overtures
Mozart: Symphonies 39 - 41
Mozart: The Magic Flute and Don Giovanni
Mendelssohn: A Midsummer Night's Dream
Bach: St. Matthew Passion
Schubert: Symphony Nos. 5, 8 and 9
Haydn: Symphonies Nos. 92 "Oxford," 95, 101 "Clock" and 102
Schumann: Symphonies Nos. 1 "Spring" and 4
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
http://www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
Jarl Sigurd <jarls...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:SXae4.202945$5r2.5...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
Gloria S Chase
It must be admitted that Klemperer is an acquired taste. When you watch
him on video (which I recommend you do) he doesn't seem to be doing
anything; he just gives a steady beat with his right fist and glares.
He's like an iceberg: big and unstoppable and 7/8ths beneath the
surface.
Listen to the sound he gets from the orchestra (especially the
Philharmonia). Listen to the blending of the winds. Listen to the
meticulous balance. Try to understand how he conveys huge architectural
spans through the phrasing and makes long sentences easily
understandable. Feel that slow, steady, measured pulse.
Klemperer is not a flashy conductor. He doesn't show off visually or
aurally. But he conveys the substance of a piece the way that few
others can, if you have the readiness and the PATIENCE to receive it.
There's alot of "there" there, if you know what I mean.
I recommend you find his Brahms 1 and/or his mono Beethoven 5. These
are performances I listen to very rarely because it is so draining. If
at the end you don't feel emotionally wrung out, exhausted, limp, then
put them on the shelf for 6 months or so and try again later. It's
worth the effort to keep trying until you hear what is there.
Brian J. Chase
Gail Mrozak
moment). I have the Mozart Magic Flute (nice cast!) and I like it. I
have his recording of Handel's Messiah....it sure isn't modern
tastes...."All we like sheep" is slooowww; it plods rather than
trots....but the recording still is liked by some because of the
wonderful soloists (Schwarzkopf, I can't remembe the alto, Gedda,
Hines).
David Hurwitz wrote:
> My list of essential Klemperer, all on EMI:
>
> Brahms: Symphonies 1 - 4, German Requiem
> Beethoven: Fidelio
> Wagner: Flying Dutchman
> Wagner: Orchestral Music (2 CDs)
> Mahler: Symphonies Nos. 2 and 4
> Bruckner: Symphonies Nos. 4, 6 and 7
> Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 5
> Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 (the live one on Testament)
> Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 3, 5 and 6 (some prefer his mono's of 3 and 5)
> Beethoven: Overtures
> Mozart: Symphonies 39 - 41
> Mozart: The Magic Flute and Don Giovanni
> Mendelssohn: A Midsummer Night's Dream
> Bach: St. Matthew Passion
> Schubert: Symphony Nos. 5, 8 and 9
> Haydn: Symphonies Nos. 92 "Oxford," 95, 101 "Clock" and 102
> Schumann: Symphonies Nos. 1 "Spring" and 4
--
Gail Mrozak
"You play that cling cling cling jazz
or you won't get PAID tonight!"
--Stan Freberg, "The Great Pretender"
Peter T. Daniels
>
> My exposure to Otto Klemperer's recordings has been
> rather still. Still, what I have heard has not impressed
> me overly much. While Klemperer seems to have been
> a colorful character with interesting ideas on the staging
> of opera, musically he hardly seems to be on the same
> level as his contemporaries like Wilhelm Furtwangler and
> Bruno Walter. I'm curious what other peoples views are
> on Klemperer and what are generally regarded as his best
> recordings.
S L O W . Plus he was saddled with incompetent engineers at Angel (the
American branch of EMI) in the 1960s; you could barely hear the music
most of the time, and it was rare to get an LP that didn't have pressing
flaws in it.
I'm pretty sure his Matthew Passion took 6 LPs.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Tony Movshon
"David Hurwitz" <hurw...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> I think that Klemperer was one of the great conductors of our century.
> percentage of excellent performances, a better average than many other
> conductors.
Absolutely agreed. And unlike so many other conductors, Klemperer was
able almost always to be both distinctive and interesting, whatever he
conducted. With the Philharmonia, Klemperer perfected a wonderful and
distinctive orchestral balance with prominent winds, low strings and
drums, which is far more to my taste than the violin-heavy balance
favored by so meany others. AFAIK he always divided the violins, which
reduces the weight of the massed violin tone and time and again reveals
the antiphonal contrast between the lines. The Klemperer sound was not
always seductive - it could sound uncompromisingly craggy - but it
always serves the music well. I'm not sure how it would work in, say,
Scheherazade, but that's not the point. His other distinctive feature
was extraordinary attention to rhythm and dynamics, whetever the tempo;
his insistence on sustaining tone throughout a note and phrase gives his
performances a lift and life that elude many others who play slowly.
Klemperer was usually but not always captured well by EMI in the studio,
but his "sound" can be heard beautifully in the live Beethoven 9th
recently issued on Testament and noted by DH.
> My list of essential Klemperer, all on EMI:
Excellent list snipped, additions:
Beethoven 7 (the 1961, not the milder 1955)
Schumann 3 (he's the only one who takes it slowly enough to let the
Rhine really flow without letting the rhythm flag)
Mozart symphony 25 and piano cto 25 w/ Barenboim (specific antidotes for
the "Klemperer is slow" canard)
Bruckner 9 and Mahler 9 (great performances both; in both what one might
call Klemperer's "craggy objectivism" leads to an enormous cumulative
impact)
Bach B minor mass (grand and intensely moving, slow without a hint of
bloat)
Beethoven piano concertos with Barenboim (inexplicably neglected,
characterful, pointed, powerful, with beautiful pianism from the
young Barenboim)
Mahler Das Lied von der Erde (many people's reference choice)
Bruckner 4 (the live Bavarian Radio performance now on EMI is IMHO
superior to the EMI studio one, and the live 1947 Concertgebouw now
on Tahra is fascinating for contrast; it's hard to imagine this is
the same conductor).
Mahler 2 (the live Bavarian one, in case that's not what DH had in
mind)
Mendelssohn 3 and 4 (poised, balanced, with a dark Scottish and a
light-footed Italian, each wonderful)
To the degree that it makes sense to say something like this, Klemperer
is my favorite conductor. Meaning that if I had to choose a recording of
almost anything, unheard, I would pick his. He was that good.
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
Center for Neural Science New York University
heck5
"Jarl Sigurd" <jarls...@geocities.com> wrote:
.........I'm curious what other peoples views are
> on Klemperer......
OK could be effective in big, monumental works - Brahms German Requiem,
LvB Missa solemnis; but generally I find him just TOO SLOW. The
Philharmonia sounds terrific for him, but his tempi are just too
glacially slow for my tastes. Seems unable to move it when needed.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David M. Cook
>OK could be effective in big, monumental works - Brahms German Requiem,
>LvB Missa solemnis; but generally I find him just TOO SLOW. The
>Philharmonia sounds terrific for him, but his tempi are just too
>glacially slow for my tastes. Seems unable to move it when needed.
In what works? He was certainly able to move it in his Mendelssohn
and Haydn symphonies.
Dave Cook
Matt Friedman
>
> My exposure to Otto Klemperer's recordings has been
> rather still. Still, what I have heard has not impressed
> me overly much. While Klemperer seems to have been
> a colorful character with interesting ideas on the staging
> of opera, musically he hardly seems to be on the same
> level as his contemporaries like Wilhelm Furtwangler and
> Bruno Walter. I'm curious what other peoples views are
> on Klemperer and what are generally regarded as his best
> recordings.
I don't have a lot of Klemperer, so I may be missong something...
HOWEVER...
IMO his recording of Beethoven's Fidelio [with Ludwig and Vickers] is
the definitive Fidelio. It has a certain raw energy that I don't hear in
other performances, and the orchestra is very lush. I love this disk. I
like and respect, rather than LOVE his recording of Das Lied von der
Erde. While I find the performance tonally colourful, I find that it's
missing some testosterone. It doesn't -- to my ear -- have the depth of
Tennstedt's.
On the other hand, Klemperer's Brahms symphonies [the ones recorded in
the 50s] are wonderful. I usually find Brahms' symphonic work a bit
overdone and, well, boring. Klemperer keeps my interest thoughout.
Oddly, I find he has a light touch in all the right places [whereas it
tends to be in the wrong places in Das Lied...].
Is he on Walter's, Furtwangler's or Karajan's level? That's hard to say.
He certainly IS different, and tends to have a somewhat lighter approach
than Walter [who, after all, doesn't?], but from what I've heard, it
usually works. Different people have different styles. I love Karajan's
Bruckner, for example, but I find his Mozart -- all of it -- to be
absolutely unlistenable. [I know it's just me, no need to flame me.]
More to the point, Klemperer isn IMO, a whole lot better than a lot of
the conductors around TODAY. So that's something.
August Helmbright
"Jarl Sigurd" <jarls...@geocities.com> wrote:
> My exposure to Otto Klemperer's recordings has been
> rather still. Still, what I have heard has not impressed
> me overly much. While Klemperer seems to have been
> a colorful character with interesting ideas on the staging
> of opera, musically he hardly seems to be on the same
> level as his contemporaries like Wilhelm Furtwangler and
> Bruno Walter. I'm curious what other peoples views are
> on Klemperer and what are generally regarded as his best
> recordings.
>
question about whether there is a "Klemperer sound" by saying there is -
- characterized by prominence of the woodwinds and a concentration on
the upbeat (the latter he said he learned from Toscanini -- that the
preparation is much more important than the downbeat). He also noted
that a conductor must allow the musicians (and the music) to breathe.
I happen to love the woodwind forward orchestral balance favored by
Klemperer, not to mention his division of the first and second violins.
Klemperer, perhaps due to his bi-polar disorder, could be inconsistent,
but nowhere near as inconsistent as Knappertsbush, who could be
inspiring one day and deadly dull the next, or even Furtwängler, who
could conduct amazing performances with ensembles that were used to him
but also turned in some really ragged work with less polished groups.
IMO, Klemperer's best work generally speaking pre-dates the break up of
the old Philharmonia (immediately reconstituted as the "New
Philharmonia"), although there are some great New Philharmonia
performances as well: Das Lied von der Erde (begun with the Old and
finished with New); Mahler's 9th; Bruckner's 6th; Mozart's Zauberflöte
(sans dialogue); and (a controversial choice due to tempi, but I love
it), Bruckner's 5th. About anything with the Philharmonia is worth
listening to. The Mahler 2nd, Bruckner 4th & 7th (the 7th is
unfortunately transferred to CD pitched slightly flat), and Brahms
recordings are as good as it gets.
To understand where I am coming from, I think it says something that I
generally do NOT like overly slow conductors (I won't repeat my opinion
of Celibidache here), but I am still a Klemperer enthusiast. The
strength of his musicianship sweeps away all criticism for me in the
vast majority of his recordings.
--
Join the petition for a memorial edition CD for the late Georg Tintner
at http://tintnerpetition.tripod.com
August Helmbright
Matt Friedman
>
> In article <Hmoe4.684$Lg2....@wagner.videotron.net>,
> Matt Friedman <"mwf"@total.net(remove-to-reply)> wrote:
> # IMO his recording of Beethoven's Fidelio [with Ludwig and Vickers] is
> # the definitive Fidelio. It has a certain raw energy that I don't hear in
> # other performances,
>
> That's Vickers. :)
>
> (I do love this recording, though I'm not sure I'd characterize its main
> virtue as 'raw energy'.)
That probably wasn't quite the RIGHT term. The tempos are slow, and it's
not what I'd call a KINETIC performance. But, remember, this is a story
where one of the main character is off-stage, in a cell for half the
opera. There's a sense of looming danger and threat throughout the first
act [will Leonore succeed? What happens to Florestan if she doesn't?
Will Marzelline discover Fidelio's secret and tell dad?]. In the second
act, that becomes a kind of bottled, claustrophobic tension that seems
ready to explode at any moment. Vickers balances between resignation and
a barely-concealed anger at fate, fortune and Don Pizarro]. There's a
wonderful tension in Klemperer's recording that pulses with potential
energy. THAT's what I mean.
MF
Alex Leach
recordings that are perhaps better known.
--
Alex
Jarl Sigurd <jarls...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:SXae4.202945$5r2.5...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
> My exposure to Otto Klemperer's recordings has been
> rather still. Still, what I have heard has not impressed
> me overly much. While Klemperer seems to have been
> a colorful character with interesting ideas on the staging
> of opera, musically he hardly seems to be on the same
> level as his contemporaries like Wilhelm Furtwangler and
> Bruno Walter. I'm curious what other peoples views are
> on Klemperer and what are generally regarded as his best
> recordings.
>
Roland van Gaalen
: [...]
: Bach B minor mass (grand and intensely moving, slow without a hint of
: bloat)
To me, Klemperer was a _credible_ and therefore great Bach interpreter.
I agree with Tony's recommendation, and would like to add (apart from the
St Matthew Passion already mentioned by Dave Hurwitz):
-Orchestral suites on Testament
-Brandenburg Concertos / Orchestra suites on EMI
Roland van Gaalen
Tony Duggan
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3879D2...@worldnet.att.net...
| Jarl Sigurd wrote:
| S L O W .
Sometimes but by no means always. Hear his Brahms Requiem.
| Plus he was saddled with incompetent engineers at Angel (the
| American branch of EMI) in the 1960s
No he recorded for EMI and his records therefore appeared on Angel. Actually, I
think he was blessed with some of the best engineers (Larter, Gooch, Boyling)
and producers (Legge, Grubb) in the business.
|; you could barely hear the music
Rubbish. His recordings were noted for their clarity.
| most of the time, and it was rare to get an LP that didn't have pressing
| flaws in it.
I never had any problems, at least. Perhaps I was easy to please.....or lucky.
| I'm pretty sure his Matthew Passion took 6 LPs.
No, it was _four_ actually. The same number as Richter, Muchinger, Harnoncourt,
Karajan, etc.
Tony Duggan, England.
My developing Mahler recordings survey:
Now containing Symphonies 1,2,4,5 and DLVDE:
http://www.musicweb.force9.co.uk/music/Mahler/index.html
Tony Duggan
David Hurwitz <hurw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:85bg6a$7j0$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
My list of essential Klemperer, all on EMI:
| Brahms: Symphonies 1 - 4, German Requiem
Yes, and his Requiem, one of the fastest ever recorded.
| Beethoven: Fidelio
| Wagner: Flying Dutchman
I'm glad you mentioned that one. Often overlooked.
| Wagner: Orchestral Music (2 CDs)
| Mahler: Symphonies Nos. 2 and 4
The "live" EMI one over the studio one and not forgetting the 1951
Concertgebouw. Again, swift tempi.
I rate his Das Lied. Also and his Mahler 9th.
| Bruckner: Symphonies Nos. 4, 6 and 7
| Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 5
| Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 (the live one on Testament)
Good to see that appear at last. There is also a superb Royal Albert Hall
televised performance in the BBC vaults.
| Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 3, 5 and 6 (some prefer his mono's of 3 and 5)
I'm greedy and like to have both.
| Beethoven: Overtures
| Mozart: Symphonies 39 - 41
| Mozart: The Magic Flute and Don Giovanni
| Mendelssohn: A Midsummer Night's Dream
A gem.
--
Tony Movshon
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> Jarl Sigurd wrote:
> > My exposure to Otto Klemperer's recordings has been
> > rather still. Still, what I have heard has not impressed
> > me overly much. While Klemperer seems to have been
> > a colorful character with interesting ideas on the staging
> > of opera, musically he hardly seems to be on the same
> > level as his contemporaries like Wilhelm Furtwangler and
> > Bruno Walter. I'm curious what other peoples views are
> > on Klemperer and what are generally regarded as his best
> > recordings.
>
> American branch of EMI) in the 1960s; you could barely hear the music
> most of the time, and it was rare to get an LP that didn't have pressing
> flaws in it.
Klemperer actually got pretty good engineering from EMI; the US
pressings were indeed dismal but the British ones were better; however,
it is only on CD can you hear how good the engineering really was.
> I'm pretty sure his Matthew Passion took 6 LPs.
I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about. Klemperer's
Matthew Passion runs a bit more than 3 1/2 hours. Probably it was on 4
LPs, perhaps 5. For many of us it is *the* recording of the SMP. No one
else captures the grandeur and majesty of the piece like Klemperer.
Do you have anything illuminating to say? We know he was often slow. So
what?
phlmaes...@my-deja.com
Among my favorites of his recordings are:
Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and mono Eroica
Brahms' German Requiem and second symphony
Bruckner's 6th symphony, and
Mahler's 2nd (live BRSO)
heck5
dave...@home.com (David M. Cook) wrote:
> In what works? He was certainly able to move it in his Mendelssohn
> and Haydn symphonies.
>
OTTOMH- Schumann Sym#1, LvB #7, #9.
Michael Weston
: Absolutely agreed. And unlike so many other conductors, Klemperer was
: able almost always to be both distinctive and interesting, whatever he
: conducted. With the Philharmonia, Klemperer perfected a wonderful and
: distinctive orchestral balance with prominent winds, low strings and
: drums, which is far more to my taste than the violin-heavy balance
: favored by so meany others. AFAIK he always divided the violins, which
How much can we credit Klemps for this and not the orchestra or the
recording managers? One would not guess that Klemperer was a fine
orchestra technician from interviews with those involved in the
recordings.
The Beethoven 9 video and the Kutul video "OK's Long Journey Through His
Life and Times" are quite worthy of anyone's attention.
michael
K. Howson-Jan
treasure it) on this side of the pond, about 3-1/2 hours running time. Harnoncourt
is about a half hour faster.
I note that much of Mr. Daniels's comments about sonics refer to the LP's, I presume
the American pressed Angels. These did suffer in comparison to European and
Japanese pressings for a long time. I think the differences pretty well disappeared
in the late LP era when the DMM process came in.
Otherwise, I have little to add re. OK's merits, except to point to yet another
example of OK's misleading speeds: the Jupiter symphony.
Kang
Tony Duggan wrote:
> -
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3879D2...@worldnet.att.net...
> | Jarl Sigurd wrote:
>
> | S L O W .
>
> Sometimes but by no means always. Hear his Brahms Requiem.
>
> | Plus he was saddled with incompetent engineers at Angel (the
> | American branch of EMI) in the 1960s
>
> No he recorded for EMI and his records therefore appeared on Angel. Actually, I
> think he was blessed with some of the best engineers (Larter, Gooch, Boyling)
> and producers (Legge, Grubb) in the business.
>
> |; you could barely hear the music
>
> Rubbish. His recordings were noted for their clarity.
>
> | most of the time, and it was rare to get an LP that didn't have pressing
> | flaws in it.
>
> I never had any problems, at least. Perhaps I was easy to please.....or lucky.
>
> | I'm pretty sure his Matthew Passion took 6 LPs.
>
> No, it was _four_ actually. The same number as Richter, Muchinger, Harnoncourt,
> Karajan, etc.
>
David Cleary
: I recommend you find his Brahms 1
[snip]
When I was a student, I wrote a paper comparing performances of Brahms 1st
symphony, 4th movement to see how faithfully they adhere to the score, with
particular emphasis on the two introductory sections and the coda (as well as
the section leading into it). I was especially interested to see how tempos
were handled and whether ritards/accelerandos/slower tempi were added in or
ignored in the score. If memory serves, I listened to every recording of the
piece in the library at New England Conservatory (about 20 or so) in
preparation for writing the paper, and all were by conductors I had heard of
at that time. Klemperer's was the *only* one of that group of performances
that did the piece exactly as marked in the score.
Dave
Richard Shindle
Ninth. Because of the intense emotional reaction I had each time I heard
it, it took time before I could perceive it intellectually. And what an
amazing symphony, especially under the guidance of Mahler. I have not yet
heard another performance to match it.
Richard Shindle
Peter T. Daniels
>
> -
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3879D2...@worldnet.att.net...
> | Jarl Sigurd wrote:
>
> | S L O W .
>
> Sometimes but by no means always. Hear his Brahms Requiem.
>
> | Plus he was saddled with incompetent engineers at Angel (the
> | American branch of EMI) in the 1960s
>
> No he recorded for EMI and his records therefore appeared on Angel. Actually, I
> think he was blessed with some of the best engineers (Larter, Gooch, Boyling)
> and producers (Legge, Grubb) in the business.
If you were in England, then you were never subjected to an Angel LP.
> |; you could barely hear the music
>
> Rubbish. His recordings were noted for their clarity.
If you were in England, then you were never subjected to an Angel LP.
> | most of the time, and it was rare to get an LP that didn't have pressing
> | flaws in it.
If you were in England, then you were never subjected to an Angel LP.
> I never had any problems, at least. Perhaps I was easy to please.....or lucky.
> Tony Duggan, England.
If you were in England, then you were never subjected to an Angel LP.
Which was also the only place we could get Vaughan Williams -- Boult's
series, of course.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > Jarl Sigurd wrote:
> > > My exposure to Otto Klemperer's recordings has been
> > > rather still. Still, what I have heard has not impressed
> > > me overly much. While Klemperer seems to have been
> > > a colorful character with interesting ideas on the staging
> > > of opera, musically he hardly seems to be on the same
> > > level as his contemporaries like Wilhelm Furtwangler and
> > > Bruno Walter. I'm curious what other peoples views are
> > > on Klemperer and what are generally regarded as his best
> > > recordings.
> >
> > American branch of EMI) in the 1960s; you could barely hear the music
> > most of the time, and it was rare to get an LP that didn't have pressing
> > flaws in it.
>
> pressings were indeed dismal but the British ones were better; however,
> it is only on CD can you hear how good the engineering really was.
>
>
> Matthew Passion runs a bit more than 3 1/2 hours. Probably it was on 4
> LPs, perhaps 5. For many of us it is *the* recording of the SMP. No one
> else captures the grandeur and majesty of the piece like Klemperer.
When everyone else did it on 4 and his was on 5 (thank you K. Howson),
that was 25% more cost, which for a college student in 1970 was not
insignificant.
Fortunately, we now have what you-all seem to call HIP. I recently put
on the Richter Messiah, which I used to love, and found it nearly
unbearable now, 20 years later.
> Do you have anything illuminating to say? We know he was often slow. So
> what?
All right; his records were unlistenable, but he usually had the best
lineup of soloists -- Schwarzkopf, Ludwig, Pears, Fischer-Dieskau,
Berry. Happily, I could get most of the same singers on Karajan's
versions of e.g. Missa Solemnis, which were vastly preferable.
Chris Guris
> S L O W . Plus he was saddled with incompetent engineers at Angel (the
> American branch of EMI) in the 1960s; you could barely hear the music
> most of the time, and it was rare to get an LP that didn't have pressing
> flaws in it.
> --
> Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
One of the greats for me, for all the reasons given by the rest of the
Klemperer fans. As to the
sound quality he got from EMI, I couldn't disagree more. Yes, the Angel
pressings were usually
awful, but do try Klemperer on CD. The sound on the "Klemperer Legacy"
discs I have is absolutely superb, wonderfully detailed and warm. I got
hooked on Klemperer only recently from his Schumann 1st and Mendelssohn #4.
I've always loved Bernstein / NYP in the Schumann, but the wind details and
dialogs between the (clearly divided) violins have never registered like
this. In the Mendelssohn, I compared for a friend her (*** Penguin) Abbado
/ LSO. First movement very fast, violins massed to the left, and generally
pretty thick sounding. With Klemp, the room opens up, putting the DG
digital sound to shame. Much slower with every wonderful detail
registering, the violins talk to each other, leaving no doubt in my mind
that Mendelssohn wrote these passages with divided violins clearly in mind.
Slower yes, and infinitely sunnier. "Sounds like a musician next to a
technician" was a perfect summation.
One Klemperer favorite of mine I don't see mentioned is his Symphony
Fantastique. I've always leaned heavily in favor of the manic approach
(Munch, Bernstein EMI, Freesia), so I approached this one with some
trepidation. Here's the timings (source of trepidation) compared to Munch
'54.
16:17 (with repeat), 6:41, 18:10, 5:06, 10:49
13:18 (sans repeat), 6:06, 13:50, 4:29, 8:41
With Munch, and the others I mention, it's right to neurosis, Klemperer's
first mvt. is dreamlike and mysterious, with a real sense of a decline in
the works. His waltz is the best ever, full of details I'd missed (love the
harp). Slow, yes, but the whole things sways magically. He also uses the
cornets, and unlike some others (Davis comes to mind), allows them to be
heard. I've always thought mvt.iii a weak link in this work, but not here.
18:10 of more magic. Mvt. iv becomes "Dragged to the Scaffold",
tremendously ominous and powerful with great brass playing. His finale is
just right for all that's come before, plenty of punch without ever whipping
up the tempo. I still like manic, but wouldn't want to be without this
one. Klemperer's is a Fantastique to sit back and get lost in.
Chris
Chris Guris
> One Klemperer favorite of mine I don't see mentioned is his Symphony
> Fantastique. I've always leaned heavily in favor of the manic approach
> (Munch, Bernstein EMI, Freesia),
Oops, make that Freccia, as in Massimo.
David Hurwitz
He's the ultimate authority on such matters.
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
http://www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
Tony Movshon <to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:woxe4.74$Qq5...@typhoon.nyu.edu...
>
> "David Hurwitz" <hurw...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > I have to thank Tony for remembering Das Lied von der Erde (how could I
> > forget??), and there's a very funny story relating to his Schumann Third
(it
> > was one of his last recordings, and he was into his 80s and conducting
from
> > a wheelchair): during one of the sesssions apparently the old man simply
> > fell asleep and the orchestra continued right on without him. When the
take
> > was over he awoke, looked around, and said "So how did it go?"
>
> I've heard that story many times, but each time it is associated with a
> different piece. This is the firsy time for the Schumann; the most usual
> piece is "comes with" is one of the big Bachs: SMP or BmM.
John L Holubiak
24+ minutes (typically it's 17-19), and the whole performance is about 1
hour 40 minutes in length. I really like the 7th, but Klemperer's
performance is not for me. The outer movements are just too slow.
John
"David Standifer" <agentor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:387AD5C7...@yahoo.com...
> Donald Rice wrote:
>
> > David Standifer wrote:
> > >
> > > "Richard S. Sandmeyer" wrote:
> > >
> > > > I also like his Mahler Symphony 7, but I'll admit it is really too
slow to
> > > > be one's only version.
> > >
> > > I've been narrowly resisting importing this from the UK for a while
now. At
> > > least, I think that's what we're looking at here:
> > >
> > > EMI CMS7641472 £17.00 £14.47 Format: CD 2CD Set
> > > Gustav Mahler Symphony No.7 in E minor (Mahler). Symphony No.2
(Klemperer).
> > > String Quartet No.7 (Klemperer).
> > > New Philharmonia Orchestra Otto Klemperer Philharmonia Qt
> > >
> > > (Is the coupling really Klemperer compositions? I haven't read
anything about
> > > this...)
> > >
> > > So: does anyone care to push me over the edge?
> > >
> > > I already have several versions: Abbado, Rattle, Sinopoli, Tilson
Thomas. The
> > > relative slowness of Sinopoli doesn't bother me, so I've been terribly
> > > curious....
> > >
> > > David Standifer
> >
> > The cd really includes compositions BY Klemperer and the absolute
> > slowness of the Mahler especially compared to Rattle, is numbing.
>
> I feel compelled to note that slowness compared to anything is not
"absolute" but
> its opposite, "relative." Thanks for chiming in, and for fueling my
pedantic bent!
>
> David
>
David Hurwitz
forget??), and there's a very funny story relating to his Schumann Third (it
was one of his last recordings, and he was into his 80s and conducting from
a wheelchair): during one of the sesssions apparently the old man simply
fell asleep and the orchestra continued right on without him. When the take
was over he awoke, looked around, and said "So how did it go?"
Tony Movshon <to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:Ezle4.11$Qq5...@typhoon.nyu.edu...
>
> "David Hurwitz" <hurw...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > I think that Klemperer was one of the great conductors of our century.
> > ... I think his discography on EMI has a very large
> > percentage of excellent performances, a better average than many other
> > conductors.
>
> Absolutely agreed. And unlike so many other conductors, Klemperer was
> able almost always to be both distinctive and interesting, whatever he
> conducted. With the Philharmonia, Klemperer perfected a wonderful and
> distinctive orchestral balance with prominent winds, low strings and
> drums, which is far more to my taste than the violin-heavy balance
> favored by so meany others. AFAIK he always divided the violins, which
> reduces the weight of the massed violin tone and time and again reveals
> the antiphonal contrast between the lines. The Klemperer sound was not
> always seductive - it could sound uncompromisingly craggy - but it
> always serves the music well. I'm not sure how it would work in, say,
> Scheherazade, but that's not the point. His other distinctive feature
> was extraordinary attention to rhythm and dynamics, whetever the tempo;
> his insistence on sustaining tone throughout a note and phrase gives his
> performances a lift and life that elude many others who play slowly.
> Klemperer was usually but not always captured well by EMI in the studio,
> but his "sound" can be heard beautifully in the live Beethoven 9th
> recently issued on Testament and noted by DH.
>
> > My list of essential Klemperer, all on EMI:
>
> Excellent list snipped, additions:
>
> Beethoven 7 (the 1961, not the milder 1955)
> Schumann 3 (he's the only one who takes it slowly enough to let the
> Rhine really flow without letting the rhythm flag)
> Mozart symphony 25 and piano cto 25 w/ Barenboim (specific antidotes for
> the "Klemperer is slow" canard)
> Bruckner 9 and Mahler 9 (great performances both; in both what one might
> call Klemperer's "craggy objectivism" leads to an enormous cumulative
> impact)
> Bach B minor mass (grand and intensely moving, slow without a hint of
> bloat)
> Beethoven piano concertos with Barenboim (inexplicably neglected,
> characterful, pointed, powerful, with beautiful pianism from the
> young Barenboim)
> Mahler Das Lied von der Erde (many people's reference choice)
> Bruckner 4 (the live Bavarian Radio performance now on EMI is IMHO
> superior to the EMI studio one, and the live 1947 Concertgebouw now
> on Tahra is fascinating for contrast; it's hard to imagine this is
> the same conductor).
> Mahler 2 (the live Bavarian one, in case that's not what DH had in
> mind)
> Mendelssohn 3 and 4 (poised, balanced, with a dark Scottish and a
> light-footed Italian, each wonderful)
>
> To the degree that it makes sense to say something like this, Klemperer
> is my favorite conductor. Meaning that if I had to choose a recording of
> almost anything, unheard, I would pick his. He was that good.
>
Yoram Regev
musical, orchestral in balance and sound, and enlightening. I heard no
performance of his which is bad, although there are some I like more
than others. His Brahms, Mahler (Das Lied is for me one of the greatest
recordings of all time of any music; and his BRSO live 2nd), Beethoven
and Mozart.
Saying he's slow does not mean much. I think mostly he is as fast or
faster than many recordings. I count him better than Furtwangler or
Walter. To me he is more consistent and more "professional".
Yoram
Jarl Sigurd wrote:
> My exposure to Otto Klemperer's recordings has been
> rather still. Still, what I have heard has not impressed
> me overly much. While Klemperer seems to have been
> a colorful character with interesting ideas on the staging
> of opera, musically he hardly seems to be on the same
> level as his contemporaries like Wilhelm Furtwangler and
> Bruno Walter. I'm curious what other peoples views are
> on Klemperer and what are generally regarded as his best
> recordings.
>
Richard S. Sandmeyer
<hurw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I think that Klemperer was one of the great conductors of our century. I
> prefer him to Furtwangler, generally, and find his sober, unsentimental
> approach to music making very powerful in a lot of the standard German
> repertoire, as well as revelatory in a limited range of other works. His
> preference in recording for a forward wind balance allows a great amount of
> interesting instrumental detail to register without his having to fiddle
> with the basic tempo. And although he had a reputation in his late years as
> a "slow" conductor, this is too simplistic. His slow movements, generally,
> are among the swiftest on disc (especially in Bruckner), and some of his
> Allegros could move very quickly (first movement of Tchaikovsky's 5th,
> finale of Brahms 4th). I think his discography on EMI has a very large
> percentage of excellent performances, a better average than many other
> conductors. My list of essential Klemperer, all on EMI:
>
> Brahms: Symphonies 1 - 4, German Requiem
> Beethoven: Fidelio
> Wagner: Flying Dutchman
> Wagner: Orchestral Music (2 CDs)
> Mahler: Symphonies Nos. 2 and 4
> Bruckner: Symphonies Nos. 4, 6 and 7
> Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 5
> Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 (the live one on Testament)
> Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 3, 5 and 6 (some prefer his mono's of 3 and 5)
> Beethoven: Overtures
> Mozart: Symphonies 39 - 41
> Mozart: The Magic Flute and Don Giovanni
> Mendelssohn: A Midsummer Night's Dream
> Bach: St. Matthew Passion
> Schubert: Symphony Nos. 5, 8 and 9
> Haydn: Symphonies Nos. 92 "Oxford," 95, 101 "Clock" and 102
> Schumann: Symphonies Nos. 1 "Spring" and 4
>
> --
> David Hurwitz
> Executive Editor
> http://www.classicstoday.com
> dhur...@classicstoday.com
>
> Jarl Sigurd <jarls...@geocities.com> wrote in message
> news:SXae4.202945$5r2.5...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
> > My exposure to Otto Klemperer's recordings has been
> > rather still. Still, what I have heard has not impressed
> > me overly much. While Klemperer seems to have been
> > a colorful character with interesting ideas on the staging
> > of opera, musically he hardly seems to be on the same
> > level as his contemporaries like Wilhelm Furtwangler and
> > Bruno Walter. I'm curious what other peoples views are
> > on Klemperer and what are generally regarded as his best
> > recordings.
> >
> > Jarl Sigurd
> >
> > to listen to a concerto that I composed last fall, visit
> > http://geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Pavilion/4085/concerto.html
> >
> >
Joining this thread rather late, I'd add these to the above list (others
have already mentioned several of these):
Mozart: Symphonies 25,29,31,33,34,35,36,38
Mozart: Overtures to Don Giovanni, Zauberflöte, Cosi fan tutti, Figaro,
Entführung, and Clemenza di Tito
Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 25 (with Barenboim)
Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, Serenade 12, Adagio & Fugue
Haydn: Symphonies 88,100,104
Beethoven: Missa Solemnis
Mahler: Symphony 9
Bruckner: Symphony 5
Beethoven: Symphony 4 (BRSO version)
I also like his Mahler Symphony 7, but I'll admit it is really too slow to
be one's only version.
Rich Sandmeyer
richsand at iximd dot com
Philip Peters
Orchestra a few times in the fifties. His was an *overwhelming* and
*authoritarian* presence although he hardly moved at all. Of course I was
young and impressionable at the time but Klemperer has remained one of my
most admired conductors. His Beethoven was my *Beethoven Bible* for a long
time and I still rate it higher than most. If I had to choose *one* SMP it
probably would be Klemperer's (although I love many later HIP-SMP's a lot
and would rather not be forced to choose).
Philip
Tony Movshon
rush...@interaccess.com (Michael Weston) writes:
> Tony Movshon (to...@cns.nyu.edu) wrote:
> : Absolutely agreed. And unlike so many other conductors, Klemperer was
> : able almost always to be both distinctive and interesting, whatever he
> : conducted. With the Philharmonia, Klemperer perfected a wonderful and
> : distinctive orchestral balance with prominent winds, low strings and
> : drums, which is far more to my taste than the violin-heavy balance
> : favored by so meany others. AFAIK he always divided the violins, which
>
> recording managers? One would not guess that Klemperer was a fine
> orchestra technician from interviews with those involved in the
> recordings.
I don't think that divided violin were a consistent feature of either
EMI recordings or Philharmonia recordings with other conductors, but
I'll do some spot-checking and let you know if that impression is wrong.
David Standifer
> Joining this thread rather late, I'd add these to the above list (others
> have already mentioned several of these):
>
> Mozart: Symphonies 25,29,31,33,34,35,36,38
> Mozart: Overtures to Don Giovanni, Zauberflöte, Cosi fan tutti, Figaro,
> Entführung, and Clemenza di Tito
> Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 25 (with Barenboim)
> Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, Serenade 12, Adagio & Fugue
> Haydn: Symphonies 88,100,104
> Beethoven: Missa Solemnis
> Mahler: Symphony 9
> Bruckner: Symphony 5
> Beethoven: Symphony 4 (BRSO version)
>
> I also like his Mahler Symphony 7, but I'll admit it is really too slow to
> be one's only version.
I've been narrowly resisting importing this from the UK for a while now. At
Tony Movshon
"David Hurwitz" <hurw...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> I have to thank Tony for remembering Das Lied von der Erde (how could I
> forget??), and there's a very funny story relating to his Schumann Third (it
> was one of his last recordings, and he was into his 80s and conducting from
> a wheelchair): during one of the sesssions apparently the old man simply
> fell asleep and the orchestra continued right on without him. When the take
> was over he awoke, looked around, and said "So how did it go?"
I've heard that story many times, but each time it is associated with a
different piece. This is the firsy time for the Schumann; the most usual
piece is "comes with" is one of the big Bachs: SMP or BmM.
--
David Standifer
> IMO, Klemperer's best work generally speaking pre-dates the break up of
> the old Philharmonia (immediately reconstituted as the "New
> Philharmonia"), although there are some great New Philharmonia
> performances as well: Das Lied von der Erde (begun with the Old and
> finished with New); Mahler's 9th; Bruckner's 6th; Mozart's Zauberflöte
> (sans dialogue); and (a controversial choice due to tempi, but I love
> it), Bruckner's 5th. About anything with the Philharmonia is worth
> listening to. The Mahler 2nd, Bruckner 4th & 7th (the 7th is
> unfortunately transferred to CD pitched slightly flat), and Brahms
> recordings are as good as it gets.
Is the Bruckner 7 available in the Western world? I haven't been able to
locate it. Did just acquire the 5 thru the UK, though.
> To understand where I am coming from, I think it says something that I
> generally do NOT like overly slow conductors (I won't repeat my opinion
> of Celibidache here), but I am still a Klemperer enthusiast. The
> strength of his musicianship sweeps away all criticism for me in the
> vast majority of his recordings.
Agreed. The Rondo Burleske of his Mahler 9, for example, is surely too slow
for most of its duration, but the cumulative power is nonetheless
shattering, and the characterization is more dead-on than anyone else's,
IMHO. And I love the very manic increase in speed at the end.
His live Mahler 2 is still my favorite...
David Standifer
Claes Liljeqvist
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> When everyone else did it on 4 and his was on 5 (thank you K. Howson),
> that was 25% more cost, which for a college student in 1970 was not
> insignificant.
The Klemperer SMP was actually on four and a half LPs, where the "half"
was not broken in any way but single-sided (SAXS 2446) with a beautiful
pattern pressed on the empty side (plus a warning: "Do not play this side!")
Perhaps, or probably, the 5th disc was not charged at full cost.
/Claes
Curtis Croulet
of the
> sesssions apparently the old man simply fell asleep
Some of this performance sounds as though he was asleep.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
Donald Rice
David Standifer wrote:
>
> "Richard S. Sandmeyer" wrote:
>
> > I also like his Mahler Symphony 7, but I'll admit it is really too slow to
> > be one's only version.
>
> I've been narrowly resisting importing this from the UK for a while now. At
> least, I think that's what we're looking at here:
>
> EMI CMS7641472 £17.00 £14.47 Format: CD 2CD Set
> Gustav Mahler Symphony No.7 in E minor (Mahler). Symphony No.2 (Klemperer).
> String Quartet No.7 (Klemperer).
> New Philharmonia Orchestra Otto Klemperer Philharmonia Qt
>
> (Is the coupling really Klemperer compositions? I haven't read anything about
> this...)
>
> So: does anyone care to push me over the edge?
>
> I already have several versions: Abbado, Rattle, Sinopoli, Tilson Thomas. The
> relative slowness of Sinopoli doesn't bother me, so I've been terribly
> curious....
>
> David Standifer
The cd really includes compositions BY Klemperer and the absolute
slowness of the Mahler especially compared to Rattle, is numbing. Clear
textures or no, I don't think this performance does justice to the
music.
His compositions bored me but I have a short attention span, especially
after struggling to stay awake through the Mahler. (-8
Don
--
Put a "1" between don and rice to email me. (don1...@excite.com)
the @home.com works just fine without the "1"
David Standifer
> David Standifer wrote:
> >
> > "Richard S. Sandmeyer" wrote:
> >
> > > I also like his Mahler Symphony 7, but I'll admit it is really too slow to
> > > be one's only version.
> >
> > I've been narrowly resisting importing this from the UK for a while now. At
> > least, I think that's what we're looking at here:
> >
> > EMI CMS7641472 £17.00 £14.47 Format: CD 2CD Set
> > Gustav Mahler Symphony No.7 in E minor (Mahler). Symphony No.2 (Klemperer).
> > String Quartet No.7 (Klemperer).
> > New Philharmonia Orchestra Otto Klemperer Philharmonia Qt
> >
> > (Is the coupling really Klemperer compositions? I haven't read anything about
> > this...)
> >
> > So: does anyone care to push me over the edge?
> >
> > I already have several versions: Abbado, Rattle, Sinopoli, Tilson Thomas. The
> > relative slowness of Sinopoli doesn't bother me, so I've been terribly
> > curious....
> >
> > David Standifer
>
> The cd really includes compositions BY Klemperer and the absolute
> slowness of the Mahler especially compared to Rattle, is numbing.
I feel compelled to note that slowness compared to anything is not "absolute" but
Tony Movshon
> > Do you have anything illuminating to say? We know he was often slow. So
> > what?
>
> All right; his records were unlistenable, but he usually had the best
> lineup of soloists -- Schwarzkopf, Ludwig, Pears, Fischer-Dieskau,
> Berry. Happily, I could get most of the same singers on Karajan's
> versions of e.g. Missa Solemnis, which were vastly preferable.
OK, you prefer Karajan's Missa to Klemperer's. Want to tell us *why*?
Klemperer is not especially slow in the Missa, and Karajan is no speed
demon. The singing in Karajan's EMI recording is very lovely, I agree,
but don't you find it all a bit smooth and perhaps a teensy bit empty?
"Unlistenable"? You might be surprised if you actually sample a few
items recommended in this thread. On CD, so you don't have to worry
about the Angel LP problem.
Tony Movshon
I rather liked it the other way.
Tony Movshon
"David Hurwitz" <hurw...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> I wrote
> He's the ultimate authority on such matters.
Right you are; I had forgotten that. Still, if the VPO could finish off
a very good Brahms Haydn Variations for Kertesz after he was dead, I'm
not surprised that the NPO could do a nice job with Klemp merely
snoozing up front.
Peter T. Daniels
You don't seem to have been in the US ca. 1970 either; it was 10 sides
... the only one-sided LP I ever saw was the Harnoncourt B-minor Mass;
the reverse of the last side was mirror-finished, and no, they didn't
charge any less for it. (Hated it, by the way -- still can't stand his
legato-less approach. Like the Leonhardt portion of the cantata series,
but you could never get one volume of it with Leonhardt only, so I
didn't get any of them.)
Peter T. Daniels
We are talking about NINETEEN-SEVENTY. I haven't heard a Karajan item in
years, and I doubt I'd like them any more. I also generally don't buy
CDs of performances I have on LP.
I never tried a Klemperer Missa Solemnis, and I never tried a Karajan
Matthew Passion. I could not afford to buy multiple recordings of a
single work, when there was so much music out there I had never heard!
I generally took Haitink for my symphonies.
Tony Movshon
David Standifer <agentor...@yahoo.com> writes:
> "Richard S. Sandmeyer" wrote:
> > I also like his Mahler Symphony 7, but I'll admit it is really too slow to
> > be one's only version.
>
> I've been narrowly resisting importing this from the UK for a while now. At
> least, I think that's what we're looking at here:
>
> EMI CMS7641472 £17.00 £14.47 Format: CD 2CD Set
> Gustav Mahler Symphony No.7 in E minor (Mahler). Symphony No.2 (Klemperer).
> String Quartet No.7 (Klemperer).
> New Philharmonia Orchestra Otto Klemperer Philharmonia Qt
>
> (Is the coupling really Klemperer compositions? I haven't read anything about
> this...)
>
> So: does anyone care to push me over the edge?
If you like Klemperer, this one is definitely worth considering. It *is*
astoundingly slow, at least in i, ii, and v. Timing comparisons with
Chailly (probably my favorite), Abbado, and Scherchen/VSO
Klemp Chailly Abbado Scherchen
i. 27.47 24.51 21.27 20.43
ii. 22.08 16.12 16.37 15.41
iii. 10.28 10.23 8.55 9.10
iv. 15.42 13.28 14.01 14.27
v. 24.15 19.00 17.45 17.59
tell part of the story. In truth, the 3 middle movements go beautifully
(even ii. at a very dreamy tempo), but the outer movements do tend to
drag. Combined with Klemperer's usualy clarity of line, the outer
movements have a clinical, almost didactic quality -- it's like hearing
one of those exploded engineering drawings that show the relationship of
each part to the assembled whole. It's fascinating, but probably not the
way you would usually want to hear the symphony go.
The couplings are compositions by Klemperer, and I don't recall much
about them.
It may be worth waiting for this one to appear in the Klemperer legacy
series. A number of things seem to be out of print right now, because
EMI deleted the old series before completing the new. I presume
everything will find its way back into the catalog in the end, and the
new series is midpriced.
Used copies are also not uncommon.
ElShaddai Edwards
It's fascinating to compare it as a whole to a completely impulsive and
neurotic performance like Chung on DG. Hard to believe that they're using
the same score! Don't know what Berlioz would say, but Klemperer's
conclusion (iv and v) is so completely convincing that I have a hard time
with Munch et al who just whip through at a breakneck pace. I've found few
others who even come close to conveying the same inevitable and ominous
sense of the macabre.
ElShaddai Edwards
Chris Guris <gu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:387A8E05...@mindspring.com...
<snip>
> One Klemperer favorite of mine I don't see mentioned is his Symphony
> Fantastique. I've always leaned heavily in favor of the manic approach
Alan P Dawes
David Hurwitz <hurw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I have to thank Tony for remembering Das Lied von der Erde (how could I
> forget??), and there's a very funny story relating to his Schumann Third
> (it was one of his last recordings, and he was into his 80s and
> conducting from a wheelchair): during one of the sesssions apparently
> the old man simply fell asleep and the orchestra continued right on
> without him. When the take was over he awoke, looked around, and said
> "So how did it go?"
This reminds me of a very sad memory I have of him at the Festival Hall
conducting the Mahler 7th - it must have been one of his last performances
and he was obviously in great pain. In places it nearly fell apart as he
seemed to 'nod off' and the orchestra, particularly the leader, had to
work hard to hold the music together. When you consider what he suffered
in the last few years it is surprising how much he did achieve then.
On a happier note, add to those performances already mentioned on this
newsgroup that shouldn't be missed, his 1961 recording of the Siegfried
Idyll using the original instrumentation. It's included on the latest
Klemperer Legacy 2CD set (I wonder why HMV were selling it for the same
price as the single CDs in this series?) along with the Mahler 9th and
Strauss Metamorphosen.
Someone recommended his later Beethoven 7th in stereo rather than the
earlier 1950s mono one. However the earlier one was also recorded in
experimental stereo and was issued in a boxed set in the 1970s with the
mono 3rd and 5th. Although the stereo sound isn't all that good, I find
this lighter, more energetic performance more enjoyable than the later
one, the interplay between 1st and 2nd violins to left and right being
well caught.
Alan
--
--. --. --. --. : : --- --- ----------------------------
|_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | alan....@argonet.co.uk
| | |\ | | | | |\| | |
| | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | Using an Acorn RiscPC
Alan P Dawes
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> When everyone else did it on 4 and his was on 5 (thank you K. Howson),
> that was 25% more cost, which for a college student in 1970 was not
> insignificant.
I have the EMI LPs next to me - the boxed set is HMV SLS 827 containing 4
LPs numbered ASD2793 to ASD2796.
David R L Porter
Kubelik's :)) I also have Tennstedt, and Rosbaud in mono, and have
enjoyed but don't own Rattle. Klemperer earns his keep, but I hope
his never ends up as my only version. Its virtues for me are the
tonal qualities; the opening is glorious, though lacking real mystery.
I have it on an EMI two-cassette set, where even on tape the
recording is remarkably good. As it happens, I was listening to it
this morning before I chanced on this thread (new millennium
resolution: if I'm not going to weed records from my collection I
must listen to them at least once a year each).
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Klemperer's own compositions. I
have his recording of his second symphony and the 'Merry Waltz' from
his opera 'Das Ziel'. Reminscent to my ears of early Stravinsky and
Weill (and some very, very close approximations to Mahler in the slow
movement of the symphony), it's enjoyable (if hardly profound) music
and Klemperer is certainly awake for the whole recording. I'd be
interested to know from anyone who knows the music well whether they
feel he is unduly relaxed in this performance -- I've no idea what
the score markings are.
A string quartet has also been recorded and is well spoken of. I've
not heard it. The tape of the other works is Klemperer Edition ED 29
0332 4 237, and also contains the Weill Dreigroschenoper Suite. I
don't know if it ever made it to CD: it seems to have been very
briefly in the catalogues here in the UK.
--
Best wishes,
David R L Porter
from c...@es.pp.se (Claes Liljeqvist) contains these words:
> The Klemperer SMP was actually on four and a half LPs, where the "half"
> was not broken in any way but single-sided (SAXS 2446) with a beautiful
> pattern pressed on the empty side (plus a warning: "Do not play this side!")
> Perhaps, or probably, the 5th disc was not charged at full cost.
This was quite common practice: my LPs of Harnoncourt's B Minor Mass
had a single-sided last LP. Can't remember if it affected cost, but
it was really handy for checking the anti-skating mechanism on one's
turntable bias system :))
Thomas Deas
"Alan P Dawes" <alan....@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:497eadddda...@argonet.co.uk...
>
>
> On a happier note, add to those performances already mentioned on this
> newsgroup that shouldn't be missed, his 1961 recording of the Siegfried
> Idyll using the original instrumentation. It's included on the latest
> Klemperer Legacy 2CD set (I wonder why HMV were selling it for the same
> price as the single CDs in this series?)
In Oxford St? I assumed it was a happy mistake.
Claes Liljeqvist
<alan....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> I have the EMI LPs next to me - the boxed set is HMV SLS 827 containing 4
> LPs numbered ASD2793 to ASD2796.
Is that the SMP? Then it was seemingly later reissued squeezed onto 4 LPs.
Improved cutting technology in the early 1970s (or worse sound...).
/Claes
Tony Movshon
> > "Unlistenable"? You might be surprised if you actually sample a few
> > items recommended in this thread. On CD, so you don't have to worry
> > about the Angel LP problem.
>
> We are talking about NINETEEN-SEVENTY. I haven't heard a Karajan item in
> years, and I doubt I'd like them any more. I also generally don't buy
> CDs of performances I have on LP.
>
> I never tried a Klemperer Missa Solemnis, and I never tried a Karajan
> Matthew Passion. I could not afford to buy multiple recordings of a
> single work, when there was so much music out there I had never heard!
Reasonable enough, but why then are you offering comparative judgements
about someone whose work you haven't compared?
I would *highly* recommend that you try to get the Klemperer Missa
Solemnis on CD. I think you will be impressed and perhaps surprised both
by the sound and by the quality of the performance.
> I generally took Haitink for my symphonies.
Just be sure not to take any water with it.
Tony Duggan
Claes Liljeqvist <c...@es.pp.se> wrote in message
news:cl-110100...@d212-151-233-45.swipnet.se...
| In article <387A69...@worldnet.att.net>, "Peter T. Daniels"
| <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
|
| > When everyone else did it on 4 and his was on 5 (thank you K. Howson),
| > that was 25% more cost, which for a college student in 1970 was not
| > insignificant.
|
| The Klemperer SMP was actually on four and a half LPs, where the "half"
| was not broken in any way but single-sided (SAXS 2446) with a beautiful
| pattern pressed on the empty side (plus a warning: "Do not play this side!")
That was the original issue. Later on, pressing technology got better and the
re-issue WAS on 4 discs.
--
Tony Duggan, England.
My developing Mahler recordings survey:
Now containing Symphonies 1,2,4,5 and DLVDE:
http://www.musicweb.force9.co.uk/music/Mahler/index.html
K. Howson-Jan
Capitol/Angel spread it out on 5. However, we are talking about picayune
matters here. The total time (I timed it and wrote the times down on the
booklet, because Angel didn't give out that information in that era) is indeed
about 3-1/2 hours, split roughly as 90 minutes for part I and 2 hours for part
II.
Kang
Claes Liljeqvist wrote:
> The Klemperer SMP was actually on four and a half LPs, where the "half"
> was not broken in any way but single-sided (SAXS 2446) with a beautiful
> pattern pressed on the empty side (plus a warning: "Do not play this side!")
>
> Perhaps, or probably, the 5th disc was not charged at full cost.
>
> /Claes
jan winter
movements of course were necessary, but he was committed with his
whole being. With the first note there was such a strong inspiration,
which he was able to communicate to the orchestra. I can still
remember the feeling. It was a hypnotical way of conducting." (Hubert
Barwahser, for many years 1st flutist of the Concertgebouworkest)
Between 1946 and 1964 Klemperer was a frequent guest in Amsterdam and
he certainly brought the best out of the orchestra. The 1951 Holland
Festival Mahler's are a case in point, but there are other live
recordings with the CO. I love especially the one on Archiphon with
Janacek's Sinfonietta with the Dutch brass tradition at its most
glorious, Bartok's Viola Concerto with Primrose and the absolute most
intense Verklärte Nacht I've ever heard. Hypnotic indeed! To quote
composer and critic Matthijs Vermeulen: "We did not know that the
Concertgebouw's violins are capable of such expressive, manifold
sounds. With every note Klemperer made the score and himself
unforgettable." (1955)
--
regards,
jan winter, amsterdam
(j.wi...@xs4all.nl)
music is the healing force of the universe
(Albert Ayler)
Richard Landau
<tj...@spam.ac.uk> writes
It's always selling for the price of 1 these days, both at Bond St, and
Oxford Circus. A real bargain.
--
Richard Landau, Hampstead, London, UK
Ric...@atelier48.demon.co.uk
A. Brain
have seen a couple of different ones (maybe remasterings or whatever)
--
A. Brain
Remove "nospam" when replying via email
Tony Movshon <to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:YMMe4.12$6w6...@typhoon.nyu.edu...
A. Brain
Qs: What is the OK Bruckner 7th referred to? (Only one I see in the
catalogue is a live one from the '50s.)
C: I too like Klemperer and have a lot of his recordings on LP, only a few
on CD so far. Another good Klemperer recording is Mozart Serenades 10 (13
winds) and 11; I have the CD but I think it's out of print now--there was a
mini-Klemperer series back in the early days of CDs, I guess.
--
A. Brain
Remove "nospam" when replying via email
Richard S. Sandmeyer <rich...@iximd.com> wrote in message
news:richsand-100...@pm3-1-ppp24.iximd.com...
> In article <85bg6a$7j0$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "David Hurwitz"
> <hurw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > I think that Klemperer was one of the great conductors of our century. I
> > prefer him to Furtwangler, generally, and find his sober, unsentimental
> > approach to music making very powerful in a lot of the standard German
> > repertoire, as well as revelatory in a limited range of other works. His
> > preference in recording for a forward wind balance allows a great amount
of
> > interesting instrumental detail to register without his having to fiddle
> > with the basic tempo. And although he had a reputation in his late years
as
> > a "slow" conductor, this is too simplistic. His slow movements,
generally,
> > are among the swiftest on disc (especially in Bruckner), and some of his
> > Allegros could move very quickly (first movement of Tchaikovsky's 5th,
> > finale of Brahms 4th). I think his discography on EMI has a very large
> > percentage of excellent performances, a better average than many other
> > conductors. My list of essential Klemperer, all on EMI:
> >
> > Brahms: Symphonies 1 - 4, German Requiem
> > Beethoven: Fidelio
> > Wagner: Flying Dutchman
> > Wagner: Orchestral Music (2 CDs)
> > Mahler: Symphonies Nos. 2 and 4
> > Bruckner: Symphonies Nos. 4, 6 and 7
> > Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 5
> > Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 (the live one on Testament)
> > Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 3, 5 and 6 (some prefer his mono's of 3 and
5)
> > Beethoven: Overtures
> > Mozart: Symphonies 39 - 41
> > Mozart: The Magic Flute and Don Giovanni
> > Mendelssohn: A Midsummer Night's Dream
> > Bach: St. Matthew Passion
> > Schubert: Symphony Nos. 5, 8 and 9
> > Haydn: Symphonies Nos. 92 "Oxford," 95, 101 "Clock" and 102
> > Schumann: Symphonies Nos. 1 "Spring" and 4
> >
> > --
> > David Hurwitz
> > Executive Editor
> > http://www.classicstoday.com
> > dhur...@classicstoday.com
> >
> > Jarl Sigurd <jarls...@geocities.com> wrote in message
> > news:SXae4.202945$5r2.5...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
> > > My exposure to Otto Klemperer's recordings has been
> > > rather still. Still, what I have heard has not impressed
> > > me overly much. While Klemperer seems to have been
> > > a colorful character with interesting ideas on the staging
> > > of opera, musically he hardly seems to be on the same
> > > level as his contemporaries like Wilhelm Furtwangler and
> > > Bruno Walter. I'm curious what other peoples views are
> > > on Klemperer and what are generally regarded as his best
> > > recordings.
> > >
> > > Jarl Sigurd
> > >
> > > to listen to a concerto that I composed last fall, visit
> > > http://geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Pavilion/4085/concerto.html
> > >
> > >
>
> Joining this thread rather late, I'd add these to the above list (others
> have already mentioned several of these):
>
> Mozart: Symphonies 25,29,31,33,34,35,36,38
> Mozart: Overtures to Don Giovanni, Zauberflöte, Cosi fan tutti, Figaro,
> Entführung, and Clemenza di Tito
> Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 25 (with Barenboim)
> Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, Serenade 12, Adagio & Fugue
> Haydn: Symphonies 88,100,104
> Beethoven: Missa Solemnis
> Mahler: Symphony 9
> Bruckner: Symphony 5
> Beethoven: Symphony 4 (BRSO version)
>
> I also like his Mahler Symphony 7, but I'll admit it is really too slow to
> be one's only version.
>
> Rich Sandmeyer
> richsand at iximd dot com
Tony Movshon
Alan P Dawes <alan....@argonet.co.uk> writes:
> Someone recommended his later Beethoven 7th in stereo rather than the
> earlier 1950s mono one. However the earlier one was also recorded in
> experimental stereo and was issued in a boxed set in the 1970s with the
> mono 3rd and 5th. Although the stereo sound isn't all that good, I find
> this lighter, more energetic performance more enjoyable than the later
> one, the interplay between 1st and 2nd violins to left and right being
> well caught.
Without fanfare, in the Klemperer Legacy series EMI has released the
stereo version of the 1955 7th rather than the 1961. You're in good
company preferring the earlier one, but not mine :-(. To get the 1961
performance, you need to go back to the previous CD issue.
There is also a third studio recording of the 7th, done in 1970 with the
NPO, and released on CD only, afaik, in Japan. It's pret-t-ty slow ...
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <387A69...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > When everyone else did it on 4 and his was on 5 (thank you K. Howson),
> > that was 25% more cost, which for a college student in 1970 was not
> > insignificant.
>
> LPs numbered ASD2793 to ASD2796.
Do you really have such a problem with the existence of an ocean between
us?
THE ANGEL SET IS ON 5 LPs IN LOUSY PRESSINGS.
Peter T. Daniels
headed up to Yonkers for lunch and a peek in at the inadequately small
Tower Records. Not much Klemperer was on hand, but this Fantastique was.
(Including Hansel & Gretel excerpts!)
The sound is certainly splendid. The fault clearly lay with the Angel
people.
The timings are not all that longer than other versions; the notes tell
us it was the first time the 1st-movement repeat (with an extra bar) was
recorded, which right there might account for all, or more than all, the
difference.
I'm not sure anyone could be in love with the woman in the first
statement of the ideé fixe ... she seems positively neurotic! The 2nd
mvt. seems to me to fail -- there isn't the slightest Viennese Schwung
to the waltz! -- which, perhaps, is anachronistic for Berlioz, but it
sounds most peculiar without it. I have no idea what he was getting at
in the 3d mvt. But you're certainly right about the March and the
Witches' Sabbath.
It also says that he very rarely played this work: he had been mostly an
opera conductor before moving to the Los Angeles(!) Philharmonic in 1933
and had to learn a lot of symphonic repertoire in a short time, this in
1936, and then not for another 25 years. (So Werner Klemperer was raised
in L.A.? He was 14 in 1933, which accounts for the faint German accent
he retains.)
While looking around for Klemperers (there was one Mozart, incl. the
Maurerische Trauermusik, and two Mahler 2nds, both on EMI in the Legacy
series -- Philharmonia with Baker, and Bayerische Rundfunk with Ludwig,
but I didn't remember which version was recommended yesterday; their
timings are almost identical, and just about the same as Tilson
Thomas's), I came across a couple of interesting $80 boxes: all of
Münchinger's big Bach (Passions, Mass, oratorios, Magnificat) on 10
discs, and Munch's Berlioz from the 1950s (it doesn't say how many of
them are stereo) on 8 disks -- I have some of them in LP (but lent the
Enfance du Christ to the same voice teacher who introduced me to
Schumann ... as well as the vocal album of Sondheim's Merrily We Roll
Along, which is his best music and would be a lot harder to replace ...
and never got them back).
And also -- does anyone know about this? -- Robert Shaw's B Minor Mass
from 1960. The box says his national tour and this recording were what
made it a repertory staple for Americans.
And ... which I did succumb to ... a Matthew Passion featuring Kathleen
Ferrier, from 1947-48, sung in English; minus some repeats and one bass
aria, filled out with Pergolesi Stabat Mater. I just put it on ... (The
Beecham/Goosens Messiah was there, but only in highlights.)
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > I wrote:
> > > "Unlistenable"? You might be surprised if you actually sample a few
> > > items recommended in this thread. On CD, so you don't have to worry
> > > about the Angel LP problem.
> >
> > We are talking about NINETEEN-SEVENTY. I haven't heard a Karajan item in
> > years, and I doubt I'd like them any more. I also generally don't buy
> > CDs of performances I have on LP.
> >
> > I never tried a Klemperer Missa Solemnis, and I never tried a Karajan
> > Matthew Passion. I could not afford to buy multiple recordings of a
> > single work, when there was so much music out there I had never heard!
>
> Reasonable enough, but why then are you offering comparative judgements
> about someone whose work you haven't compared?
I don't know what you're talking about. DGG (as it was then) presented
the same oratorio singers far better than Angel. Period!
> I would *highly* recommend that you try to get the Klemperer Missa
> Solemnis on CD. I think you will be impressed and perhaps surprised both
> by the sound and by the quality of the performance.
>
> > I generally took Haitink for my symphonies.
>
> Just be sure not to take any water with it.
Oh, and Julius Katchen for piano, esp. Brahms, and his concertos led me
to Istvan Kertesz. It didn't hurt that they were often on London Stereo
Treasury, a budget label.
Peter T. Daniels
> It may be worth waiting for this one to appear in the Klemperer legacy
> series. A number of things seem to be out of print right now, because
> EMI deleted the old series before completing the new. I presume
> everything will find its way back into the catalog in the end, and the
> new series is midpriced.
>
> Used copies are also not uncommon.
Hmmm ... doesn't that say something right there?
K. Howson-Jan
Just that cheapskates like me pick up a lot of good recordings from used
CD stores and pawnshops--all it takes is patience and a bit of money.
You seem to be averse to Klemps, perhaps related to some of the mediocre
pressings State-side. That's OK (not a pun), just as the Klemps
admirers are not shrine-builders who are hearing and not listening.
There are some Klemps recordings that I adore, and others that I'm not
interested in getting, unless of course I see it dirt cheap at some used
place.
Kang
Thomas Deas
"A. Brain" <abr...@nospam.att.net> wrote in message
news:85gcmn$47v$2...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
> I like the Klemperer Missa too and have it on LP. Which CD issue is best?
I
> have seen a couple of different ones (maybe remasterings or whatever)
There's an EMI and a Vox. I'm told the EMI is the one to have; I'm waiting
for the slim cheap remaster which is, I hope, coming.
Richard S. Sandmeyer
<charm...@msn.com> wrote:
> I haven't heard the Klemperer 7th in many years, but the Finale times in at
> 24+ minutes (typically it's 17-19), and the whole performance is about 1
> hour 40 minutes in length. I really like the 7th, but Klemperer's
> performance is not for me. The outer movements are just too slow.
>
> John
>
> "David Standifer" <agentor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:387AD5C7...@yahoo.com...
> > Donald Rice wrote:
> >
> > > David Standifer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Richard S. Sandmeyer" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I also like his Mahler Symphony 7, but I'll admit it is really too
> slow to
> > > > > be one's only version.
> > > >
> > > > I've been narrowly resisting importing this from the UK for a while
> now. At
> > > > least, I think that's what we're looking at here:
> > > >
> > > > EMI CMS7641472 £17.00 £14.47 Format: CD 2CD Set
> > > > Gustav Mahler Symphony No.7 in E minor (Mahler). Symphony No.2
> (Klemperer).
> > > > String Quartet No.7 (Klemperer).
> > > > New Philharmonia Orchestra Otto Klemperer Philharmonia Qt
> > > >
> > > > (Is the coupling really Klemperer compositions? I haven't read
> anything about
> > > > this...)
> > > >
> > > > So: does anyone care to push me over the edge?
> > > >
> > > > I already have several versions: Abbado, Rattle, Sinopoli, Tilson
> Thomas. The
> > > > relative slowness of Sinopoli doesn't bother me, so I've been terribly
> > > > curious....
> > > >
> > > > David Standifer
> > >
> > > The cd really includes compositions BY Klemperer and the absolute
> > > slowness of the Mahler especially compared to Rattle, is numbing.
> >
> > I feel compelled to note that slowness compared to anything is not
> "absolute" but
> > its opposite, "relative." Thanks for chiming in, and for fueling my
> pedantic bent!
> >
> > David
> >
Concerning Klemperer's Mahler Symphony 7, I'll expand a little on my
original comment that it is really too slow to be one's only version:
First movement comes across to me as simply a different piece of music
than when heard at "normal" tempo, but a very interesting piece that is
full of details that are just glossed over in most of the faster
performances.
Second, third, and fourth movements actually work quite well at the
slow tempi.
Fifth movement is episodic and doesn't hang together very well to my
ears. Of course, I think this movement is among the weakest symphonic
movements Mahler wrote, and I've never heard any performance that
convinces me otherwise. Let the flames begin.
I first imprinted on Mahler 7 via Klemp's recording (yes, on those
poor-sounding Angel LPs), that may explain something of my attitude toward
it right there. Even so, I'd still not recommend it as anyone's first
recording of the piece. However, for the collector who has several
versions (I have Boulez, both Bernsteins, Kubelik, and Solti in addition
to Klemperer), I can't see any reason not to include a few that are
genuinely different from the norm in interesting ways -- the Klemperer
recording surely qualifies on that count.
As to the pairings on the CD reissue of the Klemperer Mahler 7, they are
indeed compositions by Klemperer. They didn't make much impression on me
when I first heard them and haven't since.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
> >
> > Tony Movshon wrote:
> >
> > > It may be worth waiting for this one to appear in the Klemperer legacy
> > > series. A number of things seem to be out of print right now, because
> > > EMI deleted the old series before completing the new. I presume
> > > everything will find its way back into the catalog in the end, and the
> > > new series is midpriced.
> > >
> > > Used copies are also not uncommon.
> >
> > Hmmm ... doesn't that say something right there?
>
> Just that cheapskates like me pick up a lot of good recordings from used
> CD stores and pawnshops--all it takes is patience and a bit of money.
Did you miss the point that they wouldn't be in the used stores if they
were generally treasured?
Tony Movshon
> > have seen a couple of different ones (maybe remasterings or whatever)
>
> There's an EMI and a Vox. I'm told the EMI is the one to have; I'm waiting
> for the slim cheap remaster which is, I hope, coming.
Right; there's only been one EMI CD that I know of. The Vox issue is of
a different performance from Vienna in the 50s. It's not very good --
mediocre orchestra, singing, and recording.
Tony Movshon
> > Used copies are also not uncommon.
>
> Hmmm ... doesn't that say something right there?
Of course not. All of your most treasured recordings show up used also.
Note that I can make that assertion without having a clue what your
favorites are.
Tony Movshon
"A. Brain" <abr...@nospam.att.net> writes:
> Qs: What is the OK Bruckner 7th referred to? (Only one I see in the
> catalogue is a live one from the '50s.)
Philharmonia, recorded 1960, on EMI. Allegedly off-pitch in the previous
CD transfer. Presumably deleted in preparation for a reissue in the new
Klemperer Legacy series.
> C: I too like Klemperer and have a lot of his recordings on LP, only a few
> on CD so far. Another good Klemperer recording is Mozart Serenades 10 (13
> winds) and 11; I have the CD but I think it's out of print now
A great (and very late) recording, also awaiting reissue.
Tony Movshon
> > about someone whose work you haven't compared?
>
> I don't know what you're talking about. DGG (as it was then) presented
> the same oratorio singers far better than Angel. Period!
How would you know?
> Oh, and Julius Katchen for piano, esp. Brahms, and his concertos led me
> to Istvan Kertesz.
That's curious. His Brahms concertos were conducted by Monteux and
Ferencsik.
ElShaddai Edwards
Disc 1: Romeo et Juliette: Parts I-3 (beginning), 1953, Mono
Disc 2: Romeo et Juliette: Part 3 (conclusion), 1953, Mono; Les nuits d'ete,
1955, Stereo; Troyens: Royal Hunt and Storm, 1959; Stereo
Disc 3: La damnation de Faust: Parts 1-3 (beginning), 1954, Mono.
Disc 4: La damnation de Faust: Parts 3 (conclusion) and 4, 1954, Mono;
Beatrice et Benedict Overture, 1958, Stereo; Le corsaire, 1958, Stereo;
Benvenuto Cellini Overture, 1959, Stereo.
Disc 5: L'enfance du Christ: Parts 1-3 (beginning), 1956, Stereo.
Disc 6: L'enfance du Christ: Part 3 (conclusion), 1956, Stereo; Harold en
Italie, 1958, Stereo; Le carnaval romain, 1958, Stereo.
Disc 7: Requiem: 1-8, 1959, Stereo.
Disc 8: Requiem: 9-10, 1959, Stereo; Symphonie fantastique, 1954, Stereo.
ElShaddai Edwards
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:387BBE...@worldnet.att.net...
<snip>
> Thomas's), I came across a couple of interesting $80 boxes: all of
> Münchinger's big Bach (Passions, Mass, oratorios, Magnificat) on 10
> discs, and Munch's Berlioz from the 1950s (it doesn't say how many of
> them are stereo) on 8 disks -- I have some of them in LP (but lent the
> Enfance du Christ to the same voice teacher who introduced me to
> Schumann ...
<snip>
khows...@zdnetmail.com
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Did you miss the point that they wouldn't be in the used stores if
they
> were generally treasured?
No. I chose to interpret Tony's observation differently than you.
Angel/EMI is/was a readily available label which probably sold quite
well. Klemps was one of the more frequently recorded conductors on the
label, and so, many people bought his recordings. That they later sold
the recordings probably represents 1) dislike of the recording because
of slowness or sound or other reason, 2) selling off duplicate copies,
3) the need to sell off a collection for money or lack of interest. I
don't regard the ease availability of an artist's recordings in used
stores as a reflection of popularity or artistic merit. Do you think it
does?
Kang
--
K. Howson-Jan
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Roland van Gaalen - Amsterdam - NL
: jan winter wrote:
:>
:> Between 1946 and 1964 Klemperer was a frequent guest in Amsterdam and
:> he certainly brought the best out of the orchestra.
: There was certainly something special about the Klemperer/Concertgebouw
: collaboration. Their performances together had a level of intensity that
: often surpassed what Klemperer achieved with the Philharmonia: compare
: the 1956 Concertgebouw Beethoven Ninth with either of the Philharmonia
: performances (live or studio) from the following year and you will hear
: much the same interpretation, but presented in a very different
: character. That Verklaerte Nacht that you mention has to be heard to be
: believed.
: About ten years ago the Memories label brought out a two-disc set of
: Klemperer/Concertgebouw material that included stunning performances of
: Mendelssohn's "Hebrides" overture and Mozart's piano concert no. 22 with
: Annie Fischer, as well as a performance of Klemperer's own 1st symphony.
: Unfortunately the transfers were terrible, well below the standard of
: the Archiphon discs. It would be good to see these recordings issued
: again in better sound. It would also be interesting to know what other
: material may still be in the vaults.
I wish the 1951 concert to commemorate Willem Mengelberg had been
recorded; this is reported to have been a very impressive and moving
event (for example by Haitink, was in attendance):
-Mozart / Masonic music
-Mahler / Der Abschied (from Das Lied von der Erde)
-Bach / "Wenn ich einmal" (from the St Matthew Passion)
-Beethoven / Eroica symphony
conducted by none other than Otto Klemperer.
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
Richard Landau
- NL <r...@xs4.xs4all.nl> writes
>I wish the 1951 concert to commemorate Willem Mengelberg had been
>recorded; this is reported to have been a very impressive and moving
>event (for example by Haitink, was in attendance):
>
>-Mozart / Masonic music
>-Mahler / Der Abschied (from Das Lied von der Erde)
>-Bach / "Wenn ich einmal" (from the St Matthew Passion)
>-Beethoven / Eroica symphony
>
>conducted by none other than Otto Klemperer.
>
>Roland van Gaalen
>Amsterdam
>
Hall on February 13th 1968. Klemperer conducted the NPO as a tribute to
his friend Sir Victor Gollancz, the publisher, music-lover and
humanitarian, and it appears that the Gollancz family chose the
programme.
Once again the Masonic Funeral Music opened the concert. Next came
orchestral excerpts from Berlioz's Romeo et Juliette and Schubert's
eighth symphony. The second half of the programme started off with the
first symphony of Beethoven and finished with the Leonore III overture.
a propos of the Mozart MFM, the conductor's daughter Lotte confirmed to
me that her father had always had 'a great love *and affinity*' for the
piece. For most of us that is only too clear from listening to the
account on EMI, but I also have a tape of it taken from the Feb 1968
concert (not the finest mono sound but a real momento nonetheless) and
there the piece comes over perhaps even more powerfully.
The BBC certainly broadcast that concert 'live' and I recorded the whole
thing at the time. I imagine that it isn't retained in the radio
archives though, and I have to report with great shame that I later
erased most of the concert (ugh!). It would be SO fascinating to hear
again Klemps's account of the Berlioz which is otherwise quite
unavailable AFAIK. Did anyone out there make an off-air recording? The
Leonore III was, as always under this conductor, a very noble thing. But
I must agree with Neil Tingley that the 'live' 1950 account with the
Royal Danish Orchestra has an extraordinary dynamic intensity.
LK also mentioned how much she always preferred her father's 'live' to
his commercially recorded performances and thought that the concerts
recorded in Munich by Bavarian Radio were something special.
Ric...@atelier48.demon.co.uk
Tony Movshon
> > "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
> > > Tony Movshon wrote:
> > > > It may be worth waiting for this one to appear in the Klemperer legacy
> > > > series. A number of things seem to be out of print right now, because
> > > > EMI deleted the old series before completing the new. I presume
> > > > everything will find its way back into the catalog in the end, and the
> > > > new series is midpriced.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hmmm ... doesn't that say something right there?
> >
> > CD stores and pawnshops--all it takes is patience and a bit of money.
>
> were generally treasured?
Gee, no, Peter. I think that subtlety may have eluded Kang. You might
want to reflect the difference between "generally" and "universally".
jan winter
<na...@alphalink.com.au> wrote:
>jan winter wrote:
>>
>> Between 1946 and 1964 Klemperer was a frequent guest in Amsterdam and
>> he certainly brought the best out of the orchestra.
>
>There was certainly something special about the Klemperer/Concertgebouw
>collaboration. Their performances together had a level of intensity that
>often surpassed what Klemperer achieved with the Philharmonia: compare
>the 1956 Concertgebouw Beethoven Ninth with either of the Philharmonia
>performances (live or studio) from the following year and you will hear
>much the same interpretation, but presented in a very different
>character.
"During the Ninth Symphony he got so electrified that he ran through
the orchestra up to the wind section in order to get out of the choir
what he wanted" (Louis Metz, then 1st violist).
Of course Metz may have referred to another Ninth than the '56 one;
Klemperer did at least 4 complete Beethoven cycli in Amsterdam.
Peter T. Daniels
my Harold LP is the Szell, because the soloist (whose name escapes me;
probably Cleveland's Principal Viola?) performed it at Grant Park one
summer and was magnificent. A big red-headed guy.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Peter T. Daniels
> > > Reasonable enough, but why then are you offering comparative judgements
> > > about someone whose work you haven't compared?
> >
> > I don't know what you're talking about. DGG (as it was then) presented
> > the same oratorio singers far better than Angel. Period!
>
> How would you know?
From hearing the same singers on Angel recordings and on DGG recordings?
Duh!
>
> > Oh, and Julius Katchen for piano, esp. Brahms, and his concertos led me
> > to Istvan Kertesz.
>
> That's curious. His Brahms concertos were conducted by Monteux and
> Ferencsik.
Nu? The concerto recordings he made with Kertesz led me to Kertesz.
Since you are deliberately argumentative, and since you appear to be a
monomaniac, I wish I had a killfile so I didn't have to be bothered.
Peter T. Daniels
> >
> > Hmmm ... doesn't that say something right there?
>
> Note that I can make that assertion without having a clue what your
> favorites are.
"Not uncommon"ly?
I know a lot more about usedbook stores than usedrecord stores, and I
know that what shows up *most* is what has been marketed most
successfully regardless of merit; and what people least want to reread.
K. Howson-Jan
through Deja to see what else Tony has posted about music and recordings, rather
than getting miffed over a Klemperer tiff. Sorry to butt in gents.
Kang
David Hurwitz
reflects not a lack of popularity, but just the opposite. His recordings
were reissued so many times, so many different ways, and EMI/Angel tried to
exploit every technology and pricing strategy to get people to buy the same
performances over and over, that every few years it has been possible to
dump your whole collection for the new pressings/remasterings. On CD alone,
Klemperer's basic catalog has been issued at least three times, once at full
price, twice at mid price, and select titles have appeared even more
frequently on different lines or in budget collections. The result is a ton
of "used" CDs and LPs dumped in favor of the latest versions, especially
when the newer editions represent distinct sonic improvements..
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
http://www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
<khows...@zdnetmail.com> wrote in message
news:85iis1$e4o$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <387C72...@worldnet.att.net>,
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > Did you miss the point that they wouldn't be in the used stores if
> they
> > were generally treasured?
>
C. N. Chew
>
> Between 1946 and 1964 Klemperer was a frequent guest in Amsterdam and
> he certainly brought the best out of the orchestra.
There was certainly something special about the Klemperer/Concertgebouw
collaboration. Their performances together had a level of intensity that
often surpassed what Klemperer achieved with the Philharmonia: compare
the 1956 Concertgebouw Beethoven Ninth with either of the Philharmonia
performances (live or studio) from the following year and you will hear
much the same interpretation, but presented in a very different
character. That Verklaerte Nacht that you mention has to be heard to be
believed.
About ten years ago the Memories label brought out a two-disc set of
Klemperer/Concertgebouw material that included stunning performances of
Mendelssohn's "Hebrides" overture and Mozart's piano concert no. 22 with
Annie Fischer, as well as a performance of Klemperer's own 1st symphony.
Unfortunately the transfers were terrible, well below the standard of
the Archiphon discs. It would be good to see these recordings issued
again in better sound. It would also be interesting to know what other
material may still be in the vaults.
Naun.
Brian Cantin
> Since you are deliberately argumentative, and since you appear to be a
> monomaniac, I wish I had a killfile so I didn't have to be bothered.
There is an idea. If I killfile every argumentative mononmaniac in rmcr,
the traffic will be reduced by an order of magnitude. Read the group
in minutes! Spend more time with the family!
I will miss reading my own posts though.
--
Brian Cantin
An advocate of poisonous individualism.
To reply via email, replace "dcantin" with "bcantin".
Tony Movshon
> Tony Movshon wrote:
> > > > Used copies are also not uncommon.
> > >
> > > Hmmm ... doesn't that say something right there?
> >
> > Of course not. All of your most treasured recordings show up used also.
> > Note that I can make that assertion without having a clue what your
> > favorites are.
>
> "Not uncommon"ly?
>
> I know a lot more about usedbook stores than usedrecord stores, and I
> know that what shows up *most* is what has been marketed most
> successfully regardless of merit; and what people least want to reread.
I'm sure it depends on where you look. At my "local" used CD store,
Academy in NYC, absolutely everything shows up if you wait long enough.
Anyway, the subject of this threadlet was Klemperer's Missa Solemnis,
which is probably out of print right now, so used is the choice if you
want it.
Tony Movshon
mov...@nyu.edu
Tony Movshon
> Since you are deliberately argumentative, and since you appear to be a
> monomaniac, I wish I had a killfile so I didn't have to be bothered.
Oh, you needn't be bothered on my account. I was simply probing. You
seem to have firmly-held views but I was (and remain) unable to discern
their basis. I'll survive that; my monomania will protect me.
Tony Movshon
mov...@nyu.edu
Peter T. Daniels
Did you fail to notice the posting in which I explained that at the
earliest possible moment -- the next day or the same afternoon -- I went
to the store to find an OK recording, and listened to it, and described
my impressions, including the recognition that the sound was fine, and
agreeing with one of the contributors that the 4th and 5th movements
were fantastiques? (though 1-3 certainly weren't, which might be
accounted for by his relative unfamiliarity with the work)
And you might acknowledge your own lapses of logic regarding the content
of the posting most of which you snipped? I mean the bits I marked "duh"
and "nu"?
David R L Porter
from to...@cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon) contains these words:
> Gee, no, Peter. I think that subtlety may have eluded Kang. You might
> want to reflect the difference between "generally" and "universally".
Also people die, give unwanted presents, acquire duplicates, etc etc ...
--
Best wishes,
Tony Movshon
> > seem to have firmly-held views but I was (and remain) unable to discern
> > their basis. I'll survive that; my monomania will protect me.
>
> of the posting most of which you snipped? I mean the bits I marked "duh"
> and "nu"?
The "lapses of logic" that you attribute to me were actually failures of
your own comprehension, though perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should
have been.
But this is tedious; let's just give it all a rest, shall we?
jan winter
wrote:
>I seem to remember a live Bruckner 6th with the RCO from the early
>sixties. Is that worth trying to find?
I think *all* Klemperer's live recordings with the CO are worth trying
to find. I don't know the Bruckner but I sure would like to find it.
Marc Perman
>On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:55:27 +0100, EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl>
>wrote:
>
>>I seem to remember a live Bruckner 6th with the RCO from the early
>>sixties. Is that worth trying to find?
>
>I think *all* Klemperer's live recordings with the CO are worth trying
>to find. I don't know the Bruckner but I sure would like to find it.
This is on Music & Arts, with the Brahms Haydn Variations. It's a
fairly compelling performance, certainly better than the IMO overrated
studio 6th, but the sound is pretty rough. The Brahms has better
sound. The 6th that has my attention these days is Keilberth's.
Marc Perman
Simon Roberts
: "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
: > Tony Movshon wrote:
: > > Do you have anything illuminating to say? We know he was often slow. So
: > > what?
: >
: > All right; his records were unlistenable, but he usually had the best
: > lineup of soloists -- Schwarzkopf, Ludwig, Pears, Fischer-Dieskau,
: > Berry. Happily, I could get most of the same singers on Karajan's
: > versions of e.g. Missa Solemnis, which were vastly preferable.
: OK, you prefer Karajan's Missa to Klemperer's. Want to tell us *why*?
: Klemperer is not especially slow in the Missa, and Karajan is no speed
: demon. The singing in Karajan's EMI recording is very lovely, I agree,
: but don't you find it all a bit smooth and perhaps a teensy bit empty?
Actually, there are three EMI Karajan Missa Solemnis recordings (two
studio, one of which is now on Testament); all the various Karajan
recordings of the work I know aren't only not fast, but they're all slower
than Klemperer/EMI by a few minutes (I think Klemperer's would just fit on
one disc).
Simon (who wishes Klemperer EMI had different soloists)