orchestral pieces without violins
Neil Midkiff
violins came up. I could only think of two examples:
Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #6 in Bb, and the second Serenade by
Brahms, op. 16 in A major. Both have a rich, warm sonority which is
very effective. Has this been exploited by other composers?
One friend recalls that the violins are tacet for one movement of a
longer chorus-and-orchestra work that he heard once, but he can't
remember the particulars.
This is not a trick question; please don't reply with pieces for wind
band. What I'm interested in is orchestral music in which (at least
for significant sections) the violins aren't playing but the lower
strings and the rest of the orchestra go on without them.
No prejudice here (I was a violinist myself once), just an interesting
technique of orchestration. Let me know of any examples you can think
of. Thanks!
-Neil Midkiff
Robert Coren
> In a recent discussion, the subject of orchestral music without
> violins came up. I could only think of two examples:
> Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #6 in Bb, and the second Serenade by
> Brahms, op. 16 in A major.
Also the first movement of the Brahms Requiem.
David M Pesetsky
>
>...This is not a trick question; please don't reply with pieces for wind
>band. What I'm interested in is orchestral music in which (at least
>for significant sections) the violins aren't playing but the lower
>strings and the rest of the orchestra go on without them.
If music with a chorus counts as "orchestral" (or maybe the significant
sections without the chorus count), Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms
comes to mind. As a violinist, I remember sitting around doing nothing
while the winds, cellos and basses (are there violas in the Stravinsky?
I don't remember) rehearsed. We were told it was our just deserts for
all the times that wind players have to sit around waiting for us.
David Pesetsky
pes...@athena.mit.edu
pes...@cogito.mit.edu
Ed Barker
> In a recent discussion, the subject of orchestral music without
> violins came up. I could only think of two examples:
> Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #6 in Bb, and the second Serenade by
> Brahms, op. 16 in A major. Both have a rich, warm sonority which is
> very effective. Has this been exploited by other composers?
I remember hearing a peice by Stravinsky on the Austin classical music
station last year. Unfortunately, I can't remember its name. In it, all
of the violins are removed from the stage, leaving only cellos, winds and
percussion. Surely someone else knows the name of this piece!
Dorothy Heydt
Canon in D was originally scored for strings other than violins, and
J.-F. Paillard put the violins back in for his entirely too well-known
recording. Can anybody verify this? The piece certainly _sounds_
better in other people's performances, e.g. Hogwood's.
Walter Betts
principle violist is the concertmaster. I greatly enjoyed playing
the soprano saxophone part when the Bel Canto Singers of Fort
Worth performed the Work in 1987.
The instrumentation of the work in very interesting: strings
without violins; alto flutes, and soprano and alto saxophones in
addition to the normal compliment of woodwinds; and there are
keyboard parts for organ, piano, celeste, and Yamaha DX-7. As I
remember playing the work, it seemed as though the he used low
instruments with dark tone qualities to offest the soloists -
soprano, boy treble, and tenor. BTW, I am aware of why the
treble soloist and organ are used - are there other specific
reasons behind his choices?
Walter Betts
----- __
Walter L. Betts \\ My only opinion is:
Fort Worth, Texas \\ ____ "Saxophones ... possess most
wa...@rwsys.lonestar.org \\_/ / rare and precious qualities."
(817) 457-2689 \__/ --- H. Berlioz
-----
Timothy Takahashi
but only divided violas, cellos and basses in the string section.
tim takahashi
GLO...@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu
>What about the Faure Requiem, there is a violin solo in one movement
>but only divided violas, cellos and basses in the string section.
2. Movements 1,2 (and 4, if I remember correctly) have the violins marked
Tacet (i.e. they are silent for the entire movement).
Faure's Requiem is a gorgeous work, and it has a rich string sound,
though the movements w/o violins do lack the brilliance of the violin
sound, IMHO (but Faure wanted this more mellow sound, and the effect
works well).
Now, for another question: does anyone out there know why Faure's Requiem
is scored having just one part for all of the violins?
Gregory D. Glockner
Bitnet: GLOGRED@YALEVM
Disclaimer: I played it better at home.
John Bodnar
a) the Stuttgart Opera, where the world premiere would occur, has a
smaller than usual pit and would not be able to accomodate Glass'
forces and b) because Akhnaten is sung by a countertenor (Paul
Esswood), Glass creates a sort of landscape of warm string tone for
the countertenor to soar over -- it emphasizes the part; violins would
lessen this effect.
John Bodnar (moz...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)
University of Texas at Austin
David M Tate
>In article <48...@ur-cc.UUCP>, tt...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Timothy Takahashi) writes:
>
>>What about the Faure Requiem, there is a violin solo in one movement
>>but only divided violas, cellos and basses in the string section.
>
>1. There are NO violin solos in Faure's Requiem
Are we talking about the same Faure Requiem? Both of my recordings of it (of
which one is the superb Shaw/Atlanta/Blegen/Merrill Telarc recording, with the
scrumptious Durufle Requiem on the same disc) have solo violin in the Sanctus
(if I remember correctly). Well, solo violin with chorus. If you don't think
that counts, well...
Of course, it is possible that Faure intended this to be a soli section, and
that modern demand for showing off has circumvented his wishes. This is almost
always the case in performances of the Durufle Requiem, where the composer made
explicit his desire that the "solo" parts be sung by the entire section, for a
more plainsong-like sound. Needless to say, most performances import someone
special to take those gorgeous Benedictine lines and try to turn them into
Puccini...
Anyone know for sure on the Faure?
--
===============================================================================
David M. Tate | "I do not know which to prefer: the beauty
dt...@unix.cis.pitt.edu | of inflections, or the beauty of innuendoes;
| the blackbird whistling, or just after..."
Jon Conrad
parts of the Faure Requiem. Maybe a Dvorak serenade too?
Jon Alan Conrad
David M Pesetsky
>1. There are NO violin solos in Faure's Requiem
On my way out the door, I looked at the jacket of my old Ansermet
recording of the Requiem (London-Richmond), and reference is made to an
"elegiac violin solo in the Sanctus".
-David Pesetsky
pes...@cogito.mit.edu
Jon Conrad
>is scored having just one part for all of the violins?
Faure wrote the Requiem originally for organ and small group of
instruments--a handful of lower strings, maybe a woodwind or horn.
(I forget the details.) As it would be performed again one year
or another, another instrument would be available, and he'd add a
part for it. The orchestral version we have is in fact a hodge-
podge of all the parts he thought up at different times.
Some recent performances and recordings have experimentally gone
back to his original "chamber" conception. They usually identify
themselves as "original version" on the front of the box, if you're
interested in exploring this.
Jon Alan Conrad
Bonnie R. Hiller
In article <10...@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu>, GLO...@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
(Gregory D. Glockner) writes:
>1. There are NO violin solos in Faure's Requiem
I've performed this work at last 5 times and in every performance I've
been a part of there were violins...maybe an "inauthentic"
orchestration was used.
In every recording I've heard there has always been a violin solo in
the "In Paradisum".
-Bonnie Hiller
Roger Knopf 5502
It was my understanding that Faure originally scored it for _only_ the
solo violin in the Sanctus and that the other violin parts were later
additions.
BTW, a good pairing is the Shaw/Telarc CD with both Faure and Durufle
requiems. Although the Durufle gets less air time, I think I prefer it.
Roger Knopf
David M Tate
>
>BTW, a good pairing is the Shaw/Telarc CD with both Faure and Durufle
>requiems. Although the Durufle gets less air time, I think I prefer it.
>
>Roger Knopf
YES! Absolutely. On both counts.
The Shaw/Telarc recording is extraordinary. Judith Blegen and James Merrill
are superb in the Faure; the chorus is (as usual) flawless. The atmosphere of
the performance is completely captivating, and the engineering is superb. And
you get over 78 minutes (!) on the disc...
I had the glorious opportunity to perform the Durufle requiem in The Cathedral
of Mary our Queen in Baltimore, with the Peabody/Hopkins Chorale (under a great
young conductor, Ed Polochik), in 1984. The Cathedral is famous for it's "hang
time"; the joke is that you can come back Monday and hear the homily as it
comes off the back wall :-).
The piece is superb. The piece is mostly plainsong, note for note, with
haunting and ethereal French Impressionist harmonies woven about it *without*
in any way compromising the original spirit and sacred mood of the chant.
The dynamic range is rather greater than the Faure, ranging from the crystalline
"In Paradisum" to the dark and passionate "Libera Me" to the incredibly heart-
pounding "Hosanna". There are no solos; all single-voice lines are sung as
chant by the appropriate section.
Obviously, by highest recommendation :-).
If you like the "Requiem", you should hear Durufle's "Four Sacred Motets" for
a cappella (small) double chorus. The texts are "Ubi Caritas" ("Wherever there
is love and charity, there also is God"), "Tu es Petrus", "Tantum Ergo", and
one other whose text escapes me. Many people (myself included) consider the
"Tantum Ergo" and the "Ubi Caritas" to be among the most beautiful choral works
of the twentieth century, if not ever.
Dave Singer
> If you like the "Requiem", you should hear Durufle's "Four Sacred Motets"
> for a cappella (small) double chorus. The texts are "Ubi Caritas"
> ("Wherever there is love and charity, there also is God"),
> "Tu es Petrus", "Tantum Ergo", and
> one other whose text escapes me.
zut! "Tota Pulchra Es" (high voices only). Breathtaking to listen to if
sung at the indicated tempo (many choirs smooch up this whole set by
ignoring the tempo markings and singing them too slowly).
* * * * *
To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags
-- that is a loyalty of unreason, it is pure animal (Mark Twain).
David M Tate
>In article <21...@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dt...@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M
>Tate) writes:
>> If you like the "Requiem", you should hear Durufle's "Four Sacred Motets"
>> for a cappella (small) double chorus. The texts are "Ubi Caritas"
>> ("Wherever there is love and charity, there also is God"),
>> "Tu es Petrus", "Tantum Ergo", and
>> one other whose text escapes me.
>
>zut! "Tota Pulchra Es" (high voices only). Breathtaking to listen to if
>sung at the indicated tempo (many choirs smooch up this whole set by
>ignoring the tempo markings and singing them too slowly).
>
forget.
Incidentally, I quite agree about the tempi. Ubi Caritas is beautiful at any
tempo, but should flow irresistably, with the two pulses of the two choirs
gently competing for supremacy. Tu Es Petrus should stride forward confidently
to "teach all nations".
My pet peeve with performances of these, though, is the tendency of some groups
to ignore the choir 1/choir 2 distinction except where forced into it by divisi
sections. This completely destroys the spatial separation of the parts, and
the difference in quality between the two half-choirs (and of those two versus
the whole choir together). It would be like having the violas play along with
the second violins everytime they didn't have anything else to do...
G. Papadopoulos
Which recorded performance of Durufle's "Four Sacred Motets" do you
consider best?
Georgios
Erik Bertrand
Since we are talking about Robert Shaw on Telarc, I have his Messiah on disk.
I would just like to know what people think about it. Is there a better version
out there? I have heard that the Philips recording of it with (oh, darn, I
forgot his name) and the Monteverdi Choir is very good. Any thoughts,
suggestions? Thanks!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik Bertrand . . : /\ . : ( /\ .
St. Anselm College Computer Science Department . /\ ./ \ . /\ ./ \
87 St. Anselm Drive #3 . / \/ \ / \. / \
Manchester, N.H. 03102-1310 / \ / \/ \
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
UUCP : ...!harvard!dartvax!anselm!ebertran
"Happy is the one who continues to sing when the heart is empty and the
music is no longer there."
Erik Bertrand
> In article <21...@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dt...@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M
> Tate) writes:
> > If you like the "Requiem", you should hear Durufle's "Four Sacred Motets"
> > for a cappella (small) double chorus. The texts are "Ubi Caritas"
> > ("Wherever there is love and charity, there also is God"),
> > "Tu es Petrus", "Tantum Ergo", and
> > one other whose text escapes me.
>
> zut! "Tota Pulchra Es" (high voices only). Breathtaking to listen to if
> sung at the indicated tempo (many choirs smooch up this whole set by
> ignoring the tempo markings and singing them too slowly).
>
These motets are really wonderful to sing. We (The Manchester Choral
Society - Ever heard of them?) did them, along with other selections, as a
Holiday type concert in a "bathtuby" setting, the Currier Gallery of Art in
Manchester, N.H., U.S.A. The "Ubi Caritas" is so wonderful at a rather
slow, flowing tempo, as if your floating 1 foot off the ground. The
"Tota Pulchra Es" (for women only - rats!) is a nice motet that sort-of
leaves you "proud" of yourself at the end. It's hard to explain. The
"Tu es Petrus" the broadest of the bunch. My being a 2nd tenor was
good, because we got to start out the whole fugue, of sorts. The
"Tantum Ergo" is the "mellowist" (for lack of a better word) of the
bunch. This one also gives you a feeling of floating 1 foot off the
ground.
Fortunately, we have a really good conductor (Lisa Wolff - Ever heard
of her?). The tempo markings for each of the motets were different, so
I guess she took them as they were written. I definitely recommend these.
(And thanks for the plugs!)
David M Tate
I only know one: the Ambrosian Singers, I believe. Boy trebles, nice straight
sound. Very nice. It's on a disc with (of course) the Requiem, using the
"light" orchestration. I don't like the Requiem nearly as well as the Shaw,
but the 10 minutes of motets are heaven.
I'll check out the label/artists/etc. more thoroughly and follow-up...
Mike Flaherty
Personally, I like the Ambrosian Singers on Hyperion (the
catalog number escapes me at the moment) directed by Martin(?) Best.
The four motets are packaged with the Dufufle Requiem (how nice to tie
these responses together :-)
While neither the motets or the Requiem may be the most
breathtaking one has ever heard, there are many worthy features to
recommend this disc. - the tempi are not too slow, neither on the
motets nor the Requiem. - the acoustic is a good compromise between
vastness and intelligibility. - the "spiritual essence" is preserved
throughout. - the singing is very competent, with a light touch by all
voices.
It is customary to include a bit of plainchant as
introduction to each of the motets. While performing them with the St.
Eugene's Cathedral Choir (Santa Rosa, CA) last year, we included the
entire first verse of the chant on which each is based, cantored by four
choir members, each in turn. This "little extra" was well received.
The Hyperion release is available at Tower. Approx. 51 min.
Mike "I'm new at this, so bear with me" Flaherty
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Mike Flaherty | Hewlett Packard Company |
| mik...@hpsad.HP.COM | Signal Analysis Division |
| Tel: (707) 794-3014 | 1212 Valley House Drive |
| | Rohnert Park, CA 94928 |
-----------------------------------------------------------
-- "I play the game for the game's own sake." - S. Holmes
Mike Flaherty
In a previous response herein, Erik Bertrand asks:
> Since we are talking about Robert Shaw on Telarc, I have his Messiah on disk.
> I would just like to know what people think about it. Is there a better
> version out there? I have heard that the Philips recording of it with
> (oh, darn, I forgot his name) and the Monteverdi Choir is very good.
> Any thoughts, suggestions? Thanks!
>
John Eliot Gardener is the Monteverdi Choir conductor, along
with the English Baroque Soloists, an "original instrument" ensemble.
As far as recorded Messiahs go, the argument rages on between
"truly faithful" renditions vs. "truly musical" renditions, and one's
interpretations and taste. I have solved this dilemma by having two
versions:
The Philips / John Eliot Gardener
This edition is characterized by crisp, precise choral work
and tempi. Gardener uses a "mature ensemble", ie. sopranos vs. trebles
in the highest voices, of approx. 32 voices who have immense technical
abilities. His instrument ensemble is also precise and yet mellow
sounding, as most original instrument ensembles are. Of particular
merit, this recording of the Messiah choruses is very good to give
"Messiah neophytes" a good example to learn from, in preparation for
the "Sing-it-yourself-Messiahs" currently so popular.
The Decca (L'oysire-Lyre) / Christopher Hogwood
In this edition, Hogwood employs a Cathedral Choir
(Westminster, from Oxford, I believe. I'll have to go home and check!)
consisting of trebles, counter-tenors, tenors, and basses. This
ensemble gives the edition an historically correct feeling, and the
liner notes (well, booklet nowadays) are truly excellent. The Academy
of Ancient Music is Hogwood's instrument ensemble, again on "original
instruments", and they are very good. Of particular merit here are the
soloists; especially Emma Kirkby, sop. and Anthony Rolf-Johnson,
tenor. They are two of my very favorites in this repertoire. My
wife, a very good soprano, always has trouble relating to trebles
singing, though (Wait a minute... those are BOYS singing that!!)
I really do like both of these equally well, depending on
which mood I'm in. I believe they are the two best available.
Mike Flaherty
Roger Knopf 5502
>are superb in the Faure; the chorus is (as usual) flawless.
Not to take anything away from the main discussion but this is the second
posting listing Merrill as the bass on the Telarc/Shaw Faure. Wrong,
our man is actually the incredible James Morris. He sings at the SF
opera all the time, definitely worth the price of admission.
Roger Knopf
Roger Knopf 5502
In article <3...@anselm.UUCP> eber...@anselm.UUCP (Erik Bertrand) writes:
>
>Since we are talking about Robert Shaw on Telarc, I have his Messiah on disk.
>I would just like to know what people think about it. Is there a better version
>out there? I have heard that the Philips recording of it with (oh, darn, I
>forgot his name) and the Monteverdi Choir is very good. Any thoughts,
>suggestions? Thanks!
I have the Messiah done by Shaw on RCA. I don't think he had heard about
any of this newfangled "original instrument" and "historically correct"
performances stuff yet. He did it much like I would envision Stokowski
would - massive chorus, no ornamentation, Verdian soloists. I far
prefer the Colin Davis (on Philips) of the same vintage.
I think the Philips one you are thinking of would be John Eliot
Gardiner. I like his other baroque performances but the recordings
have been pretty darn bright, sometimes hard to listen to.
Roger Knopf
David M Pesetsky
>
>I have the Messiah done by Shaw on RCA. I don't think he had heard about
>any of this newfangled "original instrument" and "historically correct"
>performances stuff yet. He did it much like I would envision Stokowski
>would - massive chorus, no ornamentation, Verdian soloists. I far
>prefer the Colin Davis (on Philips) of the same vintage.
For a superb kitsch Messiah, there is nothing better than the Beecham
recording, with the RPO and RPO Chorus, Jon Vickers, Giorgio Tozzi,
Monica Sinclaie and Jennifer Vyvyan (who I don't otherwise know),
trombones, harp, percussion, everything. I got this as a remaindered
set of LPs years ago (RCA LDS 6409); I don't know if there's a CD
rerelease. I also own Gardiner's original-instrument Messiah on CD, and
I just think of them as two separate pieces.
David Pesetsky
pes...@cogito.mit.edu
Robert W. Holzel
>
>I would just like to know what people think about it. Is there a better version
>out there? I have heard that the Philips recording of it with (oh, darn, I
>forgot his name) and the Monteverdi Choir is very good. Any thoughts,
>suggestions? Thanks!
Over the holidays (when else?) I heard a broadcast of a recording of
the Messiah done by the Toronto Symphony. Sorry, but I can't remember
the name of conductor (I think it was Davis) or even the label (I
think it was EMI) but what I *do* remember was a wonderful set of
soloists, a strong choir, very well-judged tempos, and a sense that
everyone loved the work and therefore was lovingly committed to
providing it with the best presentation possible. Since hearing
it, and since finding it listed in the Schwann, I have not been
able to find it in the stores. I figured that's because at
Christmas everybody buys the Messiah, so I'd wait till spring
to start a serious search.
I'd resisted this work because I'd thought it overrated and overdone.
This performance captured my attention and didn't let go till
it was over -- it challenged and changed my opinion about the piece.
Just an opinion...
Rob
Jon Conrad
>I have the Messiah done by Shaw on RCA. I don't think he had heard about
>any of this newfangled "original instrument" and "historically correct"
>performances stuff yet. He did it much like I would envision Stokowski
>would - massive chorus, no ornamentation, Verdian soloists. I far
>prefer the Colin Davis (on Philips) of the same vintage.
He certainly had heard of such things at the time; he used the new and
scholarly Watkins Shaw edition (and announced the fact). Perhaps his
chorus sounds overly heavy to you, but it is not massive, it was a
moderate-to-small group. Likewise the soloists; Judith Raskin, Florence
Kopleff, Richard Lewis, and the bass whose name escapes me couldn't have
survived for a moment in Verdi. They may not have the slimmed-down
sexless tones of some modern Messiah soloists, but for many of us that
will be a plus (even if we otherwise like historically informed
performances). I should add that I'm no great fan of the Robert Shaw
RCA Messiah myself; but that's because it's rather boring, not because
its scale or intentions are wrong.
>I think the Philips one you are thinking of would be John Eliot
>Gardiner. I like his other baroque performances but the recordings
>have been pretty darn bright, sometimes hard to listen to.
I like the Gardiner set on Philips very much. On CD it's not very
enticing, because they could have gotten it onto 2 discs and didn't.
But he has a fine assortment of soloists, and lots of imagination and
vitality (though surprisingly little vocal ornamentation). Especially
nice are mezzo Catherine Robbin, tenor Anthony Rolfe Johnson, and
bass Robert Hale--not a choirboy hoot among them. (In fact Hale is
an important Wagner soloist--so much for big voices being unwelcome
among today's baroque conductors.)
Jon Alan Conrad
Peter Kendell
>
>
> Personally, I like the Ambrosian Singers on Hyperion (the
> catalog number escapes me at the moment) directed by Martin(?) Best.
> The four motets are packaged with the Dufufle Requiem (how nice to tie
> these responses together :-)
>
It's the Corydon Singers actually. Nice record.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Peter Kendell <pe...@tcom.stc.co.uk> |
| ...{uunet!}mcvax!ukc!stc!pete |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
David J. Finton
>In article <18...@scorn.sco.COM> rog...@sco.COM (Roger Knopf 5502) writes:
>>I have the Messiah done by Shaw on RCA. I don't think he had heard about
>>any of this newfangled "original instrument" and "historically correct"
>
>>Gardiner. I like his other baroque performances but the recordings
>>have been pretty darn bright, sometimes hard to listen to.
>
>I like the Gardiner set on Philips very much. On CD it's not very
>enticing, because they could have gotten it onto 2 discs and didn't.
I'm curious about The Trumpet Shall Sound on original instrument
recordings. As a sometime trumpet player, this is a crucial part of
the Messiah for me. (Of course, everyone knows that trumpet players
just listen for the other trumpet players!)
Do the performers manage to play the trumpet part up to pitch? This
seems difficult to me, since modern players often use a D trumpet
or even a piccolo trumpet for this part. Not having any valves at
all would be even more treacherous than playing the part on a regular
Bb trumpet, which no one does. And wouldn't the original instruments
be much harder to blow in tune, and sound blattier?
Can any of you brass players advise me whether I'd be disappointed
in an original instrument performance of The Trumpet Shall Sound?
--David Finton
L. Talstra
>
>For a superb kitsch Messiah, there is ....
>..........and Jennifer Vyvyan (who I don't otherwise know),
I remember Jennifer Vyvyan from (Dutch) radio broadcastings in the
time I was in my teens (end '50, beginning '60, sigh :-) ). She could
rather frequently be heard in Handel works: several oratorios and
similar works, like the Chandos Anthems. I remember the Anthem "I will
magnify Thee, o God, my Lord", with that wonderful bassoon in the
opening sinfonia. I can't comment on her capacities as a singer, I
was too young too judge and only had the radio in the small village
we lived in, but I think she did fairly well. I don't know of any
recordings, but I suppose there must be (or: have been) some.
This leads me to some personal reflections: I owe my love for
classical music almost entirely to the radio. Born and grown up in
(very) small villages, hymn-singing in the church and occasionally
the brass-band from a village nearby were the only forms of music
I met, until my father could finally afford a radio receiver and my
parents wanted me to take lessons on an old reed-organ, standing around
in our house (I soon enjoyed that and still play the pipe-organ with
great pleasure), from then my musical horizon got wider.
Many, many times I scanned all radio-frequencies in search for an
an interesting concert! What attracted me far most was the music from
the Baroque period, I loved its "all pieces fit together" structure,
its warm sound and its equilibrium. "The Great Opera" never attracted
me very much: basses apparently "with a hot potatoe in their throats"
(as we say in Dutch), bawling tenors and screeching sopranoes (I have
been married to a soprano for 20+ years now :-) ), the only exception
was and is: Rossini, especially his really polyfonic parts: the final
scenes for 4, 6, or even more singers, great!
Getting older, one will appreciate more musical styles, but I must
confess that I still "have no ears" for those contemporary (American)
composers that are continuously being promoted via the net (no, no,
I will not give any names :-) ).
After all I think radio and television are great means to bring
classical music to the people (however I regret that television-
directors apparently only love "moving pictures" instead of music).
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
# Louw F Talstra DC&N/B Philips TDS Apeldoorn, The Netherlands +31 55 433146 #
# internet: tal...@idca.tds.philips.nl uucp: ...!mcvax!philapd!talstra #
John Bodnar
>
>I remember Jennifer Vyvyan from (Dutch) radio broadcastings in the
>time I was in my teens (end '50, beginning '60, sigh :-) ). She could
>rather frequently be heard in Handel works: several oratorios and
>similar works, like the Chandos Anthems. I remember the Anthem "I will
>magnify Thee, o God, my Lord", with that wonderful bassoon in the
>opening sinfonia. I can't comment on her capacities as a singer, I
>was too young too judge and only had the radio in the small village
>we lived in, but I think she did fairly well. I don't know of any
>recordings, but I suppose there must be (or: have been) some.
For what is perhaps the best recording of Beethoven's C Major Mass, Op. 86,
Jennifer Vyvyan sang soprano along with Monica Sinclair (contralto), Richard
Lewis (tenor), and Marion Nowakowski (bass), all under the indefatigible
Sir Thomas Beecham with the RPO & Beecham Choral Society. This was originally
released as an Angel LP, but I have it as a (catch this) Capitol Records of
Mexico LP (???????). Beecham died in '62, so this must've been originally
released in the late 50's as far as I can discern.
Anyone who knows when this was originally released, please let me know. Also,
anyone who knows what the "BART. C.H." means after Beecham's name is especially
encouraged to respond.
John Bodnar (jbo...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) <- New Address
Jon Conrad
Andrew Davis. As I remember, the soloists are Kathleen Battle,
Florence Quivar, John Aler, and Samuel Ramey, but I am only really
sure about Battle. They should all be excellent for it, but I
haven't heard it. It didn't get the most enthusiastic reviews, but
who cares, if it appeals to you. I bet I'd like it too.
Jon Alan Conrad
Kiara Jordan;324 Barker;x3-9226
>I have a book of Beecham stories somewhere, if
>anyone is interested I will try to find it and post a few.
Oh, please do. He was a character. I'll tell one while you're looking
for your book.
Sir Thomas was conducting a performance of _Aida._ A big lavish one
--probably without real elephants, but with real horses. Halfway through
the big parade, one of the horses relieved itself in the middle of the
stage.
For some reason this stopped the music.
Sir Thomas turned to the audience and said,
"A distressing spectacle, ladies and gentlemen -- but gad, what a critic!"
Dorothy J. Heydt
ki...@codon8.Berkeley.edu . . . . . . . I might be here another month or so;
w...@pbhya.PacBell.com . . . . . But my Lord Husband knows where to find me!
(I can no longer be reached at dorothy@cogsci. The assignment's over.)
Mike Harrison
Bart. is the standard abreviation for Baronet, a minor form of hededitary
nobility, which entitles the holder to the prefix 'Sir'.
CH is the abreviation for Companion of Honour, a small order of (chivalry ?)
in the UK. It is limited to (I think) 24 member and membership is in the
personal gift of the sovereign (currently Queen Elizabeth II).
Beecham was an eccentric man whose father ran a patent medicine business in
St. Helens, Lancashire, England (my own home town), from which he made a large
fortune.
Tommy, (as he was known to all orchestral musicians in England) had no formal
musical education, but conducted a small amateur orchestra in St. Helens.
His 'big' chance came when the Halle orchestra was due to play in St. Helens
but the conduct (Richter I think) failed to arrive.
Though he had a somewhat sarcastic manner, he had a great sense of humour and
was loved by public and musicians alike.
He was also perhaps the last of the Great Amateurs, in that during his
lifetime he spent several large fortunes on music in England forming a least
two orchestras (London & Royal Philharmonic Orchestras) and organising several
opera companies between the wars (in the '30s). I think he was bankrupt for
some years and abandoned music for several years to organise his finacial
affairs.
His great loves were Mozart, Handel, Richard Strauss, Delius and French music,
and was not a great lover of Bach or Beethoven (though he loved some pieces).
He particularly loved beautiful sound and phrasing and had the ability to
make quite minor works sound like works of genius.
While very much a man of his time, he is rembered with great affection by
music lovers in England. I never had the pleasure of seeing him myself but
listened to many concerts on the radio.
His recordings are still worth hearing, they have an inimitable stylishness.
Sorry to 'wax so lyrical', but I have a book of Beecham stories somewhere, if
anyone is interested I will try to find it and post a few.
Mike,
Michael P. Harrison - Software Group - Inmos Ltd. UK.
-----------------------------------------------------------
UK : m...@inmos.co.uk with STANDARD_DISCLAIMERS;
US : m...@inmos.com use STANDARD_DISCLAIMERS;
mike.siemon
> anyone who knows what the "BART. C.H." means after Beecham's name
It means "baronet" -- one of the lower and more recent grades of the
British peerage (created, I think by one of the George's or else by
that famous king William-and-Mary).
I vaguely recall that the title was created in correlation to the
suppression of various Jacobian revolts (the Scots are revolting!)
--
Michael L. Siemon "I cannot grow;
...!cucard!dasys1!mls I have no shadow
...!att!sfbat!mls To run away from,
standard disclaimer I only play"
Mark Gresham
>>I have the Messiah done by Shaw on RCA. I don't think he had heard about
>>any of this newfangled "original instrument" and "historically correct"
>>performances stuff yet. He did it much like I would envision Stokowski
>>would - massive chorus, no ornamentation, Verdian soloists. I far
>>prefer the Colin Davis (on Philips) of the same vintage.
>
>He certainly had heard of such things at the time; he used the new and
>scholarly Watkins Shaw edition (and announced the fact).
The same used by Margaret Hillis, FYI.
>Perhaps his
>chorus sounds overly heavy to you, but it is not massive, it was a
>moderate-to-small group. Likewise the soloists; Judith Raskin, Florence
>Kopleff, Richard Lewis, and the bass whose name escapes me couldn't have
>survived for a moment in Verdi. They may not have the slimmed-down
>sexless tones of some modern Messiah soloists, but for many of us that
>will be a plus (even if we otherwise like historically informed
>performances). I should add that I'm no great fan of the Robert Shaw
>RCA Messiah myself; but that's because it's rather boring, not because
>its scale or intentions are wrong.
Incidentally, a friend of mine was a tenor in that old Shaw
Chorale that recorded the RCA albums. It would be interesting to
post his feeling about it then, and his approach to 'Messiah' now.
More on this later...
Cheers,
--Mark
========================================
Mark Gresham ARTSNET Norcross, GA, USA
E-mail: ...gatech!artsnet!mgresham
or: artsnet!mgre...@gatech.edu
========================================
Joann Zimmerman
>In article <23...@ut-emx.UUCP>, jbo...@walt.cc.utexas.edu (John Bodnar) writes:
>> anyone who knows what the "BART. C.H." means after Beecham's name
>It means "baronet" -- one of the lower and more recent grades of the
>British peerage (created, I think by one of the George's or else by
>title was created in correlation to the suppression of various
>Jacobian revolts (the Scots are revolting!)
Actually, this title was created by Charles I. It was part of the
rather infamous "inflation of honours", undertaken by Charles as an
attempt to raise money. Baronetcies were sold for some price (I forget
what, and given inflation, it probably would not be relevant anyway),
as were other already established titles. In addition, Charles also
tried various creative schemes for tax-raising. This backfired, he had
to call a session of Parliament which he really didn't want, in order
to finance himself, and the rest unfortunately is history. The Long
Parliament included a number of disaffected Puritanical types, and the
English Civil War eventually resulted. All the Jacobite stuff happened
some decades later - the Glorious Revolution of 1688 in which William
and Mary took the throne in preference to the man who would have been
James III (hence "Jacobite"), and the Jacobite rebellions of 1715 and
1740.
Aside from its ultimate effects on Beecham's name (as well as that of
some other composers) this is at least marginally musically relevant
in that the English Civil War put the kibosh to anything which could
be regarded as an English musical tradition until the Restoration of
1660.
"And if you don't like these ironies, I have some others" - Julian Barnes
"[ Silicon Valley ] Where files take precedence over friends" - Vikram Seth
Joann Zimmerman jz...@walt.cc.utexas.edu cs.utexas.edu!walt!jzimm
fco...@gmail.com
Felipe
El martes, 16 de enero de 1990 12:03:49 UTC-3, Neil Midkiff escribió:
> In a recent discussion, the subject of orchestral music without
> violins came up. I could only think of two examples:
> Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #6 in Bb, and the second Serenade by
> Brahms, op. 16 in A major. Both have a rich, warm sonority which is
> very effective. Has this been exploited by other composers?
> One friend recalls that the violins are tacet for one movement of a
> longer chorus-and-orchestra work that he heard once, but he can't
> remember the particulars.
>
> This is not a trick question; please don't reply with pieces for wind
> band. What I'm interested in is orchestral music in which (at least
> for significant sections) the violins aren't playing but the lower
> strings and the rest of the orchestra go on without them.
>
> No prejudice here (I was a violinist myself once), just an interesting
> technique of orchestration. Let me know of any examples you can think
> of. Thanks!
>
> -Neil Midkiff
rober...@yahoo.com
> In a recent discussion, the subject of orchestral music without
> violins came up. I could only think of two examples:
> Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #6 in Bb, and the second Serenade by
> Brahms, op. 16 in A major. Both have a rich, warm sonority which is
> very effective. Has this been exploited by other composers?
> One friend recalls that the violins are tacet for one movement of a
> longer chorus-and-orchestra work that he heard once, but he can't
> remember the particulars.
>
> This is not a trick question; please don't reply with pieces for wind
> band. What I'm interested in is orchestral music in which (at least
> for significant sections) the violins aren't playing but the lower
> strings and the rest of the orchestra go on without them.
>
> No prejudice here (I was a violinist myself once), just an interesting
> technique of orchestration. Let me know of any examples you can think
> of. Thanks!
>
> -Neil Midkiff
Robert