Question about "Carmina Burana"
Kuo-Yeang Tsai
I am going to attend the "Carmina Burana" concert at Tanglewood this
coming Augst 8th and I have a question which has been on my mind for
a long time.
Why does it (Carmina Burana) sound demoniac?
Even without reading the somewhat offensive lyrics, friend asked
"Is this Satan-worshipping music?" upon hearing the first few
passages.
Thanks in advance for your answer!
kyt
Mr. John T Jensen
Because it was written by Carl Orff at the time when Germany was turning
Nazi (from the already screwed-up cultural background of the Weimar
Republic). Also because the lyricists who wrote the original poetry were
themselves often deeply involved in what eventually became the Renaissance
which had lots of gnosticism and return to classical (=pagan) roots.
IMHO, and mostly just a guess from the dates involved. So would someone who
knows the REAL history like to set me straight? Or confirm my guess?
jj
John Thayer Jensen 64 9 373 7599 ext. 7543
Commerce Computer Services 64 9 373 7437 (FAX)
Auckland University jt.j...@aukuni.ac.nz
Private Bag 92019
AUCKLAND
New Zealand
Edgar Erwin
>
> Why does it (Carmina Burana) sound demoniac?
>
Yes. The text was written by satan-worshiping monks.
Listen to it backwards and all will be revealed.
Cameron Neylon
>I am going to attend the "Carmina Burana" concert at Tanglewood this
>coming Augst 8th and I have a question which has been on my mind for
>a long time.
>Why does it (Carmina Burana) sound demoniac?
>Even without reading the somewhat offensive lyrics, friend asked
>"Is this Satan-worshipping music?" upon hearing the first few
>passages.
I hardly see that it sounds demonic. The first movement admittedly
is a very impressive and big, noisy etc. but its meant to be about fate
and the perpetual march of time, and exciting things like that.
The other movements don't (to me at least ) even vaguely suggest
devil worship. Take the dance and "blanziflor et helena" for instance
Both are exciting and full of exuberance, hardly terror.
I think the reason the first movement sounds demoniuc is that it
has benn used too many times in movies to create the scene for
devil worship scenes, rather than th other way around.
Cameron Neylon
c...@gu.uwa.edu.au
Colby Leider
Well, I agree that its use in movies and such to create a "satanic" environment
has contributed to this view of the work as sounding demoniac. Upon carefully
studying the poetry of the Carmina Burana, not only for its literary content but
also for the meaning of the lines, stated and implied, in combination with the
underlying thematic element of Fate and its inconstance, one then only fully
appreciate the musical genius of Carl Orff's "urgundmusik" (simple music), as he
himself called it.
Whether or not one agrees with the poetry (I particularly don't care for it),
the composer's purpose in writing choral music is unique in that he also must
succesfully work with and convey the meaning of the words he sets to music,
paying careful attention to not only their syllabically metronomic rhythms but
also using this in a way to often construct a musical "onomatopoeia." Thus, O
I think most would agree that the music in question does indeed convey the p
poetry, and one could, as you said, gather much as to the meaning and/or subject
matter of the work based solely on the music. However, "satan-worshipping "
is not the correct adjective to describe this work. It's more like
"Let's-complain-about-life-as-much-as-possible-in-sixty-minutes."
co...@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu
Steve Heller
The opening, 'O fortuna', is indeed ominous, but the only reason
people might associate it with Satanism is because it has been used
countless times in films, taking advantage of the raw, primitive power
of the opening and closing theme. The lyrics, however, are not even
slightly 'evil', but simply glorifying 'fate and fortune', empress of
the world (in a metaphorical sense). In actuality, the vast bulk of
the work is much less ominous than the opening/closing, dealing mostly
with pagan love and life, not demon-worship. And I personally don't
think the rise of Nazism had anything to do with the music, despite
its menacing tone.
--
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Arun Chandra
mu...@moravian.edu (Steve Heller) writes:
> And I personally don't think the rise of Nazism had anything to do
> with the music, despite its menacing tone.
The composer benefitted from Nazism. The successor to Carmina
Burana, Catulli Carmina, was commissioned by and had its premiere for
the Nazi government of Leipzig.
Arun Chandra
ar...@wri.com
--
Arun Chandra
ar...@wri.com
Mark Slagle
> Even without reading the somewhat offensive lyrics, friend asked
> "Is this Satan-worshipping music?" upon hearing the first few
> passages.
Just curious, but what about the lyrics did you find offensive?
--
----
Mark E. Slagle PO Box 61059
sla...@lmsc.lockheed.com Sunnyvale, CA 94088
408-756-0895 USA
Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik
>Kuo-Yeang Tsai writes:
>
>>Why does it (Carmina Burana) sound demoniac?
>
>>"Is this Satan-worshipping music?" upon hearing the first few
>>passages.
>
>turning Nazi (from the already screwed-up cultural background of the
>Weimar Republic). Also because the lyricists who wrote the original
>poetry were themselves often deeply involved in what eventually became
>the Renaissance which had lots of gnosticism and return to classical
>(=pagan) roots.
>
>IMHO, and mostly just a guess from the dates involved. So would
>someone who knows the REAL history like to set me straight? Or
>confirm my guess?
Oh dear. Lots of misconceptions here. Let's see if we can straighten
them out...
(Pulling out my handy Grout so as not to misspeak myself)
First the specific ones. _Carmina Burana_ gets its name from the
Bavarian monastery in which the original texts were found, and it
contains some of the oldest preserved specimens of what's called
Goliard songs, or secular music from the 11th, 12th and 13th
centuries. (The term comes from a patron Bishop Golias, who is
probably apocryphal.) Goliards were students or travelling clerics
who travelled from one school to another in the days before there were
resident universities. The texts come from what most young men were
interested in: wine, women and satire. Some of the lyrics are more,
shall we say, indelicate than others. Although not a lot of the
musical notation exists, enough is there for people to conjecture, and
there are recorded versions of these.
Orff wrote his _Carmina_ in 1937. It can either be performed in a
concert setting or as a "scenic cantata" with costumes and scenery.
To get the sound he got, he basically combined the sounds of folk
music with the chanting aspects of early church music, and threw in
the sonorities and rhythmic ideas popular in many works of the era
(Stravinsky ring any bells?). What all of this has to do with the
Nazi party, I have no idea.
I think the reason people may associate this piece (let's face it;
we're not talking about the whole thing at all, just that very first
movement) with "devil worship" or "demonism" or whatever crap you want
to call it is that it's been used in cheesy witchcraft movies. They
used it for the trailer to _Warlock_. They used it in the ridiculous
"witchcraft" scene in _The Doors_ (and believe me, that was not
witchcraft, just crap crap crap). I don't know if they used it for
the _Omen_ movies or if they just got music that sounded a lot like it
(it's been a long time). Okay, so they used it for the trailers to
_Hamlet_ and _Excalibur_ as well, but even _Excalibur_ has evil
witches in it.
Why do they use it for these things? I think it's the chanting
effect. Very powerful. I've always enjoyed it. That's why the
soundtracks to these two-bit horror movies incorporate every rip-off
to choral pieces like this that they can.
But please. This is not "devil-worshipping" music. It is secular.
Meaning not sacred. And it is not really pagan, for that matter. (I
hope I don't have to tell anyone that pagan does not mean satanic or
devil-worshipping or demonic or whatever.) You want demonic, listen
to the original finale to _Don Giovanni_. But if you don't want to
taint your ears with this evil pagan stuff, then I advise you to stay
far away from _The Rite of Spring_.
Devil-worshipping music. Sheesh.
--
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains." -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----a...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---
Olaf Titz
In <76...@ut-emx.uucp> ama...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu writes:
> John Thayer Jensen writes:
> >Kuo-Yeang Tsai writes:
> >
> >>Why does it (Carmina Burana) sound demoniac?
> >
> >>Even without reading the somewhat offensive lyrics, friend asked
> >>"Is this Satan-worshipping music?" upon hearing the first few
> >>passages.
> >
...
> Oh dear. Lots of misconceptions here. Let's see if we can straighten
> them out...
...
> I think the reason people may associate this piece (let's face it;
> we're not talking about the whole thing at all, just that very first
> movement) with "devil worship" or "demonism" or whatever crap you want
> to call it is that it's been used in cheesy witchcraft movies. They
...
> Why do they use it for these things? I think it's the chanting
> effect. Very powerful. I've always enjoyed it. That's why the
> soundtracks to these two-bit horror movies incorporate every rip-off
> to choral pieces like this that they can.
>
> But please. This is not "devil-worshipping" music. It is secular.
> Meaning not sacred. And it is not really pagan, for that matter. (I
Hmmmm.
On Orff, you're right. But on the impression one gets while listening
/Carmina Burana/ the whole discussion has missed an important point
(maybe it's important in Europe only):
Recently Orff's /Fortuna/ has been *ab*used in a whole different genre
of horror movies (non-:-) : i.e. TV commercials.
German, Swiss, maybe other Europeans now hear a 20-second /Fortuna/
cut-out and think: 'Wow! Swiss chocolate!' (no I don't mention the
brand, as it is known anyway). Now *that's* secular! And the reason
they chose Orff for selling chocolate is likely to be just the same
you stated for the B-pictures.
To not miss any possible point in commercialization, record companies
have even dared to sell LPs with selected bits of classical music used
in commercials (Mozart for champagne etc.); the LP has the same title
as the original chocolate commercial slogan.
And following this recent Chocolate-Orff-mania in Germany (record
stores never have been selling so much /Carmina Burana/ as during the
last six months) two versions of /Fortuna/ backed by disco beat have
been published but unFORTUNAtely got banned by the copyright holders.
(You may bash me but I am much less upset about the disco versions than
about the commercials.)
O tempora, o mores!
MfG,
Olaf
--
o
Olaf Titz \ s_t...@iravcl.ira.uka.de \ _/\
\ uk...@dkauni2.bitnet \ _//|_.
y.a. comp.sc.student \ +49-721-60439@voice \ (_)`(_)
Uni Karlsruhe, Germany \ praetoriu@irc \~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wenn Sie trockenen Wein m"ogen und haben nur zwei halbtrockene,
sch"utten Sie die zusammen, das ist dann ganz trocken.
- Thomas Gottschalk
Bradford Kellogg
In article <76...@ut-emx.uucp>, ama...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
|> John Thayer Jensen writes:
|> >Kuo-Yeang Tsai writes:
|> >
|> >>Why does it (Carmina Burana) sound demoniac?
|> >
|> >>Even without reading the somewhat offensive lyrics, friend asked
|> >>"Is this Satan-worshipping music?" upon hearing the first few
|> >>passages.
|> >
|>
|> Oh dear. Lots of misconceptions here. Let's see if we can straighten
|> them out...
|>
|> I think the reason people may associate this piece (let's face it;
|> we're not talking about the whole thing at all, just that very first
|> movement) with "devil worship" or "demonism" or whatever crap you want
|> to call it is that it's been used in cheesy witchcraft movies. They
|>
|> But please. This is not "devil-worshipping" music. It is secular.
|> Devil-worshipping music. Sheesh.
I wonder, Susan, if simply quoting (maybe paraphrasing a little) the
actual text of the first passage might help drive your point home
(Translated from the Latin):
"Oh fortune, variable as the moon, always dost thou wax and wane.
Detestable life, first dost thou mistreat us, and then, whimsically,
thou heedest our desires. One is cast down, another is lifted on high,
to enjoy a brief felicity. As the sun melts the ice, so dost thou
dissolve both poverty and power..."
Is this Satanic? Do fish ride bicycles?