Composers who knew each other
M Magers
and also remember some connection with Bruckner and Mahler. I can see
some similarities in the music of all three. Are there other major
composers who either knew or studied with each other?
M Magers
Abelard2
another. see:
http://members.aol.com/abelard2/march.htm
abelard2
the Davidsbündler site
http://members.aol.com/abelard2/davidsbuendler.htm
David Hurwitz
to reason that most living composers in a given region knew most of their
contemporaries, doesn't it?
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
Abelard2 <abel...@aol.comspamless> wrote in message
news:19991223111735...@ng-fe1.aol.com...
Jon
met, Bach knew the works of Vivaldi, some of which he transcribed.
Beethoven did some studies with Haydn. I saw once a photo of a league
of Scandanavian composers which had both Sibelius and Nielsen in it.
Samuel Barber and Gian Carlo Menotti shared a house as did Peter Pears
and Benjamin Britten.
In reading the various biographies of composers, it is sometimes hard
to pick out whether these relationship between many composers were
just professional associations or true friendships. It would appear
that most of the mid-twentieth century Soviet composers knew each
other, but it is very hard to determine from second hand sources
whether any of them were what I might call "drinking buddies." I did
read of an account once that Brahms and Dvorak got pretty drunk
together on at least one occasion. Brahms was very kind to Dvorak and
influences his publishers to take on Dvorak's works.
Likewise, I never really got the feeling that certain well-known
groups such as "the Russian Five" or "Les Six" in France were anything
much more than some journalist's lumping them together, or perhaps an
occasional foray into the issueance of a joint manifesto.
Jon Teske
Derek Haslam
<94736E7CF421B2CC.657B0C54...@lp.airnews.net>,
M Magers <abl...@airmail.net> wrote:
> Are there other major
> composers who either knew or studied with each other?
Berlioz and Mendelssohn knew each other - and neither could appreciate the
other's music.
Derek Haslam
--
__ __ __ __ __
/ \ | ||__ |__)/ | | |_ Derek Haslam: Acorn Computer Enthusiast
\_\/ |__||__ | \\__ |__| __| que...@argonet.co.uk
\ Mastery of the rules is a pre-requisite for creatively breaking them.
Mike Painter
> In article
> <94736E7CF421B2CC.657B0C54...@lp.airnews.net>,
> M Magers <abl...@airmail.net> wrote:
> > Are there other major
> > composers who either knew or studied with each other?
Didn't Beethoven study with Haydn for a little while?
cheers,
Mike
To respond via e-mail, remove * from address.
Paul mastr
lot of his time (student days) with Bruckner.
Mahler met Brahms when He (Mahler) was conducting Mozart's Don, and Brahms was
so impressed he came backstage to meet him.
MWindi4108
with Haydn and they were mutually very compatible.
Schuetz studied with Gabrieli
How far back to you want to go?
Mark Windisch
Always keen to learn.
Summusdeus
jzydek
Liszt and Wagner!!
Summusdeus <summu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991223181244...@ng-da1.aol.com...
> Liszt and Chopin
schi...@lightlink.com
on my part of recapitulation of topic of Liszt's book on Chopin in
Walker's biography Liszt: The Weimar Years, 1848-1861, pub by Cornell U
Press. I could easily be wrong here...)
-Eric Schissel (not claiming to represent Walker's position on the matter
either, and I don't have the bio in front of me or even nearby)
Nicolai P. Zwar
>
> Brahms knew Schumann. I seem to recall that Mahler studied with Brahms
> and also remember some connection with Bruckner and Mahler. I can see
> composers who either knew or studied with each other?
There are quite a few... an interesting - let's call it friendship - was
between Gustav Mahler and Richard Strauss, who knew each other and met
several times in their life.
--
Nicolai P. Zwar
It's not necessary part from your opponent with a kick in the butt if a
handshake will do.
Paul Dormer
<94736E7CF421B2CC.657B0C54...@lp.airnews.net>,
abl...@airmail.net (M Magers) wrote:
> Brahms knew Schumann. I seem to recall that Mahler studied with Brahms
> and also remember some connection with Bruckner and Mahler. I can see
> some similarities in the music of all three. Are there other major
> composers who either knew or studied with each other?
>
> M Magers
>
Now here's a sequence that amuses me. During the production of Wagner's
Parsifal in Bayreuth, one of Wagner's assistants was the young composer
Engelbert Humperdinck. Indeed, when extra music was needed for a scene
change, it was Humperdinck who composed it. Humperdinck went on to teach
Busoni and Busoni and Humperdinck taught Kurt Weill, who went on to write
some rather good Broadway shows.
Ivrys88
>Beethoven did study with Haydn but was ungracious about him. Mozart studied
>with Haydn and they were mutually very compatible.
Yes, there was that famous letter Haydn wrote to Leopold extolling Wolfgang as
a musician with "taste, and what is more, the most profound knowledge of
composition."
Haydn advised Beethoven not to publish the third of his three Trios Op.1, the
one that today is recognized as the most Beethovenian. This has often been
ascribed to professional jealousy, but maybe Haydn simply was concerned about
the music's reception by a conservative public.
Liszt, Chopin, Schumann and Mendelssohn all were acquainted with each other,
though probably not close friends--their backgrounds and tastes were too
different.
Margaret Mikulska
> Beethoven did study with Haydn but was ungracious about him. Mozart studied
> with Haydn and they were mutually very compatible.
Mozart never studied with Haydn. I hope you haven't read this anywhere,
because it's simply false.
In fact, when Mozart dedicated his 6 string quartets to Haydn, he
phrased the dedication in such a way as to emphasize that the two of
them, Haydn and Mozart, were fellow composers of equal standing and not
mentor/teacher and pupil, even though Haydn was 24 years older than
Mozart.
Beethoven studied with Haydn and Salieri, to mention only his better
known teachers.
And of course Mozart and Salieri knew each other; also Mozart and J.
Chr. Bach, a greatly underappreciated composer (nowadays, not in his
time). Obviously, Mozart met very many other composers during his
travels.
-Margaret
Leroy Curtis
s.net>, M Magers <abl...@airmail.net> writes
>Brahms knew Schumann. I seem to recall that Mahler studied with Brahms
>and also remember some connection with Bruckner and Mahler. I can see
>some similarities in the music of all three. Are there other major
>composers who either knew or studied with each other?
>
genuine fondness for each other. There is a record of them having played
at quartet parties together, along with Dittersdorf and Vanhal. Haydn
reportedly said to Leopold Mozart "I swear before God and as an honest
man that your son is the greatest composer known to me, either
personally or by reputation." Before Haydn's 1790 journey to London,
Mozart bid an affectionate farewell to his friend, and uttered the
prophetic words "Alas, dear Papa, I fear I shall never see you again,"
and indeed he didn't, for Mozart died before Haydn's return to Vienna.
Beethoven studied with Haydn for a short time in Vienna during the
1790s, but the relationship was never an easy one, since Haydn thought
Beethoven talented but headstrong, and Haydn himself was probably not
the most diligent of teachers (he was in his mid-sixties by this time,
and semi-retired). Despite their temperamental differences, however,
each had a healthy respect for the other's talents.
The story of Mozart's meeting with the young Beethoven, where he
reputedly said "Some day this young man will make a great noise in the
world," is probably apocryphal.
--
Regards
Leroy Curtis
Please replace "nospam" with "baram" in my address if you wish to
reply by Email
jan winter
They knew each other but weren't friends, at least not for very long.
Liszt's greatest friend in Paris (among the many composers he knew
that is) was Berlioz.
--
regards,
jan winter, amsterdam
(j.wi...@xs4all.nl)
music is the healing force of the universe
(Albert Ayler)
jan winter
<le...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Beethoven studied with Haydn for a short time in Vienna during the
>1790s, but the relationship was never an easy one, since Haydn thought
>Beethoven talented but headstrong, and Haydn himself was probably not
>the most diligent of teachers (he was in his mid-sixties by this time,
>and semi-retired). Despite their temperamental differences, however,
>each had a healthy respect for the other's talents.
Haydn wasn't semi-retired at all but very busy preparing music for his
London trip.
Greg
Miaskovsky, Miaskovsky and Khachaturian, Brahms and Dvorak, etc etc etc.
--
Later and 73
Greg to reply, change NOT to net
-------------------------------------
"M Magers" <abl...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:94736E7CF421B2CC.657B0C54...@lp.airnews.net...
Charles E. Ehrlich
There is the story I have heard several times, but have never seen a
source referenced:
When Mahler met Brahms in Salzburg, Brahms was complaining that after
Beethoven there was nothing more to be said in symphonic music, Beethoven
had said it all. Mahler looked out over the Salzach and gestured: "Look,
Maestro. Here comes the last wave."
Charles Ehrlich
Cambridge, Mass
Leroy Curtis
<j.wi...@xs4all.nl> writes
>On Fri, 24 Dec 1999 18:00:50 +0000, Leroy Curtis
><le...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Beethoven studied with Haydn for a short time in Vienna during the
>>1790s, but the relationship was never an easy one, since Haydn thought
>>Beethoven talented but headstrong, and Haydn himself was probably not
>>the most diligent of teachers (he was in his mid-sixties by this time,
>>and semi-retired). Despite their temperamental differences, however,
>>each had a healthy respect for the other's talents.
>
>Haydn wasn't semi-retired at all but very busy preparing music for his
>London trip.
>--
after the latter's second visit to London, although I stand to be
corrected.
Hans Christian Hoff
> Are there other major composers who either knew or studied with each other?
Edvard Grieg and Percy Grainger were great friends, and Wolfang Mozart of
course knew Leopold; but Grainger and Leopold do possibly not count as
major composers.
You also have the Russian 'mighty handful' (Mussorgsky, Balakirev,
Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov and Cui) who at times worked as a loosely
organized group.
Giuseppe Verdi and Arrigo Boito collaborated, Boito however in the
capacity of librettist. He was however an important composer in his own
right; his Mephistophele is still regularly performed, more than 100 years
after its first night.
Arnold Schönberg and Alban Berg were great friends; Schönberg was Berg's
tutor.
Regards
Hans
JHenry1975
>Arnold Schönberg and Alban Berg were great friends; Schönberg was Berg's
>tutor.
And rumor has it they both knew Webern. =o)
Joseph Henry
JHenry1975
Dukas taught Messiaen, who taught Boulez, Stockhausen, and Xenakis.
Zemlinsky taught Schoenberg, who taught Leon Kirchner, who taught John Adams,
who taught Aaron Jay Kernis.
Milton Babbitt taught Stephen Sondheim!
And Beethoven once met Liszt, who knew Wagner, the premiere of whose "Ring" was
attended by Tchaikovsky, who was seen in the flesh by Stravinsky, who attended
the premiere of "Pli selon Pli" by Boulez, who regularly conducts the music of
his friend Gyorgy Ligeti, who sued Stanley Kubrick, who directed "Eyes Wide
Shut" starring Tom Cruise, who starred in "A Few Good Men" with . . . Kevin
Bacon. =o)
Joseph Henry
Richard Shindle
Leroy Curtis <le...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tqwPVJAon$Y4E...@baram.demon.co.uk...
You stand corrected. Beethoven's period of study with Haydn began in 1792
and ended with Haydn's second sojourn to London
To understand more objectively the relationship of the Haydn's tutelage of
Beethoven, I refer you the the volume "The Great Composer as Teacher and
Student: Theory and Practice of Composition" by Alferd Mann, published by
Dover Publishers, 1994.
Richard Shindle
Frank Eggleston
book to Liszt's mistress.
Frank Eggleston
jan winter wrote:
>
> On 23 Dec 1999 23:47:10 -0500, schi...@lightlink.com wrote:
>
> >I don't think Liszt and Chopin did know each other? (Possible misunderstanding
> >on my part of recapitulation of topic of Liszt's book on Chopin in
> >Walker's biography Liszt: The Weimar Years, 1848-1861, pub by Cornell U
> >Press. I could easily be wrong here...)
> >-Eric Schissel (not claiming to represent Walker's position on the matter
> >either, and I don't have the bio in front of me or even nearby)
>
> They knew each other but weren't friends, at least not for very long.
> Liszt's greatest friend in Paris (among the many composers he knew
> that is) was Berlioz.
> --
> regards,
>
> jan winter, amsterdam
> (j.wi...@xs4all.nl)
>
> music is the healing force of the universe
> (Albert Ayler)
--
"All we ask is that you keep an open mind."
---- Dr. Hannibal Lecter,
as quoted by Thomas Harris
Tony Duggan
occasions. (Both married General's daughters.) I was at the Elgar Birthplace
museum in the Summer and saw the score of Ein Heldenleben inscribed to Elgar by
Strauss.
Speaking of Elgar, remember that, as a young man, he played in the violins when
Dvorak conducted his Stabat Mater and Sixth Symphony in Worcester Cathedral in
1884. Not a meeting, perhaps, but an encounter all the same. Dvorak NEARLY set
The Dream of Gerontius to music.
Tony Duggan, England.
My developing Mahler recordings survey:
Now containing Symphonies 1,2,4,5 and DLVDE:
http://www.musicweb.force9.co.uk/music/Mahler/index.html
Kip Williams
>
> Has anyone mentioned Elgar and Richard Strauss yet ? They met on a number of
> occasions. (Both married General's daughters.) I was at the Elgar Birthplace
> museum in the Summer and saw the score of Ein Heldenleben inscribed to Elgar by
> Strauss.
Hmmm... what degree of acquaintance is this thread about? I'm sure lots
of composers meet regularly, at Composer Camp, and places like that.
(You know, a bunch of composers in shorts, running around and composing
sonatas in the fresh mountain air.)
But seriously, Shostakovich met Bernstein. I remember the photo in
_Testimony_ of a group that included a beaming Bernstein and
Shostakovich, looking like he's under a death sentence.
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
jan winter
<eggl...@erols.com> wrote:
>Chopin dedicated the first book of his etudes to Liszt,
That was in 1832, just after Chopin had arrived in Paris and they were
still friends
> and the second book to Liszt's mistress.
...who was not only Liszt's mistress but also kept a salon of which
Chopin was a regular member.
Ethel Jean Saltz
<miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> wrote:
>Beethoven studied with Haydn and Salieri, to mention only his better
>known teachers.
=====================
I just saw Beethoven on Biography yesterday and it was Hayden and
Mozart and Mozart wrote that Beethoven was wonderful. The Biography
was different about his love life. Instead of being a womanizer, he
simply couldn't find that right match made in heaven. He was in high
society and these women who really loved him, opted for financial and
political security.
The Biography supported the POV that with his abusive upbringing
within the music environment, it's a miracle he became the imposing
composer he did. Defies all those child abuse stories. In fact, it
turns out that a large number of highly effective people were abused
as children.
Be-ahavah oo-ve-shalom, Queen Jean of Creekbend
Mac-Niet-Spin-Gal, 390 A.G. (after Galileo/5370)
mailto: nie...@airmail.net
Ethel Jean Saltz
-- his problem was Mozart. We'll never know the whole Clementi story
will we because so much of his works were trashed.
Plunus57
Delius was a friend of Grieg.
Schumann and Brahms, obviously.
Liszt met Brahms and was a friend of Chopin, Berlioz and Wagner.
Albeniz was a student of Liszt.
Dvorak played in an orchestra under the direction of Smetana.
Duparc was a student of Cesar Franck.
Debussy and Ravel in Paris.
Poulenc and Milhaud and Honegger (knew also Ravel and Satie)
De Falla was a friend with Debussy and Ravel when he lived in Paris for a
while.
Tchaikovsky knew Balakirev and Rimsky-Korsakov. I think he met Debussy in
Paris.
Both Prokofiev and Stravinsky studied with Rimsky-Korsakov. Both lived in Paris
in the 20s until mid 30s.They must have known Ravel and Poulenc etc.
Prokofiev went back to Russia in '36. He probably knew Shostakovich.
Stravinsky came to America in '39, must have known some American composers like
Copland and Bernstein, and they all must have known.....Rachmaninov who came
here in '36.
Gershwin, I think, took some lessons from Ravel.(?)
I wonder if Hindemith and Schonberg ever met in the U.S. They lived in
different coasts during the same years.
IT IS ENDLESS.........
Josh Klein
known each other.
I don't want to get into the Bach family, but we can note that Wagner and
Lizst would have known each other this way (in addition to their other
acquaintances), and we can probably assume that Suk and Dvorak knew
each other.
There are the composers who almost certainly knew each other just from
serving on the same faculty. (I don't know, though, whether Bartok/
Kodaly/Dohnanyi/Weiner were friends, for instance. But they certainly
would have known each other.)
And the virtuoso performer-composers who played together
(e.g., Kreisler & Rakhmaninov).
--
Josh Klein
Amherst College
Richard Shindle
Ethel Jean Saltz <nie...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:B737A2598F295935.04919A53...@lp.airnews.net...
> On Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:23:37 -0500, Margaret Mikulska
> <miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
> >Beethoven studied with Haydn and Salieri, to mention only his better
> >known teachers.
> =====================
> I just saw Beethoven on Biography yesterday and it was Hayden and
> Mozart and Mozart wrote that Beethoven was wonderful. The Biography
> was different about his love life. Instead of being a womanizer, he
> simply couldn't find that right match made in heaven. He was in high
> society and these women who really loved him, opted for financial and
> political security.
The biography you "saw" needs to be amended. Beethoven did go to Vienna to
study with Mozart, but was called home because of his mother's fatal
illness. Hr returned to Vienna to study with Haydn and when Haydn left for
his second London tour continued with Albrechtsberger. He also studied
settings o Italian texts with none other than the greatly maligned Antonio
Salieri. Among the studendts of Salieri are Mozart's sons, Beethoven,
Schubert and Liszt.
Richard Shindle
Richard Schultz
: Faure was a student of Saint-Saens, Ravel was a student of Faure.
Vaughan Williams studied with Ravel.
: Delius was a friend of Grieg.
Grieg met Liszt (who played the piano concerto at sight as well
as one of the violin sonatas -- i.e. both parts simultaneously.)
: Liszt met Brahms and was a friend of Chopin, Berlioz and Wagner.
At least some of these people knew Mendelssohn as well. I also believe
that Schumann and Chopin knew each other.
Rachmaninov played his 3d piano concerto with the New York
Philharmonic conducted by Mahler. Supposedly Mahler had with
him on his final return to Europe the score of Charles Ives's (!)
Third Symphony, but I don't know if the two ever met.
I don't think anyone has mentioned Bruckner and Wagner.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
-- Wanda Landowska
Leroy Curtis
<wrsh...@erols.com> writes
>
>Leroy Curtis <le...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:tqwPVJAon$Y4E...@baram.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <3863dc8e...@news.xs4all.nl>, jan winter
>> <j.wi...@xs4all.nl> writes
>> >
>> >London trip.
>> >--
>> Are you sure? I thought Beethoven's period of study with Haydn came
>> after the latter's second visit to London, although I stand to be
>> corrected.
>
>and ended with Haydn's second sojourn to London
>
>To understand more objectively the relationship of the Haydn's tutelage of
>Beethoven, I refer you the the volume "The Great Composer as Teacher and
>Student: Theory and Practice of Composition" by Alferd Mann, published by
>Dover Publishers, 1994.
>
Tony Dvorak
"Tony Duggan" <Tony....@ukgateway.net> wrote:
> Speaking of Elgar, remember that, as a young man, he played in the violins when
> Dvorak conducted his Stabat Mater and Sixth Symphony in Worcester Cathedral in
> 1884. Not a meeting, perhaps, but an encounter all the same. Dvorak NEARLY set
> The Dream of Gerontius to music.
And of course Dvorak & Brahms knew each other quite well & were
generally good friends. It is interesting to read in Geiringer's
biography of Brahms about a brief falling-out between the two when
Brahms expressed somewhat atheistic and/or agnostic tendencies in person
to the comparatively devout Dvorak.
Tony D.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
John Gavin
Rachmaninoff give Medtner financial support for many years.
Stravinsky and Scriabin
Busoni and Sorabji
JHenry1975
>Gershwin, I think, took some lessons from Ravel.(?)
Gershwin asked Ravel and Stravinsky (and, later, Schoenberg) for lessons, and
they each turned him down saying basically that they didn't want to mess with a
good thing.
And how could I forget? Schoenberg and Gershwin were tennis partners.
I think it's safe to say that most major composers would have met many of their
contemporaries, even if only on few occasions. But that doesn't mean they all
knew each other very well. Stockhausen once came to a function and brought one
of his girlfriends over to Aaron Copland so she could meet "the great American
composer Roy Harris." And Boulez once went to a dinner party hosted by Paul
Simon and, as he was leaving, went to Simon and said, "Thank you, Al, and give
my regards to your wife Betty." (Okay, that one was probably a joke.)
Joseph Henry
Jon
He [Beethoven] also studied
>settings o Italian texts with none other than the greatly maligned Antonio
>Salieri. Among the studendts of Salieri are Mozart's sons, Beethoven,
>Schubert and Liszt.
>
Beethoven dedicated his Op 12 violin sonatas to Salieri. Then again he
was also going to dedicate the Eroica to Napoleon who I presume
Beethoven never met. He also dedicated the Kreutzer sonata to
Rodolphe Kreutzer. Since Kreutzer was based in Paris I wonder if
Beethoven ever met him?? I don't know. Most accounts say that Kreutzer
was not well disposed of the sonata dedicated to him and there is no
evidence that he ever played it (in public, at least.) Anyone have
any scoop of this? Inquiring violinists want to know.
[Footnote to Kreutzer].. There was another Kreutzer, Conradin who must
have been enough of a composer that he is represented on some of the
more obscure labels. If Kreutzer had not won his ill-earned posthumous
fame from Beethoven [and Tolstoy, and Janacek] he would still be known
today among violinists since most of us who went beyond several years
of instruction had to play his 42 Etudes for Violin as part of our
violin curriculum. Absolutely every teacher I ever had beyond the
first 5-6 years either insisted I play Kreutzer's etudes or made sure
that I had previously studied them with a predecessor teacher.
Whenever I started with a new teacher after I had studied Kreutzer, I
always went through them because the new teacher was almost certain to
ask me to play some of them.
The most famous of these etudes (I think the second) was made sort of
immortal by Jack Benny in his comedy routines. He would fitfully saw
on that etude [to indicate he was serious, but that also he was pretty
bad]. Benny actually was a pretty decent violinist. I saw him on TV
once doing the Bach Double with Isaac Stern and he was at least
credible. Benny also toured the country for fundraisers for many
orchestras (including Washington DC where I live). I never saw him
(I was in my twenties then and these were high priced fundraisers) but
I believe he played the Mendelssohn or some equivalent concerto.
Jon Teske
>
>
Margaret Mikulska
>
> Margaret Mikulska wrote:
>
> >Beethoven studied with Haydn and Salieri, to mention only his better
> >known teachers.
> =====================
> I just saw Beethoven on Biography yesterday and it was Hayden and
There is no evidence whatsoever that Mozart said or wrote anything, good
or bad, about Beethoven. They most likely never even met. Sorry, but
this story about Mozart praising Beethoven is a 19th-c invention.
-Margaret
Joyce Maier
>On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 04:52:11 -0500, "Richard Shindle"
>
> He [Beethoven] also studied
>>settings o Italian texts with none other than the greatly maligned Antonio
>>Salieri. Among the studendts of Salieri are Mozart's sons, Beethoven,
>>Schubert and Liszt.
>>
>Beethoven dedicated his Op 12 violin sonatas to Salieri. Then again he
>was also going to dedicate the Eroica to Napoleon who I presume
>Beethoven never met.
True.
>He also dedicated the Kreutzer sonata to
>Rodolphe Kreutzer. Since Kreutzer was based in Paris I wonder if
>Beethoven ever met him?? I don't know.
Kreutzer visited Vienna. He was Beethoven's second choice. The sonata was
premiered by George Polgreen Bridgetower, but, according to Bridgetower, he
and Beethoven quarrelled about a girl and then Beethoven decided to dedicate
the sonata to Kreutzer. According to others Beethoven was not satisfied with
Bridgetower's performance.
Regards,
Joyce Maier
Ethel Jean Saltz
wrote:
>Then again he
>was also going to dedicate the Eroica to Napoleon who I presume
>Beethoven never met. He also dedicated the Kreutzer sonata to
>Rodolphe Kreutzer.
==================
He adored Napoleon because Beethoven really believed in freedom.
Napoleon was his model and hope for world freedom. And then Napoleon
went and did the dictator thing and it's called Eroica. It's exactly
this reason that I believe his Ode To Joy makes more sense
listening-wise as Ode To Freedom and so does the poem on which it is
based. Freedom was an F-word back then it seems.
So yes, Beethoven thought he KNEW Napoleon. Just like we think we KNOW
Clinton and Starr and Monica.:)
Margaret Mikulska
>
> >> Margaret Mikulska wrote:
> >>
> >> >Beethoven studied with Haydn and Salieri, to mention only his better
> >> >known teachers.
> By the way, why no mention of Beethoven's maost impostant teacher, the
> great Albrechtsberger--?
Just because Haydn and Salieri are better known. You might also ask,
why no mention of Neefe. So here it is.
-Margaret
Clovis Lark
Margaret Mikulska <miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> wrote:
>Ethel Jean Saltz wrote:
>>
>> Margaret Mikulska wrote:
>>
>> >Beethoven studied with Haydn and Salieri, to mention only his better
>> >known teachers.
>> I just saw Beethoven on Biography yesterday and it was Hayden and
>> Mozart and Mozart wrote that Beethoven was wonderful. [...]
>
>There is no evidence whatsoever that Mozart said or wrote anything, good
>or bad, about Beethoven. They most likely never even met. Sorry, but
>this story about Mozart praising Beethoven is a 19th-c invention.
I think this myth must hinge on that infamous letter which supposedly told
Beethoven to go to Vienna to receive the mantel from Mozart's shoulders.
By the way, why no mention of Beethoven's maost impostant teacher, the
great Albrechtsberger--?
> >-Margaret
>
Clovis Lark
jan winter <j.wi...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Dec 1999 18:00:50 +0000, Leroy Curtis
><le...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Beethoven studied with Haydn for a short time in Vienna during the
>>1790s, but the relationship was never an easy one, since Haydn thought
>>Beethoven talented but headstrong, and Haydn himself was probably not
>>the most diligent of teachers (he was in his mid-sixties by this time,
>>and semi-retired). Despite their temperamental differences, however,
>>each had a healthy respect for the other's talents.
>
>London trip.
Haydn had been prepared to bring Beethoven along as his protege. Then the
scandal burst as he discovered that Beethoven was offering him
compositions as assignments which had been composed earlier in Bonn and
already premiered. Beethoven further sealed his fate by refusing to
include the phrase "student of Haydn" on his first published compositions.
Clovis Lark
Greg <tag...@altavista.NOT (see below)> wrote:
>Glazunov and Shostakovich, Rimsky-Korsakov and Prokofiev, R-K and
>Miaskovsky, Miaskovsky and Khachaturian, Brahms and Dvorak, etc etc etc.
Brahms and Popper, Mozart and Dittersdorf, Boulez and Ligeti, Monod and
Lee...
>
>--
>Later and 73
>Greg to reply, change NOT to net
>-------------------------------------
>
>"M Magers" <abl...@airmail.net> wrote in message
>news:94736E7CF421B2CC.657B0C54...@lp.airnews.net...
>
>> some similarities in the music of all three. Are there other major
Clovis Lark
Popper/Brahms/Decsenyi and that great quartet, 3 of the members being:
Mozart/Haydn/Dittersdorf
Richard Shindle
> Mozart/Haydn/Dittersdorf
>
Richard Shindle
Richard Schultz
: Berlioz and Mendelssohn knew each other - and neither could appreciate the
: other's music.
I thought that Berlioz had said (or written in a letter) positive things
about Mendelssohn's "Die Erste Walpurgisnacht."
M Magers
but most of them I had not.
M Magers
M Magers wrote:
>...
>Are there other major
> composers who either knew or studied with each other?
>
> M Magers
Greg
--
Later and 73
Greg to reply, change NOT to net
-------------------------------------
"Clovis Lark" <cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:8494n3$7b9$3...@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu...
Clovis Lark
>> >>
>> >> >Beethoven studied with Haydn and Salieri, to mention only his better
>> >> >known teachers.
>> By the way, why no mention of Beethoven's maost impostant teacher, the
>> great Albrechtsberger--?
>
>why no mention of Neefe. So here it is.
Once again, no humor...
>
>-Margaret
>
JohnLFryer
writes:
>Are there other major
>> composers who either knew or studied with each other?
The list of course is endless -
Britten & Bridge
Ravel & Vaughan Williams
Schumann & Stanford
Satie & Duparc
Rachmaninov & Stravinsky
Bartok & Kodaly
Walton & Lambert
etc. etc. etc.
regards
John L Fryer
Matt Friedman
> And of course Dvorak & Brahms knew each other quite well & were
> generally good friends. It is interesting to read in Geiringer's
> biography of Brahms about a brief falling-out between the two when
> Brahms expressed somewhat atheistic and/or agnostic tendencies in person
> to the comparatively devout Dvorak.
And wasn't it Dvorak who got the often morose and self-serious Brahms to
lighten up a bit?
MF
guer...@my-deja.com
they were friends , by the biography of O. Neigbour ,
P.Griffiths , and G. Perle ( new groove series )
Guersoni-Giarola.
In article
<8995570E089806CF.D767B479...@lp.airnews.net>,
abl...@airmail.net wrote:
>
> M Magers wrote:
> >...
> >Are there other major
> > composers who either knew or studied with each other?
> >
> > M Magers
Joyce Maier
Clovis Lark wrote<8494cu$7b9$1...@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>...
>In article <3866C019...@silvertone.princeton.edu>,
>Margaret Mikulska <miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> wrote:
>>There is no evidence whatsoever that Mozart said or wrote anything, good
>>or bad, about Beethoven. They most likely never even met. Sorry, but
>>this story about Mozart praising Beethoven is a 19th-c invention.
>
>I think this myth must hinge on that infamous letter which supposedly told
>Beethoven to go to Vienna to receive the mantel from Mozart's shoulders.
No, the one who wrote that "letter" in 1792 (actually it wasn't a letter,
but a wish in a "friendship album", taken to Vienna by Beethoven when he
left Bonn), Count Waldstein, knew very well that Mozart had died in 1791. He
wrote that he hoped that Beethoven would receive Mozart's "spirit" from
Haydn's "hands". The myth about Mozart praising Beethoven most probably is
the result of a remark by Holz, a friend of Beethoven's, who met him for the
first time in 1825, which is 38 years after the possible (but very doubtful)
meeting between Beethoven and Mozart. For some unknown reason Holz decided
to throw the famous myth into the world after Beethoven's death. Maybe it
was just an example of "Wiener Stadtklatsch" and maybe Holz simply believed
it. Since he was seen as a reliable witness and a good friend of
Beethoven's, he was believed. But there's not slightest trace of a proof for
a meeting, let alone praising words by Mozart.
Regards,
Joyce Maier
Derek Haslam
> : Berlioz and Mendelssohn knew each other - and neither could appreciate the
> : other's music.
> I thought that Berlioz had said (or written in a letter) positive things
> about Mendelssohn's "Die Erste Walpurgisnacht."
Could be. I hadn't heard about this before. IIRC the antipathy of one
composer towards the other's music came mainly from Mendelssohn rather
than Berlioz. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the latter admired
D.E.W. The capering dance with which the Druids "see off" the spying
Christians ought to delight the man who wrote the "Dream of a Witches'
Sabbath". Splendid cantata altogether, and apparently an especial
favourite of the Mendelssohn family.
Derek Haslam
--
__ __ __ __ __
/ \ | ||__ |__)/ | | |_ Derek Haslam: Acorn Computer Enthusiast
\_\/ |__||__ | \\__ |__| __| que...@argonet.co.uk
\ Mastery of the rules is a pre-requisite for creatively breaking them.
Derek Haslam
<8995570E089806CF.D767B479...@lp.airnews.net>,
M Magers <abl...@airmail.net> wrote:
> Thanks to all who responded. Some of these associations I had heard of,
> but most of them I had not.
> M Magers
> M Magers wrote:
> >...
> >Are there other major
> > composers who either knew or studied with each other?
> >
> > M Magers
Has anyone mentioned Barber and Menotti?
Also Dvorak and Suk
Dvorak and Novak
Suk and Novak
Peter T. Daniels
>
> mwind...@aol.com (MWindi4108) wrote:
>
> >Beethoven did study with Haydn but was ungracious about him. Mozart studied
> >with Haydn and they were mutually very compatible.
>
> Yes, there was that famous letter Haydn wrote to Leopold extolling Wolfgang as
> a musician with "taste, and what is more, the most profound knowledge of
> composition."
>
> Haydn advised Beethoven not to publish the third of his three Trios Op.1, the
> one that today is recognized as the most Beethovenian. This has often been
> ascribed to professional jealousy, but maybe Haydn simply was concerned about
> the music's reception by a conservative public.
>
> Liszt, Chopin, Schumann and Mendelssohn all were acquainted with each other,
> though probably not close friends--their backgrounds and tastes were too
> different.
Schumann practically worshipped Mendelssohn; Liszt and Clara Schumann
were arch-rivals.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Peter T. Daniels
> The most famous of these etudes (I think the second) was made sort of
> immortal by Jack Benny in his comedy routines. He would fitfully saw
> on that etude [to indicate he was serious, but that also he was pretty
> bad]. Benny actually was a pretty decent violinist. I saw him on TV
> once doing the Bach Double with Isaac Stern and he was at least
> credible. Benny also toured the country for fundraisers for many
> orchestras (including Washington DC where I live). I never saw him
> (I was in my twenties then and these were high priced fundraisers) but
> I believe he played the Mendelssohn or some equivalent concerto.
In a recent interview, Isaac Stern said that of all the comedians who
made fun of classical musicians, Benny was the only one who didn't do it
in a mocking way -- he was entirely serious about the violin. In fact,
he thought Benny could have made it as a violinist; but Benny told him
that he was much better at what he did do than at what he might have
done as a musician (better a brilliant comedian than a pretty good
violinist).
The Mendelssohn is said to be the easiest of the major concertos, so
it's a frequent debut piece.
Apparently Danny Kaye was also a fine musician; he too did many benefits
as a conductor. (Hunter College has a recital hall/playhouse named for
him.)
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Salieri taught Liszt, who taught Saint-Saens, Bizet, and Smetana.
>
> Dukas taught Messiaen, who taught Boulez, Stockhausen, and Xenakis.
>
> Zemlinsky taught Schoenberg, who taught Leon Kirchner, who taught John Adams,
> who taught Aaron Jay Kernis.
>
> Milton Babbitt taught Stephen Sondheim!
>
> And Beethoven once met Liszt, who knew Wagner, the premiere of whose "Ring" was
> attended by Tchaikovsky, who was seen in the flesh by Stravinsky, who attended
> the premiere of "Pli selon Pli" by Boulez, who regularly conducts the music of
> his friend Gyorgy Ligeti, who sued Stanley Kubrick, who directed "Eyes Wide
> Shut" starring Tom Cruise, who starred in "A Few Good Men" with . . . Kevin
> Bacon. =o)
That's NINE Degrees of Kevin Bacon.
jan winter
wrote:
>Haydn had been prepared to bring Beethoven along as his protege. Then the
>scandal burst as he discovered that Beethoven was offering him
>compositions as assignments which had been composed earlier in Bonn and
>already premiered. Beethoven further sealed his fate by refusing to
>include the phrase "student of Haydn" on his first published compositions.
The story as told by Robbins Landon is somewhat different. In the
summer from 1792 Haydn returned from England with the intention to
return for the '93 season. On his way he travelled through Bonn where
he met Beethoven. Haydn was so much impressed by the music shown to
him that he wanted to take Beethoven with him on the planned '93 trip.
So in November '92 Beethoven joined him in Vienna. Only thing was, the
'93 trip to London didn't materialize, for three reasons: 1) Haydn had
to undergo a nose operation, 2) Prince Anton Esterhazy didn't want him
to go again (he "had acquired enough fame for himself") and 3) the
situation in France made it dangerous to travel all the way through
Europe. So, instead of taking Beethoven to England, Haydn took him for
the summer of '93 to Eisenstadt. At the end of that summer Haydn wrote
the famous letter to Beethoven's patron Maximilian Franz, stating that
his 'pupil' "will in time fill the position of one of Europe's
greatest composers" etc.
So I don't see the scandal you are talking about.
Joyce Maier
jan winter wrote:<387127d1...@news.xs4all.nl>...
No, your version is correct, but it's only half of the story. Clovis is
right about the scandal and it happened after the stay in Eisenstadt.
Beethoven had complained to Haydn about the money he received from the
elector and had shown Haydn so-called "new" compositions. But the elector
already knew them and Beethoven had not told the truth about the money. The
elector's reply to Haydn is very instructive about Beethoven's far from
honest "negotiations." Haydn wasn't pleased, no wonder. And yes, later on
Beethoven refused to call himself "student of Haydn". That's also true.
Regards,
Joyce Maier
jan winter
>No, your version is correct, but it's only half of the story. Clovis is
>right about the scandal and it happened after the stay in Eisenstadt.
>Beethoven had complained to Haydn about the money he received from the
>elector and had shown Haydn so-called "new" compositions. But the elector
>already knew them and Beethoven had not told the truth about the money. The
>elector's reply to Haydn is very instructive about Beethoven's far from
>honest "negotiations." Haydn wasn't pleased, no wonder. And yes, later on
>Beethoven refused to call himself "student of Haydn". That's also true.
Thank you for the completion of the story.
lord_e...@my-deja.com
I don't normally read this newsgroup, but happened to see the
following, and have some comments. (Please e-mail me if you want me
to respond...)
[Re: reasons for (supposed) problems between Beethoven and Haydn]
>No, your version is correct, but it's only half of the story. Clovis
>is right about the scandal and it happened after the stay in
>Eisenstadt. Beethoven had complained to Haydn about the money he
>received from the elector and had shown Haydn so-called "new"
>compositions. But the elector already knew them and Beethoven had not
>told the truth about the money. The elector's reply to Haydn is very
>instructive about Beethoven's far from honest "negotiations." Haydn
>wasn't pleased, no wonder. And yes, later on Beethoven refused to
>call himself "student of Haydn". That's also true.
There isn't enough evidence to support these conclusions - or the
overall conclusion that a "rift" really existed between Haydn and
Beethoven. The evidence usually cited is unreliable or can equally
well (or better) support an alternative hypothesis.
A thorough paper by James Webster analyzes the credibility of the
sources usually cited, and essentially concludes that the case for
animosity as it has been presented in e.g. Solomon's Beethoven
biography doesn't hold up. In particular, the above interpretation of
the Elector episode is debunked in this paper.
- James Webster, The Falling-out Between Haydn and Beethoven: The
Evidence of the Sources. Beethoven Essays in Honor of Elliot
Forbes. Lockwood, and Benjamin, Eds., 1984.
To quote: "No direct word or action of Haydn's or Beethoven's, and
few reliable contemporary observers, document any falling-out
or feeling of artistic incompability between the two."
The evidence for animosity rests partly on the case of the Bonn
compositions and Haydn's correspondence with the Elector, partly on
isolated remarks reported, and partly on Beethoven's supposed refusal
to describe himself as "Pupil of Haydn" on his first works. Other
evidence is sometimes cited as well (the falling through of Haydn's
supposed plan to take Beethoven along to England, Beethoven seeking
other teachers, and Haydn's reaction to Op. 1/3). Webster shows quite
convincingly that the large majority of this doesn't stand up, in
closer scrutiny, and the rest is too ambiguous to draw conclusions
from. In addition, proponents of the "rift" theory ignore many
indications that the relations between the two were, if not chummy,
certainly not hostile.
As for the Bonn compositions Beethoven gave to Haydn to send to the
Elector as proof of his progress in Vienna (as a basis for requesting
more money), Webster considers it very likely that Beethoven had no
intention of duping Haydn or the Elector in this matter. It's known
that Beethoven worked to significantly revise at least three of these
compositions in Vienna. It is more probable than not that Haydn as his
teacher was not in the dark about this; it's possible the revision was
done as an assignment from Haydn. Certainly everything in Haydn's
letter to the Elector is consistent with this. While it's true that
the Elector rebuffed Haydn's and Beethoven's request, stating as a
reason that the compositions were not new, this is not necessarily
indication of deception: an alternative conclusion is that the
Elector, who was not a musician, may have missed the point of sending
revised works as proof of progress. In an accompanying letter to the
Elector, given by Beethoven to Haydn to send, Beethoven quite directly
apologizes to the Elector for the works in question - such a letter
seems unlikely if he had intended to pass them off as major new
works. (As for the Elector's comments about Beethoven's salary -
Beethoven's Bonn salary was used to support his brothers.)
It's incorrect to say "no wonder Haydn was not pleased." Nothing more
is known about Haydn's or Beethoven's reaction in this matter. The
only thing that can be concluded is that the *Elector* was not
pleased, and that the Elector did not grasp the fact that the
works were revised. (This all assumes that the Elector's reply was
actually sent, or reached Haydn in time before his trip to London -
only a draft of the reply survives.) And incidentally, there is no
evidence Haydn ever planned to take Beethoven to London.
Not too exciting, but that's all there is.
There is evidence of continuing professional contact between Haydn and
Beethoven after this event. Further, very reliable (or direct)
evidence attests to each having made positive comments about the
other's compositional skills even after the supposed rift. There is
also the possibility that Haydn and Beethoven later saw more of each
other than is generally presumed, hinted at by an
example not mentioned by Webster: in an 1802 letter (#66
Anderson) Beethoven makes an offhand remark about taking a piano maker
to see Haydn regarding a new piano. Thus there *may* have been
occasional casual contact between the two - whatever the case, this
letter hardly supports the hostility theory.
There are a few famous remarks recounted by contemporaries (and many
of the arguments for a rift rest on these). However, not all the
accounts are reliable, and, further, both composers seem to have been
given to joking and sarcasm. To conclude animosity based on two or
three isolated statements, some of which can easily be jokes, seems
unwarranted, without knowing more about the context.
As for Beethoven as a young man, overwhelming evidence documents a
person who had high confidence in his talents - sometimes to the
point of almost unattractive arrogance. (The famous remark to Cremer
about a Mozart concerto seems more a spontaneous expression of
admiration, hardly evidence of self-doubt.) In his early 20's,
Beethoven was capable of bristling at an aristocrat's offhand (and at
that point, understandable) suggestion that Beethoven was not Handel's
equal. In addition, Beethoven prized originality.
It stands to reason that a composer with such a personality would have
been ill disposed to a request to describe himself as "Pupil of Haydn"
on the title pages of his first works - even if that story (which
rests on Ries' description alone) is true. The mere fact that
Beethoven refused wouldn't imply a major rift in relations, in
particular since Op. 2 is in fact dedicated to Haydn.
Webster concludes that, although he believes there was friction on
occasion, especially around 1800-1804, there's very little to support
the assumption that there ever was a falling-out between the
two. (However, Webster himself engages in some speculation regarding
the relations between the two composers in 1800-1804, which I buy at
most in part, for the same reasons - the evidence is hearsay, and not
particularly easy to interpret.) There is no major bias towards
Beethoven in the paper - Webster is, if anything, more sympathetic to
Haydn.
Since both composers seem to have been competitive individuals, it's
quite possible that there *was* friction between the two. However,
there's also evidence of continuing mutual respect and professional
contact after the date of the supposed rift, and many indications of
the absence of a truly hostile relationship. It seems that the
biographical tradition of a rift is (like so many other biographical
traditions) a suspect one.
Of course we don't know what Haydn's and Beethoven's relations were
*really* like. (And I at least don't particularly care, actually -
biographical information is in a way fun, but it's not my real
interest.) But it does annoy me some to see biographers present
so much speculation based on dubious scholarship as fact.
So while it's possibly OK to offer interpretations, it's best to
accompany them with the caution that the better documented "facts" are
scarce - and in this case, don't really support the claim.
Cheers,
Lena
Jarl Sigurd
M Magers wrote
.
>Brahms knew Schumann. I seem to recall that Mahler studied with Brahms
>and also remember some connection with Bruckner and Mahler. I can see
>some similarities in the music of all three. Are there other major
>composers who either knew or studied with each other?
There was the Russian circle of five, Mussorgsky, Borodin, Rimsky Korsakov,
Balkirev and Cui.
Jarl Sigurd
to listen to my midi guitar "clarinet conceto" visit
http://geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Pavilion/4085
James W. Waters
everybody who was anybody in artistic matters crossed paths with either
him or one of his mistresses or daughters
jan winter
>- James Webster, The Falling-out Between Haydn and Beethoven: The
> Evidence of the Sources. Beethoven Essays in Honor of Elliot
> Forbes. Lockwood, and Benjamin, Eds., 1984.
>
>To quote: "No direct word or action of Haydn's or Beethoven's, and
>few reliable contemporary observers, document any falling-out
>or feeling of artistic incompability between the two."
Seems like a very interesting article you quote here. I'll see if
there is any library in Amsterdam where I can find this.
Of course there is also the story of Beethoven, tears in his eyes,
kissing Haydn's hands at the Creation performance in honor of his 76th
birthday. Conducted by Salieri.
David Perkins
impromptu ballet together one evening with N. Rubenstein at the Piano on one of
Brahms' visits to Russia.
Jarl Sigurd wrote:
--
David M. Perkins
Assistant Director, University of Illinois Press
Director of Marketing
e-mail: dper...@uillinois.edu
UIP Website: http://www.press.uillinois.edu
Greg Dyer
"James W. Waters" <james.w...@vanderbilt.edu> wrote in message
news:387D01E3...@vanderbilt.edu...
> Franz Liszt knew damn near everybody. And not just musicians. It seems
> everybody who was anybody in artistic matters crossed paths with either
> him or one of his mistresses or daughters
>
Liszt invited Grieg to visit him at one point in time. Liszt sight read
Grieg's piano concerto and praised it, while Grieg was in awe at the number
of admirers and friends Liszt posessed. I believe Shumann knew Chopin
because he praised Chopin's 1st ballade, and Chopin dedicated his 2nd to
Shumann, at least according to the liner notes I read.
Dr S Hall
only close friends but critics of each other's music.
The OUP book 'Heirs and Rebels' is worth a read but to discuss contact
DrS...@aol.com
Stephen
Dr.Matt
Ethel Jean Saltz <nie...@airmail.net> wrote:
>So yes, Beethoven thought he KNEW Napoleon. Just like we think we KNOW
>Clinton and Starr and Monica.:)
Seems they've known each other rather well.
--
My CD "Kabala": http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields/cd.html
Matt Fields DMA http://listen.to/mattaj TwelveToneToyBox http://start.at/tttb
For spammers: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields/uce.htm
More for spammers: http://www.goldinc.com/cgi-bin/harvest_this.cgi
AVIKG
MAHLER/Richard Strauss
etc.
Adrian Hunter
>
> MAHLER/Brahms
>
> MAHLER/Richard Strauss
>
> etc.
Brahms/Bruch
Brahms/J. Strauss II
Brahms/Grieg
Brahms/Schumann (both, if we're pedantic)
Brahms/Joachim
Brahms/Liszt (a little less than the above)
The Russian 5: "Mighty Handful" (but I can only remember four so
I won't embarass myself.)
Les Six
The Monday Group--but I only know one of them was Blomdahl. In
fact I might even have the day wrong! (I am hopeless sometimes!)
Adrian
Paul Bodine
Nielsen/Sibelius
Nielsen/Stenhammar
Nielsen/Brahms
Zemlinsky/Schoenberg (related by marriage)
Zemlinsky/Webern
Zemlinsky/Berg
Zemlinsky/Mahler
Paul Bodine
Adrian Hunter <adrian...@ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3911C772...@ed.ac.uk...
schi...@lightlink.com
Brian/Bantock
Warlock(Heseltine)/Sorabji
Sorabji/Busoni
Rubbra/Simpson (not sure as to this one or Simpson/Holmboe, actually)
Brian/Simpson
Vaughan Williams/Holst
Liszt/(insert name here.) (just joking, sort of.)
Brahms/Schumann,Dietrich,Joachim,Goldmark,Fuchs
Fuchs/Sibelius,Mahler,Korngold,Zemlinsky,Heuberger,Melartin,Wolf,Schreker,Schmidt
Schreker/Rathaus,Krenek (hrm, many others also)
Leibowitz/Pettersson
(that's Leibowitz the Schoenberg pupil and later composer and conductor)
hrm...
schi...@lightlink.com
good friends and iirc pupil and teacher. But I may be mistaken on that latter
point!!
-Eric Schissel
Paul Bodine
former looked up to the latter rather than the other way around.
--
Paul Bodine
<schi...@lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:39120...@news2.lightlink.com...
Paul Bodine
Stravinsky-Rimsky-Korsakov (pupil-teacher)
vertigo
that verb!
--
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Chateau/6775/
****************************************************
"Oh eyes, no eyes, but fountains fraught with tears;
Oh life, no life, but lively form of death;
Oh world, no world, but mass of public wrongs."
Thomas Kyd, The Spanish Tragedy
****************************************************
Monsieur Tabernac
wrote:
>Clara Schumann KNEW Robert Schumann in BOTH senses (cognitive and carnal) of
>that verb!
(nudge nudge wink wink Know what I mean?)
Adrian Hunter
I forgot Brahms/Dvorak, and we both missed Brahms/Zemlinsky. IIRC
Brahms liked one of his quartets and recommended him for some
award or something.
Adrian
Paul Bodine wrote:
>
> Suk/Dvorak (related by marriage)
> Nielsen/Sibelius
> Nielsen/Stenhammar
> Nielsen/Brahms
> Zemlinsky/Schoenberg (related by marriage)
> Zemlinsky/Webern
> Zemlinsky/Berg
> Zemlinsky/Mahler
>
> Paul Bodine
>
> Adrian Hunter <adrian...@ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:3911C772...@ed.ac.uk...
> > Brahms/Bruch
patri...@my-deja.com
Elgar/Delius
Vaughan Williams/Holst
Patrick
In article <3911dbf6$0$63...@news.execpc.com>,
"Paul Bodine" <pbo...@execpc.com> wrote:
> Suk/Dvorak (related by marriage)
> Nielsen/Sibelius
> Nielsen/Stenhammar
> Nielsen/Brahms
> Zemlinsky/Schoenberg (related by marriage)
> Zemlinsky/Webern
> Zemlinsky/Berg
> Zemlinsky/Mahler
>
> Paul Bodine
>
> Adrian Hunter <adrian...@ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:3911C772...@ed.ac.uk...
> > AVIKG wrote:
> > >
> > > MAHLER/Brahms
> > >
> > > MAHLER/Richard Strauss
> > >
> > > etc.
> >
> > Brahms/Bruch
> > Brahms/J. Strauss II
> > Brahms/Grieg
> > Brahms/Schumann (both, if we're pedantic)
> > Brahms/Joachim
> > Brahms/Liszt (a little less than the above)
> >
> > The Russian 5: "Mighty Handful" (but I can only remember four so
> > I won't embarass myself.)
> > Les Six
> > The Monday Group--but I only know one of them was Blomdahl. In
> > fact I might even have the day wrong! (I am hopeless sometimes!)
> >
> >
> > Adrian
>
>
M Magers
husbands and wives who were composers? (PLEASE, no John Lennon and Yoko
OH NO nominations.)
M Magers
B Leris
>Monsieur Tabernac wrote:
> Clara Schumann KNEW Robert Schumann in BOTH senses (cognitive and carnal)
of
> that verb!
Buenaventura - BCN
Paul Bodine
Paul Bodine
B Leris <ble...@airtel.net> wrote in message
news:8ev334$4g...@news.airtel.net...
Paul Bodine
for Mahler the latter is supposed to have exclaimed "Send him to Zemlinsky!"
(for personal advanced lessons). So Zemlinsky had two fairly disparate
pupils: Schoenberg and Korngold!
Paul
Adrian Hunter <adrian...@ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3912C390...@ed.ac.uk...
>
> I forgot Brahms/Dvorak, and we both missed Brahms/Zemlinsky. IIRC
> Brahms liked one of his quartets and recommended him for some
> award or something.
>
> Adrian
>
>
> Paul Bodine wrote:
> >
> > Suk/Dvorak (related by marriage)
> > Nielsen/Sibelius
> > Nielsen/Stenhammar
> > Nielsen/Brahms
> > Zemlinsky/Schoenberg (related by marriage)
> > Zemlinsky/Webern
> > Zemlinsky/Berg
> > Zemlinsky/Mahler
> >
> > Paul Bodine
> >
> > Adrian Hunter <adrian...@ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
> > news:3911C772...@ed.ac.uk...
>
JHenry1975
>Stravinsky-Debussy
>Stravinsky-Rimsky-Korsakov (pupil-teacher)
Stravinsky-Tchaikovsky (okay, he just spotted him once at a concert)
Stravinsky-Boulez
Joseph Henry
Paul Bodine
point of agreement was the cuisine (German).
Brahms and Tchaikovsky also met once, I think, and were polite
though they didn't care for each other's music.
Nielsen and Stravinsky also met in Copenhagen, as did Stravinsky and
Zemlinsky, in Prague. Stravinsky later said that the best conductor he ever
saw was Zemlinsky (conducting a Mozart opera, I think).
Mahler paid Brahms a visit near the end of the latter's life.
Paul Bodine
JHenry1975 <jhenr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000505180427...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
Sudhir Kadkade
<4D48E1B8FA0A3FD3.9DC01770...@lp.airnews.net>...
>Well said. They were, of course, husband and wife. Are there any other
>husbands and wives who were composers? (PLEASE, no John Lennon and Yoko
>OH NO nominations.)
>
Gustav Mahler/Alma Mahler
and
Gustav Mahler/Zemlinsky are linked through Alma.
Alma was Zemlinsky's student (and perhaps more?).
>M Magers
vertigo
> Well said. They were, of course, husband and wife. Are there any other
> husbands and wives who were composers? (PLEASE, no John Lennon and Yoko
> OH NO nominations.)
>
Paul & Linda McCartney!
Burt Bacharach & (former spouse) Carole Bayer Sager (though she probably writes the
lyrics). Don't forget the Mendelssohn's (Fanny & Felix); I mean they knew each
other as siblings, not as lovers.
evan johnson
: Brahms and Tchaikovsky also met once, I think, and were polite
:though they didn't care for each other's music.
"I played through the music of that scoundrel Brahms. What a talentless
bastard!"
-- P. I. Tchaikovsky
Evan
Evan Johnson, music composition major, Yale University
*****The Naxos/Arte Nova Recommended Recordings List*****
Email evan.johnson@[remove]yale.edu to get a copy or
submit a recording to be added.
schi...@lightlink.com
Hans von Bronsart and Ingeborg Starck von Bronsart.
(Both Liszt pupils.)
-Eric Schissel
Paul Bodine
Definitely more according to de la Grange in his Mahler biography (vol. 2).
They were apparently intimate (in a manner of speaking) at least once, and
in her diaries Alma claimed to be emotionally torn for a while at least
between Z. and Gustav . . .
Paul Bodine
Sudhir Kadkade <Sudhir_...@SiFR.com> wrote in message
news:8f1hok$3n3$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> M Magers wrote in message
> <4D48E1B8FA0A3FD3.9DC01770...@lp.airnews.net>...
> >Well said. They were, of course, husband and wife. Are there any other
> >husbands and wives who were composers? (PLEASE, no John Lennon and Yoko
> >OH NO nominations.)
> >
>
>
paul stanbrook
Regards,
Paul
Thomas J Wood
paul stanbrook <paul.st...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:KFjR4.726$Eu2....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Berkeley-Britten-Tippett
And Copland/Bernstein probably knew each other VERY well.
Tom Wood
Adrian Hunter
>
> Brahms and Bruckner are said to have met once over dinner, though the only
> point of agreement was the cuisine (German).
> though they didn't care for each other's music.
> Zemlinsky, in Prague. Stravinsky later said that the best conductor he ever
> saw was Zemlinsky (conducting a Mozart opera, I think).
I don't know the details of that story, but I think Brahms late
in life saw Mahler conduct a Mozart opera, and thought it was the
best performance of it he ever heard.
Adrian
schi...@lightlink.com
of concerts.
-Eric Schissel
vertigo
--
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"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules."
George Bernard Shaw, MAN AND SUPERMAN
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