Moussorgsky anti-semitic???
Dan Leeson: LEESON@admin.fhda.edu
to do with Wagner. One avenue of discussion was that the
music of Alberich was designed to be derogatory to Jews (though
I am not sure what that meant because I a not familiar with
what Alberich does). Bottom line was that I dismissed the
notion out of hand.
Well, I was just practicing the Pictures at an Exhibition in the
Ravel arrangement, 'cause I have to play it in two weeks and I came
to the movement called "Samuel Goldenberg und Schmuyle."
Perhaps I was sensitized by the Wagner discussion, or perhaps I am
seeing things, but this movement sounds offensive to me. It is
charicature music of the ugliest kind. (I am not referring to the
music itself, only what I am reading into it.)
Am I imagining all of this or is this movement of Pictures just
a plain onld anti-semitic stereotype?
Dan Leeson, Los Altos, CA
lee...@admin.fhda.edu
Vance Maverick
Am I imagining all of this or is this movement of Pictures just
a plain onld anti-semitic stereotype?
You're not imagining it. Can anyone who's seen the picture comment?
Vance
Roger Lustig
>Ravel arrangement, 'cause I have to play it in two weeks and I came
>to the movement called "Samuel Goldenberg und Schmuyle."
>Perhaps I was sensitized by the Wagner discussion, or perhaps I am
>seeing things, but this movement sounds offensive to me. It is
>charicature music of the ugliest kind. (I am not referring to the
>music itself, only what I am reading into it.)
>Am I imagining all of this or is this movement of Pictures just
>a plain onld anti-semitic stereotype?
That's exactly what it is, and a stereotype of the slimiest kind.
The picture on which the movement is based shows two faces of the
*same* Jew (not "Two Jews, one rich, the other poor" as some
programs state); the idea is that under the skin of the wealthy
Samuel Goldenberg is Schmuyle (Yiddish for "Sammy"), the nasty
beggar.
Roger
Gabriel M. Kuper
You're definitely not imagining it--have a look sometime at the libretto
of Sorochintsky Fair (his last opera) for worse.
It seems that the original title was actually "Samuel" Goldenberg and Schmuyle,
implying that they are both the same person.
My score has copies of the pictures and claims that this particular one
was in Mussorgsky's private collection and is now lost. Taruskin claims
that the picture never existed, and therefore the title, with all its implications,
is entirely Mussorgsky's own.
Gabriel Kuper
Michael Beauvois (stage)
>>>Dan Leeson (LEE...@admin.fhda.edu) writes:
>Well, I was just practicing the Pictures at an Exhibition in the
>Ravel arrangement, 'cause I have to play it in two weeks and I came
>to the movement called "Samuel Goldenberg und Schmuyle."
>Perhaps I was sensitized by the Wagner discussion, or perhaps I am
>seeing things, but this movement sounds offensive to me. It is
>charicature music of the ugliest kind. (I am not referring to the
>music itself, only what I am reading into it.)
>Am I imagining all of this or is this movement of Pictures just
>a plain onld anti-semitic stereotype?
>>>Roger Lustig (ro...@faust.Princeton.EDU) replies:
>That's exactly what it is, and a stereotype of the slimiest kind.
>The picture on which the movement is based shows two faces of the
>*same* Jew (not "Two Jews, one rich, the other poor" as some
>programs state); the idea is that under the skin of the wealthy
>Samuel Goldenberg is Schmuyle (Yiddish for "Sammy"), the nasty
>beggar.
My edition of 'Pictures' has reproductions of all the surviving
pictures (drawn by Hartmann) that inspired Mussorgsky. There are
two drawn by Hartmann when he visited the Jewish quarter of a Polish
city (I forget which one at the moment), *both* of which served as the
basis for the 'stereotyped' piece under discussion. One picture shows an
affluent Jew, the other shows a poor one with his worldly belongings
in a sack in front of him. The faces are different in each picture.
It seems to me that, in this piece, Mussorgsky uses the 2 separate
themes to contrast the pomposity of affluence with the desperation
of poverty, and not necessarily as a vehicle to express anti-semitic
sentiments.
A further point: it seems to me that this piece has, in effect, acted
as a musical Rorschach test. That is, the individual perceives within
the piece what his own prejuduces bias him toward. Perhaps, as Dan Leeson
suggests, some people have been oversensitised by the Wagner debate into
perceiving anti-semitism where none exists.
Mike.
Robin Fairbairns
|> Ravel arrangement, 'cause I have to play it in two weeks and I came
|> to the movement called "Samuel Goldenberg und Schmuyle."
|>
|>
|> Am I imagining all of this or is this movement of Pictures just
|> a plain onld anti-semitic stereotype?
One has to remember that Mussorgsky lived in Tsarist Russia, which was
notable for its oppressive behaviour towards the Jews. Mussorgsky
probably was an anti-semite, but I don't imagine that he conjured his
stereotype out of his own head - it'll have been something that he
learned at his nurse's knee, in a country where Jews had to have visas
to work outside the ghetto where they lived.
--
Robin (Keep Radio 3 != Classic FM) Fairbairns r...@cl.cam.ac.uk
U of Cambridge Computer Lab, Pembroke St, Cambridge CB2 3QG, UK
Stevan Apter
Bullshit.
>
>A further point: it seems to me that this piece has, in effect, acted
>as a musical Rorschach test. That is, the individual perceives within
>the piece what his own prejuduces bias him toward. Perhaps, as Dan Leeson
>suggests, some people have been oversensitised by the Wagner debate into
>perceiving anti-semitism where none exists.
Are you kidding? Check out Taruskin's recent bio of Mussorsky. The
man hated Jews. Period.
>
>
> Mike.
>
>
Ray Horton
DL>.#FROM :Dan Leeson: LEE...@admin.fhda.edu N
DL>.#MSGID :<930901230...@univax.fhda.edu> N
DL>From: leeson%avax...@univax.fhda.edu (Dan Leeson: LEE...@admin.fhda.edu)
DL>Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
DL>Subject: Moussorgsky anti-semitic???
DL>Date: 1 Sep 1993 18:10:50 -0500
DL>Message-ID: <930901230...@univax.fhda.edu>
Dan Leeson writes:
DL>Well, I was just practicing the Pictures at an Exhibition in the
DL>Ravel arrangement, 'cause I have to play it in two weeks and I came
DL>to the movement called "Samuel Goldenberg und Schmuyle."
DL>Perhaps I was sensitized by the Wagner discussion, or perhaps I am
DL>seeing things, but this movement sounds offensive to me. It is
DL>charicature music of the ugliest kind. (I am not referring to the
DL>music itself, only what I am reading into it.)
DL>Am I imagining all of this or is this movement of Pictures just
DL>a plain onld anti-semitic stereotype?
This may not make it any less anti-semitic, but in the interest of
accuracy I will pass what I remember along: Moussorgsky titled the
movement "Two Jews, One Rich and One Poor" (I may not have that word
for word.) The title "Samuel Goldenberg and Schmuyle" was added by
the publisher (or was it added only to the Ravel orchestration?)
who assumed that a Hartmann painting by that name was the movement's
inspiration. Moussorgsky, however, likely was refering to two
Hartmann paintings in his own collection, one titled "A Rich Jew",
the other titled "A Poor Jew".
Russia does not have a glorious history when it comes to treatment
of Jews, of course, but concerning whether or not the movement is
offensive, just imagine it as titled "Two Men, One Rich and One Poor".
The character of the music still is strong, and the association is
less offensive. It is the word "Jew", (which any non-Jewish Russian
in those times would never leave out of a description of a Jewish
person whether or not any offense was meant) which makes it offensive.
I am not suggesting changing the title either on paper on in our
minds, just illustrating a point.
Ray Horton
ray.h...@tfd.coplex.com
---
. DeLuxe. 1.25 #12024 . The music's kinda nice. My compliments to the clef
clovis lark
>Btw, Taruskin also chips away a bit at the defense that all Russians
>were like that at the time, by describing the example of Rimsky-Korsakov
>who encouraged his daughter to marry a Jewish student of his. To the best of
>my knowledge no other major Russian composer (no major composer anywhere?) has
>introduced anti-semitism into his music to the degree that Mussorgsky did.
>Gabriel Kuper
But Taruskin's annecdotal mention of R-K's decision in encouraging his daughter
to marry a Jewish student of his sounds like defending Wagner's true feelings
by pointing out that he hired Hermann Levi to conduct Parsifal. It almost
smacks of "Me? Anti-semitic? But some of my best friends are Jews!" No, all
Russians weren't like that then, but many, many were and are.
Gabriel M. Kuper
Completely wrong. Mussorgsky called the movement "Samuel" Goldenberg
and Schmuyle--the publisher is unlikely to have "assumed" that a Hartmann
painting of that title was the movement's inspiration, as there
is no evidence (other that the "Pictures" movement--a rather circular argument)
that such a painting ever existed. Stassov, who was very close to Mussorgky,
at least some of the time, was the one who claimed that it was a conflation
of two Hartmann paintings, and may have been the one to introduce the
"Two Jews" title.
> Russia does not have a glorious history when it comes to treatment
> of Jews, of course, but concerning whether or not the movement is
> offensive, just imagine it as titled "Two Men, One Rich and One Poor".
> The character of the music still is strong, and the association is
> less offensive. It is the word "Jew", (which any non-Jewish Russian
> in those times would never leave out of a description of a Jewish
> person whether or not any offense was meant) which makes it offensive.
>
> I am not suggesting changing the title either on paper on in our
> minds, just illustrating a point.
>
> Ray Horton
> ray.h...@tfd.coplex.com
> ---
> . DeLuxe. 1.25 #12024 . The music's kinda nice. My compliments to the clef
>
I'm afraid there is no need to bring in Russian history here. Mussorgsky,
while not being the only anti-semitic Russian conposer, was certainly one
of the most virulent, as a glance at his correspondence, or the libretto
to his last opera shows. The first scene has caricatures of what the
(soviet) critical edition describes as Jews, but with square brackets, to
indicate editorial emmendation. Taruskin, in the book that has
already been referred to, make a convincing case that Mussorgksy actually
referred to them as "zhids". A later scene involves the taunting of a Jewish
character by holding up a pig's head at his window.
There is so much confirming evidence about Mussorgsky that it is extremely
unlikely that the "Pictures" movement was as innocent as some people
claim.
Richard M. Berrong
To the best of
>my knowledge no other major Russian composer (no major composer anywhere?) has
>introduced anti-semitism into his music to the degree that Mussorgsky did.
>
>Gabriel Kuper
I suppose that depends on how you define "major composer". There is, for
example, Halevy's once popular opera, "La Juive", which presents a Jewish
father about as sympathetic as Shylock in Shakespeare's play. There is also
Offenbach's (yes, Offenbach's!) one major opera, "The Tales of Hoffmann",
in one of the acts of which there are nasty comments made about a Jewish
money lender (Eleazir, or something to that effect). In fact, without
spending time going over it again, my memory is that most of the examples
of anti-Semitism that I came up with in opera some time back came from
French opera. I have no idea why. Italy had such a small Jewish population
that it would make sense they would not appear in Italian opera. On the
other hand, why are such examples not equally prevalent in German opera,
or am I simply unfamiliar with the works in which it occurs?
Richard Berrong
Gustavo Comezana
It is intersting that you should bring Offenbach and Halevy into the
discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was fully convinced that
they were Jewish.
And speaking of the portrayal of Jews in Italian opera, I may be wrong
again, but I seem to remember having read that Mascagni's "L'amico
Fritz" involves Jewish characters. Would anyone familiar with this
work confirm or deny this?
Gustavo
The Conformist Contrabass Clarinetist
This summer I worked with a person by the name of Teddy Gray II. He was the
youngest soloist ever (age 9) in the Messiah with the Chicago Symphony
Orchestra and the Chicago all-city choirs. He's soon to turn 21, so I
guess a recording, if one exists, would be about 11-12 years old. If anyone
has a recording of this concert, I would like to borrow it if possible.
Thanks for help!
--Andrea
clovis lark
>Richard Berrong
Oh they are there indeed! In Wozzeck, there is the passage where a pair of
eyes glint so brightly that they should be plucked out and sold{to the Jew.
I believe the line was in Buchner's original, but Alban Berg caught a lot
of grief from Arnold Schoenberg for its inclusion. Wagner's depiction of the
sneaky malformed conniving Nibelungen is generally accepted as a caricature
of jewish stereotypes. Beckmesser also comes up in this topic.
Richard M. Berrong
|In article <26ltvo$n...@usenet.mcs.kent.edu> rber...@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (Richard M. Berrong) writes:
|>In article <CD1Ds...@ecrc.de> ku...@ecrc.de (Gabriel M. Kuper) writes:
|>
|>To the best of
|>>my knowledge no other major Russian composer (no major composer anywhere?) has
|>>introduced anti-semitism into his music to the degree that Mussorgsky did.
|>>
|>>Gabriel Kuper
|>
|>I suppose that depends on how you define "major composer". There is, for
|>example, Halevy's once popular opera, "La Juive", which presents a Jewish
|>father about as sympathetic as Shylock in Shakespeare's play. There is also
|>Offenbach's (yes, Offenbach's!) one major opera, "The Tales of Hoffmann",
|>in one of the acts of which there are nasty comments made about a Jewish
|>money lender (Eleazir, or something to that effect). In fact, without
|>spending time going over it again, my memory is that most of the examples
|>of anti-Semitism that I came up with in opera some time back came from
|>French opera. I have no idea why. Italy had such a small Jewish population
|>that it would make sense they would not appear in Italian opera. On the
|>other hand, why are such examples not equally prevalent in German opera,
|>or am I simply unfamiliar with the works in which it occurs?
|>
|>Richard Berrong
|>
|
|It is intersting that you should bring Offenbach and Halevy into the
|discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was fully convinced that
|they were Jewish.
Yes and no. Both were born Jewish, but both, to the best of my
recollection, converted. That may explain why they went out of their
way to be anti-Semitic, i.e., to show that they were no longer Jewish.
|
|And speaking of the portrayal of Jews in Italian opera, I may be wrong
|again, but I seem to remember having read that Mascagni's "L'amico
|Fritz" involves Jewish characters. Would anyone familiar with this
|work confirm or deny this?
Yes, and thereby hangs an interesting tale. "L'Amico Fritz" has as
a main character a rabbi, who is something of a Yenta - a man who
arranges marriages. (Please note: His portrayal in the opera is
totally positive.) During the Second World War, at which time Italy
had officially adopted a modified version of Hitler's anti-Semitism,
a recording of the opera was made, with Mascagni conducting. (It is
a wonderful recording, by the way.) In that recording, the rabbi
becomes a doctor!
|
|
| Gustavo
Richard Berrong
Gabriel M. Kuper
> |
> |It is intersting that you should bring Offenbach and Halevy into the
> |discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was fully convinced that
> |they were Jewish.
>
> Yes and no. Both were born Jewish, but both, to the best of my
> recollection, converted. That may explain why they went out of their
> way to be anti-Semitic, i.e., to show that they were no longer Jewish.
> |
Offenbach, possibly. I'm pretty sure that Halevy did not convert, and that
the portrayal of Elazar was meant to be positive. It can be read that way,
and I don't recall reading attacks on its alleged anti-semitism dating from
before the last few decades. Richard Tucker tried hard to get the Met
to stage it for him, and I remember hearing an Israeli broadcast of the
opera (in Hebrew).
Elazar's revenge is completely motivated in the opera, and his subsequent
behaviour is not that different from many other operatic characters
(for a close parallel, think of Azucena--or will this start off a "gypsies in
opera" thread...). In fact his portrayal resembles Shylock (at least in the
monologue), in that it can be read both ways. I'm almost certain
that what now appears to us to be anti-semitic had no such connotations
for the composer.
That said, I still find it hard to believe that a Jewish composer could have set
the Passover scene with a straight face...
> |And speaking of the portrayal of Jews in Italian opera, I may be wrong
> |again, but I seem to remember having read that Mascagni's "L'amico
> |Fritz" involves Jewish characters. Would anyone familiar with this
> |work confirm or deny this?
>
> Yes, and thereby hangs an interesting tale. "L'Amico Fritz" has as
> a main character a rabbi, who is something of a Yenta - a man who
> arranges marriages. (Please note: His portrayal in the opera is
> totally positive.) During the Second World War, at which time Italy
> had officially adopted a modified version of Hitler's anti-Semitism,
> a recording of the opera was made, with Mascagni conducting. (It is
> a wonderful recording, by the way.) In that recording, the rabbi
> becomes a doctor!
> |
> |
> | Gustavo
>
> Richard Berrong
>
There was also, believe it or not, a Nazi version of Judas Maccabeus,
modified (probably without too much difficulty) to some episode in German
history...
Gabriel Kuper
Gabriel M. Kuper
As a defense of the Russian people, I agree: it is basically the same.
I think he is using this example less to excuse other Russians, but rather
to attack the defense (already made in this discussion)
that they didn't know better.
By pointing out that there were prominant Russian figures that were
not infected he is trying to make Mussorgsky's behaviour less defensible,
not to defend anti-semitism, as in the "some of my best friends" argument.
(As for Hermann Levi, Wagner himself damaged that defense by trying to get
him to convert...)
Gabriel Kuper
Francois Velde
>example, Halevy's once popular opera, "La Juive", which presents a Jewish
>father about as sympathetic as Shylock in Shakespeare's play. There is also
>Offenbach's (yes, Offenbach's!) one major opera, "The Tales of Hoffmann",
>in one of the acts of which there are nasty comments made about a Jewish
>money lender (Eleazir, or something to that effect). In fact, without
>spending time going over it again, my memory is that most of the examples
>of anti-Semitism that I came up with in opera some time back came from
>French opera. I have no idea why. Italy had such a small Jewish population
>that it would make sense they would not appear in Italian opera.
For the record, the Jewish population in France until 1870-80 was quite
small (about 50,000 out of 35 millions). I don't imagine the appearance
of those stereotypes in opera are readily explainable by the size of the
Jewish population in the given country. Why would Offenbach put such
"nasty comments" if that is what they are? The _Tales of Hoffmann_
were written after 1870, when Napoleon III's Empire collapsed, and so
did in some way the society which Offenbach spoofed, and delighted.
Defeat, especially such a humiliating one, brought out many ugly feelings,
and anti-semitism was one. Offenbach, trying to start another career
as a "serious" composer, may have put those comments in as a sort of
insurance, to assuage antisemites.
--
Francois Velde
Jochen Krimphoff (stage)
>>Michael Beauvois (beau...@ircam.fr) writes:
>My edition of 'Pictures' has reproductions of all the surviving
>pictures (drawn by Hartmann) that inspired Mussorgsky. There are
>two drawn by Hartmann when he visited the Jewish quarter of a Polish
>city (I forget which one at the moment), *both* of which served as the
>basis for the 'stereotyped' piece under discussion. One picture shows an
>affluent Jew, the other shows a poor one with his worldly belongings
>in a sack in front of him. The faces are different in each picture.
>It seems to me that, in this piece, Mussorgsky uses the 2 separate
>themes to contrast the pomposity of affluence with the desperation
>of poverty, and not necessarily as a vehicle to express anti-semitic
>sentiments.
>> Stevan Apter (ap...@fid.morgan.com) replies:
>Bullshit.
I was bowled over by the eloquence and articulateness of Mr Apter's
response. However, it would be nice if he would qualify his statement
rather than making a somewhat uninformative assertion. Perhaps this
time he could use words of more than 2 syllables.
>>Ray Horton (ray.h...@tfd.coplex.com) states:
>Russia does not have a glorious history when it comes to treatment
>of Jews, of course, but concerning whether or not the movement is
>offensive, just imagine it as titled "Two Men, One Rich and One Poor".
>The character of the music still is strong, and the association is
>less offensive. It is the word "Jew", (which any non-Jewish Russian
>in those times would never leave out of a description of a Jewish
>person whether or not any offense was meant) which makes it offensive.
>I am not suggesting changing the title either on paper on in our
>minds, just illustrating a point.
Which leads back to my original point about the piece acting as
a Rorschach test to expose peoples' perceptual biases.
I still think that the piece is essentally a contrast between the
rich and the poor, and uses the 2 themes to describe the speech
patterns of the 2 men. One being pompous and confident, the other
being whining and desperate.
Here's an extract from a letter written by Mussorgsky to his friend
Stassov whilst on a tour of southern Russia in 1879 -
"On the steamer to Sevastopol I wrote down Greek and Jewish songs, as
sung by some peasant women, and I sang the latter with them myself...
In Odessa I went to holy services in two synagogues, and was in raptures.
I have clearly remembered two Israelite themes."
Doesn't sound like the attitude of a rabid anti-semite to me.
Mike.
Gabriel M. Kuper
>
>
> >>Ray Horton (ray.h...@tfd.coplex.com) states:
> >Russia does not have a glorious history when it comes to treatment
> >of Jews, of course, but concerning whether or not the movement is
> >offensive, just imagine it as titled "Two Men, One Rich and One Poor".
> >The character of the music still is strong, and the association is
> >less offensive. It is the word "Jew", (which any non-Jewish Russian
> >in those times would never leave out of a description of a Jewish
> >person whether or not any offense was meant) which makes it offensive.
> >I am not suggesting changing the title either on paper on in our
> >minds, just illustrating a point.
>
> Which leads back to my original point about the piece acting as
> a Rorschach test to expose peoples' perceptual biases.
> I still think that the piece is essentally a contrast between the
> rich and the poor, and uses the 2 themes to describe the speech
> patterns of the 2 men. One being pompous and confident, the other
> being whining and desperate.
I notice that he avoids responding to my comments, preferring to attack the less
informative responses with the same viewpoint. The notorious "Samuel" Goldenberg
and Schmuyle title appears on Mussorgsky's holograph score--and that, rather that
the "bullshit" response you quote, is what makes in clear that it is anti-semitic,
not something to do with people's "perceptual biases".
> Here's an extract from a letter written by Mussorgsky to his friend
> Stassov whilst on a tour of southern Russia in 1879 -
>
> "On the steamer to Sevastopol I wrote down Greek and Jewish songs, as
> sung by some peasant women, and I sang the latter with them myself...
> In Odessa I went to holy services in two synagogues, and was in raptures.
> I have clearly remembered two Israelite themes."
>
> Doesn't sound like the attitude of a rabid anti-semite to me.
>
> Mike.
>
Wow, talk about "some of my best friends"!
What about the letter where he says that they actually seem human for a moment
when singing their own music? And many other letters with similar comments?
And the libretto for Sorochintsky Fair?
Gabriel Kuper
Stevan Apter
>
>>>Michael Beauvois (beau...@ircam.fr) writes:
>>My edition of 'Pictures' has reproductions of all the surviving
>>pictures (drawn by Hartmann) that inspired Mussorgsky. There are
>>two drawn by Hartmann when he visited the Jewish quarter of a Polish
>>city (I forget which one at the moment), *both* of which served as the
>>basis for the 'stereotyped' piece under discussion. One picture shows an
>>affluent Jew, the other shows a poor one with his worldly belongings
>>in a sack in front of him. The faces are different in each picture.
>>It seems to me that, in this piece, Mussorgsky uses the 2 separate
>>themes to contrast the pomposity of affluence with the desperation
>>of poverty, and not necessarily as a vehicle to express anti-semitic
>>sentiments.
>
>>> Stevan Apter (ap...@fid.morgan.com) replies:
>>Bullshit.
>
>I was bowled over by the eloquence and articulateness of Mr Apter's
>response. However, it would be nice if he would qualify his statement
>rather than making a somewhat uninformative assertion. Perhaps this
>time he could use words of more than 2 syllables.
Bull-ah-shit.
I sent you in the direction of a recent, decent discussion of the
matter. And?
As for Samuel vs. Schmuyel, an interpretation more consistent with
the historical facts, and with the central doctrine of *racial*
antisemitism, is that just beneath the surface of the assimilated,
converted Jew there lurks the grasping, sneaky Zhid.
Once again, I suggest that you consult the relevant sections of Taruskin's
recent study. And while you're at it, you might wish to read Paul Lawrence
Rose's new book on Wagner.
Roger Lustig
>In article <1993Sep9.0...@midway.uchicago.edu> gus...@arcana.uchicago.edu (Gustavo Comezana) writes:
>|In article <26ltvo$n...@usenet.mcs.kent.edu> rber...@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (Richard M. Berrong) writes:
>|>In article <CD1Ds...@ecrc.de> ku...@ecrc.de (Gabriel M. Kuper) writes:
>|>To the best of
>|>>my knowledge no other major Russian composer (no major composer anywhere?) has
>|>>introduced anti-semitism into his music to the degree that Mussorgsky did.
>|>I suppose that depends on how you define "major composer". There is, for
>|>example, Halevy's once popular opera, "La Juive", which presents a Jewish
>|>father about as sympathetic as Shylock in Shakespeare's play. There is also
>|>Offenbach's (yes, Offenbach's!) one major opera, "The Tales of Hoffmann",
>|>in one of the acts of which there are nasty comments made about a Jewish
>|>money lender (Eleazir, or something to that effect). In fact, without
>|>spending time going over it again, my memory is that most of the examples
>|>of anti-Semitism that I came up with in opera some time back came from
>|>French opera. I have no idea why. Italy had such a small Jewish population
>|>that it would make sense they would not appear in Italian opera. On the
>|>other hand, why are such examples not equally prevalent in German opera,
>|>or am I simply unfamiliar with the works in which it occurs?
a) Italy had a substantial Jewish population. But it was pretty well
integrated into cultural life.
b) For a real French anti-Semitic composer, check out Vincent D'Indy
and his Legend of St. Christopher.
>|It is intersting that you should bring Offenbach and Halevy into the
>|discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was fully convinced that
>|they were Jewish.
>Yes and no. Both were born Jewish, but both, to the best of my
>recollection, converted.
Recollect again. Halevy was assimilated, but proudly Jewish.
>That may explain why they went out of their
>way to be anti-Semitic, i.e., to show that they were no longer Jewish.
Neither of them ever did this. Furthermore, I would suggest that y'all
become a little more familiar with La Juive before calling it anti-Semitic.
Roger
Jeff Winslow
>Russia does not have a glorious history when it comes to treatment
>of Jews, of course, but concerning whether or not the movement is
>offensive, just imagine it as titled "Two Men, One Rich and One Poor".
>The character of the music still is strong, and the association is
>less offensive.
Pardon me, I don't see how it would be offensive in *any* way if that
wording was used.
> It is the word "Jew", (which any non-Jewish Russian
>in those times would never leave out of a description of a Jewish
>person whether or not any offense was meant) which makes it offensive.
It seems to me the parenthetical comment tends to negate the rest of the
sentence.
In article <CD54r...@ecrc.de> ku...@ecrc.de (Gabriel M. Kuper) writes:
>The notorious "Samuel" Goldenberg
>and Schmuyle title appears on Mussorgsky's holograph score--
Really! Is this in the Taruskin? The "source" I have claims the author of
this title is unknown.
But I notice you don't say the title appears in Moussorgsky's handwriting -
only the score. :-)
Perhaps unfortunately, the piece remains intrinsically interesting and
admirable as one of the earliest examples of polytonality.
Jeff Winslow
Gabriel M. Kuper
>
> In article <CD54r...@ecrc.de> ku...@ecrc.de (Gabriel M. Kuper) writes:
>
> >The notorious "Samuel" Goldenberg
> >and Schmuyle title appears on Mussorgsky's holograph score--
>
> Really! Is this in the Taruskin? The "source" I have claims the author of
> this title is unknown.
>
> But I notice you don't say the title appears in Moussorgsky's handwriting -
> only the score. :-)
>
>
Yes, it's in the Taruskin. He says it's "clearly visible"--nothing about the
handwriting, though...
He gives a reference to a 1975 Russian facsimile of the score. Does anybody
with access to a good library want to check this? I can give the
full reference if you want.
Gabriel Kuper
Bob Kosovsky
>In article <1993Sep14.1...@credence.com>, je...@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow) writes:
>> In article <CD54r...@ecrc.de> ku...@ecrc.de (Gabriel M. Kuper) writes:
>>>The notorious "Samuel" Goldenberg
>>>and Schmuyle title appears on Mussorgsky's holograph score--
>> this title is unknown. But I notice you don't say the title appears
>> in Moussorgsky's handwriting - only the score. :-)
>handwriting, though...
>He gives a reference to a 1975 Russian facsimile of the score. Does anybody
>with access to a good library want to check this? I can give the
>full reference if you want.
I am looing at this very nice facsimile of "Pictures From An Exhibition"
(so reads the English translation on the cover). And yes, it says
No. 6, "Samuel" Goldenberg und "Schm"uyle."
...in Roman characters. It's interesting to note that Mussorgsky didn't
always write the titles in the same ink as the notes (i.e. some titles he
added later, such as the ballad of chicks in their shells).
What's really interesting, though, is that this edition includes full color
reproductions. The images upon which Sam & Shmuel were based are actually
two separate pictures (today residing in the State Tretyakov Gallery in
Moscow). I consider myself a fairly conscientious Jew, but I don't
find the pictures to be stereotyped or that much anti-Semitic (unless
one wants to consider the mere desire of singling out Jews for portrayal
as anti-Semitic). One of the pictures is called "A rich Jew in a fur hat"
- which shows a profile of a bearded man with a yarmulke (presumably it's
a yarmulke made from fur, but one wouldn't know it save for the title).
Further, the person being protrayed is not necessarily affluent; many
Hasidic sects use fur-lined headwear (though usually not for yarmulkes -
at least today in the US). Using mostly browns and black the picture
seems to be a study of textures more than anything else.
The other picture is called "A poor Jew (An old man)." This is a picture
of a person seated in front of a building (or similar brick structure),
his hat on a sack, his face looking down in the direction of his hands
in which are grasped a cane. Unlike the previous picture, one would
not assume this man is Jewish without the title. Like other pictures
in this set Hartmann seems to be playing with light, so that as we
look at this person from the front (medium close-up, as one would say
in film parlance), the light gets darker from the clothes, but at the
center is brighter because of the man's gray hair and beard. This gray
seems to correspond to the grayness of the sidewalk and of what seems like
an alley to the right of the seated figure. Anyway, the hat is not
one that I would associate with Jews (looks more like something that
the Pilgrims of 1624 would wear).
It was nice to look at the pictures in color - the b/w replicas in
a current edition don't do them justice. (The notes for this edition
seem to indicate that there are various books reproducing Hartmann's work
which are currently available.) I can't say whether this edition is
still in print.
Helpfully yours,
Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
Internet: k...@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu Bitnet: k...@cunyvms1.bitnet
Music Division -- New York Public Library
Internet: koso...@nyplgate.nypl.org
Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
Ray Horton
GM>.#FROM :ku...@ecrc.de N
GM>.#MSGID :<CD1Ds...@ecrc.de> N
GM>Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
GM>From: ku...@ecrc.de (Gabriel M. Kuper)
GM>Subject: Re: Moussorgsky anti-semitic?
GM>Message-ID: <CD1Ds...@ecrc.de>
GM>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 13:07:45 GMT
GM>In article <7526.148.uupcb#tfd.coplex.com>, ray.h...@tfd.coplex.com (Ray Horton) writes:
> DL>.@SUBJECT:Moussorgsky anti-semitic??? N
> DL>.#FROM :Dan Leeson: LEE...@admin.fhda.edu N
> DL>.#MSGID :<930901230...@univax.fhda.edu> N
> DL>From: leeson%avax...@univax.fhda.edu (Dan Leeson: LEE...@admin.fhda.edu)
> DL>Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
> DL>Subject: Moussorgsky anti-semitic???
> DL>Date: 1 Sep 1993 18:10:50 -0500
> DL>Message-ID: <930901230...@univax.fhda.edu>
>
GM>Completely wrong. Mussorgsky called the movement "Samuel" Goldenberg
GM>Gabriel Kuper
Yes, perhaps my memory fades since studying the work 25 years on my own
as a high school student. Fortunately, I DO rememember how to phrase
a correction of someone else's error in a polite and respectful way.
Obviously, not all of us here do.
Ray Horton
ray.h...@tfd.coplex.com
---
. DeLuxe. 1.25 #12024 . Always be sincere, even if you don't mean it.