How do you pronounce Prokofiev?
Monkeymoo
usenet archives. It's also not included in the FAQ. Thanks for any help.
The Bibliographer
Monkeymoo <monkey...@aol.com> wrote:
>I have looked for this everywhere, including wading through hundreds of old
>usenet archives. It's also not included in the FAQ. Thanks for any help.
I say "pro-COUGH-eee-efff" (COUGH as in what you do when you smoke too
much). At least my Slavic friends don't smile, so it must be reasonably
close to correct.
--
Regards, Frank Young
tip...@wam.umd.edu 703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"
John Harrington
news:fVCVb.2821$4I6.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> I have looked for this everywhere, including wading through hundreds of
old
> usenet archives. It's also not included in the FAQ. Thanks for any help.
pruh-KOH-fee-eff.
J
Mike Harris
I live in Prague, the more or less correct "Slavic" pronunciation would be:
pro - ko - fyeff more or less three syllables, not four
Mike Harris
John Harrington
news:2e2a4e89.04020...@posting.google.com...
I live in the 'States, where the correct American pronunciation holds sway.
J
Paul Ilechko
>>I live in Prague, the more or less correct "Slavic" pronunciation would
>
> be:
>
>>pro - ko - fyeff more or less three syllables, not four
>
>
> I live in the 'States, where the correct American pronunciation holds sway.
>
That would no doubt be "Fook-Yoo-Russky-Eff".
Dr.Matt
Radio stations here are gradually coming out of the dark ages.
Pronunciation of this name as three accented syllables is catching on.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing in canon!
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
John Harrington
news:TRRVb.1796$Nz2....@news.itd.umich.edu...
> In article <YPRVb.17603$F23....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> John Harrington <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >"Mike Harris" <harr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:2e2a4e89.04020...@posting.google.com...
> >> "John Harrington" <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >news:<E6GVb.20577$uM2....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> >> > "Monkeymoo" <monkey...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:fVCVb.2821$4I6.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> >> > > I have looked for this everywhere, including wading through
hundreds
> >of
> >> > old
> >> > > usenet archives. It's also not included in the FAQ. Thanks for any
> >help.
> >> >
> >> > pruh-KOH-fee-eff.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > J
> >>
> >> I live in Prague, the more or less correct "Slavic" pronunciation would
> >be:
> >>
> >> pro - ko - fyeff more or less three syllables, not four
> >
> >I live in the 'States, where the correct American pronunciation holds
sway.
> >
> >
> >J
>
> Radio stations here are gradually coming out of the dark ages.
> Pronunciation of this name as three accented syllables is catching on.
No it isn't.
J
Paul Ilechko
>
> No it isn't.
gotta love the witty repartee.
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Reminds me of the Monty Python argument clinic:
Michael Palin: An argument isn't just saying "no it isn't"!
John Cleese: Yes it is.
Michael Palin: No it isn't!
--
Regards,
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Helsinki, Finland
To reply by e-mail, remove EQUALS.
"Nil significat nisi oscillat. Du vap. Du vap. Du vap."
John Harrington
news:4027F60E...@patmedia.net...
> John Harrington wrote:
>
> >
> > No it isn't.
>
> gotta love the witty repartee.
I note you conveniently snipped Dr. Matt's equally "witty" unsubstantiated
assertion.
J
John Harrington
news:4027FCC0...@pp.htv.fi...
>Paul Ilechko wrote:
>> John Harrington wrote:
>>>
>>> No it isn't.
>>
>> gotta love the witty repartee.
>
> Reminds me of the Monty Python argument clinic:
>
> Michael Palin: An argument isn't just saying "no it isn't"!
> John Cleese: Yes it is.
> Michael Palin: No it isn't!
Yeah, that's really funny, Jaakkoff. Not.
J
Jerry Kohl
I see that Dr. Matt and John Harrington are at it again, further down this
thread, but I should like to add that the disputed "syllable" in question
involves the "soft sign" (the Cyrillic letter that looks like a lowercase
'b' in the Latin alphabet), used in Russian to indicate a soft preceding
consonant and (in this case) a "y" glide into the following vowel. In
more strict transliteration, the composer's name is rendered "Prokof'ev",
with the apostrophe standing for the soft sign. The second syllable takes
the accent, and the vowel therefore is pronounced relatively long, like
the o in "cost"; the 'o' in the first syllable is more like the 'a' in "father",
only shorter, and the 'e' following the 'y' sound in the last syllable is
very short, as in "yet". The 'r' of course is not as in (American) English,
but is "flapped", more or less as in Spanish or Italian. Mike Harris
has marked the final consonant as 'ff' probably to emphasize the
shortness of the preceding 'e', but it is a "hard" (that is, unpalatalized)
'f' sound (the 'v' loses its voice in final position), though in an English-
speaking context this is probably a subtlety not worth worrying about.
--
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Jerry Kohl
> Paul Ilechko wrote:
> > John Harrington wrote:
> >>
> >> No it isn't.
> >
> > gotta love the witty repartee.
>
> Reminds me of the Monty Python argument clinic:
>
> Michael Palin: An argument isn't just saying "no it isn't"!
> John Cleese: Yes it is.
> Michael Palin: No it isn't!
It would save us all a lot of trouble if we could get Dr Matt
to change his name to "Michael" ...
John Harrington
news:4028096C...@comcast.net...
<snips>
> I see that Dr. Matt and John Harrington are at it again,
Yeah, kinda like you and Nightingale, except with one one billionth the
posts.
><snip a whole bunch of useless pseudo scholarly nonsense> though in an
English-
> speaking context this is probably a subtlety not worth worrying about.
In an English speaking context, it is pronounced pruh-KOH-fee-eff, with very
few slightly different variants.
Any English speaker who goes around pronouncing Prokofiev as if he were a
Russian is a pretentious twit and should probably, as some used to say
during the Cold War, move to fucking Moscow.
J
Phil Wood
seems more Noel Coward that American to me!
Phil
Dr.Matt
Dr.Matt
Dr.Matt
>> I live in Prague, the more or less correct "Slavic" pronunciation would be:
>>
>> pro - ko - fyeff more or less three syllables, not four
>
>I see that Dr. Matt and John Harrington are at it again, further down this
Nah, I just answered the original poster and happened to attach my answer
to Harrington's, and now he's making noise.
I didn't get time to really explore the Smichov district or the
Vyshrad when I was there. Will have to get back some day.
Dr.Matt
See, the French have an official academy, and the Americans have...
this guy.
Monkeymoo
Romeo and Juliet this week, especially since I took 4 years of Russian and
should know better. But thanks for the great reply! I think I'll go with
pro - ko - fyeff, and if anyone says anything, I'll get fancy and throw in
that soft sign stuff.
"Jerry Kohl" <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4028096C...@comcast.net...
> I see that Dr. Matt and John Harrington are at it again, further down this
Monkeymoo
With the accent on "pro" or "ko?"
Thanks
"Mike Harris" <harr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2e2a4e89.04020...@posting.google.com...
> I live in Prague, the more or less correct "Slavic" pronunciation would
Nightingale
Jerry Kohl wrote:
> Jaakko Mäntyjärvi wrote:
>
>
>>Paul Ilechko wrote:
>>
>>>John Harrington wrote:
>>>
>>>>No it isn't.
>>>>
>>>gotta love the witty repartee.
>>>
>>Reminds me of the Monty Python argument clinic:
>>
>>Michael Palin: An argument isn't just saying "no it isn't"!
>>John Cleese: Yes it is.
>>Michael Palin: No it isn't!
>>
>
> It would save us all a lot of trouble if we could get Dr Matt
> to change his name to "Michael" ...
>
LOL!
--
The better the voyce is, the meeter it is to honour and
serve God there-with: and the voyce of man is chiefely
to be imployed to that ende.
Omnis spiritus laudet Dominum.
-William Byrd
Nightingale
John Harrington wrote:
> "Jerry Kohl" <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:4028096C...@comcast.net...
> <snips>
>
>>I see that Dr. Matt and John Harrington are at it again,
>>
>
> Yeah, kinda like you and Nightingale, except with one one billionth the
> posts.
>
A slight exaggeration.
>
>><snip a whole bunch of useless pseudo scholarly nonsense> though in an
>>
> English-
>
>>speaking context this is probably a subtlety not worth worrying about.
>>
>
> In an English speaking context, it is pronounced pruh-KOH-fee-eff, with very
> few slightly different variants.
>
> Any English speaker who goes around pronouncing Prokofiev as if he were a
> Russian is a pretentious twit and should probably, as some used to say
> during the Cold War, move to fucking Moscow.
>
Why so hostile to the idea of trying to say the name correctly?
Jerry Kohl
> In article <0LUVb.17833$F23....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> John Harrington <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >"Jerry Kohl" <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:4028096C...@comcast.net...
> ><snips>
> >> I see that Dr. Matt and John Harrington are at it again,
> >
> >Yeah, kinda like you and Nightingale, except with one one billionth the
> >posts.
> >
> >><snip a whole bunch of useless pseudo scholarly nonsense> though in an
> >English-
> >> speaking context this is probably a subtlety not worth worrying about.
> >
> >In an English speaking context, it is pronounced pruh-KOH-fee-eff, with very
> >few slightly different variants.
> >
> >Any English speaker who goes around pronouncing Prokofiev as if he were a
> >Russian is a pretentious twit and should probably, as some used to say
> >during the Cold War, move to fucking Moscow.
> >
> >
> >J
> >
> >
> >
>
> See, the French have an official academy, and the Americans have...
> this guy.
LOL!
Jerry Kohl
> John Harrington wrote:
> >
> > In an English speaking context, it is pronounced pruh-KOH-fee-eff, with very
> > few slightly different variants.
> >
> > Any English speaker who goes around pronouncing Prokofiev as if he were a
> > Russian is a pretentious twit and should probably, as some used to say
> > during the Cold War, move to fucking Moscow.
> >
>
> Why so hostile to the idea of trying to say the name correctly?
Now that is one of the most intelligent questions I've seen all week.
Jerry Kohl
> er....yeah. I basically just don't want to look like an idiot when I see
> Romeo and Juliet this week, especially since I took 4 years of Russian and
> should know better. But thanks for the great reply! I think I'll go with
> pro - ko - fyeff, and if anyone says anything, I'll get fancy and throw in
> that soft sign stuff.
Unless you reckon you are talking to John Harrington, in which case
you had better adopt his West Virginia pronunciation. You might still
try some signs on him, though ... ;-)
Jerry Kohl
Now that is actually a very interesting question, because Czech invariably
accents the first syllable of words, and Czech speakers are prone to doing
this even with words of foreign derivation. Somehow I imagine they would
in this case retain the Russian stress on the second syllable, but perhaps
Mike Harris can enlighten us?
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
> "Mike Harris" <harr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:2e2a4e89.04020...@posting.google.com...
>>"John Harrington" <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<E6GVb.20577$uM2....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
>>>"Monkeymoo" <monkey...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>news:fVCVb.2821$4I6.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
>>>
>>>>I have looked for this everywhere, including wading through hundreds of
>>>> old usenet archives. It's also not included in the FAQ. Thanks for any
>>>> help.
>
>>>pruh-KOH-fee-eff.
>>
>>pro - ko - fyeff more or less three syllables, not four
>
> I live in the 'States, where the correct American pronunciation holds sway.
Yeah, it's really strange how all they dang furriners can't get the hang
of pronouncing their names in the proper Amurrikan way.
Nightingale
Jerry Kohl wrote:
> Nightingale wrote:
>
>
>>John Harrington wrote:
>>
>>>In an English speaking context, it is pronounced pruh-KOH-fee-eff, with very
>>>few slightly different variants.
>>>
>>>Any English speaker who goes around pronouncing Prokofiev as if he were a
>>>Russian is a pretentious twit and should probably, as some used to say
>>>during the Cold War, move to fucking Moscow.
>>>
>>>
>>Why so hostile to the idea of trying to say the name correctly?
>>
>
> Now that is one of the most intelligent questions I've seen all week.
>
Hopefully the rest of the week will be better.
Jerry Kohl
> John Harrington wrote:
> > "Mike Harris" <harr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:2e2a4e89.04020...@posting.google.com...
> >>"John Harrington" <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:<E6GVb.20577$uM2....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> >>>"Monkeymoo" <monkey...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:fVCVb.2821$4I6.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> >>>
> >>>>I have looked for this everywhere, including wading through hundreds of
> >>>> old usenet archives. It's also not included in the FAQ. Thanks for any
> >>>> help.
> >
> >>>pruh-KOH-fee-eff.
> >>
> >>I live in Prague, the more or less correct "Slavic" pronunciation would be:
> >>pro - ko - fyeff more or less three syllables, not four
> >
> > I live in the 'States, where the correct American pronunciation holds sway.
>
> Yeah, it's really strange how all they dang furriners can't get the hang
> of pronouncing their names in the proper Amurrikan way.
Don't show yourself up, Jaakko. Everbuddy knowse hits pernounced
"pernouncin'". 'Sides, hits "them" dang furriners, an' "thurr" names.
Lurn tuh speek 'Murrikun proper, ur don' speak hit utall!
Jerry Kohl
> Jerry Kohl wrote:
>
> > Nightingale wrote:
> >
> >
> >>John Harrington wrote:
> >>
> >>>In an English speaking context, it is pronounced pruh-KOH-fee-eff, with very
> >>>few slightly different variants.
> >>>
> >>>Any English speaker who goes around pronouncing Prokofiev as if he were a
> >>>Russian is a pretentious twit and should probably, as some used to say
> >>>during the Cold War, move to fucking Moscow.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Why so hostile to the idea of trying to say the name correctly?
> >>
> >
> > Now that is one of the most intelligent questions I've seen all week.
> >
>
> Hopefully the rest of the week will be better.
You really are an optimist, but I do take your point: it's still only
Monday. Oops! Just turned Tuesday. Still ...
Michael Haslam
Another highlight for your daughter when she grows up.
MJHaslam
Mike O'sullivan
> John Harrington wrote:
>>
>> No it isn't.
>
> gotta love the witty repartee.
Reminds me of the Monty Python argument clinic:
Michael Palin: An argument isn't just saying "no it isn't"!
John Cleese: Yes it is.
Michael Palin: No it isn't!
"Is this a five minute argument or the full half-hour"?
John Harrington
news:1g8xmnl.10f9cab988g0N%innat...@btopenworld.com...
Presumably when she grows up she'll be aware of the word.
J
Robert Briggs
> Any English speaker who goes around pronouncing Prokofiev as if he
> were a Russian is a pretentious twit ...
And anyone who goes around describing those who make the effort to do
Prokofiev the courtesy of pronouncing his name more or less as he did as
pretentious twits is what?
John Harrington
news:40292469...@BITphysics.orgBUCKET...
A god among men.
J
Michael Haslam
When do you expect her to become aware of the word? On her 18th
birthday?
MJHaslam
John Harrington
Tell you what, how about you show me you possess a basic sense of decency
and leave my child out of your posts?
J
Dr.Matt
Bravo! A nomination-worthy performance!
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
OK, in that case I'll go with my local pronunciation -- after all, in
Finnish each letter represents one and only one sound, and therefore it
must be the only correct way as compared to that whole unholy mess of
English spelling -- and start calling you Yawn Hurryngetonn.
Peter T. Daniels
Code-switching of the type described above is indeed pretentious
twittery.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Dr.Matt
Jerry Kohl
> John Harrington wrote:
> > "Robert Briggs" <Trebor...@BITphysics.orgBUCKET> wrote in message
> > news:40292469...@BITphysics.orgBUCKET...
> >
> >>John Harrington wrote:
> >>
> >>>Any English speaker who goes around pronouncing Prokofiev as if he
> >>>were a Russian is a pretentious twit ...
> >>
> >>And anyone who goes around describing those who make the effort to do
> >>Prokofiev the courtesy of pronouncing his name more or less as he did as
> >>pretentious twits is what?
> >
> > A god among men.
>
> OK, in that case I'll go with my local pronunciation -- after all, in
> Finnish each letter represents one and only one sound, and therefore it
> must be the only correct way as compared to that whole unholy mess of
> English spelling -- and start calling you Yawn Hurryngetonn.
XSG, Jaakko! I especially like the "Yawn" part!
Nightingale
Dr.Matt wrote:
I don't think that will be covered under the warranty.
Coby Beck
>John Harrington wrote:
>> "Robert Briggs" <Trebor...@BITphysics.orgBUCKET> wrote in message
>> news:40292469...@BITphysics.orgBUCKET...
>>
>>>John Harrington wrote:
>>>
>>>>Any English speaker who goes around pronouncing Prokofiev as if he
>>>>were a Russian is a pretentious twit ...
>>>
>>>And anyone who goes around describing those who make the effort to do
>>>Prokofiev the courtesy of pronouncing his name more or less as he did as
>>>pretentious twits is what?
>>
>> A god among men.
>
>OK, in that case I'll go with my local pronunciation -- after all, in
>Finnish each letter represents one and only one sound, and therefore it
>must be the only correct way as compared to that whole unholy mess of
>English spelling -- and start calling you Yawn Hurryngetonn.
How wonderfully appropriate! We should all figure out the most apropriate
foriegn language versions of our names, now that Yawn's is done.
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ big pond . com")
Michael Haslam
Show me what a basic sense of decency involves in terms of Usenet and
maybe I will.
MJHaslam
Michael Haslam
Dr.Matt
No wonder people say "Gesundheit" to me so often!
Dr.Matt
We wouldn't know of Harrington's daughter had he not waved her
around as an emblem in past posts.
John Harrington
A basic sense of decency involves not dragging two year old girls into the
discussion, especially in a teasing or shaming way. And, by the way,
contrary to Matt's hallucination, I never once "waved around" my daughter as
an "emblem", though I did mention my obligation to protect and provide for
my family, which is only natural since that is the basic obligation of my
life at present.
J
John Harrington
news:CGpWb.1892$Nz2....@news.itd.umich.edu...
<snip>
> We wouldn't know of Harrington's daughter had he not waved her
> around as an emblem in past posts.
PLONK.
J
John Harrington
> Dr.Matt <fie...@rastan.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > In article <cXbWb.18836$F23....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > John Harrington <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >Tell you what, how about you show me you possess a basic sense of
decency
> > >and leave my child out of your posts?
> >
>
> Mine too.
Tell me where I have used your daughter as an attempt to shame you, Michael,
or, indeed, referred to her or your fatherhood in anything but the most
respectful of terms, and I will not only take back my comment, I will
apologize profusely.
J
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
I disagree. There is little excuse for _not_ pronouncing foreign
personal names correctly, and not just because the mispronunciation
could mean something obscene in the language concerned. Quite the
contrary, pronouncing everything as if it were English is pretentious
twittery that assumes that every other language besides English written
in the Latin alphabet can be mangled with impunity.
Let's take this one step further. If you had the name of a Japanese
gentleman written only in Japanese characters, how would you refer to
him? "Artist formerly known as Prince"?
Dr.Matt
There he goes contradicting himself and waving around his family
as an emblem again! LOL!
Dr.Matt
John Harrington <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Michael Haslam" <innat...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>news:1g8zdid.710czc1adrpzpN%innat...@btopenworld.com...
>> Dr.Matt <fie...@rastan.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > In article <cXbWb.18836$F23....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>> > John Harrington <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote:
><snip>
>> > >Tell you what, how about you show me you possess a basic sense of
>decency
>> > >and leave my child out of your posts?
>> >
>> > My Irony meter just overloaded
>>
>> Mine too.
>
>Tell me where I have used your daughter as an attempt to shame you, Michael,
>or, indeed, referred to her or your fatherhood in anything but the most
>respectful of terms, and I will not only take back my comment, I will
>apologize profusely.
>
>
>J
>
>
>
And here come the straw men!
John Harrington
<snip>
> I disagree. There is little excuse for _not_ pronouncing foreign
> personal names correctly, and not just because the mispronunciation
> could mean something obscene in the language concerned.
In the language concerned, the name should be pronounced authentically.
> Quite the
> contrary, pronouncing everything as if it were English is pretentious
> twittery that assumes that every other language besides English written
> in the Latin alphabet can be mangled with impunity.
But the name is not pronounced "as if it were English". If it were, it
would be something like PRO-koh-feev.
Regarding your jest about the pronunciation of my name in your language,
that is not how my name is pronounced there, I'm sure, and I'm equally sure
my name is not pronounced there as it is here, either. I'm content with
that.
We don't say Beograd, we say Belgrade. We don't say Moskva, we say Moscow.
And we don't lap the "r" or whatever when we pronounce the name of the
composer of Lieutenant Kije.
J
Dr.Matt
I notice you didn't say that until after you'd responded to this one twice!
Dr.Matt
Strangely enough, I still see people every day referring to "Jesus this"
and "Jesus that". I don't think any hard and fast rule should apply.
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
> "Jaakko Mäntyjärvi" <jman...@pp.htv.fi> wrote in message
> news:402A5A11...@pp.htv.fi...
> <snip>
>
>>I disagree. There is little excuse for _not_ pronouncing foreign
>>personal names correctly, and not just because the mispronunciation
>>could mean something obscene in the language concerned.
>
> In the language concerned, the name should be pronounced authentically.
...pronouncing foreign names correctly when speaking English. Did I
really have to spell that out for you?
>>Quite the
>>contrary, pronouncing everything as if it were English is pretentious
>>twittery that assumes that every other language besides English written
>>in the Latin alphabet can be mangled with impunity.
>
> But the name is not pronounced "as if it were English". If it were, it
> would be something like PRO-koh-feev.
Or pro-kof-FEE-ev. Or pro-KAHF-five. All valid interpretations in
English, assuming no knowledge of where the name came from. Mangled with
impunity, as I said. To be fair, though, 'Prokofiev' is not a very good
example as the various versions and the original are not that different.
I could cite a number of Finnish NHL players, though...
> Regarding your jest about the pronunciation of my name in your language,
> that is not how my name is pronounced there, I'm sure,
I assure you that, barring the fact that specifying a rolled 'r' is
impossible in English spelling, "Yawn Hurryngetonn" is as accurate a
rendition as I can make of what a Finn who did not know or care about
English pronunciation would utter if shown your name. Feel free to seek
a second opinion.
> and I'm equally sure
> my name is not pronounced there as it is here, either. I'm content with
> that.
Does this mean that it's OK with you if people don't care how your name
should be pronounced?
> We don't say Beograd, we say Belgrade.
Which is a geographical name, not a personal name. Lots of geographical
names have established foreignized forms.
> We don't say Moskva, we say Moscow.
Ditto.
> And we don't lap the "r" or whatever when we pronounce the name of the
> composer of Lieutenant Kije.
Now, you may dismiss this as linguistic pedantry, but since you brought
it up, there is no language that I am aware of where the rolled 'r' and
the fricative 'r' (as in English) form an opposition pair -- i.e. where
changing one to the other would change the meaning of a word. Hence the
two are perceived as variants of the same sound. So are there degrees of
mispronunciation, I hear you ask. Of course there are. I myself, for
instance, have far less of a problem with my surname being pronounced
with a fricative 'r' (though properly pronounced with a rolled 'r') than
I have with being addressed with Michael Jackson's nickname when the
proper pronunciation is closer to YAH-koh.
You may also note that nowhere in this discussion had anyone brought up
the quality of the 'r' in 'Prokofiev' prior to your above mention.
Michael Haslam
Does a basic sense of decency involve suggesting that other posters are
paedophiles?
MJHaslam
Michael Haslam
>
> No wonder people say "Gesundheit" to me so often!
There's been a bit of discussion over the last few days about the 'Flu
epidemic of 1918 that killed 50 MILLION people. I'd never heard of it
before. Apparently people sneezed, their nose started bleeding, and then
they fell down dead. I've been sneezing and my nose has started
bleeding...
Bye,
MJHaslam
Jerry Kohl
> You may also note that nowhere in this discussion had anyone brought up
> the quality of the 'r' in 'Prokofiev' prior to your above mention.
Actually, that's not true. I did bring this up, at the point where it was not
yet clear what degree of precision the OP required.
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
> Jaakko Mäntyjärvi wrote:
>
>>You may also note that nowhere in this discussion had anyone brought up
>>the quality of the 'r' in 'Prokofiev' prior to your above mention.
>
> Actually, that's not true. I did bring this up, at the point where it was not
> yet clear what degree of precision the OP required.
Indeed you did. I stand corrected.
Marcello Penso
bear...@earthlink.net says...
> "Jaakko Mäntyjärvi" <jman...@pp.htv.fi> wrote in message
> news:402A5A11...@pp.htv.fi...
> <snip>
> > I disagree. There is little excuse for _not_ pronouncing foreign
> > personal names correctly, and not just because the mispronunciation
> > could mean something obscene in the language concerned.
>
> In the language concerned, the name should be pronounced authentically.
>
mispronounced, not to mention mispelled (both first and last, often to a
hilarious degree). The most common mispronounciation is 'marsello'
rather than 'marchello'- and people of Hispanic dissent do this even
more frequently, even when, on those rare occasions, I mention my
Italian dissent (In Spanish, the name is pronounced 'marsehloh', though
spelled 'Marcelo'). Sometimes, someone will connect the name ('like the
actor?' (Marcello Mastroianni) 'Yes.') Most of the time, I just let it
go.
The best parts are correcting over the phone:
Mr. Marselo?
Eh... it's actually 'marchello'.
Oh, how do you spell that?
m-a-r, c-e, l-l-o.
Oh, 'marselo'.
Eh no, it's 'marchello'. With two 'l's.
With an 'h'?
No. It's Italian...
FWIW, I took Prokofiev's pronounciation from my dad, who learned about
him from French radio announcers in Africa during the 50s: Proh-KOH-
fyef.
Marcello
Jerry Kohl
>
> FWIW, I took Prokofiev's pronounciation from my dad, who learned about
> him from French radio announcers in Africa during the 50s: Proh-KOH-
> fyef.
Heh. That reminds me of how French radio announcers pronounce J. S.
Bach's name: Jean-Sébastien Bach, with the CH pronounced according
to the usual French practice, as in "charlatan".
Now, for extra credit, how do you pronounce Prokofiev's *first* name?
Marcello Penso
says...
Marcello
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Marcello Penso wrote:
>
> >
> > FWIW, I took Prokofiev's pronounciation from my dad, who learned about
> > him from French radio announcers in Africa during the 50s: Proh-KOH-
> > fyef.
>
> Heh. That reminds me of how French radio announcers pronounce J. S.
> Bach's name: Jean-Sébastien Bach, with the CH pronounced according
> to the usual French practice, as in "charlatan".
Oh, isn't that nice, they called the Boches after their greatest
composer!
> Now, for extra credit, how do you pronounce Prokofiev's *first* name?
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
John Harrington
"Marcello Penso" <mxp...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a949eb61...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
>
> In some cases that maybe clear, in other cases not. My name is often
> mispronounced, not to mention mispelled (both first and last, often to a
> hilarious degree). The most common mispronounciation is 'marsello'
> rather than 'marchello'- and people of Hispanic dissent do this even
> more frequently, even when, on those rare occasions, I mention my
> Italian dissent (In Spanish, the name is pronounced 'marsehloh', though
> spelled 'Marcelo'). Sometimes, someone will connect the name ('like the
> actor?' (Marcello Mastroianni) 'Yes.') Most of the time, I just let it
> go.
It's been my observation that, in American English, among educated speakers,
the name is pronounced mar-CHELL-oh (the surname of the composer, the given
name of the actor), which, it seems to me, is a pretty good approximation of
the authentic pronunciation. In Spanish, the name, is, in fact, pronounced
"mar-SAY-loh".
J
John Harrington
news:402A8B7F...@pp.htv.fi...
>John Harrington wrote:
>> "Jaakko Mntyjrvi" <jman...@pp.htv.fi> wrote in message
>> news:402A5A11...@pp.htv.fi...
<snips>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>I disagree. There is little excuse for _not_ pronouncing foreign
>>>personal names correctly, and not just because the mispronunciation
>>>could mean something obscene in the language concerned.
>>
>> In the language concerned, the name should be pronounced authentically.
>
>...pronouncing foreign names correctly when speaking English. Did I
>really have to spell that out for you?
In fact, foreign names are, as a matter of course, pronounced correctly in
English.
>> But the name is not pronounced "as if it were English". If it were, it
>> would be something like PRO-koh-feev.
>
>Or pro-kof-FEE-ev. Or pro-KAHF-five. All valid interpretations in
>English,
And none correct pronunciations of Prokofiev in English.
>> I'm equally sure my name is not pronounced there as it is here, either.
>> I'm content with that.
>
>Does this mean that it's OK with you if people don't care how your name
>should be pronounced?
It means I'm content with the reality that there are different correct
pronunciations of names in different languages. Special efforts to
introduce authentic pronunciations of foreign names are annoyingly twitty,
and people who try to do so are instantly branded as twits, in my book,
pending extraordinary evidence to the contrary. Given my sad experience
with you, I'm hardly surprised to find you on the side of the twits in this
issue, Jaakko.
<snip>
J
Jerry Kohl
> Jerry Kohl wrote:
> >
> > Marcello Penso wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > FWIW, I took Prokofiev's pronounciation from my dad, who learned about
> > > him from French radio announcers in Africa during the 50s: Proh-KOH-
> > > fyef.
> >
> > Heh. That reminds me of how French radio announcers pronounce J. S.
> > Bach's name: Jean-Sébastien Bach, with the CH pronounced according
> > to the usual French practice, as in "charlatan".
>
> Oh, isn't that nice, they called the Boches after their greatest
> composer!
Well, not quite! (French pronunciation is in fact rapidly sliding toward
confusion of many vowels, especially the nasals, but it hasn't yet gotten
to the point of equating 'o' and 'a' in the more usual contexts.) But I
will say it brought me up short when I first heard this; it took me
a moment or two to "translate".
Jerry Kohl
I expect Yawn will be along shortly to pronounce judgement on your
effort. ;-)
Jerry Kohl
Only without the diphthong, of course.
Marcello Penso
says...
influence, there actually maybe a diphthong. I don't know for sure, but
I know that Spaniards, Cubans, Mexicans and other central Americans, and
Hispanics from the Caribbean other than Cuba, and South Americans all
have variants to their language, with Cubans being famous for very very
fast speech.
Which of course underscores the complexity of name pronounciation in a
country like the US, with so many different immigrant populations.
Marcello
Dr.Matt
I grew up hearing Muricans say "SUR-jee-yay", but lately I hear on the
radio something closer to the Russian, roughly "SAIR-gay".
Dr.Matt
That must be what they mean by "Rolling, rolling, rolling"....
John Harrington
> > It's been my observation that, in American English, among educated
speakers,
> > the name is pronounced mar-CHELL-oh (the surname of the composer, the
given
> > name of the actor), which, it seems to me, is a pretty good
approximation of
> > the authentic pronunciation. In Spanish, the name, is, in fact,
pronounced
> > "mar-SAY-loh".
>
> Only without the diphthong, of course.
>
> In John's neck of the woods, out in LA, with plenty of Mexican
> influence, there actually maybe a diphthong.
This is the second time you've written "may be" as "maybe". You do know the
diff, right?
> I don't know for sure, but
> I know that Spaniards, Cubans, Mexicans and other central Americans, and
> Hispanics from the Caribbean other than Cuba, and South Americans all
> have variants to their language, with Cubans being famous for very very
> fast speech.
I was attempting to render "Marcelo" (Note: no double el) in a way that
approximated, for English speakers, the Spanish pronunciation. There is no
dipthong in the Spanish pronunciation, although one was required to render
it in English.
True, I'm more familiar with Mexican Spanish.
<snip>
J
DB
"Jerry Kohl" <jerom...@comcast.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:402AD8DD...@comcast.net...
> Marcello Penso wrote:
>
> >
> > FWIW, I took Prokofiev's pronounciation from my dad, who learned about
> > him from French radio announcers in Africa during the 50s: Proh-KOH-
> > fyef.
>
> Heh. That reminds me of how French radio announcers pronounce J. S.
> Bach's name: Jean-Sébastien Bach, with the CH pronounced according
> to the usual French practice, as in "charlatan".
Nonsense. This is not true at all.
The traditional way to pronounce the name of BACH in French is BAK, the
sound CH=K being not that of "charlatan" but, for instance, that of "chaos"
or "Christ". This is also consistent with the traditional French way of
pronouncing all the finals -ACH (such finals not occurring naturally in
genuine French words), for example, the person name Rodenbach (the Belgian
writer after whom the opera Die tote Stadt of Zemlinsky was written), the
famous German painter Cranach, or the French town Forbach in the Eastern
part of France.
However, radio announcers pronounce Bach more and more the German way, at
least on the classical channels.
John Harrington
"DB" <gfe...@oppt.gs> wrote in message
news:c0g43v$ljp$1...@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr...
They do however say "Jean-Sébastien"? In English we used to say "John
Sebastian Bach" but then somehow started saying Johann.
J
Dr.Matt
I've almost never heard anybody say anything other than "YOE-HAHN".
DB
"Dr.Matt" :
> >> > Heh. That reminds me of how French radio announcers pronounce J. S.
> >> > Bach's name: Jean-Sébastien Bach, with the CH pronounced according
> >> > to the usual French practice, as in "charlatan".
> >>
> >>
> >> Nonsense. This is not true at all.
> >>
> >> The traditional way to pronounce the name of BACH in French is BAK, the
> >> sound CH=K being not that of "charlatan" but, for instance, that of
> >"chaos"
> >> or "Christ". This is also consistent with the traditional French way of
> >> pronouncing all the finals -ACH (such finals not occurring naturally in
> >> genuine French words), for example, the person name Rodenbach (the
Belgian
> >> writer after whom the opera Die tote Stadt of Zemlinsky was written),
the
> >> famous German painter Cranach, or the French town Forbach in the
Eastern
> >> part of France.
> >
> >They do however say "Jean-Sébastien"?
Yes, whenever we pronounce "bak". When radio announcers or anyone else
pronounce "Bach" in the German way, they usually also say
"Johann-Sebastian".
Pronunciation of foreign proper names is a permanent subject of dispute on
the newsgroups concerned with French language since there are two opposite
trends ; either keeping the traditional pronunciation, especially for names
which have been known for ages (and that traditional pronunciation may be
rather far from the "authentic" one) or adopting the original pronunciation
(whenever compatible with our delicate throats !) which tends to be the rule
because of proggress in communications and knowlegde of other people and
languages.
John Harrington
I don't know. I never suggested that.
J
Marcello Penso
bear...@earthlink.net says...
> "Marcello Penso" <mxp...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1a9543cb3...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article <402B2930...@comcast.net>, jerom...@comcast.net
> says...
> > John Harrington wrote:
> <snip>
> > > It's been my observation that, in American English, among educated
> speakers,
> > > the name is pronounced mar-CHELL-oh (the surname of the composer, the
> given
> > > name of the actor), which, it seems to me, is a pretty good
> approximation of
> > > the authentic pronunciation. In Spanish, the name, is, in fact,
> pronounced
> > > "mar-SAY-loh".
> >
> > Only without the diphthong, of course.
> >
> > In John's neck of the woods, out in LA, with plenty of Mexican
> > influence, there actually maybe a diphthong.
>
> This is the second time you've written "may be" as "maybe". You do know the
> diff, right?
Yes, and I also wrote 'dissent' instead of 'descent' (twice) but my
proofreedibf is notall that grate.
MarSEHlohh
Gary Goldberg
harr...@yahoo.com (Mike Harris) wrote:
> "John Harrington" <bear...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<E6GVb.20577$uM2....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> > "Monkeymoo" <monkey...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:fVCVb.2821$4I6.5...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> > > I have looked for this everywhere, including wading through hundreds of
> > old
> > > usenet archives. It's also not included in the FAQ. Thanks for any help.
> >
> > pruh-KOH-fee-eff.
> >
> >
> > J
>
> I live in Prague, the more or less correct "Slavic" pronunciation would be:
>
> pro - ko - fyeff more or less three syllables, not four
>
> Mike Harris
That's correct. I'm a translator of Russian.
The name has 3 syllables, not 4 (and, BTW, Scriabin
has 2, not 3, because it's prounounced like SKRYA-bin).
I'd transliterate Prokofiev as Pruh-KAWF-yef
--
Illiterate? Write for free help!
(Remove "X" from address to reply)
ARTIFICIAL intelligence? What we need is the real thing!!!
Nightingale
John Harrington wrote:
> innat...@btopenworld.com (Michael Haslam) wrote in message news:<1g90cpk.1p4cvi1sm0su7N%innat...@btopenworld.com>...
>>
>>Does a basic sense of decency involve suggesting that other posters are
>>paedophiles?
>>
>
> I don't know. I never suggested that.
>
So what was this little fight about?
What were you suggesting when you asked Matt "How does your criminal
sexual psychopathy dig me in deeper?"
--
The better the voyce is, the meeter it is to honour and
serve God there-with: and the voyce of man is chiefely
to be imployed to that ende.
Omnis spiritus laudet Dominum.
-William Byrd
Coby Beck
"Nightingale" <si...@music.ca> wrote in message
news:402C5E4...@music.ca...
>
>
> John Harrington wrote:
>
> > innat...@btopenworld.com (Michael Haslam) wrote in message
news:<1g90cpk.1p4cvi1sm0su7N%innat...@btopenworld.com>...
> >>
> >>Does a basic sense of decency involve suggesting that other posters are
> >>paedophiles?
> >>
> >
> > I don't know. I never suggested that.
> >
>
>
> So what was this little fight about?
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1682399347d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=b97c7d0a.0401231454.68c98796%40posting.google.com&rnum=40
>
> What were you suggesting when you asked Matt "How does your criminal
> sexual psychopathy dig me in deeper?"
John is Tholen. He will deny every reasonable interpretation of his own
words while constantly evading requests to clarify what he really meant.
Eventually any opposition to his excuse-making will tire and quit and then
John will place the thread on his list of "I kicked ass" threads.
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ big pond . com")
Dr.Matt
>
>
>John Harrington wrote:
>
>> innat...@btopenworld.com (Michael Haslam) wrote in message
>news:<1g90cpk.1p4cvi1sm0su7N%innat...@btopenworld.com>...
>>>
>>>Does a basic sense of decency involve suggesting that other posters are
>>>paedophiles?
>>>
>>
>> I don't know. I never suggested that.
>>
>
>
>So what was this little fight about?
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1682399347d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=b97c7d0a.0401231454.68c98796%40posting.google.com&rnum=40
>
>What were you suggesting when you asked Matt "How does your criminal
>sexual psychopathy dig me in deeper?"
>
Forget it. Any time he's caught lying, he'll claim one or another
of his lies to be satire and accuse the rest of the world of not
having an adequate sense of humor.
John Harrington
>
> > innat...@btopenworld.com (Michael Haslam) wrote in message
news:<1g90cpk.1p4cvi1sm0su7N%innat...@btopenworld.com>...
> >>
> >>Does a basic sense of decency involve suggesting that other posters are
> >>paedophiles?
> >>
> >
> > I don't know. I never suggested that.
>
>
> So what was this little fight about?
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1682399347d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=b97c7d0a.0401231454.68c98796%40posting.google.com&rnum=40
>
> What were you suggesting when you asked Matt "How does your criminal
> sexual psychopathy dig me in deeper?"
It wasn't a suggestion, as I am not the one who created the pedophile
newsgroups with matt's name in them.
Also, as distinct from a two year old girl, matt fields can defend himself.
John
Michael Haslam
So that's all right, then. You can post any old libellous crap about
anyone so long as they're over 18. Is that part of your definition of "a
basic sense of decency"? There's a nice job for you in the gutter press.
MJHaslam
Nightingale
> In article <402C5E4...@music.ca>, Nightingale <si...@music.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>>John Harrington wrote:
>>
>>
>>>innat...@btopenworld.com (Michael Haslam) wrote in message
>>
>>news:<1g90cpk.1p4cvi1sm0su7N%innat...@btopenworld.com>...
>>
>>>>Does a basic sense of decency involve suggesting that other posters are
>>>>paedophiles?
>>>>
>>>
>>>I don't know. I never suggested that.
>>>
>>
>>
>>So what was this little fight about?
>>
>>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1682399347d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=b97c7d0a.0401231454.68c98796%40posting.google.com&rnum=40
>>
>>What were you suggesting when you asked Matt "How does your criminal
>>sexual psychopathy dig me in deeper?"
>>
>
>
> Forget it. Any time he's caught lying, he'll claim one or another
> of his lies to be satire and accuse the rest of the world of not
> having an adequate sense of humor.
>
Funny accusation coming from him.
--
Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.
Nightingale
There are multiple people name Matthew Fields. You suggested that the
groups had anything to do with the one who posts here.
>
> Also, as distinct from a two year old girl, matt fields can defend himself.
>
True.
>
> John
John Harrington
<snip>
> Funny accusation coming from him.
Especially since I've never made the accusation, not once, in response to my
allegedly being caught in a "lie".
J
Dr.Matt
Nah, see, he'll try to wiggle out on ambiguity and satire, whichever
he thinks serves his purposes at the moment.
Mad Dan
>
> I've almost never heard anybody say anything other than "YOE-HAHN".
Wow! How boring - how on earth do you have conversations?
Dr.Matt
YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN?
YOE-HAHN, YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN: YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN.
YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN ?
Nightingale
> In article <badf481.04021...@posting.google.com>,
> Mad Dan <mad...@keepitloud.com> wrote:
>
>>fie...@rastan.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (Dr.Matt) wrote in message
>>news:<tINWb.1964$Nz2....@news.itd.umich.edu>...
>>
>>>I've almost never heard anybody say anything other than "YOE-HAHN".
>>
>>
>>Wow! How boring - how on earth do you have conversations?
>
>
>
> YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN?
> YOE-HAHN, YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN: YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN.
>
> YOE-HAHN YOE-HAHN ?
>
YOE-HAHN !!