Agnostic composers; religious music
Frank Christiny
Friends,
As an agnostic I have always being struck by the beauty and the
power of the artistic creations by mystics and religious artists
inspired by their beliefs and visions of whatever it is they
perceive with their minds. Witness the great cathedrals of Europe
and the temples of the East; many of the great paintings were
inspired by religious feelings (Dali, Miguel Angel, etc.). In
music we observe very much the same phenomenon, above all, in the
music of the Renaissance and Barroque composers (Lully, Bach,
Vivaldi). So when I discovered in a concert a few months ago that
an avowed agnostic such Ralph Vaughan Williams had composed a
beautiful Mass, the Mass in G minor, I determined to find more
examples of this kind of "contradiction". To my surprise I
recently discovered that Johannes Brahms was an avowed agnostic to
the great preocupation of his friends who distressed about his
"future" advised him earnestly to recognize his "error" before it
was too late (!). To Brahms' agnosticism we owe, amazingly enough,
the hauntingly beautiful German Requiem (Opus 45). So far, these
are the only examples I have found on this peculiar quest.
Does anyone know anymore works by atheist, agnostic or
free-thinker composers who were inspired by religious themes? Or
the other way around, does anyone know of works by mystics or
religious people who based their works on irreligious subjects?
On this latter category I can cite the work by Alan Hovhannes,
the great mystical american composer, who based his Opus 282 on
twelve of the poems by the great persian poet of the XI century,
the libertine and joyful Omar Khayyam, one of my favorite
philosophers of life! Khayyam was not only a poet but a scientist
as well and perhaps this could account for his godless view of the
world which brought him no end of trouble given the atmosphere of
intolerance among the islamic society in which he had to live.
So, Havhannes the mystic meets Khayyam the hedonist unbeliever
through their love of nature! This to me is an example of a
religious author taking a decidedly non-religious subject as its
inspiration.
So far we have then:
Composer: Work:
Johannes Brahms (agnostic) German Requiem (lutheran)
Ralph Vaugham Williams (agnostic) Mass in G minor (anglican)
Alan Hovhannes (mystic) Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam (atheist)
(Use fixed width to see above table properly).
One example from each composer I think is enough. Any others?
Cheers
Frank Christiny fchri...@halnet.com
Houston, Texas, USA http://hermes.cs.uh.edu/~fchris/
Mike Painter
In article <3474E245...@pdq.net>, Frank Christiny <fch...@pdq.net> wrote:
[SNIP interesting thoughts regarding agnostics composing religious works]
> So far we have then:
>
> Composer: Work:
> Johannes Brahms (agnostic) German Requiem (lutheran)
> Ralph Vaugham Williams (agnostic) Mass in G minor (anglican)
> Alan Hovhannes (mystic) Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam (atheist)
>
> (Use fixed width to see above table properly).
>
> One example from each composer I think is enough. Any others?
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Frank Christiny fchri...@halnet.com
> Houston, Texas, USA http://hermes.cs.uh.edu/~fchris/
This is an interesting thread.
I am wondering why you call the Brahms "German Requiem" "Lutheran." The
text was assembled by Brahms himself from scriptural sources in both the
Old and New Testaments. However, they are not liturgical texts (meaning
that they are not settings of formal church service prayers, like the
Mozart or Verdi requiems). There is nothing specifically Lutheran about
it.
Being from Hamburg, Germany originally, Brahms may have had a Lutheran
upbringing. However, Vienna, where he eventually settled was mostly Roman
Catholic. It would be more accurate to call the work simply "Christian."
The word "German" refers only to the language, and Brahms himself is
quoted as saying that he would gladly have done without that adjective and
called it "A Human Requiem."
On to another acomposer.
Many people who knew Franz Schubert questioned the strength of his
religious beliefs. A friend of his sent him a concert invitation which
began:"Credo in unum Deum," and then continued: "You do not, I know, but
you will believe that Tietze is going to sing your "Nachthelle" at the
music club this evening."
Schubert himself said, referring to his Lied "Ave Maria:" "People have
been greatly *surprised* at my piety, which I expressed in a hymn to the
Holy Virgin and which, it seems, touches all hearts and arouses feelings
of devotion. I believe this is because my devotion is never forced and I
only compose hymns or prayers when I am *involuntarily* overcome by such a
feeling; but when this happens it is usually true and proper devotion."
(Emphasis added.)
Schubert completed 6 Masses, began several others and composed other
liturgical works, as well as numerous other sacred works. It is
interesting to note that whenever he composed the "Credo" in his Masses,
he never set the words "And I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic
church." ("Catholic" here is written with a lower case "c" and means
"universal," not "Roman Catholic.") This could hardly have been an
oversight, having occurred 6 times. So it is clear that he certainly did
not identify himself with the institutional church.
Mike Painter
Constantin Marcou
Simon Roberts wrote:
> The Melsons (ame...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
> : In addition to interjecting that I have read that John Rutter is an
> : agnostic, let me pose some questions about previous posts on this
> : subject: 1) Is Mr. Rosenthal equating anti-religious with
> : pro-humanist? Christ was one of the greatest of all humanists IMHO. 2)
> : Why would someone pro-science (Khayyam) necessarily be anti-religious?
> : Please don't equate fundamentalism with religious faith. And 3) why is
> : it that unusual that an agnostic could write moving sacred music? God
> : works through a wide variety of people.
> : Mark Melson
>
> There is another explanation for (3) than the one you suggest; one need no
> more be a Catholic to write a mass than one needs to be Egyptian to write
> Aida, an ancient Greek to write Elektra, a sadist to write music
> to come from the mouth of a singer portraying a sadist, etc., etc.
>
> Simon
Indeed. No one has mentioned my favorite "contradiction": Bach (a confirmed
and convinced Lutheran) writing what many consider to be the greatest Catholic
Mass (in b minor).
--
Best regards,
Con
*****************************************************************
"Mozart is too easy for beginners and too difficult for artists."
- Artur Schnabel
*****************************************************************
Please remove * from address to reply.
Colin Rosenthal
On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:22:14 -0600,
Frank Christiny <fch...@pdq.net> wrote:
>
> So far we have then:
>
>Composer: Work:
>Johannes Brahms (agnostic) German Requiem (lutheran)
>Ralph Vaugham Williams (agnostic) Mass in G minor (anglican)
>Alan Hovhannes (mystic) Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam (atheist)
Can someone confirm -
Verdi (agnostic) Requiem
Does anyone know about Benjamin Britten?
As a non-god-botherer myself, I'd love to hear of any anti-religious
or pro-humanist works which are comparable to the great works on
the other side. In rock'n'roll they say the Devil has all the best
tunes, but it doesn't seem to be true in the classical world.
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
Robert John Guttke
>..it will be interesting to see if "agnostic" composers have the same
>posting appeal as homosexual ones......
Only if they sleep with priests......
VAughan WIlliams' Mass is a beautiful piece of music for some one who
didn't believe in the strict doctrine. Gerald Finzi was the same.
Born to Jewish parents he became enamored of the Anglican way, but did
not believe in any strict following- but wrote some glorious music in
the name of a God.
The Melsons
On 21 Nov 1997 01:27:41 GMT, rose...@asp.hao.ucar.edu (Colin
Rosenthal) wrote:
In addition to interjecting that I have read that John Rutter is an
jlar...@ix.netcom.com
>Friends,
> So far we have then:
>
>Composer: Work:
>Johannes Brahms (agnostic) German Requiem (lutheran)
>Ralph Vaugham Williams (agnostic) Mass in G minor (anglican)
>Alan Hovhannes (mystic) Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam (atheist)
>
> (Use fixed width to see above table properly).
>
> One example from each composer I think is enough. Any others?
>
>
A better examaple for Brahms might be the Four Serious Songs, which
are settings of verses from Revelations.
And, a better example for Vaughn Williams could be the Fantasia on a
Theme by Thomas Tallis: the theme is one of the cornerstones of
Anglican hymnody.
David M. Cook
On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:22:14 -0600, Frank Christiny <fch...@pdq.net> wrote:
> Does anyone know anymore works by atheist, agnostic or
> free-thinker composers who were inspired by religious themes? Or
> the other way around, does anyone know of works by mystics or
> religious people who based their works on irreligious subjects?
Janacek's Glagolithic Mass.
Dave Cook
Peter Dorman
Wasn't it Adorno's thesis that the magnificent but disjointed quality of
the Missa Solemnis was due to Beethoven's own agnosticism? (It's been
decades since I read this...)
Peter Dorman
Steve Wolk
Was Janacek a Glagolith?
Steve Wolk
Diane Wilson
I don't know about the strength of his religious convictions, but
Leonard Bernstein (Jewish) did write a Mass.
--
Diane Wilson | "Oh, what a beautiful baby! Is it a
anon-...@anon.twwells.com | boy or a girl?"
http://www.lava.net/~dewilson/ |
http://www.acm.org/chapters/trichi/ | "I don't know; it hasn't told us yet."
Diane Wilson
In article <3474DA...@erols.com>, "G. Brown" <sibe...@erols.com> writes:
|> Frank Christiny wrote:
|> ..it will be interesting to see if "agnostic" composers have the same
|> posting appeal as homosexual ones......
This wasn't even an issue in this thread until YOU brought it up.
This is your obsession. Deal with it, OK?
Lani Spahr
Robert John Guttke wrote:
> VAughan WIlliams' Mass is a beautiful piece of music for some one who
> didn't believe in the strict doctrine.
And let's not forget the enormous amount of work RVW did on the hymnal
of the Church of England. You can hardly open the book without finding
one of his harmonisations.
--
Cheers,
Lani Spahr
Colin Rosenthal
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 03:51:54 GMT,
The Melsons <ame...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>On 21 Nov 1997 01:27:41 GMT, rose...@asp.hao.ucar.edu (Colin
>Rosenthal) wrote:
>>Can someone confirm -
>>Verdi (agnostic) Requiem
>>
>>Does anyone know about Benjamin Britten?
>>
>>As a non-god-botherer myself, I'd love to hear of any anti-religious
>>or pro-humanist works which are comparable to the great works on
>>the other side. In rock'n'roll they say the Devil has all the best
>>tunes, but it doesn't seem to be true in the classical world.
>
>In addition to interjecting that I have read that John Rutter is an
>agnostic, let me pose some questions about previous posts on this
>subject: 1) Is Mr. Rosenthal equating anti-religious with
>pro-humanist? Christ was one of the greatest of all humanists IMHO. 2)
>Why would someone pro-science (Khayyam) necessarily be anti-religious?
>Please don't equate fundamentalism with religious faith. And 3) why is
>it that unusual that an agnostic could write moving sacred music? God
>works through a wide variety of people.
Doubtless I'm using a different definition of "humanist" from yours. I
never mentioned science at all so I don't understand your point (2). As
for point (3), again I never suggested it was unusual. My question was
not "Why do agnostics write good religious music?" but "Have any written
good agnostic music?". Apart from that, I have nothing further to say on
the subject which would not be off-topic on this newsgroup, except:
Bernstein (Jewish/non-religious?) Requiem
John Soward Bayne
Hymns too: "Hail thee, festival day" (Salve fiesta dies) and
"For all the saints" (Sine nomine) are great fun to sing.
Others are "Come down o love divine" (Down ampney) and Forest
Green (alt. tune for "O little town of Bethlehem"). This last
may not be an original RVW melody, but just a setting of an
English folk tune.
Was Elgar Christian? I know he wrote at least an Ave Verum
Corpus.
JSBayne
Atlanta
I. Neill Reid
In article <34752d15...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, jlar...@ix.netcom.com writes... [... snip ...]
>>
>> So far we have then:
>>
>>Composer: Work:
>>Johannes Brahms (agnostic) German Requiem (lutheran)
>>Ralph Vaugham Williams (agnostic) Mass in G minor (anglican)
>>Alan Hovhannes (mystic) Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam (atheist)
>>
>> (Use fixed width to see above table properly).
>>
>> One example from each composer I think is enough. Any others?
>>
>>
>A better examaple for Brahms might be the Four Serious Songs, which
>are settings of verses from Revelations.
>
>And, a better example for Vaughn Williams could be the Fantasia on a
>Theme by Thomas Tallis: the theme is one of the cornerstones of
>Anglican hymnody.
Sorry, I really cannot see how one could have a _better_ example of
religious music than a setting of the mass - particularly when the
supposed "better" example is a textless, music-only work. A more
valid example to add to the G minor mass would be Vaughan William's
work on the Anglican hymnary.
Adding another composer, Gerald Finzi, an agnostic, set various
religious texts, notably the Magnificat and In Terra Pax.
Neill Reid - i...@dowland.caltech.edu
Christopher Michael Delamarter
another good vaughan williams piece is "hodie: a christmas cantata." it's
made up primarily of biblical passages about the birth of christ and
poems about the same. in the middle of the work, however, RVW includes a
setting of the poem "the oxen" (i don't remember who by) which is
basically an agnostic poem saying how wonderful all of this would be *if
it's true*. RVW's agnosticism shines through even in the midst of a
celebration of christmas. it's a great piece, by the way, and there
aren't too many recordings of it. i have the london symphony recording
and it's wonderful with the exception of the soprano soloist. does anyone
know of any other recordings on cd? mine got scratched horribly and i'd
like to get another copy.
thanks,
chris
Lani Spahr
John Soward Bayne wrote:
>
> Was Elgar Christian? I know he wrote at least an Ave Verum
> Corpus.
Yes, he was Catholic and he thought it was a liability. Not all of his
religious output was meant strictly for the Catholic church, though.
There are 2 Ave Verum Corpus, 2 Ave Maris Stella,
Te deum and Benedictus in F, Light of Life (Lux Christi), The Apostels,
The Kingdom, Dream of Gerontius, A Christmas Greeting, Ecce sacerdos
magnus, Give unto the Lord, Great is the Lord, Grete Malverne on a Rock
(Lo, Christ the Lord is Born), Hear the Children gentle Jesus, I sing
the Birth, The King's way, O hearken thou, 3 O salutaris hostia, Psalm
67, Tantum Ergo.
Aren't you glad you asked?
--
Cheers,
Lani Spahr
Steve Wolk
G. Brown wrote:
>
> Diane Wilson wrote:
> >
> > In article <3474DA...@erols.com>, "G. Brown" <sibe...@erols.com> writes:
> > |> Frank Christiny wrote:
> >
> > |> ..it will be interesting to see if "agnostic" composers have the same
> > |> posting appeal as homosexual ones......
> >
> > This wasn't even an issue in this thread until YOU brought it up.
> >
> > This is your obsession. Deal with it, OK?
> > --
> > Diane Wilson
> curiosity.....so far the agnostics are holding there own n'est-ce pas?
> cheers,gb
I'm getting a bad feeling about this thread.
Steve Wolk
fiddleaway
Frank Christiny wrote
> As an agnostic I have always being struck by the beauty and the
> power of the artistic creations by mystics and religious artists
> inspired by their beliefs and visions of whatever it is they
> [snip]
> ...So when I discovered in a concert a few months ago that
> an avowed agnostic such Ralph Vaughan Williams had composed a
> beautiful Mass, the Mass in G minor, I determined to find more
> examples of this kind of "contradiction". To my surprise I
Frank,
(Can't help but note the dripping irony in your last name...)
As a believer I am not surprised at all that the power and beauty of God
has been revealed to us through the works of both believers and skeptics
(and I presume even avowed and determined atheists!). God smiles knowingly
as you eagerly consume huge helpings of her luscious humble pie: her little
joke!
How amusing and ironic that you and the agnostic composers you have noted
are uplifted by the hand of the almighty, supplying you with more than an
ample supply of the proof you seek. (But that's OK, I know you need more
concrete, rational assurances).
In spite of the doubt in our conscious minds, we are still carried upward
by the elements of the devine that are within us.
Lucky us!
Simon Roberts
Peter Dorman (dor...@pilot.msu.edu) wrote:
: Wasn't it Adorno's thesis that the magnificent but disjointed quality of
: the Missa Solemnis was due to Beethoven's own agnosticism? (It's been
: decades since I read this...)
I haven't a clue; but when I hear a good performance of it it doesn't
sound disjointed to me....
Simon
Steve Hehr
Frank Christiny <fch...@pdq.net> wrote:
>Friends,
>
> As an agnostic I have always being struck by the beauty and the
> power of the artistic creations by mystics and religious artists
> inspired by their beliefs and visions of whatever it is they
> perceive with their minds. Witness the great cathedrals of Europe
> and the temples of the East; many of the great paintings were
> inspired by religious feelings (Dali, Miguel Angel, etc.). In
> music we observe very much the same phenomenon, above all, in the
> music of the Renaissance and Barroque composers (Lully, Bach,
> Vivaldi). So when I discovered in a concert a few months ago that
> an avowed agnostic such Ralph Vaughan Williams had composed a
> beautiful Mass, the Mass in G minor, I determined to find more
> examples of this kind of "contradiction". To my surprise I
> recently discovered that Johannes Brahms was an avowed agnostic to
> the great preocupation of his friends who distressed about his
> "future" advised him earnestly to recognize his "error" before it
> was too late (!). To Brahms' agnosticism we owe, amazingly enough,
> the hauntingly beautiful German Requiem (Opus 45). So far, these
> are the only examples I have found on this peculiar quest.
>
> Does anyone know anymore works by atheist, agnostic or
> free-thinker composers who were inspired by religious themes? Or
> the other way around, does anyone know of works by mystics or
> religious people who based their works on irreligious subjects?
>
> On this latter category I can cite the work by Alan Hovhannes,
> the great mystical american composer, who based his Opus 282 on
> twelve of the poems by the great persian poet of the XI century,
> the libertine and joyful Omar Khayyam, one of my favorite
> philosophers of life! Khayyam was not only a poet but a scientist
> as well and perhaps this could account for his godless view of the
> world which brought him no end of trouble given the atmosphere of
> intolerance among the islamic society in which he had to live.
> So, Havhannes the mystic meets Khayyam the hedonist unbeliever
> through their love of nature! This to me is an example of a
> religious author taking a decidedly non-religious subject as its
> inspiration.
>
> So far we have then:
>
>Composer: Work:
>Johannes Brahms (agnostic) German Requiem (lutheran)
>Ralph Vaugham Williams (agnostic) Mass in G minor (anglican)
>Alan Hovhannes (mystic) Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam (atheist)
>
> (Use fixed width to see above table properly).
>
> One example from each composer I think is enough. Any others?
>
>Cheers
>
>
>Frank Christiny fchri...@halnet.com
>Houston, Texas, USA http://hermes.cs.uh.edu/~fchris/
>
>
In his liner notes for the Colin Davis recording of the Berlioz "Te
Deum", David Cairns states "We do no know exactly what motives led
Berlioz, a confirmed agnostic, to write the work."
David M. Cook
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:58:34 -0500, G. Brown <sibe...@erols.com> wrote:
>Ms. Wilson...please calm down...I asked only out of intellectual
>curiosity.....so far the agnostics are holding there own n'est-ce pas?
What disingenuous bullshit. You've posted the same kind of crap in
response to simple requests for recommendations. You're simply trolling.
Dave Cook
Keith Benson
Frank Christiny <fch...@pdq.net> wrote in article
<3474E245...@pdq.net>...
> Friends,
>
snip
>
> Does anyone know anymore works by atheist, agnostic or
> free-thinker composers who were inspired by religious themes? Or
> the other way around, does anyone know of works by mystics or
> religious people who based their works on irreligious subjects?
>
I think - but don't know - that Delius and Janacek, who both wrote masses,
were non-religious.
Cheryl
Frank Christiny wrote:
>
> Friends,
>
> As an agnostic I have always being struck by the beauty and the
> power of the artistic creations by mystics and religious artists
> inspired by their beliefs and visions of whatever it is they
> perceive with their minds.
> So far we have then:
>
> Composer: Work:
> Johannes Brahms (agnostic) German Requiem (lutheran)
> Ralph Vaugham Williams (agnostic) Mass in G minor (anglican)
> Alan Hovhannes (mystic) Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam (atheist)
>
>
> Frank Christiny fchri...@halnet.com
> Houston, Texas, USA http://hermes.cs.uh.edu/~fchris/
Vaughan William's "Dona Nobis Pacem" is another agnostic/religious
masterpiece by Charles Darwin's nephew. If is particularly significant
in that it was composed in 1935 during the rise of facism and nazism.
Matthew H. Fields
In article <01bcf6d5$1e616ea0$2d42a7cf@micron>,
fiddleaway <wha...@spam.com> wrote:
>Frank Christiny wrote
>> As an agnostic I have always being struck by the beauty and the
>> power of the artistic creations by mystics and religious artists
>> inspired by their beliefs and visions of whatever it is they
>> [snip]
>> ...So when I discovered in a concert a few months ago that
>> an avowed agnostic such Ralph Vaughan Williams had composed a
>> beautiful Mass, the Mass in G minor, I determined to find more
>> examples of this kind of "contradiction". To my surprise I
>
>Frank,
>
>(Can't help but note the dripping irony in your last name...)
>
>As a believer I am not surprised at all that the power and beauty of God
>has been revealed to us through the works of both believers and skeptics
>(and I presume even avowed and determined atheists!). God smiles knowingly
>as you eagerly consume huge helpings of her luscious humble pie: her little
>joke!
And you should see how Paul Bunyan winks with irony at all the wonderful
artwork developed around him!
"God must have known what he was doing when he made you a freethinker."
---George Bernard Shaw poking fun at circular reasoning in Major Barbara
--
Matt Fields, A.Mus.D. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields
My Java toy, JARS Top 1%: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields/TTTB
Diane Wilson
In article <34763C...@erols.com>, sibe...@erols.com says...
> Diane Wilson wrote:
> >
> > In article <3474DA...@erols.com>, "G. Brown" <sibe...@erols.com> writes:
> > |> Frank Christiny wrote:
> >
> > |> ..it will be interesting to see if "agnostic" composers have the same
> > |> posting appeal as homosexual ones......
> >
> > This wasn't even an issue in this thread until YOU brought it up.
> >
> > This is your obsession. Deal with it, OK?
> > --
> > Diane Wilson
> curiosity
Bullshit. You brought it up, and not out of intellectual curiosity.
<*plonk*>
--
Diane Wilson |
anon-...@anon.twwells.com | What we need is an optimistic
http://www.lava.net/~dewilson/ | Shostakovich.
http://www.lava.net/~dewilson/asd/ | --Shostakovich, quoting
http://www.acm.org/chapters/trichi/ | official sources
Constantin Marcou
Jeff Smithpeters wrote:
> Mahler was NOT an agnostic. He definitely believed in God, maybe not
> the one Falwell believes in, but he believed nonetheless.
>
> Read some biography before you post lies on the newsgroup, please.
>
Hey, that's pretty cheeky, considering you're responding to the President
of the Mahler Society AND the close associate/spokesperson/intermediary
for this group to Henri Louis de la Grange! (If you're so interested in
biography, perhaps the name will ring a bell....)
AVIKG
MAHLER's second and eighth.
avik-gms
Jeff Smithpeters
Mahler was NOT an agnostic. He definitely believed in God, maybe not
the one Falwell believes in, but he believed nonetheless.
Read some biography before you post lies on the newsgroup, please.
big...@msn.com
In article <01bcf71d$51a659e0$e39425ca@keithben>,
Also Vaughan Williams and Holst were free thinker types who wrote
religious based music : Vaughan Williams wrote a Mass, and Holst wrote a
piece called, "Hymn of Jesus". They also wrote other works... Vaughan
Williams put Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress" in operatic form.
"There is no reason why an athiest could not write a good Mass." Ralph
Vaughan Williams, 1921
Not being athiest myself, though by no means into organized religion, in
listening to these works, one is impressed that these fellows were
inspired by SOMETHING!
E Schaffer
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
fiddleaway
Matthew H. Fields wrote
> fiddleaway wrote...
> >As a believer I am not surprised at all that the power and beauty of God
> >has been revealed to us through the works of both believers and skeptics
> >(and I presume even avowed and determined atheists!). God smiles
knowingly
> >as you eagerly consume huge helpings of her luscious humble pie: her
little
> >joke!
>
> And you should see how Paul Bunyan winks with irony at all the wonderful
> artwork developed around him!
>
>
> "God must have known what he was doing when he made you a freethinker."
> ---George Bernard Shaw poking fun at circular reasoning in Major Barbara
Well, in the spirit of circular reasoning then need I state the obvious?
PB is God.
Duh?
:-)
--
-dnc-
AVIKG
In article <3477E9...@bellsouth.net>, Jeff Smithpeters
<jef...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>Mahler was NOT an agnostic. He definitely believed in God, maybe not
the one
>Falwell believes in, but he believed nonetheless.
says who?
MAHLER was an orthodox agnostic or a jew without haleluyas. any of his
religious diplays were a part of a ticket to a better job. the second and
eighth are the best examples of it.
avik-gms
AVIKG
In article <347784D5...@earthlink.net>, Constantin Marcou
<conm...@earthlink.net> writes:
>Hey, that's pretty cheeky, considering you're responding to the President
of
>the Mahler Society AND the close associate/spokesperson/intermediary
for this
>group to Henri Louis de la Grange! (If you're so interested in
biography,
>perhaps the name will ring a bell....)
--
Best regards,
Con
now, now Con, let's not turn this into a hollow ground. each of us is entitled
to an opinion which at times may vary from that of others.
as our biblical elders used to say:"le'kol echad yesh et shelo".
avik-gms
Frank Christiny
Friends,
Your help has been overwhelming thus far! Honestly, I didn't
expect to receive so much information in such a short time period.
Thanks to all who have participated in good faith (pun intended!)
I have added to the table as your comments appeared. As I said, I
think just one representative work per composer is enough to make
the point, therefore I have eliminated repetitions. Also, I have
added a list of composers I found in a thread of a couple of years
ago (thanks DejaNews!) whose subject was "Atheist Composers."
I have left a "xxx" or a "?" mark wherever I don't feel too
confident about the sources or I simply don't know. Your help
filling in the blanks may earn you a mention on what may one day be
a Web page! So, sources are very welcome! See what y'all think of
it:
Agnostic Composers/Religious Music:
Composer: Work:
~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Alan Bush (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
Bela Bartok (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
Benjamin Britten (Agnostic) xxx (xxx)
Claude Debussy (Non-religious) xxx (xxx)
Cornelius Cardew (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
Dimitri Kabalevsky (Atheist) Requiem (Christian)
Dimitri Shostakovich (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
Franz Schubert (Free-thinker) Ave Maria (Christian)
Fred Rzewski (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
Frederick Delius (Non-religious) Mass (Christian)
Gerald Finzi (Agnostic) Magnificat (Christian)
Giusseppe Verdi (Agnostic) Requiem (Christian)
Gustav Holst (Agnostic) "Hymn of Jesus" (Christian)
Gustav Mahler (Non-religious) Symphony #8 (Christian?)
Hans Henze (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
Hector Berlioz (Agnostic) "Te Deum" (Christian)
Jean Sibelius (Theist?) xxx (xxx)
Johannes Brahms (Agnostic) German Requiem (Christian)
John Rutter (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
Leonard Bernstein (Non-religious) Requiem (Christian)
Leos Janacek (Agnostic) Glagolithic Mass (Christian)
Ludwig Beethoven (Pantheist) Missa Solemnis (Christian)
Luigi Nono (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
Nicolay Rimksy-Korsakov (Agnostic?) xxx (xxx)
Ralph Vaugham Williams (Agnostic) Mass in G minor (Anglican)
Richard Wagner (Non-religious) xxx (xxx)
Robert Schumann (Non-religious?) xxx (xxx)
Sergey Rachmaninoff (Agnostic?) xxx (xxx)
Stefan Wolpe (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
Wolfgang Mozart (Free-thinker) Requiem (Christian)
Religious Composers/Agnostic Music:
Composer: Work:
~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Alan Hovhannes (Mystic) Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam (Atheist)
Carl Orff (Christian?) Carmina Burana (Pagan)
Franz Lizt (Catholic?) xxx (xxx)
John Cage (Buddhist?) xxx (xxx)
(Use fixed width to see above table properly).
Sources:
~~~~~~~~
Acknowledgments:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ai...@detroit.freenet.org (Roger F. Hane)
ame...@ix.netcom.com (Mark Melson)
art4...@leonis.nus.sg (Chia Han-Leon)
av...@aol.com (AVIKG)
big...@msn.com (E Schaffer)
che...@Elroy.UH.EDU (Bill Harrison)
ch...@ida.liu.se (Christer Backstrom)
chri...@netcom.com (Christopher A. Lee)
dmc...@mozart.cts.com (David M. Cook)
dor...@pilot.msu.edu (Peter Dorman)
for...@netcom.com (Frank Forman)
gws...@cats.ucsc.edu (Gene Ward Smith)
i...@deimos.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
jgo...@mhc.mtholyoke.edu (Jeff Gower)
jpro...@uh.edu (John Proffitt)
jtb...@presby.edu (Jon Bell)
ke...@mrl.co.nz (Keith Benson)
le...@iaccess.za (Leon Retief)
min...@athina.mit.edu (Chris M Fang-Yen)
m...@sirius.com (Mike Painter)
pe...@cs.rug.nl (Peter Arendz)
rose...@asp.hao.ucar.edu (Colin Rosenthal)
sam...@pixi.com (George)
stev...@charlotte.infi.net (Steve Hehr)
t...@panix.com (Tom Parsons)
will...@gold.tc.umn.edu (Robin L Willis)
---
Benjamin E. Buck
Jeff Smithpeters wrote:
> you. See my earlier post.
I think we need a clarification of terms
Atheists don't believe there is a God
Agnostics aren't sure if there is a God
Deists know there is a God but aren't sure of what nature God is or what
religion(s) accurately depict the Deity.
Avik wouldn't have to work very hard to demonstrate that Mahler's
Catholicism was more of a means of advancing his career than a means of
advancing his spirituality. However, it seems to me that the term
"Deist" best explains Mahler's relationship to God. I am open to
clarification of this point. -- Ben
Roger L. Lustig
Jeff Smithpeters wrote:
>
> Mahler was NOT an agnostic. He definitely believed in God, maybe not
> the one Falwell believes in, but he believed nonetheless.
>
There's really no call for words like that. Especially since, in
the same breath, you accuse Avik of ignorance of the facts *and*
deliberate distortion of same.
Oh, and Avik has probably read more Mahler biography than you have.
Now, as to Mahler's beliefs, they're hard to pin down. How great
is the distinction between, say, an agnostic (who takes no position
on whether to believe) and a deist (who believes that the world,
while created by a deity--generally a relatively undefined one--
is not controlled or affected by the power of such a deity in
our time)? And what does it mean to 'believe' in a generalized,
vague deity (as opposed to a specific one with specific attributes,
commandments, expectations, etc.)?
Roger
Jeff Smithpeters
At 06:34 PM 11/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> >
>> If you'd like me to find page numbers, I can do that.
>
>That's not the point.
Here are MY points:
From page 76 of Bauer-Lechner's Recollections of Gustav Mahler (London:
Faber Music, 1980):
Later when Mahler's thoughts were roving farther afield to the creative
impulse in general, he said, "A magnificent symbol of the creator is
Jacob, wrestling with God until He blesses him. If the Jews had been
responsible for nothing but this image, they would still inevitably have
grown to be a formidable people--God similarly withholds His blessing
from me. I can only extort it from Him in my terrible struggles to
bring my works into being."
From page 166 of same:
Mahler played for us the Bach cantata Ich sundiger Mensch, wer wird mich
erlosen? He called it a glorious work, perhaps even Bach's most
glorious--one which opens up the widest perspectives. In this
connection, he mentioned Bach's tremendous freedom of expression, which
has probably never been equalled since, and which is founded on his
incredible skill and command over all resources.
"In Bach, all the seeds of music are found, as the world is contained in
God. It's the greatest polyphony that ever existed!"
From Bruno Walter's Gustav Mahler (Kingsport, TN: Greystone Press, 1941)
p. 200:
On people who have interpreted Mahler's conversion to Catholicism as
opportunism:
"The author does not know on what evidence this interpretation is
founded. But although Mahler may have given some cause for so
materialistic an interpretation of his conversion, it was actually
brought about by the inner logic of his evolution. His intimate and
persistant relation to the subject of death is from the outset
determined by the idea of redemption and personal immortality.
Sometimes free-thinkers have claimed Mahler as one of their kind because
of the "Pantheism" they read into his glorification of nature. To
overlook Mahler's essentially dualistic philosophy, such bias is
required as ill behooves a much vaunted liberal-mindedness. To the
unprejudiced mind Mahler's work must appear as a most eloquent and
consistent manifestation of Christian eschatology. The fact that the
formalization of his religious allegiance coincided with his appointment
at the Vienna Opera House merely proves that he integrated himself
consciously with the idea of the Empire."
From page 134 of same:
His are the fingers under whose touch strains of Beethoven could be made
to sound. Of such a kind, too, seems to be Mahler's soul: from the
earth whose affliction he suffers--seeking God. I repeat that Mahler's
religious inclinations found nourishment again and again in this kinship
of religion to music.
ENDJeff Smithpeters wrote:
>
> Mahler was NOT an agnostic. He definitely believed in God, maybe not
> the one Falwell believes in, but he believed nonetheless.
>
> Read some biography before you post lies on the newsgroup, please.
>
> AVIKG wrote:
> >
> > MAHLER's second and eighth.
> >
> > avik
Those are extracts from contemporaries of Mahler. Both impute to him
religious feelings, and quote him as assuming the existence of God. I
found another revealing passage in Alma Mahler's memoir, but I'm tired
of typing and I'm hungry.
Jeff Smithpeters
AVIKG wrote:
>
> In article <3477E9...@bellsouth.net>, Jeff Smithpeters
> <jef...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>
> the one
> >Falwell believes in, but he believed nonetheless.
>
Brian Newhouse
In article <3478BA11...@pdq.net>, Frank Christiny <fch...@pdq.net> wrote:
Some help in filling in the blanks"
> Agnostic Composers/Religious Music:
>
> Composer: Work:
> ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
>
> Alan Bush (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Bela Bartok (Atheist) no works with religious themes
> Benjamin Britten (Agnostic)
Actually, Britten seems to have settled into a liberal Anglicanism, as far
as biographies tell us; Humphrey Carpenter quotes him in a 1963 interview:
"I'm certainly a dedicated Christian, but I must confess I am influenced
by the Bishop of Woolwich [John A.T. "Honest to God" Robinson] and
Bonhoeffer, and those people whom he quotes, and at the moment I do not
find myself worshipping as regularly as perhaps I will later" (p. 419) I
would consider such a man a believing Christian, though stricter or more
conservative Christians than I may well disagree.
> Claude Debussy (Non-religious) Le martyre de St. Sebastien; La
damoiselle elue; L'enfant prodigue
> Cornelius Cardew (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Dimitri Kabalevsky (Atheist) Requiem (Christian)
Not really; it's a setting of Soviet WWII poetry in commemoration of those
who died in WWII
> Dimitri Shostakovich (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Franz Schubert (Free-thinker) Ave Maria (Christian)
> Fred Rzewski (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Frederick Delius (Non-religious) Mass (Christian)
Again, neither *A mass of life* or the *Requiem* are on liturgical or even
religious texts; the latter, indeed, is close to explicitly atheistic
> Gerald Finzi (Agnostic) Magnificat (Christian)
> Giusseppe Verdi (Agnostic) Requiem (Christian)
> Gustav Holst (Agnostic) "Hymn of Jesus" (Christian)
> Gustav Mahler (Non-religious) Symphony #8 (Christian?)
Well, anything which sets the *Veni Creator Spiritus* at such length _has_
to be on a Christian text
> Hans Henze (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Hector Berlioz (Agnostic) "Te Deum" (Christian)
> Jean Sibelius (Theist?) xxx (xxx)
> Johannes Brahms (Agnostic) German Requiem (Christian)
> John Rutter (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
Ask your local church choir director; he's done tons of carols and
anthems. He's also done a Requiem and a Gloria.
> Leonard Bernstein (Non-religious) Requiem (Christian)
Huh? I know of no Bernstein requiem. You may be thinking of his Mass, a
theater piece that incorporates a Latin-language celebration of the Mass.
You would be better off citing the *Chichester psalms*, which set three of
the Psalms in Hebrew, or even the Missa brevis based on incidental music
for *The lark*.
> Leos Janacek (Agnostic) Glagolithic Mass (Christian)
> Ludwig Beethoven (Pantheist) Missa Solemnis (Christian)
> Luigi Nono (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Nicolay Rimksy-Korsakov (Agnostic?) xxx (xxx)
*The legend of the invisible city of Kitezh...* makes use of medieval
Russian hagiographical folklore; while all sorts of pantheistic matter
gets mixed in, it is centrally Christian.
> Ralph Vaugham Williams (Agnostic) Mass in G minor (Anglican)
> Richard Wagner (Non-religious) xxx (xxx)
*Parsifal* (of course--though people have been quarrelling over its
orthodoxy for decades)
> Robert Schumann (Non-religious?) xxx (xxx)
There is a late mass and a late requiem
> Sergey Rachmaninoff (Agnostic?) xxx (xxx)
Vespers (very important Orthodox liturgical celebration)
> Stefan Wolpe (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Wolfgang Mozart (Free-thinker) Requiem (Christian)
>
Remember, just because it isn't liturgical doesn't mean it isn't religious!
--
Marge [reading a list of stuff for Apu's wedding reception]:
"...a tandoori oven, an elephant, and four castrati"
Bart: "What's a castrati?"
Marge: "I don't know, but I'm sure it's spicy"--
The Simpsons, 11/16/1997
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
AVIKG
In article <3478F2...@bellsouth.net>, Jeff Smithpeters
<jef...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>I'm hungry.
bon apetite.
avik-gms
Matthew H. Fields
In article <01bcf7a4$25bd6e40$3b42a7cf@micron>,
Oh, and here I thought it proved that all classical composers are
secretly followers of the cult of Calliope! After all, classical
music, what could be more plainly an act of open worship of Calliope!
Even Martin Luther was really a follower of Calliope, after all he's
well-known as a musician! See, this follows by the exact same
reasoning as that nonbelievers plying art for the church are secret
theists! And look at all the early operatic settings of Orfeo! At the
very least that proves that several generations of purportedly
"Christian" musicians believed in Pluto/Hades, Mercury/Hermes, and
Jupiter/Zeus! Oh, and don't forget Richard Strauss: he obviously felt
that a good striptease of a daughter for her father followed by a
public beheading was some good clean fun! And of course this
line of reasoning also goes to prove that Bizet and Puccinni were
libertine hedonists, that James Randi has magical powers, and that
Kurt Vonnegut experiences time in randomly resequenced fragments!
After all, these are topics of their entertainment, so it must
be true!
Duh!
:-)
--
Matt Fields, A.Mus.D. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields
Today's featured addresses: build...@pearlhealthbuilder.com
sbre...@DREAMSCAPE.COM ab...@netcom.com msn...@MICROSOFT.COM
AVIKG
In article <3478DC...@po.cwru.edu>, "Benjamin E. Buck" <b...@po.cwru.edu>
writes:
>However, it seems to me that the term
"Deist" best explains Mahler's
>relationship to God. I am open to
clarification of this point. -- Ben
NEVER HAVING MET THE GENTLEMAN, I AM WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT.
avik-gms
Jack Hamilton
On 22 Nov 1997 18:34:58 GMT, fie...@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew H.
Fields) wrote:
>In article <01bcf6d5$1e616ea0$2d42a7cf@micron>,
>fiddleaway <wha...@spam.com> wrote:
>>As a believer I am not surprised at all that the power and beauty of God
>>has been revealed to us through the works of both believers and skeptics
>>(and I presume even avowed and determined atheists!).
>And you should see how Paul Bunyan winks with irony at all the wonderful
>artwork developed around him!
I don't understand this reference, but I don't think that fiddleaway is
saying that everyone who writes religious music is secretly religious.
If there is a God, why should he/she/it find expression only in
believers?
>"God must have known what he was doing when he made you a freethinker."
>---George Bernard Shaw poking fun at circular reasoning in Major Barbara
There's no circular reasoning there, although there might be in context.
What's the contradiction between "God exists" and "God made you a
freethinker"?
Wasn't Durufle another atheist who wrote a wonderful mass? I can
never remember whether it's Faure or Durufle, but one of them was.
--
Jack Hamilton
j...@alumni.stanford.org
PGP ID: 79E07035
Matthew H. Fields
In article <34a19e2d....@snews.zippo.com>,
Jack Hamilton <j...@alumni.stanford.org> wrote:
>
>>"God must have known what he was doing when he made you a freethinker."
>>---George Bernard Shaw poking fun at circular reasoning in Major Barbara
>
>There's no circular reasoning there, although there might be in context.
>
>What's the contradiction between "God exists" and "God made you a
>freethinker"?
It's not a contradiction any more than "X is true because X is true"
is a contradiction. It's circular reasoning. When I incorporate the
Shm`ah into a tune of mine it's because the chant sounds cool. When
an atheist writes a mass all we can deduce from that is that the art
form evokes the shared understandings and contexts for their music
that they want. When somebody writes an ode to Paul Bunyan, we don't
have any information to show that Paul Bunyan was acting through them
to express love for a blue ox through that work.
Colin Rosenthal
On 21 Nov 1997 23:46:51 GMT,
fiddleaway <wha...@spam.com> wrote:
>As a believer I am not surprised at all that the power and beauty of God
>has been revealed to us through the works of both believers and skeptics
>(and I presume even avowed and determined atheists!). God smiles knowingly
>as you eagerly consume huge helpings of her luscious humble pie: her little
>joke!
Condescending git.
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
Robert Fink
A correction: Delius's Mass is *not* Christian. It is actually called "A
Mass of Life", and is based on Nietszche's _Also sprach Zarathustra_.
Delius also wrote an agnostic Requiem, which is, as far as i know, the
only major requiem which basically says "you die, and that's it. Get over
it."
Also, Cage may well have been into Zen, but you will get no agreement from
Buddhists that their set of beliefs is a "religion." They are relatively
clear that Buddhism is atheistic, since it does not accept the existence
of any supreme creator-type being.
rwf
> Friends,
>
> Your help has been overwhelming thus far! Honestly, I didn't
> expect to receive so much information in such a short time period.
> Thanks to all who have participated in good faith (pun intended!)
> I have added to the table as your comments appeared. As I said, I
> think just one representative work per composer is enough to make
> the point, therefore I have eliminated repetitions. Also, I have
> added a list of composers I found in a thread of a couple of years
> ago (thanks DejaNews!) whose subject was "Atheist Composers."
> I have left a "xxx" or a "?" mark wherever I don't feel too
> confident about the sources or I simply don't know. Your help
> filling in the blanks may earn you a mention on what may one day be
> a Web page! So, sources are very welcome! See what y'all think of
> it:
>
> Agnostic Composers/Religious Music:
>
> Composer: Work:
> ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
>
> Alan Bush (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Bela Bartok (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Benjamin Britten (Agnostic) xxx (xxx)
> Claude Debussy (Non-religious) xxx (xxx)
> Cornelius Cardew (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Dimitri Kabalevsky (Atheist) Requiem (Christian)
> Dimitri Shostakovich (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Franz Schubert (Free-thinker) Ave Maria (Christian)
> Fred Rzewski (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Frederick Delius (Non-religious) Mass (Christian)
> Gerald Finzi (Agnostic) Magnificat (Christian)
> Giusseppe Verdi (Agnostic) Requiem (Christian)
> Gustav Holst (Agnostic) "Hymn of Jesus" (Christian)
> Gustav Mahler (Non-religious) Symphony #8 (Christian?)
> Hans Henze (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Hector Berlioz (Agnostic) "Te Deum" (Christian)
> Jean Sibelius (Theist?) xxx (xxx)
> Johannes Brahms (Agnostic) German Requiem (Christian)
> John Rutter (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Leonard Bernstein (Non-religious) Requiem (Christian)
> Leos Janacek (Agnostic) Glagolithic Mass (Christian)
> Ludwig Beethoven (Pantheist) Missa Solemnis (Christian)
> Luigi Nono (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Nicolay Rimksy-Korsakov (Agnostic?) xxx (xxx)
> Ralph Vaugham Williams (Agnostic) Mass in G minor (Anglican)
> Richard Wagner (Non-religious) xxx (xxx)
> Robert Schumann (Non-religious?) xxx (xxx)
> Sergey Rachmaninoff (Agnostic?) xxx (xxx)
> Stefan Wolpe (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Wolfgang Mozart (Free-thinker) Requiem (Christian)
>
>
> Religious Composers/Agnostic Music:
>
> Composer: Work:
> ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
--
"I notice that I am still very hesitant to delve into the nineteenth century. All kinds of things happened in music then that I don't think are good. After Chopin and Mendelssohn, we landed in a mudbath that only got cleaned up with the _Sacre_" -- Louis Andriessen
fiddleaway
Colin Rosenthal wrote
> fiddleaway wrote:
>
> >As a believer I am not surprised at all that the power and beauty of God
> >has been revealed to us through the works of both believers and skeptics
> >(and I presume even avowed and determined atheists!). God smiles
knowingly
> >as you eagerly consume huge helpings of her luscious humble pie: her
little
> >joke!
>
> Condescending git.
True. Caught me....But, what's a git?
fiddleaway
Jack Hamilton wrote
> (Matthew H. wrote:
>
> >fiddleaway wrote:
>
> >>As a believer I am not surprised at all that the power and beauty of
God
> >>has been revealed to us through the works of both believers and
skeptics
> >>(and I presume even avowed and determined atheists!).
>
> >And you should see how Paul Bunyan winks with irony at all the wonderful
> >artwork developed around him!
>
> I don't understand this reference, but I don't think that fiddleaway is
> saying that everyone who writes religious music is secretly religious.
>
Thanks. You're right. My original point was that God is *in* the music.
Let's put it another way that might be more palatable for the agnostics and
atheists of the world. (At least logically correct, anyway).
Assume for a moment that God does exist. It's not surprising that she
would express herself through the works of people in a way that
communicates her beauty and power to other people. She doesn't care
whether the music creators believe in her or not. They are merely her
tools, doing her bidding, loving it and doing a great service for the rest
of us in the mean time. In fact, we have believing and non-believing
composers who write works both secular and non-secular (their are four
combinations here). And we believers will find the devine inspiration of
God in all of them.
In all fairness to Matthew, I did use circular reasoning in my original
post when I stated that the beauty and power of God one feel's in the music
is the proof of God for which agnostics seek. This is totally circular
logic. Mea Culpa.
It's not really proof. But to me, it's affirmation.
jerry and judy
Don't leave out one of the greatest (and most enigmatic, religious and
otherwise):
Many people who knew Franz Schubert questioned the strength of his
religious beliefs. A friend of his sent him a concert invitation which
began:"Credo in unum Deum," and then continued: "You do not, I know, but
you will believe that Tietze is going to sing your "Nachthelle" at the
music club this evening."
Schubert himself said, referring to his Lied "Ave Maria:" "People have
been greatly *surprised* at my piety, which I expressed in a hymn to the
Holy Virgin and which, it seems, touches all hearts and arouses feelings
of devotion. I believe this is because my devotion is never forced and I
only compose hymns or prayers when I am *involuntarily* overcome by such a
feeling; but when this happens it is usually true and proper devotion."
(Emphasis added.)
Schubert completed 6 Masses, began several others and composed other
liturgical works, as well as numerous other sacred works. It is
interesting to note that whenever he composed the "Credo" in his Masses,
he never set the words "And I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic
church." ("Catholic" here is written with a lower case "c" and means
"universal," not "Roman Catholic.") This could hardly have been an
oversight, having occurred 6 times. So it is clear that he certainly did
not identify himself with the institutional church.
Mike Painter
Rick Hayward
The message <3478DC...@po.cwru.edu>
from "Benjamin E. Buck" <b...@po.cwru.edu> contains these words:
> Agnostics aren't sure if there is a God
No - agnostics have an essential philosophical belief that such
issues are unknown or, indeed, unknowable. A slightly different
thing. Admittedly the common (sloppy) usage is that which you state.
--
RH
Rick Hayward, Wakefield, West Yorkshire
rick.h...@zetnet.co.uk
AVIKG
In article <65cirb$5jb$1...@ncar.ucar.edu>, rose...@asp.hao.ucar.edu (Colin
Rosenthal) writes:
>Colin Rosenthal
perhaps you could show up at the MAHLERFest in january? many of the MAHLERtypes
will be there.
avik-gms
William Lloyd
This is wrong as to Mozart.
Frank Christiny <fch...@pdq.net> wrote in article
<3478BA11...@pdq.net>...
Colin Rosenthal
On 24 Nov 1997 22:02:17 GMT,
fiddleaway <wha...@spam.com> wrote:
>Colin Rosenthal wrote
>> Condescending git.
>
>True. Caught me....But, what's a git?
It's a bit like a jerk. Happy Thanksgiving :-)
piper
>Mahler was NOT an agnostic. He definitely believed in God, maybe not
>the one Falwell believes in, but he believed nonetheless.
>
>Read some biography before you post lies on the newsgroup, please.
Uh, Avik is the head of the Mahler Society in the U.S. I think he
knows something about Mahler's biography.
piper
On Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:19:46 -0600, Frank Christiny <fch...@pdq.net>
wrote:
[snip]
>Agnostic Composers/Religious Music:
>
>Composer: Work:
>~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
>
>Alan Bush (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
>Bela Bartok (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
>Benjamin Britten (Agnostic) xxx (xxx)
>Claude Debussy (Non-religious) xxx (xxx)
>Cornelius Cardew (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
>Dimitri Kabalevsky (Atheist) Requiem (Christian)
>Dimitri Shostakovich (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
>Franz Schubert (Free-thinker) Ave Maria (Christian)
>Fred Rzewski (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
>Frederick Delius (Non-religious) Mass (Christian)
>Gerald Finzi (Agnostic) Magnificat (Christian)
>Giusseppe Verdi (Agnostic) Requiem (Christian)
>Gustav Holst (Agnostic) "Hymn of Jesus" (Christian)
>Gustav Mahler (Non-religious) Symphony #8 (Christian?)
>Hans Henze (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
>Hector Berlioz (Agnostic) "Te Deum" (Christian)
And his wonderful Requiem.
>Jean Sibelius (Theist?) xxx (xxx)
>Johannes Brahms (Agnostic) German Requiem (Christian)
>John Rutter (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
>Leonard Bernstein (Non-religious) Requiem (Christian)
And a Mass. And don't forget: Bernstein was Jewish.
P.S. I hope there are no trolls who want to argue with me about what
it means to be Jewish. Ask questions on soc.culture.jewish or
something.
>Leos Janacek (Agnostic) Glagolithic Mass (Christian)
>Ludwig Beethoven (Pantheist) Missa Solemnis (Christian)
And his earlier Mass in C.
>Luigi Nono (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
>Nicolay Rimksy-Korsakov (Agnostic?) xxx (xxx)
>Ralph Vaugham Williams (Agnostic) Mass in G minor (Anglican)
>Richard Wagner (Non-religious) xxx (xxx)
>Robert Schumann (Non-religious?) xxx (xxx)
>Sergey Rachmaninoff (Agnostic?) xxx (xxx)
>Stefan Wolpe (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
>Wolfgang Mozart (Free-thinker) Requiem (Christian)
And several Masses, Ave Verum Corpus, etc.
Ezra Laderman wrote a Mass for Cain. He's Jewish.
>
>
Regards,
ML
piper
>In article <3478BA11...@pdq.net>, Frank Christiny <fch...@pdq.net> wrote:
>
>Some help in filling in the blanks"
>> Agnostic Composers/Religious Music:
>>
>> Composer: Work:
>> ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
>>
>> Alan Bush (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
>> Bela Bartok (Atheist) no works with religious themes
>> Benjamin Britten (Agnostic)
>
>Actually, Britten seems to have settled into a liberal Anglicanism, as far
>as biographies tell us; Humphrey Carpenter quotes him in a 1963 interview:
>"I'm certainly a dedicated Christian, but I must confess I am influenced
>by the Bishop of Woolwich [John A.T. "Honest to God" Robinson] and
>Bonhoeffer, and those people whom he quotes, and at the moment I do not
>find myself worshipping as regularly as perhaps I will later" (p. 419) I
>would consider such a man a believing Christian, though stricter or more
>conservative Christians than I may well disagree.
[snip]
Do you know how he reconciled the contradiction (if he saw one)
between Christian belief and homosexuality?
ML
Brian Newhouse
In article <347b0a8a...@news.interport.net>, pi...@interport.net
(piper) wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 03:27:02 GMT, newh...@mail.crisp.net (Brian
> Newhouse) wrote:
>
> >In article <3478BA11...@pdq.net>, Frank Christiny
<fch...@pdq.net> wrote:
> >
> >Some help in filling in the blanks"
> >> Agnostic Composers/Religious Music:
[snip]
> >> Benjamin Britten (Agnostic)
> >
> >Actually, Britten seems to have settled into a liberal Anglicanism, as far
> >as biographies tell us; Humphrey Carpenter quotes him in a 1963 interview:
> >"I'm certainly a dedicated Christian, but I must confess I am influenced
> >by the Bishop of Woolwich [John A.T. "Honest to God" Robinson] and
> >Bonhoeffer, and those people whom he quotes, and at the moment I do not
> >find myself worshipping as regularly as perhaps I will later" (p. 419) I
> >would consider such a man a believing Christian, though stricter or more
> >conservative Christians than I may well disagree.
> [snip]
>
> Do you know how he reconciled the contradiction (if he saw one)
> between Christian belief and homosexuality?
>
> ML
Well, he seems to have been a rather, er, liberal Christian, to judge from
the above quote; I seem to remember that *Honest to God* somehow related
to the death-of-God talk that was almost trendy at the time. (Any
theology groupies want to correct us on this?)
Also, I don't think the Anglican Church was particularly vocal about
homosexuality at the time of the interview. I would suspect that the
Church held a live-and-let-live-but-just-be-discreet-about-it attitude,
which would have been just fine with Britten and Pears (who appreciated
discretion). Certainly in this country, at least, there has in this
century been a strong if closeted gay male presence among the Episcopal
priesthood, especially the smells-and-bells High Church wing; this may
well reflect tendencies in the mother country.
So the contradiction would have been unlikely to come up.
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
Robert Fink
> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 03:27:02 GMT, newh...@mail.crisp.net (Brian
> Newhouse) wrote:
>
> >In article <3478BA11...@pdq.net>, Frank Christiny
<fch...@pdq.net> wrote:
> >
> >Some help in filling in the blanks"
> >> Agnostic Composers/Religious Music:
> >>
> >> Composer: Work:
> >> ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
> >>
> >> Alan Bush (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> >> Bela Bartok (Atheist) no works with religious themes
> >> Benjamin Britten (Agnostic)
> >
> >Actually, Britten seems to have settled into a liberal Anglicanism, as far
> >as biographies tell us; Humphrey Carpenter quotes him in a 1963 interview:
> >"I'm certainly a dedicated Christian, but I must confess I am influenced
> >by the Bishop of Woolwich [John A.T. "Honest to God" Robinson] and
> >Bonhoeffer, and those people whom he quotes, and at the moment I do not
> >find myself worshipping as regularly as perhaps I will later" (p. 419) I
> >would consider such a man a believing Christian, though stricter or more
> >conservative Christians than I may well disagree.
> [snip]
>
> Do you know how he reconciled the contradiction (if he saw one)
> between Christian belief and homosexuality?
>
He stayed in the closet and felt shame. cf. Philip Brett's _Peter Grimes_
handbook for Cambridge.
rwf
William H. Pittman
> Atheists don't believe there is a God
> Agnostics aren't sure if there is a God
> Deists know there is a God but aren't sure of what nature God is or what
> religion(s) accurately depict the Deity.
Then there are Unitarians, who pray to whom it may concern.
--
William H. Pittman
William H. Pittman
In article <jerbidoc-241...@lc239.zianet.com>,
jerb...@zianet.com (jerry and judy) wrote:
> Schubert himself said, referring to his Lied "Ave Maria:" "People have
> been greatly *surprised* at my piety, which I expressed in a hymn to the
> Holy Virgin and which, it seems, touches all hearts and arouses feelings
> of devotion."
Pretty weird thing for him to say, since his Ave Maria is not "a hymn to
the Holy Virgin" at all. It's a setting of a poem from Sir Walter Scott's
Lady of the Lake (or something like that), about a young woman (Ellen)
praying the Ave Maria.
--
William H. Pittman
Mike Painter
In article <whpitt-2511...@dialup-136.global2000.net>,
Actually, the song is not about Ellen praying the "Ave Maria." It is
addressed to Mary herself, so it would qualify as a "hymn to the Holy
Virgin." You are correct that it is from Sir Walter Scott's "Lady of the
Lake."
Mike Painter
Ave Maria! Maiden mild!
Listen to a maiden's prayer!
Thou canst hear though from the wild,
Thou canst save amid despair.
Safe may we sleep beneath thy care,
Though banish'd, outcast and reviled -
Maiden! hear a maiden's prayer;
Mother, hear a suppliant child!
Ave Maria!
Ave Maria! undefiled!
The flinty couch we now must share
Shall seem this down of eider piled,
If thy protection hover there.
The murky cavern's heavy air
Shall breathe of balm if thou hast smiled;
Then, maiden! hear a maiden's prayer;
Mother, list a suppliant child!
Ave Maria!
Ave Maria! stainless styled!
Foul demons of the earth and air,
From this their wonted haunt extied,
Shall flee before thy presence fair,
We bow us to our lot of care,
Beneath thy guidence reconciled;
Hear for a maid a maiden's prayer,
And for a father hear a child!
Ave Maria!
Matthew H. Fields
Hey, on soc.culture.jewish the Lubavitches used to periodically post a
long letter (maybe they still do) on the theme of "So-and-so talks
Leonard Bernstein into putting on tefillin not once but twice!" I
have some tefillin at home (for those who were wondering, they're
evidence that Jews are traditionally into heavy leather...), and I
play a shofar, does that make me a theist?
Inquiring minds....
--
Matt Fields, A.Mus.D. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields
Today's featured addresses: t...@bizzy.net st...@adnc.com
dns-...@SMARTNAP.COM ma...@GAYWEB.COM lbe...@ljextra.com build...@pearlhealthbuilder.com sbre...@DREAMSCAPE.COM
Matthew H. Fields
In article <01bcf923$ef7f4c00$5b42a7cf@micron>,
fiddleaway <wha...@spam.com> wrote:
>In all fairness to Matthew, I did use circular reasoning in my original
>post when I stated that the beauty and power of God one feel's in the music
>is the proof of God for which agnostics seek. This is totally circular
>logic. Mea Culpa.
>It's not really proof. But to me, it's affirmation.
Well, hey, to me, it's evidence of the adaptability of the human mind
to varied circumstances. If offered a reliable venue to write music using
"sacred texts", I might bite---for the purpose of getting my music heard.
Matthew H. Fields
Didn't Mozart hang with the Freemasons at one time?
Simon Roberts
fiddleaway (wha...@spam.com) wrote:
: Thanks. You're right. My original point was that God is *in* the music.
: Let's put it another way that might be more palatable for the agnostics and
: atheists of the world. (At least logically correct, anyway).
: Assume for a moment that God does exist. It's not surprising that she
: would express herself through the works of people in a way that
: communicates her beauty and power to other people. She doesn't care
: whether the music creators believe in her or not.
The number of assumptions you are making is breathtaking. What, for
instance, makes you think that she even likes music?
Simon
fiddleaway
Simon Roberts wrote:
> fiddleaway wrote:
[snip]
> : Assume for a moment that God does exist. It's not surprising that she
> : would express herself through the works of people in a way that
> : communicates her beauty and power to other people. She doesn't care
> : whether the music creators believe in her or not.
>
> The number of assumptions you are making is breathtaking. What, for
> instance, makes you think that she even likes music?
I see only one assumption. The stated one. I don't see anyplace in the
above statement where I say that God likes music. But
I'm pretty sure that God does like music - the part of God that is in
humanity demonstrably loves music. Of course, I guess there are those that
hate music, so perhaps you could say there's a part of God that doesn't
like it. I do not assume that God is this complex, but I bet he is.
Another possibility is that people who hate music have lost touch with God.
Of course their are those that hate God but love music. Go figure!
I don't make any assumptions about his gender either (if you were
wondering).
--
-dnc-
to reply, change 'dnc' to 'dcollins' in email address
big...@msn.com
>
> Your help has been overwhelming thus far! Honestly, I didn't
> expect to receive so much information in such a short time period.
> Thanks to all who have participated in good faith (pun intended!)
> I have added to the table as your comments appeared. As I said, I
> think just one representative work per composer is enough to make
> the point, therefore I have eliminated repetitions. Also, I have
> added a list of composers I found in a thread of a couple of years
> ago (thanks DejaNews!) whose subject was "Atheist Composers."
> I have left a "xxx" or a "?" mark wherever I don't feel too
> confident about the sources or I simply don't know. Your help
> filling in the blanks may earn you a mention on what may one day be
> a Web page! So, sources are very welcome! See what y'all think of
> it:
>
>
> Composer: Work:
> ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
>
> Alan Bush (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Benjamin Britten (Agnostic) xxx (xxx)
> Claude Debussy (Non-religious) xxx (xxx)
> Cornelius Cardew (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Dimitri Kabalevsky (Atheist) Requiem (Christian)
> Dimitri Shostakovich (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Franz Schubert (Free-thinker) Ave Maria (Christian)
> Fred Rzewski (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Frederick Delius (Non-religious) Mass (Christian)
> Gerald Finzi (Agnostic) Magnificat (Christian)
> Giusseppe Verdi (Agnostic) Requiem (Christian)
> Gustav Holst (Agnostic) "Hymn of Jesus" (Christian)
> Gustav Mahler (Non-religious) Symphony #8 (Christian?)
> Hans Henze (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Hector Berlioz (Agnostic) "Te Deum" (Christian)
> Johannes Brahms (Agnostic) German Requiem (Christian)
> John Rutter (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Leonard Bernstein (Non-religious) Requiem (Christian)
> Ludwig Beethoven (Pantheist) Missa Solemnis (Christian)
> Nicolay Rimksy-Korsakov (Agnostic?) xxx (xxx)
> Ralph Vaugham Williams (Agnostic) Mass in G minor (Anglican)
> Richard Wagner (Non-religious) xxx (xxx)
> Robert Schumann (Non-religious?) xxx (xxx)
> Sergey Rachmaninoff (Agnostic?) xxx (xxx)
> Stefan Wolpe (Atheist) xxx (xxx)
> Wolfgang Mozart (Free-thinker) Requiem (Christian)
>
>
> Composer: Work:
> ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Benjamin Britten : Sinfonia da Requiem Op 20
Claude Debussy : The Martydom of San Sebastian
N Rimsky-Korsakov : Liturgy of St John Chrysostom Op 22
Serge Rachmaninov : Liturgy of St John Chrysostom Op 31
Richard Wagner : Parsifal (opera)
Carl Nielsen (Agnostic) : Saul & David (opera)
E Schaffer
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
John Soward Bayne
fiddleaway wrote:
>
> Simon Roberts wrote:
> > fiddleaway wrote:
> [snip]
> > : whether the music creators believe in her or not.
> >
> > The number of assumptions you are making is breathtaking. What, for
> > instance, makes you think that she even likes music?
>
> I see only one assumption. The stated one. I don't see anyplace in the
> above statement where I say that God likes music. But
> I'm pretty sure that God does like music - the part of God that is in
> humanity demonstrably loves music.
Psalm 150
1 Hallelujah!
Praise God in his holy temple; *
praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts; *
praise him for his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the blast of the ram's-horn; *
Praise him with lyre and harp.
4 Praise him with timbrel and dance; *
praise him with strings and pipe.
5 Praise him with resounding cymbals; *
praise him with loud-clanging cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath *
praise the Lord.
Hallelujah!
(Episcopal Church USA) Book of Common Prayer Psalter, 1979
Sounds like a music-lover to me.
JSBayne
William Lloyd
Mozart was a Freemason to the very end. But you must understand that (a)
Masonary was originally a Roman Catholic organization, (b) the Roman
Catholic Church instituted its negative view on membership in Freemasonery
[how DO you spell that?] AT THE TIME Mozart was [already] a member, and (c)
he switched lodges to avoid continued association with those not
sufficiently Roman Catholic (in his view) at his old lodge, and joined a
new lodge to be with others with whose faith he was comfortable, and tried
to reconcile his membership with the Church's views. But he was a devoted
Roman Catholic to the end, though of course like any intelligent person he
had difficulties with particular points including this as to Freemasonery.
Matthew H. Fields <fie...@zip.eecs.umich.edu> wrote in article
<65fbhh$8jt$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>...
Simon Roberts
Distribution:
John Soward Bayne (John_...@nt.com) wrote:
: Psalm 150
: 1 Hallelujah!
: Praise God in his holy temple; *
: praise him in the firmament of his power.
: 2 Praise him for his mighty acts; *
: praise him for his excellent greatness.
: 3 Praise him with the blast of the ram's-horn; *
: Praise him with lyre and harp.
: 4 Praise him with timbrel and dance; *
: praise him with strings and pipe.
: 5 Praise him with resounding cymbals; *
: praise him with loud-clanging cymbals.
: 6 Let everything that has breath *
: praise the Lord.
: Hallelujah!
: (Episcopal Church USA) Book of Common Prayer Psalter, 1979
: Sounds like a music-lover to me.
Really? Just sounds like someone who assumes s/he is one. Anyway, what
music lover would want "loud clanging cymbals"? It'll be bagpipes
next....
Simon
fiddleaway
Matthew H. Fields wrote
> fiddleaway wrote: (about the God he "feels" in the music)
>
>
> >It's not really proof. But to me, it's affirmation.
>
> Well, hey, to me, it's evidence of the adaptability of the human mind
> to varied circumstances. If offered a reliable venue to write music
using
> "sacred texts", I might bite---for the purpose of getting my music heard.
Yeah. Different strokes and all that...
And as for your future works sacred or secular, may the Lord be with
you....:-)
fiddleaway
Simon Roberts wrote
>
> John Soward Bayne (John_...@nt.com) wrote:
>
> : Psalm 150
> : 1 Hallelujah!
> : Praise God in his holy temple; *
> : praise him in the firmament of his power.
> : Sounds like a music-lover to me.
>
> Really? Just sounds like someone who assumes s/he is one. Anyway, what
> music lover would want "loud clanging cymbals"? It'll be bagpipes
> next....
>
> Simon
>
Aye laddie, there's a poor man with a small heart whose feet are quiet when
the piper's a playin'
fiddleaway
to reply, change 'dnc' to 'dcollins' in email address
AVIKG wrote
>"fiddleaway" writes
>
> >Assume for a moment that God does exist. [snip] She doesn't care
> > :
> >whether the music creators believe in her or not.
>
>
> I CAN SEE THAT COLLEGIATE HUMOR HAS NOT CHANGED MUCH SINCE I MADE THE
ROUNDS
> IN THE STUDENTS' CAFETERIA.
Nor has your ability to cast insults.
--
-dnc-
po...@hotmail.com
In article <01bcfa12$669dbc60$LocalHost@micron>,
"fiddleaway" <d...@sd.znet.com> (and, in the distance, Rome burns) wrote:
> I see only one assumption. The stated one. I don't see anyplace in the
> above statement where I say that God likes music. But
> I'm pretty sure that God does like music - the part of God that is in
> humanity demonstrably loves music.
What part is that??
> Of course, I guess there are those that
> hate music, so perhaps you could say there's a part of God that doesn't
> like it. I do not assume that God is this complex, but I bet he is.
Why deny yourself *this* assumption?
> Another possibility is that people who hate music have lost touch with God.
Snort. Have you heard the "music" they play in most churches these days?
Now that is hating music.
> Of course their are those that hate God but love music. Go figure!
Er, I don't need to. The love of God, I suspect, can only be hinderance
to the appreciation of music. This is bolstered by my own experience,
given that I started getting into music around the time I completely
abandoned God.
One of the happiest periods of my life, I must say.
ciao,
John
Simon Roberts
fiddleaway (d...@sd.znet.com) wrote:
: Simon Roberts wrote
: > : Sounds like a music-lover to me.
: >
: > Really? Just sounds like someone who assumes s/he is one. Anyway, what
: > music lover would want "loud clanging cymbals"? It'll be bagpipes
: > next....
: >
: > Simon
: >
: Aye laddie, there's a poor man with a small heart whose feet are quiet when
: the piper's a playin'
Right; the rest of us are running like hell in the opposite direction....
Simon
Simon Roberts
fiddleaway (d...@sd.znet.com) wrote:
: Another possibility is that people who hate music have lost touch with God.
: Of course their are those that hate God but love music. Go figure!
I don't mean to start some theistic debate here, but who are "those that
hate God"? Atheists such as myself don't hate God; we simply don't think
there's any reason to believe that God exists. Presumably one must be a
theist of some sort to hate God (as opposed to religion, or organized
religion, etc.); are there such theists?
Simon
fran...@somat.com
Dear William,
Saw your message in rec.musical.classical about Mozart’s Masonic
membership and had to respond to some errors in it.
In article <01bcfa82$031bb050$9e98bda5@blloyd>,
"William Lloyd" <wll...@mail.state.wi.us> wrote:
>But you must understand that (a) Masonary was originally a
>Roman Catholic organization,
Au Contraire! Freemasonry has NEVER been a Roman Catholic
organization. Some researchers trace the roots of Freemasonry and
some of its rituals and customs back to the Knights Templar who were
warriors for the Church during the Crusades and their subsequent
persecution by the Church and certain European rulers. But an actual
Church organization? No.
>(b) the Roman Catholic Church instituted its negative view on
>membership in Freemasonery [how DO you spell that?] AT THE
>TIME Mozart was [already] a member,
Freemasonry, as a formal organization, was founded in 1717. By the
time Mozart joined the New Crown Freemason Lodge in 1784, three
Popes had already condemned Freemasonry many times:
Pope Clement XII, on April 28, 1738, in his Pontifical Constitution
"In Eminenti" condemned Freemasonry as being Counter-Church and
Counter-State.
Pope Benedict XIV, on March 16, 1751, published the Constitution
"Providas" in which he inserted in full In Eminenti, and gave six reasons
why Clement XII condemned Freeasonry.
Pope Clement XIII, in his Encyclical of November 25th, 1766,
"Christianae Republicae Salus," denounced published works of philoso-
phers, especially Masonic works.
F-R-E-E-M-A-S-O-N-R-Y
>and (c) he switched lodges to avoid continued association with those
>not sufficiently Roman Catholic (in his view) at his old lodge, and
>joined a new lodge to be with others with whose faith he was comfortable,
> and tried to reconcile his membership with the Church's views.
What is your reference for this statement? Mozart remained an adament
Freemason till the day he died, and I’ve found nothing that says he
changed his Lodge membership.
Sincerely,
Frederick W. Randall
Secretary
Rantoul Lodge No. 470,
Ancient Free and Accepted Masons
Rantoul, Illinois
2 B 1 ASK 1
Matthew H. Fields
In article <19971126195...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
AVIKG <av...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <65fcbb$94l$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, fie...@zip.eecs.umich.edu
>(Matthew H. Fields) writes:
>
>>Hey, on soc.culture.jewish the Lubavitches used to periodically post a
>long
>>letter (maybe they still do) on the theme of "So-and-so talks
>Leonard
>>Bernstein into putting on tefillin not once but twice!" I
>have some tefillin
>>at home (for those who were wondering, they're
>evidence that Jews are
>>traditionally into heavy leather...), and I
>play a shofar, does that make me
>>a theist?
> Inquiring minds....
>
Help me out here, it's been a while.
You say I---love the sight of light and the voice of the shofar...?
and That doesn't... something? Am I getting a single word right here?
Matthew H. Fields
In article <19971123230...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
AVIKG <av...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <347784D5...@earthlink.net>, Constantin Marcou
><conm...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>>Hey, that's pretty cheeky, considering you're responding to the President
>of
>>the Mahler Society AND the close associate/spokesperson/intermediary
>for this
>>group to Henri Louis de la Grange! (If you're so interested in
>biography,
>>perhaps the name will ring a bell....)
>
>--
>Best regards,
>Con
>
>now, now Con, let's not turn this into a hollow ground. each of us is entitled
>to an opinion which at times may vary from that of others.
>
>as our biblical elders used to say:"le'kol echad yesh et shelo".
umm, is that "If you gots to listen to one voice, it's your own"????
jh2
po...@hotmail.com wrote in article <8805808...@dejanews.com>...
>
>
> Er, I don't need to. The love of God, I suspect, can only be hinderance
> to the appreciation of music. This is bolstered by my own experience,
> given that I started getting into music around the time I completely
> abandoned God.
>
Two points.
1. It sounds like you never knew God.
2. Are there any good logic courses at a college near you ?
Peace,
JH
AVIKG
In article <65hkvv$juk$2...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
(Simon Roberts) writes:
> (Episcopal Church USA) Book of Common Prayer Psalter, 1979
: Sounds like a
>music-lover to me.
you should hear what it is like in hebrew. beautiful and poetic. keep
listening. as long as the rest of us do not have to.
avik
AVIKG
In article <01bcfaaa$214fe640$5342a7cf@micron>, "fiddleaway" <d...@sd.znet.com>
writes:
>Nor has your ability to cast insults.
come on now. this was an insult?? please read it again! it was a factual
observation and a COMPLIMENT-FRIEND. UNLESS I WAS INSULTING MYSELF FOR
YESTER-YEAR'S SHENANIGANS.
avik-gms
Robert Fink
In article <65i6f2$2ka$3...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
(Simon Roberts) wrote:
Yes, they're called Manichean gnostics. They saw the Yahweh of the Old
Testament as an evil (or inept) "Demiurge", who had created the world in a
botched moment of overreaching. They believe that all humans have a spark
(pneuma) of the true Divine in them, which is trapped along with them in
the prison of the evil God.
heavy.
slidge
In article <rfink-27119...@srv-0-13.roc.ny.frontiernet.net>, rf...@frontiernet.net (Robert Fink) wrote:
>In article <65i6f2$2ka$3...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
>(Simon Roberts) wrote:
>
>> fiddleaway (d...@sd.znet.com) wrote:
>>
>> : Another possibility is that people who hate music have lost touch with God.
>> : Of course their are those that hate God but love music. Go figure!
>>
>> I don't mean to start some theistic debate here, but who are "those that
>> hate God"? Atheists such as myself don't hate God; we simply don't think
>> there's any reason to believe that God exists. Presumably one must be a
>> theist of some sort to hate God (as opposed to religion, or organized
>> religion, etc.); are there such theists?
>>
>> Simon
>
>Yes, they're called Manichean gnostics. They saw the Yahweh of the Old
>Testament as an evil (or inept) "Demiurge", who had created the world in a
>botched moment of overreaching. They believe that all humans have a spark
>(pneuma) of the true Divine in them, which is trapped along with them in
>the prison of the evil God.
>
>heavy.
>
>rwf
>
They also claimed that Jesus had "secret" teachings that he only gave the
disciples, whereas the rest of the world had to make do with his parables.
Valentinus, a gnostic from the 2nd century, claimed to have received the
teachings from Theudas, who was a student of Paul. Many of the gnostics
didn't necessarily think of God as "evil" - he was more thought of as
"deranged".
And, of course, the church had them crushed. Heathens. Had it coming.
G. Brown
gnostic between here and Toledo!....shame on you.....****
AVIKG
In article <65ihsm$hat$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, fie...@zip.eecs.umich.edu
(Matthew H. Fields) writes:
>>as our biblical elders used to say:"le'kol echad yesh et shelo".
umm, is
>that "If you gots to listen to one voice, it's your own"????
very good try. you were close.its is "each has his own". ideas, opinions etc.
avik-gms
AVIKG
In article <65iguj$gv2$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, fie...@zip.eecs.umich.edu
(Matthew H. Fields) writes:
>>ATA OHEV RAY'ACH SHEL OR VE'KOL SHEL SHOFAR. ZE LO SHAYACH LE DAT.
Help me
>out here, it's been a while.
You say I---love the sight of light and the
>voice of the shofar...?
and That doesn't... something? Am I getting a single
>word right here?
you are doing very well. you could start teaching hebrew. "you love the smell
of leather and the sound of the shofar. that has nothing to do with religion."
avik-gms
Matthew H. Fields
In article <19971128005...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
i'd have to learn Hebrew first, and at the moment I'm busy with
A.S.L... and on the leather bit, actually I'm a vegetarian, the
smell of leather doesn't do a thing for me!
--
Matt Fields, A.Mus.D. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields
Today's featured addresses: fr...@CT.RR.COM t...@bizzy.net st...@adnc.com
AVIKG
In article <65l8rs$fd4$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, fie...@zip.eecs.umich.edu
(Matthew H. Fields) writes:
>'d have to learn Hebrew first, and at the moment I'm busy with
A.S.L... and
>on the leather bit, actually I'm a vegetarian, the
smell of leather doesn't
>do a thing for me!
you would have to read the original in order to see what i was responding to.
good luck with the a.s.l.
avik-gms
Matthew H. Fields
In article <8802650...@dejanews.com>, <big...@msn.com> wrote:
>Not being athiest myself, though by no means into organized religion, in
>listening to these works, one is impressed that these fellows were
>inspired by SOMETHING!
The doctrine of inspiration is a whole additional ball of wax waiting
to be debunked. But letting it lie, let's just point out that we cannot
guage from this presumption whether they were inspired by their mothers,
booze, a good commission, or the fact that the church in their country
was and remains the main vehicle for choral music.
Matthew H. Fields
In article <01bcfb38$37ac2460$b90a26cb@andyp200>, jh2 <j...@space.net.au> wrote:
>po...@hotmail.com wrote in article <8805808...@dejanews.com>...
>>
>>
>> Er, I don't need to. The love of God, I suspect, can only be hinderance
>> to the appreciation of music. This is bolstered by my own experience,
>> given that I started getting into music around the time I completely
>> abandoned God.
>>
>
>Two points.
>
>1. It sounds like you never knew God.
Hey, I never knew Paul Bunyan either!
>
>2. Are there any good logic courses at a college near you ?
Either of you?
Matthew H. Fields
In article <65hkvv$juk$2...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Simon Roberts <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Distribution:
[...]
>
>: 3 Praise him with the blast of the ram's-horn; *
>: Praise him with lyre and harp.
>
>: 4 Praise him with timbrel and dance; *
>: praise him with strings and pipe.
>
>: 5 Praise him with resounding cymbals; *
>: praise him with loud-clanging cymbals.
>
>: Sounds like a music-lover to me.
>
>Really? Just sounds like someone who assumes s/he is one. Anyway, what
>music lover would want "loud clanging cymbals"?
Steve Reich (s.v. "Tehillim")
> It'll be bagpipes
>next....
Nah, nah, mini-Moog on perpetual glissando!
>Simon
Carl Tait
In article <rfink-27119...@srv-0-13.roc.ny.frontiernet.net>,
Robert Fink <rf...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>In article <65i6f2$2ka$3...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
>(Simon Roberts) wrote:
>
>> fiddleaway (d...@sd.znet.com) wrote:
>> : Of course their are those that hate God but love music. Go figure!
>>
>> I don't mean to start some theistic debate here, but who are "those that
>> hate God"? Atheists such as myself don't hate God; we simply don't think
Right, but there's an unusual type of atheism that some people
mistakenly believe is typical. Early in his life, C. S. Lewis was
an atheist of this variety: "My argument against God was that the
universe was so cruel and unjust [_The Case for Christianity_, p. 34]."
Note Lewis's implicit assumption that there's only one unsavory deity
in question, as opposed to Zeus's crowd or the Great Twin Unicorns.
This kind of false duality is typical of his reasoning. (One wonders
if Lewis felt the need for an argument *against* mermaids.)
>Yes, they're called Manichean gnostics. They saw the Yahweh of the Old
>Testament as an evil (or inept) "Demiurge", who had created the world in a
>botched moment of overreaching. They believe that all humans have a spark
>(pneuma) of the true Divine in them, which is trapped along with them in
>the prison of the evil God.
Interesting. The last bit is reminiscent of L. Ron Hubbard's most
cherished Scientology teachings -- the ones you had to pay $12,100
to learn. Xemu, evil overlord of the federation of planets, nuked
a bunch of guys and preserved their spirits in antifreeze. These
bad spirits ("thetans") eventually got out and infected humans.
All evil human behavior is due to the thetans. These startling
revelations were made public during a 1985 lawsuit by some poor slob
who decided that this knowledge wasn't worth the twelve grand he'd
forked over.
See _Bigger Secrets_ by William Poundstone for more details. See
_Big Secrets_ and _Biggest Secrets_ while you're at it; they're all
fascinating books.
--
Carl Tait IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
cdt...@us.ibm.com Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
Matthew H. Fields
In article <347C35...@nt.com>,
John Soward Bayne <John_...@nt.com> wrote:
>fiddleaway wrote:
>>
>> Simon Roberts wrote:
>> > fiddleaway wrote:
>> [snip]
>> > : ... She doesn't care
>> > : whether the music creators believe in her or not.
>> >
>> > instance, makes you think that she even likes music?
>>
>> I see only one assumption. The stated one. I don't see anyplace in the
>> above statement where I say that God likes music. But
>> I'm pretty sure that God does like music - the part of God that is in
>> humanity demonstrably loves music.
>
>Psalm 150
>1 Hallelujah!
> Praise God in his holy temple; *
> praise him in the firmament of his power.
>
> praise him for his excellent greatness.
>
> Praise him with lyre and harp.
>
>4 Praise him with timbrel and dance; *
> praise him with strings and pipe.
>
>5 Praise him with resounding cymbals; *
> praise him with loud-clanging cymbals.
>
> praise the Lord.
> Hallelujah!
>
>
>
Sounds like poetry translated from Hebrew wherein it was selected
from other stuff and preserved to support a doctrine.
Sounds like deliberately repetitive stuff intended to be memorable.
Doesn't give me one bit of information about whether the author
liked music or only wrote about it, nor indeed about whether
Yhvh or Amaterasu or Jack Pumpkinhead like music.
Matthew H. Fields
In article <01bcfa12$669dbc60$LocalHost@micron>,>> : Assume for a moment that God does exist. It's not surprising that she
>> : would express herself through the works of people in a way that
>> : communicates her beauty and power to other people. She doesn't care
>> : whether the music creators believe in her or not.
>>
>> The number of assumptions you are making is breathtaking. What, for
>> instance, makes you think that she even likes music?
>
>I see only one assumption. The stated one. I don't see anyplace in the
>above statement where I say that God likes music. But
And that this existent god is a specific god with properties that
would make one unsurprised at its expressing itself, that it cares about
communicating, etc.
Let's go another step here. Assume not only that God exists but
is a turtle one million kilometers long. Now earthly turtles have
no vocal chords, but let's just assume that this one has vocal chords.
In fact, let's assume that these vocal chords are made of chromium-wound
steel. Just assume with me for a minute. And the earth is on
this turtle's back. And this turtle is standing on an even larger
turtle, ad infinitum.
If the turtle at the top of the stack begins to bray with
chromium-wrapped steel vocal chords, will the sound be sufficiently
loud to wake up the turtle at the bottom of the pile? Remember, there
are at least as many turtles in the pile as there are integers. Use
only the assumptions listed above. Do not evaluate whether any of
these assumptions are justified, because I tell you the turtle loves
us, and shows its love by peeing on us from time to time. This
involves peeing upwards, but you just have to trust my word because
we have all felt love and that love comes from the pee of the turtle
and that's why we write music, to encourage the turtle at the top
of the pile to try to wake up the turtle at the bottom of the pile.
The turtle loves us so much it doesn't care whether you belive in it.
It is trying to teach us to pee on each other. The only people who
don't support the ultimate goal of everybody peeing on each other
are people who hate music.
po...@hotmail.com
In article <01bcfb38$37ac2460$b90a26cb@andyp200>,
"jh2" <j...@space.net.au> wrote:
>
> po...@hotmail.com wrote in article <8805808...@dejanews.com>...
> >
> >
> > Er, I don't need to. The love of God, I suspect, can only be hinderance
> > to the appreciation of music. This is bolstered by my own experience,
> > given that I started getting into music around the time I completely
> > abandoned God.
> >
>
> Two points.
You misspelled one-half.
>
> 1. It sounds like you never knew God.
There's nothing to know, except a phantom of one's own fear.
> 2. Are there any good logic courses at a college near you ?
Given the wild assumptions of the person I was responding to, I would
think that a mere assumption of causality wasn't too much of an offense.
But perhaps the local college offers an introductory reading course.
I said my experience "bolstered" my "suspected" thesis, not proved it.
If only you Christians were similarly fastidious when it came to your
own logical faults.
> Peace,
Snort... right.
ciao,
John
george barnard
Tony T. Warnock wrote:
>
> Matthew H. Fields wrote:
> >
> > Didn't Mozart hang with the Freemasons at one time?
> >
> Urban Legend has it that Mozart was actually poisened by Salieri; the
> Freemasons were all shot during the French Revolution.
>
> The Magic Flute is supposedly based on Masonic themes.
>
> Tony
Mozart wrote at least two works with explicitly Masonic meaning
(in contrast to the Magic Flute, which may have implicit Masonic
significance): the Small Freemasonic Cantata and the Masonic Funeral
Music.
George Barnard
Cincinnati, Ohio
gbar...@fuse.net
Brian Rourke
In article <65nbfb$chj$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>,
ROTFL!!!! This hilarious post is exactly what this thread needed. Bravo
and thank you.
Brian Rourke
(written after I managed to pick myself up off the floor)
Xoán M. Carreira
|On Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:19:46 -0600, Frank Christiny <fch...@pdq.net>
|wrote:
|
|>Agnostic Composers/Religious Music:
|>
|>Composer: Work:
|>~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Fernando Lopes-Graça (atheist) *Requiem para as victimas do fascismo em
Portugal*
Xoán M. Carreira
OSG
carr...@musician.org