Movie "Glory" -> Orff's "Carmina Burana" -> Stravinsky's "Les Noces"
The Phoenix
Tonite I watched the film "Glory" for the first time. If memory serves
me correctly the initial post was an inquiry as to the 'composer of
the score, Orlff (sp?)'.
From this seemed to spring a fair torrent of replies, all (I think)
naming Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana" as the alleged "theme". From there
sprung fervent diversions that brought up "Les Noces" [Stravinsky] as
the "model" for Orff's work (with a few inuendos toward Orff's "Nazi"
(?) affectations (?) ).
If I've read the thread properly I'd like to advise EVERYONE who is
interested that the film "Glory" contained NO MUSIC by Carl Orff, and
was, in fact, a film-score by James Horner (surprisingly reminiscent of
various such scores by John Williams ("Empire of the Sun" came to mind
several times)).
The final "battle scene" of this film DID expose strong suggestions of
"O fortuna!" (from 'Carmina Burana') (MUCH in the same way that John
Williams exposes his eclectisism (above his "genius")). And from this
I can begin to suppose that James Horner (I've seen the name, but
can't remember any other specific scores/works of his off-hand) is
following in the footsteps of Williams.
Don't misunderstand me: I do have a certain respect for John Williams'
film scores (despite the many criticisms I have), and though the score of
the powerful film "Glory" was fine, I must admit I was a bit let
down in the long run due to the almost "clone-like" similarity to John
Williams' style, which is itself a deft cloning of, shall I say "great
composers"......?
So in regard to "Carmina Burana" and "Les Noces" let us remain in
dubious contention; however, let not these works be associated with
the film "Glory".
SJH
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From: d...@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (Dazza)
Path: mullian!daz
In article <18...@brahms.udel.edu> con...@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
>
>No, I (like you) pointed out that the music in Glory was by James
>Horner, however obvious a paraphrase of Orff. True, nobody seemed to
>take much notice of me, but I did say it early on.
>
>Jon Alan Conrad
The music in Glory was, IMHO, James Horner`s most magnificent score he has
done. Why is that a lot of classical people do not like Film Music and treat is
with contempt? Some even say it is boring. Well I find some classical music
boring, with some pices of music having no memorable sections (ie Greig's Piano
Cnocerto) while some Film Scores are have memorable sections (ie Glory, Star
Wars, Willow (James Horner again), and E.T. _The Extra Terrestrial).
I certainly do like a lot of classical music, but Film MUsic will always hold the
special place in my musical reportrie (sp???). I agree that film composers my
borrow small sections of classical music (ie James Horner used sections of
Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf in his score of The Land Before Time.), but this
doesn't detract from the fact that film composers are underated musicians
and deserve more adulation for what they do.
Dazza.
Favourite film composer: James Horner, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith).
kkk
--Darren Primm (Dazza), Dept EE Eng, Melb Uni, Parkville, 3052, Australia--
"You can't kill me. I'm a genius."
----Internet: d...@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au Uunet: uunet!munnari!mullian!daz----
'Victory to The United Nations Alliance for the Liberation of Kuwait'
Jon Conrad
>From this seemed to spring a fair torrent of replies, all (I think)
>naming Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana" as the alleged "theme".
No, I (like you) pointed out that the music in Glory was by James
DeAtH aPaThY
>Expires:
>References: <26...@batman.moravian.EDU> <18...@brahms.udel.edu>
>Sender:
>Reply-To: d...@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (Dazza)
>Followup-To:
>Distribution:
>Organization: Dept. of Electrical Engineering, University of Melbourne
>Keywords:
>From: d...@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (Dazza)
>Path: mullian!daz
>The music in Glory was, IMHO, James Horner`s most magnificent score he has
>done.
Fine. I can accept that. What irks my squid is:
>Why is that a lot of classical people do not like Film Music and treat is
>with contempt? Some even say it is boring.
Agh, no one has ever said anything of the sort! This thread is about the
out-n-out plagiarism of Williams, Horner, et. al, of Orff, et. al; not
whether movie music or classical music is better!
>Well I find some classical music
>boring, with some pices of music having no memorable sections (ie Greig's
>Piano Cnocerto) while some Film Scores are have memorable sections (ie Glory,
>Star Wars, Willow (James Horner again), and E.T. _The Extra Terrestrial).
The reverse is certainly often true. More often than not, in fact, IMHO.
>I certainly do like a lot of classical music, but Film MUsic will always
>hold the special place in my musical reportrie (sp???). I agree that film
>composers my borrow small sections of classical music (ie James Horner used
>sections of Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf in his score of The Land Before
>Time.), but this doesn't detract from the fact that film composers are
>underated musicians and deserve more adulation for what they do.
In the same way MC Hammer, Vanilla Ice, et. al deserve adulation for copping
a good bass line. Pfththtptht to that. :)
Try and listen to "Mars--the Bringer of War" and the Star Trek II soundtrack
sometime. Listen REAL closely when Khan and Kirk are dueling in orbit around
the asteroid. Sound familiar? I thought so.
>Dazza.
>--Darren Primm (Dazza), Dept EE Eng, Melb Uni, Parkville, 3052, Australia--
>----Internet: d...@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au Uunet: uunet!munnari!mullian!daz----
--
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Stephen Smoliar
jul...@nntp-server.caltech.edu (DeAtH aPaThY) writes:
>ne...@cs.mu.oz.au (news) writes:
>
>>Why is that a lot of classical people do not like Film Music and treat is
>>with contempt? Some even say it is boring.
>
>Agh, no one has ever said anything of the sort! This thread is about the
>out-n-out plagiarism of Williams, Horner, et. al, of Orff, et. al; not
>whether movie music or classical music is better!
>
proposed for "cooking" this particular music using equal portions of CARMINA
BURANA and the WAR REQUIEM as ingredients. I suppose anyone who had never
heard either of these compositions could find Horner's work both stimulating
and original. For my part, in the context of what I was seeing in the film,
I am STILL willing to call the work stimulating, even if I know his sources.
However, I must admit that I would be VERY hard pressed to listen to Horner's
score in a concert hall without the support of the film. The man had a job to
do, and he did it very well. Take away the context of his job, and you
basically take away the primary criterion for evaluating his work. We
need not try to compare him to Britten until he writes music which does
not require a visual crutch.
>>Well I find some classical music
>>boring, with some pices of music having no memorable sections (ie Greig's
>>Piano Cnocerto) while some Film Scores are have memorable sections (ie Glory,
>>Star Wars, Willow (James Horner again), and E.T. _The Extra Terrestrial).
>
>The reverse is certainly often true. More often than not, in fact, IMHO.
>
Perhaps what Dazza is saying is that he does not know what to do with himself
when he is confronted with music in a concert situation. The film gives him
something to pay attention. That, in turn, enhances his attention to the
music. My guess is he should check out some good videotapes of ballet.
He might discover that there is more to Tchaikovsky and Stravinsky than
he thought.
--
USPS: Stephen Smoliar
5000 Centinela Avenue #129
Los Angeles, California 90066
Internet: smo...@venera.isi.edu
Dazza
>>
>Perhaps what Dazza is saying is that he does not know what to do with himself
>when he is confronted with music in a concert situation. The film gives him
>something to pay attention. That, in turn, enhances his attention to the
>music. My guess is he should check out some good videotapes of ballet.
>He might discover that there is more to Tchaikovsky and Stravinsky than
>he thought.
With Glory I listened and bought the soundtrack about 2 months BEFORE I
saw the film, so this is sort of in a concert envioronment. And I know
there is a lot to Tchaikovsky and Stravinksky. Swan Lake is brilliant
ans Stravinsky's The rakes Progress is unforgetable. I know what to do
in a concert situation, really enjoy the music, without trying to figure
our where a certain piece of music appears in the movie. When I see a
movie, sure the music the emhances the movie, but listening ot the
soundtrack before the movie, the movie is not there to pay attention to.
What I was trying to say is that there are boring pieces of classical
music and boring pices of film music as well. It is a matter of taste,
and also I was just saying that film composers are an underrated group
of musicians.
>--
>USPS: Stephen Smoliar
> 5000 Centinela Avenue #129
> Los Angeles, California 90066
>Internet: smo...@venera.isi.edu
--Darren Primm (Dazza), Dept EE Eng, Melb Uni, Parkville, 3052, Australia--
st89...@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
to Star Trek II: the Wrath of Khan....
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Andrew S. Weiskopf
ST89...@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
"We are NOT going to pay for $1800 of Jell-O."-- Brandeis Student Senator,
regarding Student Events motion to have Jell-O wrestling.
Dazza
>Incidentally, my roommate would like to know where he can get the soundtrack
>to Star Trek II: the Wrath of Khan....
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Andrew S. Weiskopf
Star Trek II - The Wrath of Khan has just been releaased on CD through
Crescendo (GNPD 8022) You should be able to pick it up in any specialist CD
shop. Or you could order it through your favourite CD shop. If you want
it on LP or MC, I suggest second hand shops, as I believe it has
been deleted on LP and MC.
Hope that helps,
Dazza
--Darren Primm (Dazza), Dept EE Eng, Melb Uni, Parkville, 3052, Australia--
Chee Keong Law
symphony recordings. I'm looking for one to buy and would appreciate any
feedback.
(Have anyone heard Levine's recording with the Vienna Philarmonic??)
TIA
Chee Keong Law
Norm Strong
Frankly, I've never heard a really bad recording of either of these
symphonies. But I have a marginal preference for Mackerras and the Prague
Chamber Orch. This is a modern instruments performance. If you like
baroque instruments, the Orchestra of the 18th Century does a swell job.
(I can't remember the name of the conductor.)
--
Norm Strong (str...@tc.fluke.com)
2528 31st S. Seattle WA 98144 USA
Chris Brewster
Chee Keong Law writes:
I would like to hear from people about their favoutite Mozart 40th and 41st
symphony recordings. I'm looking for one to buy and would appreciate any
feedback.
My traditionalist view: Klemperer. He takes the Big approach, finding a
Beethoven kind of depth and intensity in the music. Once you've heard him you
may think the others are missing the point. (Or you may think he's imposing
something on the music that isn't inherent in it; you judge.)
Chris
Jonathan Delatizky
4-disc set of late Mozart on mid-priced EMI Studio). These feature
Klemperer's usual rhythmic solidity at reasonable tempos, and are beautifully
phrased and pointed. The sound is OK, though certainly not of the best
contemporary standards, and the Philharmonia's (or was it the New
Philharmonia? Same orchestra, anyway) playing is superb.
These are not period performances, but ones that transcend any period.
(For those who still associate Klemperer in his last years with slow tempos,
listen to the first movement of the "little" g minor K183, in which he is
considerably faster than Hogwood, for example. At least, he *sounds* faster!
I haven't compared actual timings.)
I also enjoyed Sawallisch's 1980-ish recordings with the Czech Philharmonic,
but these were never widely available over here and have not been reissued on
any CD I've seen or heard of. Mine are on Ariola-Eurodisc LPs.
Jonathan Delatizky * Bolt Beranek & Newman * FORWARD IN
dela...@bbn.com * 10 Moulton Street * ALL DIRECTIONS!
{...}!bbn!delatizky * Cambridge MA 02138 * ******
+1 617 873 3366 * FAX: +1 617 873 3776 * <3 Mustaphas 3>
Jon Conrad
have even been reissued together on CD. They are rich, colorful,
incisive, dramatic - my favorite versions of both symphonies. The
orchestra is the New Philharmonia.
Jon Alan Conrad
Dan Koren - Database Engineering Manager
>symphony recordings. I'm looking for one to buy and would appreciate any
>feedback.
Thomas Beecham, George Szell, Josef Krips.
>
>(Have anyone heard Levine's recording with the Vienna Philarmonic??)
Pure unqualified murder.
dk
--
Dan Koren phone: +1 408-524-7447
Database Engineering Manager MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
{decwrl,pyramid,sun}!mips!dk 930 DeGuigne Dr,Sunnnyvale, CA 94086
d...@mips.COM M/S 6-02
Stephen P. Guthrie
>>
>>(Have anyone heard Levine's recording with the Vienna Philarmonic??)
>
>Pure unqualified murder.
>
Why do you say this? It sounded okay to me.
config
Hmmm. My first introduction to these symphonies was back in the early 50's.
My mother would put my carriage next to the phonograph and play Mozart. Her
favourite recording was of Symphony No.40. It was played by the Cleveland
Orchestra under George Szell. I've still got it in my collection, an old
9" vinyl in lmost perfect condition. In facxt of the 8 different recordings
I have of this symphony, this is my favourite. Justthe right amount of
atmosphere.
However, I do have another suggestion for No.40: Karajan's standard
interpretation with the Vienna Philharmonic on Decca/London.
As for No.41. Leinsdorf's oldie with the Boston Symphony is still a
good performance. However, I have always liked the Halle Orchestra
under Barbirolli. The size of the ensmeble is small and makes a
very intimate reading.
BOB
Bruce Rodean
back. Based on those responses and some auditioning, I settled on Karl
Bohm and the Vienna Philharmonic on DG for Mozart's late symphonies. I
was not disappointed.
Bruce Rodean
rod...@hpfclg.fc.hp.com
Stefan
The Penguin Guide to Compact Discs give the following recommendations:
sinfonia varsovia, sir yehudi menuhin ***
eco, tate ***
prague co, mackerras ***
bav. rso, kubelik ***
vpo, boehm ***
lpo, mackerras ***
cleveland o, george szell**(*)
aam, schroder, hogwood **(*)
eco, barenboim **(*)
the stars are part of a rating system with *** being the highest rating
(*) donotes a qualification