Impressionism
Chloe Carter
In article <325A57...@asset-intertech.com>, Mike Coldewey <mcoldewey@asset-
intertech.com> writes:
>> Ravel was *not* an 'impressionist'!- Chloe
>
>What do you mean?
>I *shouldn't* call him an impressionist?
Yes.
> that a more accurate term, if needed, for Ravel would be a
>"neoclassical composer".
Precisely. The 'impressionistic' aspect of Ravel's music, while not
completely absent, is far less important to his aesthetic than the
neo-classical aspect. Ravel should be paired with Stravinsky, not Debussy.
>
>Mike
>
- Chloe
Mike Coldewey
OK. Thanks for the clarification.
I wish you had responded to my entire post. What I got out of your later
posting is that you think that the term is inaccurate in describing his
works. But there are a lot of people, like it or not, as I pointed out,
who describe him as an impressionist. I certainly agree that this is
imprecise. So I understand that you want people to be more precise in
their terminology.
I would suggest that the Internet isn't a likely place to try to change
people's use of language. But maybe it is - there's certainly a wide
audience. But if that's what you're trying to do - increase precision -
and that's an admirable goal, and one that I share, in my own expression
- I don't think that posting a single line: "Ravel was *not* an
'impressionist'!" is going to get you to your goal, nor is it such a
great example, IMHO. You're really likely to get an answer "Oh yes he
*was*!", and that can start one of these "Wasn't","Was too" exchanges we
all know and don't love.
Mike
Yves Guillemette
qpc...@frontiernet.net (Chloe Carter) wrote:
>In article <325A57...@asset-intertech.com>, Mike Coldewey <mcoldewey@asset-
>intertech.com> writes:
>>> Ravel was *not* an 'impressionist'!- Chloe
>>
>>What do you mean?
>>I *shouldn't* call him an impressionist?
>Yes.
>> that a more accurate term, if needed, for Ravel would be a
>>"neoclassical composer".
>Precisely. The 'impressionistic' aspect of Ravel's music, while not
>completely absent, is far less important to his aesthetic than the
>neo-classical aspect. Ravel should be paired with Stravinsky, not Debussy.
>- Chloe
What's in a classification? I have always referred to Ravel and
Debussy as French impressionists, "les impressionistes français".
This classification refers to impressionistic painting, from around
1870 to the turn of the century and the leaders of that style were
Debussy, Delius and Ravel. Their music rejected the harmonic and
orchestral excesses of the romantics. Now, Ravel may have writtn
music that wasn't "impressionist" in style, but he is, nevertheless, a
true leader of that period.
************************Yves Guillemette
E-Mail: yv...@infobahnos.com
ContrePoint/CounterPointers
NOUVEAU: 5eme espèces et 3 voix
NEW: 5th species and 3 voices
Solfège Premier Mouvement
WWW: http://www.infobahnos.com/~yvesg
*****************************************
S. Alan Schweitzer
who called him an impressionist were imbeciles. According to the GROVE
the earliest attempt to define the term were made by German writers. R.
Hamann's "Impressionismus in Leben und Kunst" (1907) does not refer to a
single French composer, although the author finds these musical
persuasions in the works of Wagner, Liszt, Bruckner, Wolf, and Richard
Strauss. Debussy felt closer to the French symbolist poets. He
considered himself a "realist," and did feel some empathy for the
paintings of Turner. The French composers, after Wagner, did develope a
musical tendency which, for reasons of discourse, many scholars and
specialsts have labeled impressionist. In painting it referred mainly to
technique. In literature there was suggestion, imagery and much
correspondential insight which culminated in Proust and Valery. There
were many composers outside of French who were seduced by Debussy, Ravel,
Florent Schmitt et. al. Scriabin to a certain extent incorporated
impressionistic tendencies in his works. As did many English composers:
Bax, Scott, Bridge, Moeran. Sibelius and sundry Finnish clones evinced a
style and muscial "imagery" which is impressionistic. It's a vast and
interesting topic. The impressionist muse died in France after Debussy,
but certain members of "The Six" did incorporate Debussyian
characteristics somewhat. Impressionism in music, I believe, died in
1959 in toto after Martinu's "Parables." He died in 1959.
SAS
Yves Guillemette
I did not say that the classification was good. I sais that I
reffered to them that way so those to whom I was talking or writing
had some references.
I'd much prefer the use of French modernism, to classify the music of
Debussy, Ravel. And I insist on the French part. Under Cesar
Franck's influence, the distinctive character of French music had all
but disappeared, leaving place to Germanizing music. Debussy and
Ravel (particularly Debussy) fought that influence and wrote thus the
greatest French music to that period.
Let's dumpt the "impressionist" part, then. Keep the français part.
By the way, how did Hamann define impressionism in music? Just
curious...
************************Yves Guillemette
E-Mail: yv...@infobahnos.com
ContrePoint/CounterPointers
NOUVEAU: 3 voix, 1ere et 2eme especes
NEW: 3 voices, 1st and 2nd species
S. Alan Schweitzer
Right now I do not have access to the Grove. Some of the technical aspects
of Debussy consist of creation and permutation of chords and intervals
not evident in previous composers. D. used (obviously not the first time)\
extensively pentatonic scales, parallel chords, unresolved harmonies.
Debussyean influences haunt the works of composers who flourished after
Debussy was composing at the height of his powers. The conception of
exotic, "lush" chords are evident in Ravel, in some of the composers
who informed "Les Six," even Stravinsky (in particular his Symphony in
Three Movements. Sibelius and his contemporaries were doing much of the
same thing, in their respective "imagery"; to wit, En Saga, the Oceanides,
and other Sibelian tone poems evince, sui generis, "impressionistic"
tendencies. The second movement of Madetoja's First Symphony comes to
mind; or Vaughn William's Pastoral Symphony. Arnold Bax certainly
incorporated these elements. What are these elements?A tendency
toward subtle harmonics and a "witchery," to use Lewis Foreman's
definition in the case of the Bax symphonies and tone poems. Composers
will generate their own language, and few are Debussian clones. There
is a tendency toward music for its own sake. I'm sure this sort of
thing id taught in the music schools. An excellent book title on the
subject is the one called "Impressionism in Music" by the late Christopher
Palmer. He mentions, I believe, that Wagner was a strong influence on
Debussy, in particular, his "Parsifal." I definately sense this
type of thing going on in the "Gotterdammerung," in particular in the
glorioua scene between Siegfried and the Rhine Maidens. Ravel, to be
sure, was more "classical," for want of a better term. His music was
more finely etched, more contoured. If Debussy was more of a symbolisy,
Ravel was more of a Parnassian, in the Gautier or Leconte de Lisle sense.
Ryan M. Hare
S. Alan Schweitzer (bs...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
: Right now I do not have access to the Grove. Some of the technical aspects
Ryan M. Hare
S. Alan Schweitzer (bs...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
: Debussyean influences haunt the works of composers who flourished after
: Debussy was composing at the height of his powers. The conception of
: exotic, "lush" chords are evident in Ravel, in some of the composers
: who informed "Les Six," even Stravinsky (in particular his Symphony in
: Three Movements.
Actually, the most Debussy-like piece by Stravinsky is the first act of
the opera "The Nightengale." I have sometimes played this piece to friends
as a "name this tune" test, and they're almost always very surprised to
discover it's Stravinsky, at least until the vocal part comes in. Then,
the melody is the same as in "The Song of the Nightengale" and in the
other parts of the opera, but with different harmony of course.
Ryan
Yves Guillemette
bs...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (S. Alan Schweitzer) wrote:
Just to add to the discussion and to yours and other reader's benefit,
here is what Rolland de Cande says about impressionism in Debussy's
music and what could approach a definition of "impressionism" in
music: (translated from French)
...The deep originality of Debussy's style, his exception character,
defies all classification. That,s why one must be excessively careful
when tracing a parralel with impressionist painting or symbolic
poetry. However, ina a first part of his production, Debussy shows
that he could be the purest, the most authentic of "impressionists"
(sic): melodic lines disappear in twinkling, luminous harmonies who
suggest infinite possibilities of melodic lines, emotion replaces
rethorics, feeling replaces form, interior rythm is more important
than arithmetic organisation of time...
...chef d'oeuvres of that period are: Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un
Faune, Soiree dans Grenade and Jardins sous la pluie (n. 2 and 3 of
Estampes), Nuages, La Mer, and, to a certain degree, Pelleas....
So, (that's me) I conclude that impressionism in music is not just the
evocation of imagery, that's been done for centuries, over and over,
the impressionism way of doing it is more important, more subtle, less
blatant and finely ciseled. Debussy's way.
>Right now I do not have access to the Grove. Some of the technical aspects
>of Debussy consist of creation and permutation of chords and intervals
>not evident in previous composers. D. used (obviously not the first time)\
>extensively pentatonic scales, parallel chords, unresolved harmonies.
>Debussyean influences haunt the works of composers who flourished after
>Debussy was composing at the height of his powers. The conception of
>exotic, "lush" chords are evident in Ravel, in some of the composers
>who informed "Les Six," even Stravinsky (in particular his Symphony in
>Three Movements. Sibelius and his contemporaries were doing much of the
>same thing, in their respective "imagery"; to wit, En Saga, the Oceanides,
>and other Sibelian tone poems evince, sui generis, "impressionistic"
>tendencies. The second movement of Madetoja's First Symphony comes to
>mind; or Vaughn William's Pastoral Symphony. Arnold Bax certainly
>incorporated these elements. What are these elements?A tendency
>toward subtle harmonics and a "witchery," to use Lewis Foreman's
>definition in the case of the Bax symphonies and tone poems. Composers
>will generate their own language, and few are Debussian clones. There
>is a tendency toward music for its own sake. I'm sure this sort of
>thing id taught in the music schools. An excellent book title on the
>subject is the one called "Impressionism in Music" by the late Christopher
>Palmer. He mentions, I believe, that Wagner was a strong influence on
>Debussy, in particular, his "Parsifal." I definately sense this
>type of thing going on in the "Gotterdammerung," in particular in the
>glorioua scene between Siegfried and the Rhine Maidens. Ravel, to be
>sure, was more "classical," for want of a better term. His music was
>more finely etched, more contoured. If Debussy was more of a symbolisy,
>Ravel was more of a Parnassian, in the Gautier or Leconte de Lisle sense.
************************Yves Guillemette
S. Alan Schweitzer
Yves Guillemette wrote:
>
> "S. Alan Schweitzer" <aa1...@freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu> wrote:
>
> >Yves Guillemette wrote:
> >>
> >> qpc...@frontiernet.net (Chloe Carter) wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <325A57...@asset-intertech.com>, Mike Coldewey <mcoldewey@asset-
> >> >intertech.com> writes:
> >>
> >> >>> Ravel was *not* an 'impressionist'!- Chloe
> >> >>
> >> >>What do you mean?
> >> >>I *shouldn't* call him an impressionist?
> >>
> >> >Yes.
> >>
> >> >> that a more accurate term, if needed, for Ravel would be a
> >> >>"neoclassical composer".
> >>
> >> >Precisely. The 'impressionistic' aspect of Ravel's music, while not
> >> >completely absent, is far less important to his aesthetic than the
> >> >neo-classical aspect. Ravel should be paired with Stravinsky, not Debussy.
> >>
> >> >- Chloe
> >>
> >> What's in a classification? I have always referred to Ravel and
> >> Debussy as French impressionists, "les impressionistes français".
> >> This classification refers to impressionistic painting, from around
> >> 1870 to the turn of the century and the leaders of that style were
> >> Debussy, Delius and Ravel. Their music rejected the harmonic and
> >> orchestral excesses of the romantics. Now, Ravel may have writtn
> >> music that wasn't "impressionist" in style, but he is, nevertheless, a
> >> true leader of that period.
> >> E-Mail: yv...@infobahnos.com
> >> ContrePoint/CounterPointers
> >> NEW: 5th species and 3 voices
> >> WWW: http://www.infobahnos.com/~yvesg
> >> *****************************************
>
> >who called him an impressionist were imbeciles.
>
> I did not say that the classification was good. I sais that I
> reffered to them that way so those to whom I was talking or writing
> had some references.
>
> I'd much prefer the use of French modernism, to classify the music of
> Debussy, Ravel. And I insist on the French part. Under Cesar
> Franck's influence, the distinctive character of French music had all
> but disappeared, leaving place to Germanizing music. Debussy and
> Ravel (particularly Debussy) fought that influence and wrote thus the
> greatest French music to that period.
>
> Let's dumpt the "impressionist" part, then. Keep the français part.
>
> By the way, how did Hamann define impressionism in music? Just
> curious...
>
> E-Mail: yv...@infobahnos.com
> ContrePoint/CounterPointers
> NOUVEAU: 3 voix, 1ere et 2eme especes
> NEW: 3 voices, 1st and 2nd species
> Solfège Premier Mouvement
> WWW: http://www.infobahnos.com/~yvesg
is a music that hints rather than states; in which successions of colors
take the place of dynamic development, and atmospheric sensations
supersede heroic and pathos; a music that is vague and intangible as the
changing light of day. The implementation f these ideas led to the
partial abandomnent of such of such German achievements as sonata,
symphony, thematic material, and development technique . . . . Prominent
in the impressionist vocabulary are unresolved dissonances, mostly triads
with added seconds, fourths, sixths, sevenths; the use of chords,
consonant as well as dissonant, in parallel motion; the whole tone scale
is used in the melodic as well as harmonic chordal combinations. frequent
use of the tritone (as in the Sibelius Fourth) modality, avoidance of
tghe leading tone, and irregular and fragmentary construction of phrases
(as in Scriabin's later piano works). It all applies to Debussy as well
as to Ravel, in some instances.
Allan Jones
bs...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (S. Alan Schweitzer) wrote:
>
>
>An excellent book title on the
> subject is the one called "Impressionism in Music" by the late Christopher
> Palmer. He mentions, I believe, that Wagner was a strong influence on
> Debussy, in particular, his "Parsifal."
Yes, the influence of Wagner, and Parsifal in particular
should not be overlooked. (Robin Holoway has written a book
on the relationship of Wagner to Debussy). That 'luminous'
orchestral writing that is such a feature of some parts of Parsifal
seems to me to be where the analogy with impressionism comes from.
Its influence on Pelleas et Melisande is strong.
Allan Jones
Matthew Shou-Chung Shum
On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, S. Alan Schweitzer wrote:
> > I'd much prefer the use of French modernism, to classify the music of
> > Debussy, Ravel. And I insist on the French part. Under Cesar
> > Franck's influence, the distinctive character of French music had all
> > but disappeared, leaving place to Germanizing music. Debussy and
> > Ravel (particularly Debussy) fought that influence and wrote thus the
> > greatest French music to that period.
> >
I think you're neglecting the huge influence of a German-- Schumann-- on
franck, and later both Debussy and Ravel. The latter two's great flights
in piano music would have been impossible without Schumann. The dense
chordal textures, great arpeggiatic sweep, episodic moments-- all entered
piano music via pieces like Kreisleriana! (Much more so than through
Chopin's music, I think).
Matt
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matthew Shum (415) 725-8929
cas...@leland.stanford.edu
http://www.stanford.edu/~castorp