Was Chopin gay?
Russell W. Miller
Chopin is one of the composers on the "Out Classics" CD. I had never heard that he was gay or
bisexual. IMHO there has been enough discussion on whether or not this matters, or if such a product
as the "Out Classics" CD is a good or bad thing. I just want to know, is there any evidence (and how
reliable is it) that Chopin was gay? Maybe someone just got confused about the George Sand
business?
Russell W. Miller
r...@miller.mv.com
Mark Starr
Maybe yes, maybe no. But he did make some "fashionably anti-Semitic
remarks" in French high society. On the other hand, he was (as was
Georges Sand) long a close friend of Jewish pianist/composer Charles
Valentin Alkan. The answer, it might seem, is that he was a complex
personality.
Regards,
Mark Starr
Man Alive
Unfortunately, I'm not a Chopin scholar, but this topic is so dear to me
that I can't resist posting. I believe that imputation of homosexuality
(or bisexuality, at least) to Chopin has come from a combination of
factors.
Chopin had an intense and lifelong friendship with another Pole named Tytus
Wojciechowski, to whom he dedicated his Opus 2 Variations. His teenage
letters to Tytus, as well as later correspondence to him (right up through
the year of Chopin's death), are reproduced in the book "Chopin's Letters"
(published by Dover).
By present-day standards at least, the language is quite florid and
apparently homoerotic. There are numerous references to exchanging kisses
and embraces, and it seems fairly obvious that their relationship was
definitely romantic, if not sexual. Predictably, apologist biographers --
attempting to "defend" Chopin's reputation -- have contended that such was
the style of the era and denied that it implies anything about Chopin's
sexual orientation.
There are some other, less convincing elements (clichés, actually) that
have probably led to an interpretation of ambiguous sexuality. Chopin was
physically frail and delicate in appearance. His relationship with George
Sand -- i.e., between an effete younger man and an older woman with a
frankly masculine persona -- is suggestive of confusion to some.
Finally, some would argue that music itself can reveal a certain "gay
sensibility" in an esthetic sense. This claim has, after all, been made
with respect to Tschaikowsky, Schubert and others. I absolutely do feel
that Chopin's music supports this assertion, though I can't really explain
why rationally. I certainly don't consider it evidence one way or another.
Steven in NYC ... whose love for Chopin knows no bounds!
Russell W. Miller <r...@miller.mv.com> wrote in article
<E0JEs...@mv.mv.com>...
Valerie Langfield
In article <01bbcde1$44ac5160$46012399@srotto>, Man Alive
<stev...@earthlink.net> writes
>Finally, some would argue that music itself can reveal a certain "gay
>sensibility" in an esthetic sense. This claim has, after all, been made
>with respect to Tschaikowsky, Schubert and others.
heard similar things said, by for example Keller on Britten); but I
would very much like to know if you could tell us who has made these
claims. I am researching into a minor English composer who was
homosexual, at a time when this was bad news if you were found out; and
am keen to learn more about what elements in a composer's music might
indicate such a disposition.
--
Valerie Langfield
http://www.minuet.demon.co.uk/admusic.htm
Music with Meaning -
neat PC program that plays music while you read all about it!
av...@aol.com
In article <xCiE3cA$6lhy...@minuet.demon.co.uk>, Valerie Langfield
<a...@minuet.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Subject: Re: Was Chopin gay?
no, as in negative.
avik-gms
av...@aol.com
MARK ADKINS
In a previous article, stev...@earthlink.net ("Man Alive") says:
>Chopin had an intense and lifelong friendship with another Pole named Tytus
>Wojciechowski, to whom he dedicated his Opus 2 Variations. His teenage
>letters to Tytus, as well as later correspondence to him (right up through
>the year of Chopin's death), are reproduced in the book "Chopin's Letters"
>(published by Dover).
>
>By present-day standards at least, the language is quite florid and
>apparently homoerotic. There are numerous references to exchanging kisses
>and embraces, and it seems fairly obvious that their relationship was
>definitely romantic, if not sexual. Predictably, apologist biographers --
>attempting to "defend" Chopin's reputation -- have contended that such was
>the style of the era and denied that it implies anything about Chopin's
>sexual orientation.
Was it the style of the day? And can you give us some examples (in
context, please) of this "apparently homoerotic" language? Do you
consider the European tradition of men kissing one another upon the
cheek and embracing upon meeting to be homoerotic? If Englishmen
of a previous era closed letters to one another "ever your most
obedient servant" is this evidence for a bondage fetish? Were the
indulgences of emotional expression during the Romantic era manifestations
of latent tendencies? What about lace collars, frilly clothes, and long
hair? What about effete manners? Maybe the whole of the European
aristocrisy (and those who moved in their circles) in earlier periods
were flaming queens? Come to think of it, Van Dyke beards were
pretty popular back then too. Maybe you're on to something...
Let's concentrate on this, since Chopin's physical frailty, etc.,
the supposedly "masculine" personality of the female novelist George
Sand with whom he had a passionate love affair (is it "masculine" to use
a male nom de plume in order to circumvent sexist bias in the 19th
century literary world, or to be a feminist?), etc., clearly do not
provide evidence of homosexuality.
Doubtless more than one great writer, artist, or musician I admire
was homosexual, but I have yet to see evidence in Chopin's case beyond
wishful thinking on the part of those who would prefer it that way.
--
Mark Adkins (eme...@aztec.asu.edu)
MARK ADKINS
Hey, I just remembered something. You know, Mozart wore makeup and
a wig. Yeah, and flashy, extravagantly effeminant clothing which
would put Liberace to shame. I hear this pajama boy also was a
giddy giggler. And from pictorial depictions, I judge that he
probably couldn't have bench pressed very much. A regular 99 pound
weakling. And his music was pretty florid too. And he surrounded
himself with other mincing, prancing pretty boys. Well, that's
evidence enough for me: Mozart was gay.
--
Mark Adkins (eme...@aztec.asu.edu)
dtri...@bway.net
I assume that this is a display of humor.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
dft
Neil Tingley
><stev...@earthlink.net> writes
>>Finally, some would argue that music itself can reveal a certain "gay
>>sensibility" in an esthetic sense. This claim has, after all, been made
>>with respect to Tschaikowsky, Schubert and others.
>This is most interesting, and I would not challenge what you say (I have
>heard similar things said, by for example Keller on Britten); but I
>would very much like to know if you could tell us who has made these
>claims. I am researching into a minor English composer who was
>homosexual, at a time when this was bad news if you were found out; and
>am keen to learn more about what elements in a composer's music might
>indicate such a disposition.
>
Britten ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Tingley Furtwaengler FAQ from r.m.c.r contributers at:
ne...@music.demon.co.uk http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/music/ & links to
London, UK G.H Gould and others "more about me" menu.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valerie Langfield
In article <RPXCDRAkSkiyEwi$@music.demon.co.uk>, Neil Tingley
<ne...@music.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <xCiE3cA$6lhy...@minuet.demon.co.uk>, Valerie Langfield
><a...@minuet.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In article <01bbcde1$44ac5160$46012399@srotto>, Man Alive
>><stev...@earthlink.net> writes
>>>Finally, some would argue that music itself can reveal a certain "gay
>>>sensibility" in an esthetic sense. This claim has, after all, been made
>>>with respect to Tschaikowsky, Schubert and others.
>>This is most interesting, and I would not challenge what you say (I have
>>heard similar things said, by for example Keller on Britten); but I
>>would very much like to know if you could tell us who has made these
>>claims. I am researching into a minor English composer who was
>>homosexual, at a time when this was bad news if you were found out; and
>>am keen to learn more about what elements in a composer's music might
>>indicate such a disposition.
>>
>who Phillip Hesletine?
>
>Britten ?
I'm reluctant to say who, just yet...sorry...please bear with me! (But
it's not Heseltine or Britten.)
So, please can anyone give some thoughts or pointers, on how a
composer's music might indicate that he was homosexual? I'm not
disputing that this is the case; I'd just be really glad to understand
more.
--
Valerie Langfield
Stephen P. Guthrie
>So, please can anyone give some thoughts or pointers, on how a
>composer's music might indicate that he was homosexual? I'm not
>disputing that this is the case; I'd just be really glad to understand
What I would like to understand, is why is it classical composers among
artists of all genres that come in for so much
XXX was gay, and
XXX was a NAZI
type accusations?
On other groups, for example rec.arts.books, I don't see such a fixation.
OK, occasionally Knut Hamson (the Norwegian nobel prize winner who
cooperated with the Nazi backed government) occasionally gets mentioned,
but nothing like here.
And why does this seem to cause more controversy with composers than with
other artists? The recent spate of classical CDs devoted to gay composers
(Out Classics, etc) provoked some outcry, but I don't think anyone would
be surprised to see a volume of short fiction by gay writers.
Why is this?
Perhaps because in music, it's less easy to detect indications of political
convictions or sexual orientation (at least in instrumental music), than in
say literature or visual art, where such themes may be dealt with explicitly.
And when it's all out in the open, there's not so much need for guessing.
Do, say, architects have to undergo a continual reevaluation of their lives
like composers seem to (I've never looked at an architecture group)? I can't
imagine how anyone would claim that a particular building clearly reveals
this architect's sexual orientation (except maybe if he designed something
like the castle from the Little Mermaid film, even then phallic symbols in
architectural structures wouldn't need to be sexual in reference, power
would be another symbolism).
With respect to the Nazi allegations, is it just because Germany/Austria
were such a center of the musical world and any prominent personality in
these countries who didn't flee or clearly stand against the regime gets
labelled as a sympathizer? On the other hand Germany would not be considered
as a world leader in literature during the pre-war period (with some
exceptions e.g. Thomas Mann), so authors in general don't get so much
talked about; and anyway a writer's political convictions are likely to
be well established.
Or is it just that composers in general are much more likely to be gay
and Nazi sympathizers than other artists? Or is is that this newsgroup
in particular is full of a bunch of jerks with nothing better to do?
jennifer tobey
How can you tell by listening to his works whether or not he was? i.e.
what aspects particularly of his music lead you to believe that he was
not?
MARK ADKINS
In a previous article, a...@minuet.demon.co.uk (Valerie Langfield) says:
>So, please can anyone give some thoughts or pointers, on how a
>composer's music might indicate that he was homosexual? I'm not
>disputing that this is the case; I'd just be really glad to understand
>more.
>
>--
>Valerie Langfield
>
There aren't any. I would think gays would be the first to object to
this sort of idiotic stereotyping.
--
Mark Adkins (eme...@aztec.asu.edu)
Neil Tingley
In article <V2tNKHAK...@minuet.demon.co.uk>, Valerie Langfield
<a...@minuet.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <RPXCDRAkSkiyEwi$@music.demon.co.uk>, Neil Tingley
><ne...@music.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In article <xCiE3cA$6lhy...@minuet.demon.co.uk>, Valerie Langfield
>><a...@minuet.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>In article <01bbcde1$44ac5160$46012399@srotto>, Man Alive
>>><stev...@earthlink.net> writes
>>>>Finally, some would argue that music itself can reveal a certain "gay
>>>>sensibility" in an esthetic sense. This claim has, after all, been made
>>>>with respect to Tschaikowsky, Schubert and others.
>
>>>This is most interesting, and I would not challenge what you say (I have
>>>heard similar things said, by for example Keller on Britten); but I
>>>would very much like to know if you could tell us who has made these
>>>claims. I am researching into a minor English composer who was
>>>homosexual, at a time when this was bad news if you were found out; and
>>>am keen to learn more about what elements in a composer's music might
>>>indicate such a disposition.
>>>
>>who Phillip Hesletine?
>>
>>Britten ?
>I'm reluctant to say who, just yet...sorry...please bear with me! (But
>it's not Heseltine or Britten.)
>
>composer's music might indicate that he was homosexual? I'm not
>disputing that this is the case; I'd just be really glad to understand
>more.
>
You'd be better doing a search @ www.dejanews.com and reading the
zillions of articles we've had posted here on that subject !
Neil
Neil Tingley
In article <328C9E...@uic.edu>, jennifer tobey <jto...@uic.edu>
writes
>How can you tell by listening to his works whether or not he was? i.e.
>what aspects particularly of his music lead you to believe that he was
>not?
~You can't. Its all spurious psycho-babble nonsense.
Valerie Langfield
In article <yjhKoQA5...@music.demon.co.uk>, Neil Tingley
<ne...@music.demon.co.uk> writes
>>composer's music might indicate that he was homosexual? I'm not
>>disputing that this is the case; I'd just be really glad to understand
>>more.
>>
>No <with a smile>
>
>You'd be better doing a search @ www.dejanews.com and reading the
>zillions of articles we've had posted here on that subject !
Oops, sorry! :-)
But I asked here because I've been on this newsgroup for around a year
now, and have never seen an answer for a specific question such as mine.
--
Valerie Langfield
Rizzo
In article <0byVxIA2...@minuet.demon.co.uk>,
Valerie Langfield <a...@minuet.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <56k475$p...@news.asu.edu>, MARK ADKINS
><eme...@aztec.asu.edu> writes>I'm sorry you think I'm stereotyping. IMHO, it's perhaps not
>unreasonable to suppose that one's music is affected by the kind of
>person one is (in general; not just sexual inclinations). YMMV. But
>all I'm seeking is this: I have heard it said - in earlier messages in
>this thread as well as elsewhere - that it is possible to detect from a
>composer's music, that that composer is homosexual. I just wondered
>what elements in the music might show this.
What you are looking for is "extra-musical" ideas. The only way someone
can "hear" these elements is if the composer stated somewhere that such an
extra-musical connotation can be read.
I believe somewhere Tchaikovsky wrote that in the 5th symphony, there is a
struggle with XXX, which gets resolved at the 4th movement. Now,
biographers know that Tchaikovsky struggled with his homosexuality. One
possibility this XXX is is his feelings over his homosexuality. Which
means that he comes to a resolution over his feelings in the 4th movement.
On the other hand, it could simply be nothing more than a Beethoven 5th
like stuggle, without any extra-musical connotations. Tchaikovsky never
came out and stated exactly what XXX is, so all of this is speculation.
The only way a listener can "discover" if a composer included any such
feelings of sexuality into the music is if the composer points it out.
>--
>Valerie Langfield
--
-- Joseph Rizzo
"Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." --Irving
Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929.
KH
MARK ADKINS <eme...@aztec.asu.edu> wrote in article
<569eh4$p...@news.asu.edu>...
--clip
> If Englishmen
> of a previous era closed letters to one another "ever your most
> obedient servant" is this evidence for a bondage fetish?
--clip
What a concept! Anybody want to pick this up and run with it?
--Ken H
Valerie Langfield
In article <56k475$p...@news.asu.edu>, MARK ADKINS
<eme...@aztec.asu.edu> writes
>
>In a previous article, a...@minuet.demon.co.uk (Valerie Langfield) says:
>
>>composer's music might indicate that he was homosexual? I'm not
>>disputing that this is the case; I'd just be really glad to understand
>>more.
>
>this sort of idiotic stereotyping.
unreasonable to suppose that one's music is affected by the kind of
person one is (in general; not just sexual inclinations). YMMV. But
all I'm seeking is this: I have heard it said - in earlier messages in
this thread as well as elsewhere - that it is possible to detect from a
composer's music, that that composer is homosexual. I just wondered
what elements in the music might show this.
Valerie Langfield
MARK ADKINS
In a previous article, a...@minuet.demon.co.uk (Valerie Langfield) says:
>In article <56k475$p...@news.asu.edu>, MARK ADKINS
><eme...@aztec.asu.edu> writes
>>
>>In a previous article, a...@minuet.demon.co.uk (Valerie Langfield) says:
>>
>>>So, please can anyone give some thoughts or pointers, on how a
>>>composer's music might indicate that he was homosexual? I'm not
>>>disputing that this is the case; I'd just be really glad to understand
>>>more.
>>
>>There aren't any. I would think gays would be the first to object to
>>this sort of idiotic stereotyping.
>
>I'm sorry you think I'm stereotyping. IMHO, it's perhaps not
>unreasonable to suppose that one's music is affected by the kind of
>person one is (in general; not just sexual inclinations).
It's not unreasonable to suppose that one's music is affected
by the kind of person one is, but it isn't reasonable to assume that
every personal attribute will affect one's music. Should blond haired
people compose one type of music and brown haired people another?
Conversely, it isn't reasonable to assume that any musical element
is inherently "gay". Both gays and straights may be passionate,
aloof, minimalist, rococo, prefer major keys, prefer minor keys, etc.,
or all of the above, according to personal taste and mood. If some form
of musical expression appealed to gays and not straights or vice-versa,
then one would expect to find the audience for that composer to be
primarily gay or straight. I don't know of a single classical composer
for whom this is true. If there is one, it's a social convention
established by some particular gay subculture.
It's certainly true that the kind of person one is, not to mention
one's experiences and associations, can influence one's personal
interpretation of music. People may also choose to like or dislike
music based upon their understanding of the personality or attributes
of the composer. Because these factors of interpretation vary from
person to person (regardless of sexual orientation), one cannot
necessarily assume that if two people like a given piece or style of
music that they like it for the same reasons or view it in the same
Phil Cope
Valerie Langfield wrote:
>
> >In article <V2tNKHAK...@minuet.demon.co.uk>, Valerie Langfield
> ><a...@minuet.demon.co.uk> writes
> >>composer's music might indicate that he was homosexual?
> But I asked here because I've been on this newsgroup for around a year
> now, and have never seen an answer for a specific question such as mine.
> --
> Valerie Langfield
Well many people have in the past posted questions that imply that
the composer has encoded some 'message' in a piece of music. Many
other people (such as myself) have tried to dispute this or portray
it as a restricting way of looking at music. In a way this is a
different slant on the 'definitive' argument, since the idea of
music as an encoded message does imply a definitive performance in
which the code is completely 'cracked' and the "composers true
meaning" exposed (Haa Haa Haa).
Some people suggested that Tchaikovskys 5th (or 6th) symphony was
better appreciated (by them) if they knew he was gay.
We also discussed Bach's use of encoding to generate themes although
the suggestion that this was intended to be "messages" was limited to
the fact that this (apparently) renders the music "mathematical".
(Haa Haa Haa).
As to a specific answer to your question, IMHO there is no way to
tell from a piece of music that a composer was gay, or female, or
French, etc etc.
You might concievably work out that Britten had a relationship with
Peter Pears by considering the number of works he produced for and
dedicated to him, but it seems pretty flimsy evidence without
corroboration to me.
Phil Cope
--
All opinions expressed in this message are purely personal and do not
reflect the opinions or policies of Smallworldwide
Ronald Onerheim
> >I'm sorry you think I'm stereotyping. IMHO, it's perhaps not
> >unreasonable to suppose that one's music is affected by the kind of
> >person one is (in general; not just sexual inclinations).
>
> It's not unreasonable to suppose that one's music is affected
> by the kind of person one is, but it isn't reasonable to assume that
> every personal attribute will affect one's music. Should blond haired
> people compose one type of music and brown haired people another?
(snip)
> Mark Adkins (eme...@aztec.asu.edu)
>
>>>>
Mark, I don't think one can equate being gay with whether or not one
has blond hair or other "atributes". I think the point here is that being
gay is a sexual orientation, not a fetish. It has to do with the soul, and with
love. These are hardly frivolous. Given that the societies in which composers
have had to live, have virtually never been accepting of homosexuals, gay
composers have had to suffer great torments related to their sexuality.
This appears to be what drove Tchaikowsky to suicide. Therefore, to
choose not to know whether or not a composer was gay, is to chose
not to know whether he (or she) may\have been subject to great turmoil,
and perhaps despair related to their sexuality: one of the most fundamental
human issues of existence.
We listen to the human struggle in Beethoven's music as he wrestles with, and eventually
comes to some terms with his deafness. Would it not be important to hear whether a
great struggle might also be at play in another composer's work?
The fact that homosexuality is the love that "dare not speak it's name" it becomes
an enterprise of reading between the lines to suggest which composers might have
been gay. It may never be possible to establish with certainty, the sexuality of
some composers, but it should be allowed to consider the possibility.
Ron
Ronald Onerheim
Joseph Rizzo
In article <56rf2h$1...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>, Ronald Onerheim
<oner...@PO-Box.McGill.CA> wrote: > > >We listen to the human struggle
>in Beethoven's music as he wrestles with, and eventually >comes to some
>terms with his deafness. Would it not be important to hear whether a
>great struggle might also be at play in another composer's work? > >
I don't hear Beethoven wrestling with his deafness in any of his works.
Sure, you could say that the 5th symphony is that piece, but I think that
is putting a very restrictive interpretation on a great piece that I don't
think Beethoven meant to put on it. Not to mention, the 6th, 7th, 8th and
9th symphonies show none of this.
>Ron
MARK ADKINS
In a previous article, oner...@PO-Box.McGill.CA (Ronald Onerheim) says:
>
>We listen to the human struggle in Beethoven's music as he wrestles with,
>and eventually comes to some terms with his deafness. Would it not be
>important to hear whether a great struggle might also be at play in another
>composer's work?
>
>The fact that homosexuality is the love that "dare not speak it's name" it
>becomes an enterprise of reading between the lines to suggest which
>composers might have been gay. It may never be possible to establish with
>certainty, the sexuality of some composers, but it should be allowed to
>consider the possibility.
Ron,
Go back and read what I said about music having personal meanings for
people depending upon their personal experiences, associations, mood,
and so forth. This applies to both composers and listeners. If a
composer wrote music containing elements one might characterize as
"struggle," that could express any number of personal events in the life
of the composer, or it might be an aesthetic element expressing nothing
specific at all. The point is that, neither "struggle" nor any other
musical element is inherently "gay" nor does it permit one to draw
conclusions about the sexual orientation of the composer.
Speculations about the personal meaning of musical compositions on
the basis of established biographical information are another thing
altogether. The most substantive will rely upon explicit statements
by the composer. In Beethoven's case, the fact that he struggled
with deafness should not be taken as evidence that any "struggle"
element in his music is a reference to this. We all struggle with
a variety of personal difficulties, and Beethoven was no different.
It is furthermore a mistake to assume that any musical element has
a personal correlate. Music is an act of aesthetic creation and not
necessarily a form of psychotherapy. This is particularly important
to remember when dealing with something as broad as "struggle"
within the context of music. Musical tension, with or without
resolution, is a basic structural element which should not be
associated with some personal experience of the composer without
sound evidence of this association. It can be found in many
of Beethoven's pieces written before he even knew he had a serious
hearing problem.
Personally, I do not understand why some people feel compelled to
associate a given piece of music with some personal meaning in the
life of its composer, instead of creating their own meanings based
upon their own listening and personal experiences. Beethoven did
not write his music for an audience struggling with deafness, and
it is safe to assume that such an artist intended to express much
broader themes in his music. The same thing applies to other
composers with respect to sexual orientation. I abhor this kind of
petty reductionism, whereby artistic works and their creators are
reduced to some simple symbol. Music is an aesthetic experience, and
should be appreciated as such.
--
Mark Adkins (eme...@aztec.asu.edu)
David Bluestone
> The fact that homosexuality is the love that "dare not speak it's
> name"
It isn't: it's the love that "dare not speak its name".
David
Lionel Tacchini
Stephen P. Guthrie wrote:
some very intelligent stuff that got me confused, so I have to ask,
hoping for a clear answer : was Chopin a nazi or was he gay ?
Or was he both ?
(sorry, I won't do it again ...)
Roger Langen
jl...@MCS.COM (Joseph Rizzo) writes:
>In article <56rf2h$1...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>, Ronald Onerheim
><oner...@PO-Box.McGill.CA> wrote: > > >We listen to the human struggle
>>in Beethoven's music as he wrestles with, and eventually >comes to some
>>terms with his deafness. Would it not be important to hear whether a
>>great struggle might also be at play in another composer's work? > >
>I don't hear Beethoven wrestling with his deafness in any of his works.
>Sure, you could say that the 5th symphony is that piece, but I think that
>is putting a very restrictive interpretation on a great piece that I don't
>think Beethoven meant to put on it. Not to mention, the 6th, 7th, 8th and
>9th symphonies show none of this.
>>Ron
>>
>--
>-- Joseph Rizzo
The man had to be wrestling with his deafness. That is not to say he wrote
music expressivly depicting that struggle.
But, you're a composer, you go deaf. What could be worse? He was a genius,
he managed. (by the time he wrote his 5th piano concerto, he was so deaf, he
couldn't give the premiere of it; he couldn't even hear the applause of the
audience after the premiere of his 9th symphony.)
That has to show in his music.
(Spend your life composing on the beach, have a surf or two and you won't
write music like Beethoven's - Saint-Saens maybe...)
Joseph Rizzo
In article <32930...@news.rz.uni-passau.de>,
Roger Langen <lan...@fmi.uni-passau.de> wrote:
>
>The man had to be wrestling with his deafness. That is not to say he wrote
>music expressivly depicting that struggle.
I know that deafness had a major impact upon Beethoven. All you need to
do is read the Heiligenstadt Testament to see that Beethoven was very much
affected by his affliction.
>But, you're a composer, you go deaf. What could be worse? He was a genius,
>he managed. (by the time he wrote his 5th piano concerto, he was so deaf, he
>couldn't give the premiere of it; he couldn't even hear the applause of the
>audience after the premiere of his 9th symphony.)
Yes, I do know these tidbits.
>That has to show in his music.
But where? I don't know where to find these references. Please enlighten
me and cite some examples.
Lionel Tacchini
Ok, I'll try to be serious this time ...
Stephen P. Guthrie wrote:
>
> >So, please can anyone give some thoughts or pointers, on how a
> >composer's music might indicate that he was homosexual? I'm not
> >disputing that this is the case; I'd just be really glad to understand
>
> What I would like to understand, is why is it classical composers among
> artists of all genres that come in for so much
> XXX was gay, and
> XXX was a NAZI
> type accusations?
>
> On other groups, for example rec.arts.books, I don't see such a fixation.
> OK, occasionally Knut Hamson (the Norwegian nobel prize winner who
> cooperated with the Nazi backed government) occasionally gets mentioned,
> but nothing like here.
>
> And why does this seem to cause more controversy with composers than with
> other artists? The recent spate of classical CDs devoted to gay composers
> (Out Classics, etc) provoked some outcry, but I don't think anyone would
> be surprised to see a volume of short fiction by gay writers.
>
> Why is this?
> Perhaps because in music, it's less easy to detect indications of political
> convictions or sexual orientation (at least in instrumental music), than in
> say literature or visual art, where such themes may be dealt with explicitly.
I think you have a point here. Another one could be that people take music
more to heart than other art forms. The abstraction of instrumental music
leads people to more intimacy than they would have with a book.
After all, part of music's appreciation is very much related to how well it
fits the listener's personality (how do you transform something abstract into
something that moves you if not through your own personality ?) and there is
probably a certain amount of self-identification with the music he/she loves.
From the music to the composer, the step is easily taken.
As a result, anything concerning a composer has a stronger psychological
impact than it would have concerning a writer.
> Or is is that this newsgroup
> in particular is full of a bunch of jerks with nothing better to do?
Let's ask them. Any jerks around with nothing better to do ? Please take
5 seconds and contribute to this thread by adding "jerk" in the subject line.
Thanks.
Lionel Tacchini.
James C.S. Liu
>In article <32930...@news.rz.uni-passau.de>,
>Roger Langen <lan...@fmi.uni-passau.de> wrote:
>>
>>The man had to be wrestling with his deafness. That is not to say he wrote
>>music expressivly depicting that struggle.
>>But, you're a composer, you go deaf. What could be worse? He was a genius,
>>he managed. (by the time he wrote his 5th piano concerto, he was so deaf, he
>>couldn't give the premiere of it; he couldn't even hear the applause of the
>>audience after the premiere of his 9th symphony.)
>>That has to show in his music.
On 20 Nov 1996 09:46:50 -0600, jl...@MCS.COM (Joseph Rizzo) asked:
>But where? I don't know where to find these references. Please enlighten
>me and cite some examples.
As far as the emotional efect of going deaf is concerned, there is
one piece that I've heard suggested as being a musical embodiment over
his reactions to going deaf. It's the slow movement to the Piano
Sonata Op. 10/3, and I'm more or less convinced by the argument,
though he certainly wrote other music before and after this which have
an eerie mix of anger, sadness, and resignation. That's the only one
I can think of OTTOMH which might be directly tied to his physical
illness (apart from the Heiliger Dankgesang of the Op. 132 string
quartet, which ties to his varying states of health in his last
years).
Someone did publish a paper a few years ago in which they performed
a frequency analysis of selected Beethoven works from various periods
in his lifetime, and demonstrated subtle changes in the tonal palette
that Beethoven used over the course of his career. Whether these
changes reflected a physical result of his deafness or changes in his
style of composition (or whether the first altered the second) is not
as clear. I can try to dig up the reference, if you're really
interested.
--
/James C.S. Liu "Make it idiot-proof and someone
jame...@yale.edu will make a better idiot."
New Haven, Connecticut -- Anonymous
My opinions have nothing to do with my employer!
Mike Coldewey
> >and eventually comes to some terms with his deafness. Would it not be
> >important to hear whether a great struggle might also be at play in another
> >composer's work?
> >
Well put. A couple of points ...
1. No-one yet has responded with any objective criteria that would
signal that a composer was gay. I'd be interested in that. Otherwise the
discussion never departs from opinion. Point to a characteristic in
Chopin's music that denotes this, one way or another. Point to a
characteristic in Tchaikovsky's music that denotes this. Point to a
characteristic in Beethoven's music that shows his struggle with
deafness directly.
2. This tendency to "associate a given piece of music with some personal
meaning in the life of its composer" is a tendency of bad (and some
good) Hollywood films. Last year was a discussion of the movie "Immortal
Beloved", which played this up a lot. Let's not even bring up "Amadeus".
This is not to say that a composer doesn't write about and is influenced
by his life - of course not. And I would hope that no-one really
believes that sexual orientation is as trivial as hair color. But does
anyone really believe that Chopin or Beethoven or Handel or Bach or
Liszt or Mahler wrote music in a certain way - that we can hear and
objectively identify - influenced by their sexual orientation? Because,
then, doesn't that door swing both ways? Can we hear "straight-ness" in
Liszt and Beethoven's works? What does it sound like? Where can I look
up or reference the esthetics, compositional techniques, orchestration,
use of pedal/counterpoint, etc. and check it against a list of
"gay/straight" characteristics?
I'm not suggesting that an inner struggle over sexual orientation
couldn't influence a composer's music. But so can an inner struggle over
anything: religious, a chronic ailment, mental illness, a lost love, the
death of a child - all examples from famous composer's lives. (Match
'em up - the answer is left as an exercise for the student <grin>).
Schumann wrote a piece in Carnaval, I believe, called "Chopin" - an
excellent pastiche of Chopin's style. How did he do this if he wasn't
gay and Chopin was?
(Of course that's an absurd argument. But it's kind of a reductio ad
absurdum that illustrates how subjective the whole discussion is.)
Bottom line is the lines mentioned above that need to be read between.
What and where are they and what objective criteria can be used so that
people can agree on this?
3. Finally, I remember reading somewhere that the phrase "the love that
dares not speak its name", used either about or by Oscar Wilde, was not
about homosexuality, but about pederasty. Anybody got any reference
about this? ("Reference" != "Opinion").
Mike
--
Joseph Rizzo
In article <J8WXaVAa...@baram.demon.co.uk>,
Leroy Curtis <Le...@baram.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <56sru0$h...@Jupiter.Mcs.Net>, Joseph Rizzo <jl...@MCS.COM>
>writes
>I often think that the hero of Beethoven's Eroica is Beethoven himself,
>and the final triumph in the last movement is his own.
Even though he wrote it with Napolean in mind?
> Likewise the
>optimism and joy in the 9th after the desolation of the 1st movement is
>Beethoven's own persona.
Tsk. I don't think Beethoven 9th symphony represents his own triumph.
Beethoven is celebrating humanity, and professing something higher. I
think the 9th symphony is expressing a little bit more depth than
Strauss's "A Hero's Life."
Furthermore, how does the 2nd and 3rd movement fit into this scheme? What
is the scheme: Desolation, Dance!, Peaceful Bliss, CELEBRATE!!!! Hardly
someone wrestling with fate! :)
>My 0.02p
>
>Regards
>--
>Leroy Curtis
Leroy Curtis
>>in Beethoven's music as he wrestles with, and eventually >comes to some
>>terms with his deafness. Would it not be important to hear whether a
>>great struggle might also be at play in another composer's work? > >
>
>Sure, you could say that the 5th symphony is that piece, but I think that
>is putting a very restrictive interpretation on a great piece that I don't
>think Beethoven meant to put on it. Not to mention, the 6th, 7th, 8th and
>9th symphonies show none of this.
>
>
optimism and joy in the 9th after the desolation of the 1st movement is
Beethoven's own persona.
My 0.02p
Regards
--
Leroy Curtis
Lionel Tacchini
MARK ADKINS wrote:
>
> In a previous article, a...@minuet.demon.co.uk (Valerie Langfield) says:
>
> >So, please can anyone give some thoughts or pointers, on how a
> >composer's music might indicate that he was homosexual? I'm not
> >disputing that this is the case; I'd just be really glad to understand
> >
> >--
> >Valerie Langfield
> >
>
> There aren't any. I would think gays would be the first to object to
> this sort of idiotic stereotyping.
> Mark Adkins (eme...@aztec.asu.edu)
Up to now, the only explanation I came across that really made sense
is that having to hide one's own sexual inclination from a society
that strongly disapproved of it would have a non negligeable influence
on personality, hence on the music.
As to try and find a supposedly "gay feel" to it, we might just as
well try to hear Beethoven's deafness in his works.
We might hear that he suffered and struggled with something in his life,
but I don't think his music has a "deaf feel" to it that would point
out the source of this struggle in any clear way (although some might
come to the idea thanks to some "period/authentic" recordings of
the symphonies, but let that pass ;-)).
Then we also have the problem of music being closely related to the
inner feelings of its author, which is not always true.
Didn't Mahler write his most dreadful, cruel and tragic work (the 6th
symphony) in a time of happiness ?
Lionel Tacchini.
Len Fehskens
On 20 Nov 96 14:03:02 GMT, Roger Langen at lan...@fmi.uni-passau.de wrote
>But, you're a composer, you go deaf. What could be worse? He was a genius,
>he managed. (by the time he wrote his 5th piano concerto, he was so deaf, he
>couldn't give the premiere of it; he couldn't even hear the applause of the
>audience after the premiere of his 9th symphony.)
>That has to show in his music.
Then it should be straightforward for you to show us precisely how it shows,
right?
len.
Phil Cope
Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> Then we also have the problem of music being closely related to the
> inner feelings of its author, which is not always true.
> Didn't Mahler write his most dreadful, cruel and tragic work (the 6th
> symphony) in a time of happiness ?
I have, in the past, quoted Antony Hopkins (a musicologist - not the
actor ! ) who also refutes the "inner feelings expressed" idea of
musical composition. He suggests that it is easier to see composition
as a compensatory process thus the melancholy composer will write
happy sounding tunes and vice versa. My limited experience of
composition suggests this to be true(ish) for me.
The other point is that large scale works may well draw on themes
written over a long period of time. What are we to make of a theme
written in a slough of despondancy but selected for inclusion in a
work when the composer was joyful ?
>
> Lionel Tacchini.
Valerie Langfield
In article <32930D...@asset-intertech.com>, Mike Coldewey
<mcol...@asset-intertech.com> writes
Since I asked my original question, many have posted very thought-
provking essays, which I for one have found fascinating - thanks to all.
All I can contribute is this:
>
>3. Finally, I remember reading somewhere that the phrase "the love that
>dares not speak its name", used either about or by Oscar Wilde, was not
>about homosexuality, but about pederasty. Anybody got any reference
>about this? ("Reference" != "Opinion").
In Richard Ellmann's substantial biography of Wilde (Hamish Hamilton
1987), he mentions Lord Douglas' poem 'The Two Loves' which contains the
line 'I am the love that dare not speak its name'. He suggests however
that Douglas did actually speak about it a great deal. There was also a
slightly earlier poem by Douglas, 'De Profundis', which seems to be
about loving someone, but who, the writer is unable or unwilling to say.
It is also about the mixture of revealing and hiding of homosexuality,
as shown in 'The Picture of Dorian Gray'; this is further explored in
'The Two Loves'.
--
Valerie Langfield
David Brooks
Mark Adkins argues cogently and persuasively against importing the details
of a composer's personal life into the experience of his music. But I stop
on his last sentence:
>Music is an aesthetic experience, and
>should be appreciated as such.
For me, understanding a composer's personal circumstances, and making
reasonable inferences about his or her reaction to the world, changes the
aesthetic experience -- often for the better. Your mileage may, of course,
vary.
--
David Brooks, Manager, Quality Engineering dbr...@x.org
X Consortium <URL:http://www.x.org/people/dbrooks/>
Commit planned giving and daily acts of compassion.
David Brooks
fehs...@pcbuoa.enet.dec.com (Len Fehskens) writes:
>>But, you're a composer, you go deaf. What could be worse? He was a genius,
>>he managed. (by the time he wrote his 5th piano concerto, he was so deaf, he
>>couldn't give the premiere of it; he couldn't even hear the applause of the
>>audience after the premiere of his 9th symphony.)
>>That has to show in his music.
>
>Then it should be straightforward for you to show us precisely how it shows,
>right?
How about all those shrill piccolo solos (5th Symphony, 9th, Egmont...)?
Only kidding. Only slightly.
August Helmbright
Lionel Tacchini <l...@anacad.de> wrote in article
<3292F2...@anacad.de>...
> Stephen P. Guthrie wrote:
>
> some very intelligent stuff that got me confused, so I have to ask,
> hoping for a clear answer : was Chopin a nazi or was he gay ?
> Or was he both ?
>
> (sorry, I won't do it again ...)
On this subject, pehaps we could start a "Was Ernst Roehm a musician?"
thread. :-)
Russell W. Miller
Mike Coldewey wrote:
(snip)
> 3. Finally, I remember reading somewhere that the phrase "the love that
> dares not speak its name", used either about or by Oscar Wilde, was not
> about homosexuality, but about pederasty. Anybody got any reference
> about this? ("Reference" != "Opinion").
>
> Mike
> --
_The Trials of Oscar Wilde_ contains this quotation in context. If
memory serves, the quotation is from Lord Alfred Douglas. As it is part
of a poem, the meaning of this reference is more a matter of
interpretation than of objective fact, but I read it as referring to
homosexuality. BTW, I believe the term "pederasty" means male
homosexuality; it is not to be confused with "pedophilia" (sexual
attraction to children).
Russell W. Miller
r...@miller.mv.com
Leroy Curtis
In article <570hg5$b...@Jupiter.Mcs.Net>, Joseph Rizzo <jl...@MCS.COM>
writes
>>I often think that the hero of Beethoven's Eroica is Beethoven himself,
>>and the final triumph in the last movement is his own.
>
>Even though he wrote it with Napolean in mind?
Yes.
>
>> Likewise the
>>optimism and joy in the 9th after the desolation of the 1st movement is
>>Beethoven's own persona.
>
>Tsk. I don't think Beethoven 9th symphony represents his own triumph.
>Beethoven is celebrating humanity, and professing something higher. I
>think the 9th symphony is expressing a little bit more depth than
>Strauss's "A Hero's Life."
>
>Furthermore, how does the 2nd and 3rd movement fit into this scheme? What
>is the scheme: Desolation, Dance!, Peaceful Bliss, CELEBRATE!!!! Hardly
>someone wrestling with fate! :)
>
I don't disagree with you, but could he not be celebrating his own
humanity?
Regards
--
Leroy Curtis
Lionel Tacchini
Valerie Langfield wrote:
>
> I have heard it said - in earlier messages in
> this thread as well as elsewhere - that it is possible to detect from a
> composer's music, that that composer is homosexual. I just wondered
> what elements in the music might show this.
You cannot "detect" anything for sure. Music, as a work of art, is not
necessarily a reflection of its author's personality. It maybe and
it may not be.
It works better the other way around : knowing something about the composer
may help you understand his creation but going back from the creation
to the creator is a lot more hazardous.
Think of Mozart's incapability of running his budget compared to the
marvelous structural balance of his music. He was just as wayward in
life as ordered and careful in his music.
Beethoven's legendary bluntness is in contradiction with the tremendous
love he wished to express ("I would embrace the whole world with my
music").
After the premiere of Mahler's 6th, a friend told him something like
"I cannot understand how such a good man can express such cruelty".
Lionel Tacchini.
Neil Tingley
In article <dZj$hEAoQO...@minuet.demon.co.uk>, Valerie Langfield
<a...@minuet.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <32930D...@asset-intertech.com>, Mike Coldewey
><mcol...@asset-intertech.com> writes
>
>Since I asked my original question, many have posted very thought-
>provking essays, which I for one have found fascinating - thanks to all.
>
>All I can contribute is this:
>>
>>dares not speak its name", used either about or by Oscar Wilde, was not
>>about homosexuality, but about pederasty. Anybody got any reference
>>about this? ("Reference" != "Opinion").
>
>1987), he mentions Lord Douglas' poem 'The Two Loves' which contains the
>line 'I am the love that dare not speak its name'. He suggests however
>that Douglas did actually speak about it a great deal. There was also a
>slightly earlier poem by Douglas, 'De Profundis', which seems to be
>about loving someone, but who, the writer is unable or unwilling to say.
>It is also about the mixture of revealing and hiding of homosexuality,
>as shown in 'The Picture of Dorian Gray'; this is further explored in
>'The Two Loves'.
>
internment in Reading Gaol. There is zero debate about this - it's a
famous letter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Tingley Furtwaengler FAQ from r.m.c.r contributers at:
ne...@music.demon.co.uk http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/music/ & links to
London, UK G.H Gould and others "more about me" menu.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Bluestone
> I know that deafness had a major impact upon Beethoven. All you
> need to
> do is read the Heiligenstadt Testament to see that Beethoven was
> very much affected by his affliction.
It also shows that Beethoven was very much afflicted by his affection.
David
> >But, you're a composer, you go deaf. What could be worse? He was a
> genius,
> >he managed. (by the time he wrote his 5th piano concerto, he was
> so deaf, he
> >couldn't give the premiere of it; he couldn't even hear the
> applause of the
> >audience after the premiere of his 9th symphony.)
>
> Yes, I do know these tidbits.
>
> >That has to show in his music.
>
> But where? I don't know where to find these references. Please
> enlighten
> me and cite some examples.
>
>
> --
> -- Joseph Rizzo
>
> "Storks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau."
Joseph Rizzo
In article <bJ2DXBAe...@baram.demon.co.uk>,
Leroy Curtis <Le...@baram.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <570hg5$b...@Jupiter.Mcs.Net>, Joseph Rizzo <jl...@MCS.COM>
>writes
>>In article <J8WXaVAa...@baram.demon.co.uk>,
>>Leroy Curtis <Le...@baram.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Likewise the
>>>optimism and joy in the 9th after the desolation of the 1st movement is
>>>Beethoven's own persona.
>>
>>Tsk. I don't think Beethoven 9th symphony represents his own triumph.
>>Beethoven is celebrating humanity, and professing something higher. I
>>think the 9th symphony is expressing a little bit more depth than
>>Strauss's "A Hero's Life."
>>
>>Furthermore, how does the 2nd and 3rd movement fit into this scheme? What
>>is the scheme: Desolation, Dance!, Peaceful Bliss, CELEBRATE!!!! Hardly
>>someone wrestling with fate! :)
>>
>I don't disagree with you, but could he not be celebrating his own
>humanity?
His message is inclusive. It does include him, although it does not
celebrate _his_ humanity. He celebrates humanity, which he is a member.
>
>Regards
>--
>Leroy Curtis
--
-- Joseph Rizzo
"Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." --Irving
Michael A, Abelson
David Bluestone wrote:
>
> > The fact that homosexuality is the love that "dare not speak it's
> > name"
>
Apparently it is now the love that won't shut up.
Roland van Gaalen - Amsterdam
Statements such as "Mr. Abelson appears to be a person who won't shut
up" are insulting. Speculation about the sexual or affectional
orientation of composers - including any non-authentic interpretation
- is within the scope of this newsgroup.
Roland van Gaalen - Amsterdam
Peter H. Granzeau
>>Apparently it is now the love that won't shut up
>Statements such as "Mr. Abelson appears to be a person who won't shut
>up" are insulting. Speculation about the sexual or affectional
>orientation of composers - including any non-authentic interpretation
>- is within the scope of this newsgroup.
I figure a lot of people who post in this newsgroup need to be
insulted. Maybe even horsewhipped in public...
But if Chopin was gay, he sure spent a lot of time acting as if he
wasn't, did he not? Or was the George Sand thing all smoke and
mirrors?
Leroy Curtis
In article <575pjp$j...@Mercury.mcs.net>, Joseph Rizzo <jl...@MCS.COM>
writes
>In article <bJ2DXBAe...@baram.demon.co.uk>,
>Leroy Curtis <Le...@baram.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <570hg5$b...@Jupiter.Mcs.Net>, Joseph Rizzo <jl...@MCS.COM>
>>writes
>>>In article <J8WXaVAa...@baram.demon.co.uk>,
>>>Leroy Curtis <Le...@baram.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Likewise the
>>>>optimism and joy in the 9th after the desolation of the 1st movement is
>>>>Beethoven's own persona.
>>>
>>>Tsk. I don't think Beethoven 9th symphony represents his own triumph.
>>>Beethoven is celebrating humanity, and professing something higher. I
>>>think the 9th symphony is expressing a little bit more depth than
>>>Strauss's "A Hero's Life."
>>>
>>>Furthermore, how does the 2nd and 3rd movement fit into this scheme? What
>>>is the scheme: Desolation, Dance!, Peaceful Bliss, CELEBRATE!!!! Hardly
>>>someone wrestling with fate! :)
>>>
>>I don't disagree with you, but could he not be celebrating his own
>>humanity?
>
>
>His message is inclusive. It does include him, although it does not
>celebrate _his_ humanity. He celebrates humanity, which he is a member.
>
same if he had not been deaf? Surely a composer's circumstances and
feelings must colour what he writes?
Regards
--
Leroy Curtis
Joseph Rizzo
In article <sRBOhIAA...@baram.demon.co.uk>,
Unfortunately (fortunately?) history is not a labratory science, so we
don't know what will be the outcome if we changed a variable. Although, I
will say that his music will be different, if he had the ability to hear
the music and edit it accordingly.
Emmanuel Rochard
Joseph Rizzo wrote:
>
> In article <32930...@news.rz.uni-passau.de>,
> Roger Langen <lan...@fmi.uni-passau.de> wrote:
> >
> >The man had to be wrestling with his deafness. That is not to say he wrote
> >music expressivly depicting that struggle.
>
> do is read the Heiligenstadt Testament to see that Beethoven was very much
> affected by his affliction.
>
> >he managed. (by the time he wrote his 5th piano concerto, he was so deaf, he
> >couldn't give the premiere of it; he couldn't even hear the applause of the
> >audience after the premiere of his 9th symphony.)
>
> Yes, I do know these tidbits.
>
> >That has to show in his music.
>
> But where? I don't know where to find these references. Please enlighten
> me and cite some examples.
Just think about the "Great Fugue" - many anti-Beethoven critics (and
even admirers) have considered Beethoven's genius had been betrayed by
his deafness in some of his "late" works.
Valerie Langfield
In article <PpylaMAu...@music.demon.co.uk>, Neil Tingley
<ne...@music.demon.co.uk> writes
>>1987), he mentions Lord Douglas' poem 'The Two Loves' which contains the
>>line 'I am the love that dare not speak its name'. He suggests however
>>that Douglas did actually speak about it a great deal. There was also a
>>slightly earlier poem by Douglas, 'De Profundis', which seems to be
>>about loving someone, but who, the writer is unable or unwilling to say.
>>
>internment in Reading Gaol. There is zero debate about this - it's a
>famous letter.
by Douglas, of the same name; no doubt someone will correct me if I
have misunderstood my sources.
--
Valerie Langfield
Bryan Ho
Emmanuel Rochard (emmanuel...@hol.fr) wrote:
: Joseph Rizzo wrote:
: >
: > In article <32930...@news.rz.uni-passau.de>,
: > Roger Langen <lan...@fmi.uni-passau.de> wrote:
: > >
: > >The man had to be wrestling with his deafness. That is not to say he wrote
: > >music expressivly depicting that struggle.
: >
: > I know that deafness had a major impact upon Beethoven. All you need to
: > do is read the Heiligenstadt Testament to see that Beethoven was very much
: > affected by his affliction.
: >
: > >But, you're a composer, you go deaf. What could be worse? He was a genius,
: > >he managed. (by the time he wrote his 5th piano concerto, he was so deaf, he
: > >couldn't give the premiere of it; he couldn't even hear the applause of the
: > >audience after the premiere of his 9th symphony.)
: >
: > Yes, I do know these tidbits.
: >
: > >That has to show in his music.
: >
: > But where? I don't know where to find these references. Please enlighten
: > me and cite some examples.
I read somewhere that as Beethoven was growing deaf, he used more
of the lower registers in his piano works which may have been easily for
him to to have heard or felt the sounds from the piano. If this were true
it would probably have some impact on his composing.
I've also heard some interesting opinions that Beethoven's
deafness may have actually been beneficial to his composing process since
he wouldn't be as distracted and would have been encapsulated from other
sounds and hear only the music in his head as he was composing. I
personally don't buy this theory but I would think that his deafness
contributed to his unique, constantly evolving style.
Bryan
MARK ADKINS
In a previous article, b...@emerald.tufts.edu (Bryan Ho) says:
> I read somewhere that as Beethoven was growing deaf, he used more
>of the lower registers in his piano works which may have been easily for
>him to to have heard or felt the sounds from the piano. If this were true
>it would probably have some impact on his composing.
I believe that expanded use of registers over time reflected changes
in the design of pianos (i.e., more keys were added). Compare for
example Beethoven's 1st piano concerto to his 3rd.
--
Mark Adkins (eme...@aztec.asu.edu)
Ronald Onerheim
> jl...@MCS.COM (Joseph Rizzo) writes:
> In article <56rf2h$1...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>, Ronald Onerheim
> <oner...@PO-Box.McGill.CA> wrote: > > >We listen to the human struggle
> >in Beethoven's music as he wrestles with, and eventually >comes to some
> >terms with his deafness. Would it not be important to hear whether a
> >great struggle might also be at play in another composer's work? > >
>
> I don't hear Beethoven wrestling with his deafness in any of his works.
> Sure, you could say that the 5th symphony is that piece, but I think that
> is putting a very restrictive interpretation on a great piece that I don't
> think Beethoven meant to put on it. Not to mention, the 6th, 7th, 8th and
> 9th symphonies show none of this.
> -- Joseph Rizzo
I don't think one need search for concrete musical references to become
convinced of the influence of Beethoven's deafness on his
creativity.
The first obvious effect that the hearing loss had was on his career as a
concert pianist. He was a formidable pianist by all accounts. He had to
abandon playing in public. There are actually many complaints written at
this time that Beethoven hadn't given up performances soon enough, with
accounts of disastrous performances. His own piano was
hopelessly out of tune, with broken strings, but he played it
anyway. He often put a stick between his teeth, and buttressed it on
the piano, conducting sound to his head.
His hearing loss meant that he then dedicated all his time to composing.
Beethoven's compositions have been divided into three periods roughly
corresponding to the stages of his deafness. The first period was the least
idiosyncratic, and predated his deafness. The second period corresponded
to the time when he struggled mightily against his cruel fate and
developed the irascible personality characteristics for which he was famous.
The final period, when he was completely deaf, was a period of great genius
where he ventured well beyond the realm of conventional musical form.
AS THE PHYSICAL HEARING DECREASED, THE MUSICAL HEARING
ADVANCED.
The fact that someone can be deaf and still compose masterpieces is the
stuff of super-humans. We all know this about Beethoven from the time
of our childhood hero-stories. I am less impressed today with the idea that
a composer is deaf, in terms of the actual mechanics of composition.
Any little stabs I made at composition consisted of trying out various things
on the piano. But that was related to my limitations, and I now realize that
most good composers do compose "in their heads".
Hector Berlioz wrote: "When I consider the appalling number of miserable
platitudes to which the piano has given birth which would never have seen
the light had their authors been limited to pen and paper, I feel grateful to
the happy chance that forced me to compose freely and in silence;
this has delivered me from the tyranny of the fingers, so dangerous to thought,
and form and fascination which ordinary sonorities always exercise on a
composer, to a greater or lesser degree."
However we cannot underestimate the frustration Beethoven had in being
cut off from the aural world...his world. As his hearing failed, his compositions,
inspired as they might be in his internal sound-world, became increasingly
distorted and defamed in his own ears. Finally he lived the supreme dissatisfaction
of not hearing them at all.
His deafness brought out all the disagreeable aspects of his character.
He was irrascible, stubborn, impolite, intolerant.
Beethoven defended himself against allegations of being a misanthrope in
his famous "Heiligen-Stadter Testament": O you men, who think or say I
am malevolent, stubborn or misanthropic, how greatly do you wrong me -
you do no know the secret reason for my behaviour - consider
that for six years I have been suffering from an incurable condition...
I am deaf - oh how would it be possible to admit the deficiency of a sense
I ought to possess to a more perfect degree than anybody else...I must live
like an outcast; when I approach a gathering I become fearful of
revealing my condition...What a dejection when somebody next to me
heard a flute and i did not hear anything, or when somebody heard the
shepherd singing and I could not hear even that - such incidents made me
desperate, I was not far from putting an end to my life. It was only Art,
my art that restrained me- oh, I felt unable to leave this world before I
had created what I felt had been assigned to me; and so I endured this
miserable life - really miserable. Patience must be my guide from now on.
I have resolved, for good, I hope, to endure until theunyielding Parcae
decide to break the thread...To be forced to becom a philosopher at
the age of twenty-eight is not easy - least of all for an artist"
This mighty struggle against his fate is what defines Beethoven's
second period, after the onset of his deafness. His final period is
defined by the very philosophical profundity that Beethoven
laments. It is unlikely he would have reached these exalted spiritual planes,
if it had NOT been for his deafness.
The sound-world serves as a frame of reference to a composer.
And the hearing composer not only hears his own works, but the
works of others. However, the frame can also become a
boundary beyond which one may not imagine to venture. Beethoven's
deafness, as tragic as it was, freed him from the conventional framework,
and from the influences of other composers (whether good or bad).
From here he travelled uncharted territories totally contained within his
own individuality and imagination.
In fact some of his compositions were so imaginative and avant-garde that
they were dismissed as ravings of a deteriorating mind. His final string quartets
contain musical language that became comprehensible only more than half
a century later, when the rest of the world caught up to his invention.
Of course, there is no way to prove any of this "scientifically". But I think to
refuse to acknowledge that much of this is true, is to be deliberately obtuse.
Ron
Joseph Rizzo
In article <57cm1t$c...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>,
Ronald Onerheim <oner...@PO-Box.McGill.CA> wrote:
>
>
>I don't think one need search for concrete musical references to become
>convinced of the influence of Beethoven's deafness on his
>creativity.
That is not the question. This assertion is clearly true. The question
is whether or not Beethoven ingrained in his music his struggle over his
deafness. This is whether or not there is a programmitic element to any
of the music, where this extra musical drama was being played out.
Roland van Gaalen
On 25 Nov 1996 17:46:37 GMT, Ronald Onerheim
<oner...@PO-Box.McGill.CA> wrote:
>.......
>I don't think one need search for concrete musical references to become
>convinced of the influence of Beethoven's deafness on his
>creativity.
> .......
>Of course, there is no way to prove any of this "scientifically". But I think to
>refuse to acknowledge that much of this is true, is to be deliberately obtuse.
Well said ( as long as we are not talking about particular
interpretations). Those anti-romantics who insist on musicological
rigor are missing the point. As usual.
Ronald Onerheim
> Go back and read what I said about music having personal meanings for
> people depending upon their personal experiences, associations, mood,
> and so forth. This applies to both composers and listeners. If a
> composer wrote music containing elements one might characterize as
> "struggle," that could express any number of personal events in the life
> of the composer, or it might be an aesthetic element expressing nothing
> specific at all. The point is that, neither "struggle" nor any other
> musical element is inherently "gay" nor does it permit one to draw
> conclusions about the sexual orientation of the composer.
I can't agree more, hence the whole endeavour to understand a composer.
> Speculations about the personal meaning of musical compositions on
> the basis of established biographical information are another thing
> altogether. The most substantive will rely upon explicit statements
> by the composer. In Beethoven's case, the fact that he struggled
> with deafness should not be taken as evidence that any "struggle"
> element in his music is a reference to this. We all struggle with
> a variety of personal difficulties, and Beethoven was no different.
--
> Mark Adkins (eme...@aztec.asu.edu)
I posted the following under "Was Chopin Gay" , but realize now it is more
appropriate to post it here:
I don't think one need search for concrete musical references to become
convinced of the influence of Beethoven's deafness on his
creativity.
The first obvious effect that the hearing loss had was on his career as a
Of course, there is no way to prove any of this "scientifically". But I think to
refuse to acknowledge that much of this is true, is to be deliberately obtuse.
Ron
Phil Cope
Ronald Onerheim wrote:
[snip]
> I don't think one need search for concrete musical references to become
> convinced of the influence of Beethoven's deafness on his
> creativity.
>
> Of course, there is no way to prove any of this "scientifically". But I think to
> refuse to acknowledge that much of this is true, is to be deliberately obtuse.
>
Hmm, you are inviting trouble aren't you !
Since you can cite no evidence except what *you*, and some others, hear
in
Beethovens music, why should anyone be "deliberately obtuse" if they
don't
hear the same things ? Presumably "any reasonable person" will hear the
music
the same way as you, and relate them to the same life events of the
composer.
That seems, to me, to be very arrogant.
A few specific points,
other composers have been "freed from the conventional framework",
without
requiring deafness in which to do it. In fact, harmony, which one might
expect
deafness to affect most, was probably freed by Schubert, Grieg, Wagner,
Debussy
and Schonberg much more than it was by Beethoven.
The "man ahead of his time"
> In fact some of his compositions were so imaginative and avant-garde that
> they were dismissed as ravings of a deteriorating mind.
I should direct you to the modern music thread where Mr Puharic is
portraying
the music of Schonberg, Webern etc as similiar ravings. Neither of these
needed
deafness to produce music that needs many years exposure before it can
be accepted.
It is impossible to divorce the artist from his context. There was a
change in
perspective among artists that occurred around the time of Beethoven
life, when
a shift occurred from the depiction of external reality to a depiction
of
how the artist perceived an external reality, You could compare painters
George Stubbs with Turner for example.
Some people have related this to the movement of the centre of the
universe from
the Earth to the Sun.
If it helps you accreiciate the music more, then cherish your beliefs,
but do not
try and belittle people who do not share them, unless you *can* prove
them.
> Ron
Larisa Migachyov
Who cares if Chopin was gay or not?
Larisa
Ronald Onerheim
> jl...@MCS.COM (Joseph Rizzo) writes:
> In article <57cm1t$c...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>,
> Ronald Onerheim <oner...@PO-Box.McGill.CA> wrote:
> >
> >
> >convinced of the influence of Beethoven's deafness on his
> >creativity.
>
> is whether or not Beethoven ingrained in his music his struggle over his
> deafness. This is whether or not there is a programmitic element to any
> of the music, where this extra musical drama was being played out.
>
>
> --
> -- Joseph Rizzo
>
I am not sure, Joseph, that I misunderstood the question. This thread started out
discussing whether Chopin was gay, had if he were, what importance it could have.
Many stated that his sexuality was entirely irrelevant. My original post disputed this
by pointing out that homosexuality, in that era (as now) would have been psychologically
traumatic, and most certainly would have affected his creativity, in some way.
The question of whether one can detect something "programatic" is another question
entirely, and I do not suggest one can find programmatic evidence for Beethoven's
deafness, nor for Chopin's sexuality.
BTW, I personally am not suggesting that Chopin was gay. I really don't know that much
about his life to have an opinion on the matter. But I DO feel it is entirely relevant to
discuss it. That knowledge might shed light on our understanding of the composer,
and hence his music. It is also necessary for the emancipation of gays to liberate from
history those gay personages who had to hide their very natures because of discrimination.
Those who feel that an inquiry into the possible homosexuality of a composer sullies
his/her reputation is guilty of homophobia.
Ron
Roger Langen
Ronald Onerheim <oner...@PO-Box.McGill.CA> writes:
>I am not sure, Joseph, that I misunderstood the question. This thread started out
>discussing whether Chopin was gay, had if he were, what importance it could have.
>Many stated that his sexuality was entirely irrelevant. My original post disputed this
>by pointing out that homosexuality, in that era (as now) would have been psychologically
>traumatic, and most certainly would have affected his creativity, in some way.
>The question of whether one can detect something "programatic" is another question
>entirely, and I do not suggest one can find programmatic evidence for Beethoven's
>deafness, nor for Chopin's sexuality.
>BTW, I personally am not suggesting that Chopin was gay. I really don't know that much
>about his life to have an opinion on the matter. But I DO feel it is entirely relevant to
>discuss it. That knowledge might shed light on our understanding of the composer,
>and hence his music. It is also necessary for the emancipation of gays to liberate from
>history those gay personages who had to hide their very natures because of discrimination.
>Those who feel that an inquiry into the possible homosexuality of a composer sullies
>his/her reputation is guilty of homophobia.
>Ron
Yes, yes, yes. OK: No, he was not. (forgive me if I have repeated anyone)
David Brooks
Lots of people, apparently. Have you missed the discussion?
(some care because they want to vilify, stigmatize, and minimize him. Some
care because, gay themselves, they like the idea of solidarity and the hope
it gives them. Some because they are genuinely interested in detecting
positive features of a (possibly nonexistent) gay aesthetic. And some
because they believe insight into a composer's internal life gives them
deeper insight into his music. I may have forgotten some other reasons).
Russell W. Miller
David Brooks wrote:
>
> miga...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Larisa Migachyov) writes:
> >Who cares if Chopin was gay or not?
>
> Lots of people, apparently. Have you missed the discussion?
>
> (some care because they want to vilify, stigmatize, and minimize him. Some
> care because, gay themselves, they like the idea of solidarity and the hope
> it gives them. Some because they are genuinely interested in detecting
> positive features of a (possibly nonexistent) gay aesthetic. And some
> because they believe insight into a composer's internal life gives them
> deeper insight into his music. I may have forgotten some other reasons).
> --
I asked the question originally because the producers of the Out
Classics CD included Chopin, and I had never heard that he was gay. So
for me, it's just a matter of setting the record straight, so to speak.
From what I've learned, I think "maybe" is the right answer.
Russell W. Miller
r...@miller.mv.com
Larisa Migachyov
David Brooks (dbr...@x.org) wrote:
: miga...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Larisa Migachyov) writes:
: >Who cares if Chopin was gay or not?
: Lots of people, apparently. Have you missed the discussion?
: (some care because they want to vilify, stigmatize, and minimize him. Some
: care because, gay themselves, they like the idea of solidarity and the hope
: it gives them. Some because they are genuinely interested in detecting
: positive features of a (possibly nonexistent) gay aesthetic. And some
: because they believe insight into a composer's internal life gives them
: deeper insight into his music. I may have forgotten some other reasons).
I don't know. I am not homophobic, to the degree that the sexual
orientation of a historical figure does not matter to me one bit. I
don't think there is too much proof for the assertion that Chopin was gay
- he did have quite an affair with George Sand, and no evidence of any
kind supports this assertion. The 19th-century world was very good at
detecting homosexuality, and it would not be easy to hide it so
completely as that. The case of Tchaikovsky, or of Oscar Wilde, shows
that when homosexuality existed it was detected. I don't think the
entire question is worthy of discussion, because I don't like discussing
people's private sexual lives. It is not anyone's business what I do in
my bed, or what Chopin did in his. His public output - the music he
produced - is out there for everyone to see. His private life should
not, in my opinion, be invaded. I always cringe when I see books of a
composer's letters - why does someone's being famous give us the right to
read his private correspondence?
Larisa
Adri van Woerkom
>I asked the question originally because the producers of the Out
>Classics CD included Chopin, and I had never heard that he was gay. So
May be "Out Classics" people read or heard about the fact that Chopin
had a relationship with George Sand ;-)
Adri
__
A.B. van Woerkom
ab...@xs4all.nl
Roland van Gaalen
On 2 Dec 1996 04:56:06 GMT, miga...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Larisa
Migachyov) wrote:
> ....... The case of Tchaikovsky, or of Oscar Wilde, shows
>that when homosexuality existed it was detected.
Faulty logic.
> I don't think the
>entire question is worthy of discussion, because I don't like discussing
>people's private sexual lives.
Why is this argument never used when heterosexual feelings are
discussed?
PS I know nothing about Chopin's sexuality. .
Fred Goldrich
In article <32a36671...@news.xs4all.nl>,
Roland van Gaalen <r...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>On 2 Dec 1996 04:56:06 GMT, miga...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Larisa
>Migachyov) wrote:
>
>> ....... The case of Tchaikovsky, or of Oscar Wilde, shows
>>that when homosexuality existed it was detected.
>
>Faulty logic.
>
>> I don't think the
>>entire question is worthy of discussion, because I don't like discussing
>>people's private sexual lives.
>
>Why is this argument never used when heterosexual feelings are
>discussed?
You are certainly correct about the faulty logic.
However, there was also a line in Larisa's post in
which she said,
>> I always cringe when I see books of a
>> composer's letters - why does someone's being famous give us the right
>> to read his private correspondence?
In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I am willing
to take this statement at face value, and it suggests that she is
similarly squeamish about the private lives of heterosexuals.
Now, the question is, why only composers??
-- Fred Goldrich
--
Fred Goldrich
gold...@panix.com
Russell W. Miller
Larisa Migachyov wrote:
(snip)
An odd statement from someone who reads, and posts to, a thread with
this title. You don't like discussing a given topic, therefore nobody
should?
Russell W. Miller
r...@miller.mv.com
JanRosen
May I remind you all that George Sand was a woman? Chopin's love affair
was with a woman -- George Sand. I forgot her real name, but she was a
wealthy French socialite who had a country home and invited many male
composers and artists to her home to perform. She also wrote articles in
one of the influential newspapers. It was considered an honor for a
musician or artist to be mentioned in one of her articles. It gave him
lots of media exposure.
I saw that CD "The Out Collection" also, and I was shocked to see that
Chopin was listed. Just because he had an affair with a woman who used a
man's name does not make him homosexual.
Regards
Jan