World's hardest piano compositions.
Jeff Gower
Chi Yan) wrote:
> Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces of the
Classical and
> Romantic era? This may be a trivial question but your help is much
appreciated
> anyway.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Tang.
I'm not a pianist, but I've heard/read several references to Albeniz's
"Iberia" as being a real toughy. And also the same about Granados' piano
music.
Jeff
Malcolm Saldanha
that it is some of the most difficult music ever written for the
piano. Just try playing Triana, Eritana, or Fete de Seville en
Corpus Christi--these pieces are guaranteed to turn any pianist's
fingers into spagetti. I think it is incredible that Albeniz
was able to actually write down the notes-the score is so complicated.
He must have been a genius.
Malcolm Saldanha
12/22
Mike Coldewey
>
>Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces of the
Classical and
>Romantic era? This may be a trivial question but your help is much
appreciated
>anyway.
all the notes at the right tempo accurately" then in the standard
repertoire, I would list:
Beethoven op. 106
Liszt Don Juan Fantasy, the Transcendental Etudes, and the Paganini
Etudes, as well as all of the operatic transcriptions
Islamey (sp?) by Balikirev
Also, the Waldstein is a bear. Both Chopin sonatas are tough.
In a little later era, Gaspard de la Nuit by Ravel is (and was written to
be) a toughie. Supposedly Ravel made a comment that he wanted to compose
a piece that was more difficult than Islamey. I think he wins.
Not in the standard repertoire, or, if you will, not often recorded, the
works of Alkan are reputed to be pretty difficult
If by "hardest" you mean "musically difficult" or "difficult of
interpretation", all of the late Beethoven sonatas have that rep.
Mike C
Dave Dalle
> Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces of the Classical and
> Romantic era? This may be a trivial question but your help is much appreciated
> anyway.
The Liszt sonata in b minor
Liszt Dante sonata
2nd edition of the Liszt Transcendental etudes
3rd edition of the Liszt transcendental etudes
Dave
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kojisato
SECH...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu (Sam) wrote:
> In article <tangcm.18...@pl.jaring.my>
> tan...@pl.jaring.my (Tang Chi Yan) writes:
>
> >
> >Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces of the
Classical and
> >Romantic era? This may be a trivial question but your help is much
appreciated
> >anyway.
> >
> >Thank you.
> >
> >Tang.
>
> Musically:
>
> Mozart: Rondo in a minor
> Beethoven: Sonata Op. 111
>
> Technically:
>
> Chopin: Etude, Opus 10, #1
> Liszt: Don Juan Fantasy
10 #1 is pretty easy compared to #2. I think Rach 2nd concerto should
be up there. The third is harder to learn, but easier to play. Both
Brahms concertos
would fit under both categories.
K. Attwood
Sam
tan...@pl.jaring.my (Tang Chi Yan) writes:
>
>Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces of the Classical and
>Romantic era? This may be a trivial question but your help is much appreciated
>anyway.
>
>Thank you.
>
>Tang.
Musically:
Mozart: Rondo in a minor
Beethoven: Sonata Op. 111
Technically:
Chopin: Etude, Opus 10, #1
Liszt: Don Juan Fantasy
Terry W. Loar
The Chopin Etudes are up there on the finger-twisting scale.
Also you may want to look at Lizst's Transcendental Etudes.
Thanks,
Terry W. Loar
tl...@netcom.com
Mike Larke
or "Easy" in the title.
In the 'technical' (or should we say, unpianistic?) perhaps the
Schubert "Wanderer Fantasy" deserves honorable mention.
Mike
David J. Wallace
The world's hardest piano piece is always the one you are having
trouble with at the time. Just like it's the world's most beautiful
piece too.
I feel sorry for Mike who believes that the hardest musically are
pieces with "Children" or "Easy." This thinking is exactly why these
pieces never sound like they should.
Mike, learn the notes first, then let them play. Despite what many
teachers say...STOP THINKING!!!! Trust me.
Mike Larke
>al...@ix.netcom.com (Mike Larke ) wrote:
>
>>>Many many many others in both categories.
>>In the 'musical' category, can I add: almost all pieces with
"Children"
>>or "Easy" in the title.
>>In the 'technical' (or should we say, unpianistic?) perhaps the
>>Schubert "Wanderer Fantasy" deserves honorable mention.
>>Mike
>
>I feel sorry for Mike who believes that the hardest musically are
>pieces with "Children" or "Easy." This thinking is exactly why these
>pieces never sound like they should.
>
>Mike, learn the notes first, then let them play. Despite what many
>teachers say...STOP THINKING!!!! Trust me.
homo(u)r. I'm afraid some of these threads (World's most noisy piece;
most difficult; most frightening (!); most romantic; etc.) to me,
invite slight flippancy in the response. I still stand by the
"Wanderer" as one of the world's "most 'awkward'" (Hey, another
category!!)
It is still the rare pianist who does not start out (say) with Mozart
K. 545 at age six, never to return to it (with comfort) until MUCH
later in life. Rather like as adults and our surrounding ourselves with
'things' to help us get through life, we, as pianists often like the
security of legions of notes.
You make a quite valid point though. I once heard a comment by a
musician that the single best Hammerklavier performance he had ever
heard was from a 16 (?) year-old conservatory student who a) did not
run scared from the notes because she was 1000% secure and b) did not
let the 'reputation' of the piece 'get to her' and c) let the slow
movement speak its wonders in uncluttered simplicity.
Mike
Mike Larke
writes:
>In <1747C55E8S...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu>
>SECH...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu (Sam) writes:
>>
>>In article <tangcm.18...@pl.jaring.my>
>>tan...@pl.jaring.my (Tang Chi Yan) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces of the
>Classical and
>>>Romantic era? This may be a trivial question but your help is much
>appreciated
>>>anyway.
>>>
>>>Thank you.
>>>
>>>Tang.
bars 7-10 (approx.) of Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 #3 in G major to be just
about as tough as it gets. If we were all (or the vast majority of us)
truthful, we would have to admit to being forced to be a little over
zealous on the pedal(s) especially sustaining, to navigate through
those thorny measures.
Mike
William Haws
>Chi Yan) wrote:
>
>> Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces of the
>Classical and
>> Romantic era? This may be a trivial question but your help is much
>appreciated
>> anyway.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Tang.
>
>"Iberia" as being a real toughy. And also the same about Granados'
piano
>music.
>Jeff
mind, I think that something called "Islami" (sp?) is supposed to be a
real finger twister. I don't remember who the composer is. My vote
would be for Alkan's (1813-1888) Concerto for Solo Piano published in
1857. This "concerto" consists of three piano etudes (Nos. 8, 9 and
10) that he selected from his 12 etude Op. 39. It is about 50 minutes
of sheer terror. Alkan knew Chopin and was friends with Liszt so you
can tell that parts of the piece were influenced by them as well as
Brahms. It is a lush, romatic composition that is original, melodic
and, well . . . devilishly difficult. I have an LP (1972) with the
late John Ogdon as soloist. He does a magnificient job. I don't know
if anyone else has had the guts to tackle this lately.
Bill Haws
Houston
David J. Wallace
>In <4bfolt$j...@cloner2.ix.netcom.com> al...@ix.netcom.com (Mike Larke )
>writes:
>>
>>In <1747C55E8S...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu>
>>SECH...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu (Sam) writes:
>>>
>>>In article <tangcm.18...@pl.jaring.my>
>>>tan...@pl.jaring.my (Tang Chi Yan) writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces of the
>>Classical and
>>>>Romantic era? This may be a trivial question but your help is much
>>appreciated
>>>>anyway.
>>>>
>>>>Thank you.
>>>>
>>>>Tang.
>Charles Rosen recently noted that he considered
>bars 7-10 (approx.) of Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 #3 in G major to be just
>about as tough as it gets. If we were all (or the vast majority of us)
>truthful, we would have to admit to being forced to be a little over
>zealous on the pedal(s) especially sustaining, to navigate through
>those thorny measures.
>Mike
Has anyone tried the Godovsky re-arrangements of the Chopin's etudes?
I know that we might be inclined to not include them because they
aren't original works. However, since they are based off of ETUDES, I
consider them just as worthy. They're pretty tough. If you think
Chopin Op. 10 #1 is annoying...just give the Godovsky a go.
David
DRLUHTA
Larke ) writes:
>>Many many many others in both categories.
>In the 'musical' category, can I add: almost all pieces with "Children"
>or "Easy" in the title.
That is a proper answer, to a questionable question.
David Bluestone
> supposed to be a real finger twister. I don't remember who the
composer is.
Islamey, by Balakirev.
But what about someone starting a thread called "The World's easiest
piano compositions", for the benefit of crap pianists like me?
David
DRLUHTA
Larke ) writes:
>Charles Rosen recently noted that he considered
>bars 7-10 (approx.) of Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 #3 in G major to be just
>about as tough as it gets
Boy, you are right about this little prelude being a problem. I have
played it for years and almost daily as part of my practice ritual and it
seldom comes out all right. I've been digging that hole for so long, I
don't know if it ever will, but it is part of my routine so I keep abusing
it. Who has a decent fingering for those measures? Or is there any?
Dave L.
David J. Wallace
Have you tried catching the F#'s with the right hand? Just a
suggestion.
Mike Larke
>
>In article <4bhqs0$e...@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, al...@ix.netcom.com
(Mike
>Larke ) writes:
>
>>Charles Rosen recently noted that he considered
>>bars 7-10 (approx.) of Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 #3 in G major to be
just
>>about as tough as it gets
>
>Boy, you are right about this little prelude being a problem. I have
>played it for years and almost daily as part of my practice ritual and
it
>seldom comes out all right. I've been digging that hole for so long,
I
>don't know if it ever will, but it is part of my routine so I keep
abusing
>it. Who has a decent fingering for those measures? Or is there any?
> Dave L.
Sign me up for that fingering too!
Mike
Gordon Myers
of relative background, rather akin to language? For example,
learning English could be considered more difficult an undertaking for
a native Chinese speaker than a native Dutch speaker, because of the
radical dissimilarity at the very foundations of the two languages.
So, couldn't it also be argued that, for example, Debussy's
Etude "Pour le huit doigts", while no walk in the park for even the best
pianists I know, would be manifold times more difficult for someone from
a jazz background? Equally, I don't know any 'classical' players who
can reproduce the more difficult work from McCoy Tyner (not even close,
really).
Sorry if you feel this irrelevant.
Lastly, I've been told that the presto of Ravel's G major Piano Concerto
isn't exactly child's play.
Gordo
Owen Hartnett
("David Bluestone") wrote:
>
>But what about someone starting a thread called "The World's easiest
>piano compositions", for the benefit of crap pianists like me?
No, better for us crap pianists "World's not too difficult piano
compositions that sound much harder than they really are." (Available on
K-TEL records and tapes $19.95 -- only joking)
-Owen
Erica Schulman
says:
>real finger twister. I don't remember who the composer is. My vote
>would be for Alkan's (1813-1888) Concerto for Solo Piano published in
>1857. This "concerto" consists of three piano etudes (Nos. 8, 9 and
>10) that he selected from his 12 etude Op. 39. It is about 50 minutes
>of sheer terror. Alkan knew Chopin and was friends with Liszt so you
>can tell that parts of the piece were influenced by them as well as
>Brahms. It is a lush, romatic composition that is original, melodic
>and, well . . . devilishly difficult. I have an LP (1972) with the
>late John Ogdon as soloist. He does a magnificient job. I don't know
>if anyone else has had the guts to tackle this lately.
Yes -- Marc-Andre Hamelin (Music and Arts) and Jack Gibbons (ASV) and a
few others.
/-------------------------------------------------------------
Erica N. Schulman en...@psuvm.psu.edu
Department of Chemistry http://stm1.chem.psu.edu/
Pennsylvania State University ~ens/EricaSchulman.html
University Park, PA 16802
Dave Dalle
> Ummmm....not to be a spoilsport, but isn't this really a question
> of relative background, rather akin to language? For example,
> learning English could be considered more difficult an undertaking for
> a native Chinese speaker than a native Dutch speaker, because of the
> radical dissimilarity at the very foundations of the two languages.
But piano is essentially just one language, maybe with several dialects,
but still one language. The original post also limited the question to
just classical and Romantic era. Everyone learning the piano may have
different strengths and areas of difficulty, but you can still make
generalizations that the Hammerklavier is a much more difficult piece to
learn and play than any of the Mendelsohn Songs without Words for example.
Aside from the rare exceptional pianist, there are pieces that give all
pianists extreme difficulty.
Bruce Knoll
>Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces of the Classical and
>Romantic era? . . .
This may be pushing the definition of romantic a little, but Faure's
Ballade for Piano and Orchestra, Op. 19 is supposed to have been considered
to have been too difficult to play by Liszt. This little tidbit comes from
the liner notes to an old Columbia recording of the Ballade by Bernstein and
Casadesus. Can anyone verify this?
Bruce Knoll
bwk...@psuvm.psu.edu
DRLUHTA
David!
David Siu
> >
> > > Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces of the
> > Classical and
> > appreciated
> > > anyway.
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Tang.
I was wondering why nobody mentioned Brahms. Brahms is, in my opinion,
the most torturing composer for the piano. See, for example, the first of
his Intermezzi--the one in F sharp minor--if you grant his compositional
technique as unassailable, surely you must admit that those things on the
left hand are not "pianistic." Or that D major scale in thirds in the 2nd
piano conc., third movement. I have see Albeniz's score--the sounds are
written exactly as they should be notated. But to write something so darn
difficult for the sake of musical integrity...! See Sorabji's Opus
Clavisti...I don't know how to spell it.
David Siu
Erica Schulman
(David Siu) says:
>difficult for the sake of musical integrity...! See Sorabji's Opus
>Clavisti...I don't know how to spell it.
OK, I can't resist. I never thought that I would ever use this bit of
information:
Opus Clavicembalisticum
Dave Dalle
> Tang Chi Yan (tan...@pl.jaring.my) wrote:
> : Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces ..
>
> Mentally
> Bach : The art of fuge
I didn't think this was playable on a single piano. I thought two were
needed.
Kehila Amnon
Jerry DeOreo
studied the instrument for 35 years and never found a piece as
emotionally charged and technically demanding as the Rhapsody
Op. 79, No. 1.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Kele Farms of Hawai'i
PO BX 1204 - Pahoa HI 96778-1204
South Puna, Island of Hawai'i, Nation of Hawai'i -> http://hookomo.aloha.net/nation/
+++++++++++++++++++++
Brian R Duncan
>> keh...@libra.math.tau.ac.il (Kehila Amnon) writes:
>> Tang Chi Yan (tan...@pl.jaring.my) wrote:
>> : Can anyone there tell me what is the hardest piano pieces ..
>>
>> Mentally
>> Bach : The art of fuge
>>
>>>>>
>My vote goes to the complete Brahms works for solo piano. I
>studied the instrument for 35 years and never found a piece as
>emotionally charged and technically demanding as the Rhapsody
>Op. 79, No. 1.
>
I would have thought that the works of Franz Liszt would also be in
the running. In particular the Transcendental Studies ( 1837 and 1851
versions ). The Beethoven symphony transcriptions are also horrendous
from a technical point of view.
( b.tw. any other Liszt lovers in this group ? )
Dave Dalle
Count me in!
DRLUHTA
writes:
>Rhapsody
>Op. 79, No. 1.
What is number 2, chopped liver?
No, really, I slaved over #2 some years ago, and thought it pretty
demanding. I have never messed with #1, though I have listened to it
alot.
Dave L.
Bruce Knoll
Dalle) says:
>Brian R Duncan (bri...@xs4all.nl) writes:
>>
>> ( b.tw. any other Liszt lovers in this group ? )
>>
>Count me in!
>Dave
And me! I'm fascinated by all his piano music.
Bruce Knoll
bwi...@psuvm.psu.edu
Kehila Amnon
: >
: > Mentally
: > Bach : The art of fuge
: I didn't think this was playable on a single piano. I thought two were
: needed.
In only one of the fuges Bach wrote specificly that it should be played
by 2 Harpsichords .
--
Matthew H. Fields
And that's an adaptation of a mirror fugue for which he also supplied
a 4-voice one-keyboard version.
DGOO...@argonet.co.uk
> >>
> >Count me in!
> >Dave
>
> And me! I'm fascinated by all his piano music.
In that case, check out the Mephisto Waltzes especially No.1, probably one of
the most difficult of Liszt's piano works. I certainly agree, though, that the
Trancendental Studies are no picnic either. The 1837 versions are not often
played - they are more technically difficult than their decendants but not so
mature musically. Of the 1851 set, Wilde Jagd probably presents the most
challenge technically whilst Harmonies du Soir is IMO the most musically
demanding. I believe that Chasse-Neige is also very hard but I haven't played it
so don't know whether it's more testing than the others.
The most difficult pieces in the world currently, however, have to be by Xenakis
or Ligeti. I recently heard a Ligeti piece that had to be played by a computer.
A human isn't up to the job, although doubtless one will emerge sooner or later
who is. And all that us mortals will be able do is clap at the end {;-j
Dan
--
/=================================/==============================/
/Be not angry that you cannot make/ Daniel Goodger. /
/others as you wish them to be. / DGOO...@argonet.co.uk /
/=================================/==============================/
HERMUS A.J.C.M.
>From: ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Dave Dalle)
>Subject: Re: World's hardest piano compositions.
>Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 16:24:07 GMT
>Brian R Duncan (bri...@xs4all.nl) writes:
>>
>> ( b.tw. any other Liszt lovers in this group ? )
>>
>Count me in!
>Dave
Count me in too! (of course)
Antony
HERMUS A.J.C.M.
>From: bri...@xs4all.nl (Brian R Duncan)
>Subject: Re: World's hardest piano compositions.
I think one of the hardest pieces are the Rachmaninoff piano Concerto's
especially nr. 3.
Extremely difficult Liszt-piece is also Don Giovanni fantasy!
Antony, The Netherlands
Dave Dalle
(DGOO...@argonet.co.uk) writes:
>
> In that case, check out the Mephisto Waltzes especially No.1, probably one of
> the most difficult of Liszt's piano works. I certainly agree, though, that the
> Trancendental Studies are no picnic either. The 1837 versions are not often
> played - they are more technically difficult than their decendants but not so
> mature musically. Of the 1851 set, Wilde Jagd probably presents the most
> challenge technically whilst Harmonies du Soir is IMO the most musically
> demanding. I believe that Chasse-Neige is also very hard but I haven't played it
> so don't know whether it's more testing than the others.
I wouls have thought Mazeppa to be the hardest, though Wilde Jagd is right
up there too.
>
> The most difficult pieces in the world currently, however, have to be by Xenakis
> or Ligeti. I recently heard a Ligeti piece that had to be played by a computer.
> A human isn't up to the job, although doubtless one will emerge sooner or later
> who is. And all that us mortals will be able do is clap at the end {;-j
That doesn't count, you can program into a sequencer 'piano' music that
would be physically impossible to play, like 16-part counterpoint spanning
the entire keyboard, at once.
MoonWolf
A.J.C.M...@kub.nl writes:
>I think one of the hardest pieces are the Rachmaninoff piano Concerto's
>especially nr. 3.
very true, although the hardest I ever tried to play was Rachmaninoff's
Prelude in C-Sharp Minor
----
Bill Phelps e-mail: moon...@usa.net
MoonWolf Creative Productions http://www.usa.net/~moonwolf
PO Box 260184
Highlands Ranch, CO 80163
"...to much for what I do...to little for what I could do..."
--W.A. Mozart
clovis lark
>In article <4c7b55$8...@news.xs4all.nl> bri...@xs4all.nl (Brian R Duncan) writes:
>>From: bri...@xs4all.nl (Brian R Duncan)
>>Subject: Re: World's hardest piano compositions.
>>Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 10:01:54 GMT
>I think one of the hardest pieces are the Rachmaninoff piano Concerto's
>especially nr. 3.
>Extremely difficult Liszt-piece is also Don Giovanni fantasy!
While there is no doubt that the above works are hard, they hardly rank as
standards for difficulty, read on. If you doubt me, pull out the scores
and have a try.
Any concerto by Mozart. Not many notes, but look how much difficulty people
have stringing them together.
Stockhausen KLAVIERSTUECK IX. Try it or watch somebody try it and you'll see.
Balakirev ISLAMEY. Supposedly beyond Balakirev's practicality.
Sorabji OPUS CLAVICEMBALISTICUM. Look at the score! Note the composer's
interdiction against performances unauthorized by himself (what happened
after he died?).
Alban Berg's piano reduction of Schreker's FERNE KLANG. Unplayable by one
person.
Last, any work requiring piano duet. Try syncronizing simultaneous attacks
and you'll agree.
I don't think anything by Liszt or Rachmaninoff competes with this list.
>Antony, The Netherlands
Craig Mirate
<snip> listed a number of works by Mozart, Stockhausen, Balakirev,
Sorabji, Berg, etc.
I agree with Clovis Lark's list. The Mozart are so deceptively easy,
but due to their transparency are extremely difficult to hold together.
Their difficulty is in their simplicity.
We will omit Bach since his works weren't written for piano per se.
Also you can add about 90% of the works by Messaien. If you (not you
Clovis) don't believe me, try sitting down and reading through the Ile
de Feu #1 & 2. Then listen to Chung or Hill perform them up to tempo (I
have an old Japanese LP with someone I don't know performing them and it
blew me away -- I was studying the pieces at the time: made Liszt look
like high school). The Visions de l'Amen for Two Pianos -- when
performed well it is breathtaking (Hill/Frith or P. Serkin/? if you can
find it) -- here is your multiple/simultaneous attack.
Any number of Bartok works.
And while we're on this subject, let's add Beethoven Op. 111 (how many
can hold the second movement together); Schubert D960 (how many really
understand Schubert).
I know there are many other works that fit into the "most difficult"
category. Someone will find something even more difficult.
If anyone is brave enough to try these, enjoy!
Craig
DGOO...@argonet.co.uk
>
> (DGOO...@argonet.co.uk) writes:
>
> > The most difficult pieces in the world currently, however, have to be by
> Xenakis
> > or Ligeti. I recently heard a Ligeti piece that had to be played by a
> computer.
> > A human isn't up to the job, although doubtless one will emerge sooner or
> later
> > who is. And all that us mortals will be able do is clap at the end {;-j
>
> That doesn't count, you can program into a sequencer 'piano' music that
> would be physically impossible to play, like 16-part counterpoint spanning
> the entire keyboard, at once.
I couldn't agree more that music *designed* not to be playable by humans does
not count as there is no point in even attempting to play it. But the piece I
heard _is_ theoretically playable by a human, so it does count. It's just that
*currently* there isn't really a human who can play it up to tempo without
fistfuls of wrong notes. But as pieces get more and more difficult, pianists
must get better and better in order to play them. The limiting factor will
eventually be the instrument itself, not our ability to play it.
BTW I wish I could remember the title of the piece. I may try
in...@sibelius.demon.co.uk as they did the software that performed it.
richard hihn
: >In article <4c7b55$8...@news.xs4all.nl> bri...@xs4all.nl (Brian R Duncan) writes:
: >>From: bri...@xs4all.nl (Brian R Duncan)
: >>Subject: Re: World's hardest piano compositions.
: >>Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 10:01:54 GMT
: >I think one of the hardest pieces are the Rachmaninoff piano Concerto's
: >especially nr. 3.
: >Extremely difficult Liszt-piece is also Don Giovanni fantasy!
Certainly both difficult pieces, but hardly among the most difficult
works, by any standard, technical or musical.
: While there is no doubt that the above works are hard, they hardly rank as
: standards for difficulty, read on. If you doubt me, pull out the scores
: and have a try.
: Any concerto by Mozart. Not many notes, but look how much difficulty people
: have stringing them together.
Of course Mozart is extremely difficult, but in a much different way.
Why do threads of this sort always end up comparing apples and oranges?
: Stockhausen KLAVIERSTUECK IX. Try it or watch somebody try it and you'll see.
Are you sure you mean his IX Klavierstuck? It's not all that
difficult compared to some of his other Klavierstuecke.
: Balakirev ISLAMEY. Supposedly beyond Balakirev's practicality.
I'm not sure what you mean by "beyond Balakirev's practicality."
However, difficult technically as the piece is, again there many more
difficult works.
: Alban Berg's piano reduction of Schreker's FERNE KLANG. Unplayable by one
: person.
I'm sure there are dozens of reductions which would qualify as
"unplayable." But what's the point? Anyone can write "unplayable"
music.
: Last, any work requiring piano duet. Try syncronizing simultaneous attacks
: and you'll agree.
There are many duets playable, even played quite well, by intermediate
or elementary players. The syncronization of simultaneous attacks in
piano duets is done well all the time by countless piano duos.
: I don't think anything by Liszt or Rachmaninoff competes with this list.
There are so many types of difficulties in piano playing, many
depending upon individual pianist's abilities, that it's virtually
impossible to single out "most difficult." But I'm enjoying the
thread anyway!(:))
Dick
Ron Nadel
Ron
Alistair Hinton
Well - BEFORE he died, both Geoffrey Douglas Madge (Netherlands)
and John Ogdon (UK) recorded Opus Clavicembalisticum, and a
substantial number of other Sorabji works have been recorded
since his death. All of these are still available (except the
Madge OC) and are on the Altarus label (not the Madge - that was
on a Dutch label).
For more information about Sorabji, his music and literature,
please contact The Sorabji Archive - tel. +44 1225 852323, fax
+44 1225 852523.
Alistair Hinton
Wink
Prokofiev's 2nd Piano Concerto
Barber's Piano Sonata
Stravinsky's Petrushka transcription for piano
Any of the Liszt transcription for piano of Beethoven's Symphonies
Bartok's transcription of his Concerto for Orchestra
Actually it's fair to say that piano transcriptions of orchestral works
are the most difficult *kind* of piano music to play.
Robb.
Clark Guigle
impossible, though the O'Riley on Nonesuch has made me a believer.
Peter Chang
>especially nr. 3.
version!
>Extremely difficult Liszt-piece is also Don Giovanni fantasy!
Many of Liszt's transcriptions are difficult including the "Valse
Infernale" (Robert the Devil) which requires impeccable octave technique.
Liszt's Spanish Rhapsody and Beethoven Symphony Transcriptions also rank
among his toughest works technically and interpretively.
If you want finger-twisting at its best, try Godowsky's 53 studies based
upon 26 Chopin Etudes. They are fascinating! And what a dense score
to read through!!! No. 47 in G flat major "Badinage" superimposes
Chopin's Op. 10#5 (Black Key) and Op.25 #9 (Butterfly) and poses
challenges to the pianist which the ear cannot know. Or take a look at
No. 22 in C sharp minor: its the Revolutionary etude but you must play it
with the left hand only! Only the fearless dare to tackle the challenges
of Godowsky.
Technically, Godowsky must rank among the hardest.
Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op.23 #9, a double note study is also very
difficult. It can ruin the hand if practiced poorly.
Peter Chang
DGOO...@argonet.co.uk
> In article <internews...@argonet.co.uk> DGOO...@argonet.co.uk writes:
>
> >The most difficult pieces in the world currently, however, have to be
> >by Xenakis or Ligeti.
>
> Glad you call those "pieces" rather than music. They're absolute crap.
> BTW, it's quite trivial to produce difficult to play pieces by sprinkling
> random notes on a sheet of paper.
>
> >I recently heard a Ligeti piece that had to be played by a computer.
> >A human isn't up to the job, although doubtless one will emerge sooner or
> later
> >who is. And all that us mortals will be able do is clap at the end {;-j
>
> Have you considered the possibility that humans might just not find
> these piece(s) interesting enough to be worth performing?
>
It really is very sad that you and some others in this group are missing out on
so much really good music. I'm not saying that it's all good - a lot of it is in
fact as you say "crap". But when you make a totally sweeping generalisation as
above (and you must be generalising because I did not name the works), you
simply show that you do not have a wide enough experience base upon which to
make such a comment.
As a music college graduate, composer and professional pianist in the UK, where
the attitude to modern music is very pro-active, I would say that out of over a
hundred fellow professionals I know and work with regularly, I have found only
two to have a mind that is in the least bit closed to the avant garde and more
than half of them enjoy performing such works. Of audiences, the vast majority
of those unfamiliar to the idiom have expressed pleasant surprise with only a
few people feeling alienated.
I know that your mind is set - that's what having a closed mind means. But try
not effectively making statements like "Xenakis and Ligeti are absolute crap"
when you can figure out (from their fame) that you might be considered by many
to be wrong.
BTW, the Ligeti piece was probably one of the most exhilarating pieces of very
modern piano music I have heard. It was performed at the Royal Academy of Music
during their 1995 Ligeti festival, by an Acorn RISC PC running Sibelius 7
software hooked up to a modified Bosendorfer Imperial grand piano. The festival
culminated with the presentation to Ligeti of an honorary Fellowship of the
Academy. See what I mean?
Dan
PS I am waiting for Sibelius Software to reply with piece title. If anyone's
interested in Ligeti and wants to know, please e-mail.
Dan Koren
>challenge technically
I don't think so. Mazeppa and Feux Follets are way harder. Just
go through a few recorded traversals of the Transcendentals and
count how many have done justice to these two compared to how
many have done justice to Wilde Jagd.
>whilst Harmonies du Soir is IMO the most musically demanding.
I think that honor belongs to Ricordanza. I've only heard one
performance that was satisfactory.
>I believe that Chasse-Neige is also very hard but I haven't
>played it so don't know whether it's more testing than the others.
Depends on the size and stretch of your hands. Chasse-Neige is not that
hard for someone with very large hands, and is well-nigh impossible for
small hands. BTW, I think Chasse-Neige is every bit as difficult to pull
off musically as L'Harmonies du Soir.
>The most difficult pieces in the world currently, however, have to be
>by Xenakis or Ligeti.
Glad you call those "pieces" rather than music. They're absolute crap.
BTW, it's quite trivial to produce difficult to play pieces by sprinkling
random notes on a sheet of paper.
>I recently heard a Ligeti piece that had to be played by a computer.
>A human isn't up to the job, although doubtless one will emerge sooner or later
>who is. And all that us mortals will be able do is clap at the end {;-j
Have you considered the possibility that humans might just not find
these piece(s) interesting enough to be worth performing?
dk
Peter Chang
>>mature musically. Of the 1851 set, Wilde Jagd probably presents the most
>>challenge technically
>
>I don't think so. Mazeppa and Feux Follets are way harder. Just
>go through a few recorded traversals of the Transcendentals and
>count how many have done justice to these two compared to how
>many have done justice to Wilde Jagd.
Transcendental Etudes. However, one read through the etudes and you will
discover that Mazeppa is one of the easiest. The etude requires good
wrist and arm technique but is not hard to learn. Mazeppa is much
easier than it sounds (another example of Liszt creating
electrifying effects that are always more manageable than they look
on the page or sound). It is also one of the most frequently
performed. Wilde Jagd is quite a bit harder than Mazeppa, requiring
split second reflexes and taxes the strength of the hand with tireless
chords.
>>whilst Harmonies du Soir is IMO the most musically demanding.
>
>I think that honor belongs to Ricordanza. I've only heard one
>performance that was satisfactory.
Ahh...but Chasse-Neige is regarded by many Lisztians as the most
musically challenging and greatest of the studies. Busoni said
Chasse-neige is "the noblest example, perhaps, amongst all music of a
poetising nature."
>Depends on the size and stretch of your hands. Chasse-Neige is not that
>hard for someone with very large hands, and is well-nigh impossible for
>small hands. BTW, I think Chasse-Neige is every bit as difficult to pull
>off musically as L'Harmonies du Soir.
Chasse Neige is one of the few etudes that doesn't require hitting a
tenth. The piece is far, far from impossible for small hands. The jumps
and skips may be easier for large hands but are manageable with small
hands as well.
P.Chang
Brian R Duncan
wrote:
>Many of Liszt's transcriptions are difficult including the "Valse
>Infernale" (Robert the Devil) which requires impeccable octave technique.
>Liszt's Spanish Rhapsody and Beethoven Symphony Transcriptions also rank
>among his toughest works technically and interpretively.
>
Agreed. The works I originally quoted were only examples from many
possibilities.
>If you want finger-twisting at its best, try Godowsky's 53 studies based
>upon 26 Chopin Etudes. They are fascinating! And what a dense score
>to read through!!! No. 47 in G flat major "Badinage" superimposes
>Chopin's Op. 10#5 (Black Key) and Op.25 #9 (Butterfly) and poses
>challenges to the pianist which the ear cannot know. Or take a look at
>No. 22 in C sharp minor: its the Revolutionary etude but you must play it
>with the left hand only! Only the fearless dare to tackle the challenges
>of Godowsky.
>
>Technically, Godowsky must rank among the hardest.
>
Sounds interesting ! I must confess that I haven´t come across these
before.
--
Brian Duncan
Arnhem
The Netherlands
--
Brian R Duncan
wrote:
>While there is no doubt that the above works are hard, they hardly rank as
>standards for difficulty, read on. If you doubt me, pull out the scores
>and have a try.
>
>Any concerto by Mozart. Not many notes, but look how much difficulty people
>have stringing them together.
Good point. Music doesn´t have to be overtly virtuosic to be
difficult. Difficulty comes in many shapes and forms.
>Stockhausen KLAVIERSTUECK IX.
>Balakirev ISLAMEY.
etc.
>I don't think anything by Liszt or Rachmaninoff competes with this list.
As I´m not familiar with the works you list I can´t make any comment.
No doubt someone else will be able to. Looks like this thread is
turning out to be educational, at least for me.
Tod Brody
these composers (Xenakis and Ligeti) which *can* be performed effectively
by humans, and which is also not "crap".
Tod Brody
Bruce Knoll
>Dan Koren wrote:
[. . . lots of stuff snipped . . .]
>BTW, the Ligeti piece was probably one of the most exhilarating pieces of very
>modern piano music I have heard. . . .
I can't agree with the assessment that Ligeti is crap, either, although
some of what he wrote I can make no sense of. I'd very much like to hear
his piano music, and can recommend his 1st String Qtet which is very interes-
ting, indeed. It's no more "crap" than many other modern string quartets, and
is very accessible.
Bruce Knoll
bwk...@psuvm.psu.edu
Jordan WOSNICK
think has been mentioned yet... Also "Pictures at an Exhibition".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jordan Wosnick
Universite McGill University e-mail: jor...@cs.mcgill.ca
Montreal, Quebec, Canada web: http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~jordan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wai Poon
>If you want finger-twisting at its best, try Godowsky's 53 studies based
>upon 26 Chopin Etudes. They are fascinating! And what a dense score
>to read through!!! No. 47 in G flat major "Badinage" superimposes
>Chopin's Op. 10#5 (Black Key) and Op.25 #9 (Butterfly) and poses
>challenges to the pianist which the ear cannot know. Or take a look at
>No. 22 in C sharp minor: its the Revolutionary etude but you must play it
>with the left hand only! Only the fearless dare to tackle the challenges
>of Godowsky.
>Technically, Godowsky must rank among the hardest.
In an quite old issue of Piano, Nehaus <?> wrote a review of Godowsky. He
was one of his student and later became a very famous piano teacher. In his
account, Godowsky was a piano whiz technically. However, Nehaus said his
works lacked emotion and musicality. One of his comment on Godowsky's Chopin
transcriptions was that the more he tingered with them, the worst they
are. Nehaus still preferred the originals. He also recalled an account
that Godowsky was teaching one of his pupil his own sonata, and told
his student "you made the sonata more boring that it already was."
Also, it was rumured that Rachmaninoff wanted to take a lesson with
Godowsky, but was objected by his manager because he thought it should
be reverse. Nehaus's view of Godowsky was that he knew a lot of tricks
on the piano, but lacks substance.
The article was quite interesting because as a former student, I thought
Nehaus would have written highly of Godowsky. However, the contrary was
true. I personally have not seen Godowsky's work, just pass on some info.
Wai
Brad4Ellis
simple and famous piece 'sing' properly than to negotiate La Valse or
Mephisto. WTC prelude #1: play it and make it sound fresh and alive,
that's what counts more than the flashiest display of dexterity.
That said , I would say the Chopin Etudes are very tough because of there
combination of technical difficulties and fame, and yet there are so many
radically different approaches to playing them, from Mikuli to Cortot. If
you can make the etudes sound convincing, nothing should stop you from
playing anything in public!!
Brad
clovis lark
>clovis lark (cl...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: In <A.J.C.M.Herm...@kub.nl> A.J.C.M...@kub.nl (HERMUS A.J.C.M.) writes:
>: >In article <4c7b55$8...@news.xs4all.nl> bri...@xs4all.nl (Brian R Duncan) writes:
>: >>From: bri...@xs4all.nl (Brian R Duncan)
>: >>Subject: Re: World's hardest piano compositions.
>: >>Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 10:01:54 GMT
>: >I think one of the hardest pieces are the Rachmaninoff piano Concerto's
>: >especially nr. 3.
>: >Extremely difficult Liszt-piece is also Don Giovanni fantasy!
>Certainly both difficult pieces, but hardly among the most difficult
>works, by any standard, technical or musical.
>: While there is no doubt that the above works are hard, they hardly rank as
>: standards for difficulty, read on. If you doubt me, pull out the scores
>: and have a try.
>: Any concerto by Mozart. Not many notes, but look how much difficulty people
>: have stringing them together.
>Of course Mozart is extremely difficult, but in a much different way.
>Why do threads of this sort always end up comparing apples and oranges?
What's your point. You agree Mozart is difficult and that was what the
original topic addressed. Mozart doesn't allow any leeway for the player.
If they haven't got what it takes, they drown. No fruit will help.
>: Stockhausen KLAVIERSTUECK IX. Try it or watch somebody try it and you'll see.
>Are you sure you mean his IX Klavierstuck? It's not all that
>difficult compared to some of his other Klavierstuecke.
Is it or isn't it difficult?
>: Balakirev ISLAMEY. Supposedly beyond Balakirev's practicality.
>I'm not sure what you mean by "beyond Balakirev's practicality."
>However, difficult technically as the piece is, again there many more
>difficult works.
Name them.
>: Alban Berg's piano reduction of Schreker's FERNE KLANG. Unplayable by one
>: person.
>I'm sure there are dozens of reductions which would qualify as
>"unplayable." But what's the point? Anyone can write "unplayable"
>music.
Again, the criteria is difficult and this particular item is repeatedly singled
out as virtually unplayably difficult.
>: Last, any work requiring piano duet. Try syncronizing simultaneous attacks
>: and you'll agree.
>There are many duets playable, even played quite well, by intermediate
>or elementary players. The syncronization of simultaneous attacks in
>piano duets is done well all the time by countless piano duos.
Not true at all. I pointed out "simultaneous attacks". An example: Les noces
which has four pianos. Try it. Try the Bartok Sonata for 2 pianos and perc.
Have SOMEBODY ELSE listen for ensemble. They'll tell you.
>: I don't think anything by Liszt or Rachmaninoff competes with this list.
>There are so many types of difficulties in piano playing, many
>depending upon individual pianist's abilities, that it's virtually
>impossible to single out "most difficult." But I'm enjoying the
>thread anyway!(:))
No offense, but I stuck to technical difficulties and I stand by each of the
examples. When I write about difficulties, I am not contemplating "salon"
realizations. Instead, I am refering to the ease of realizing performance
level renditions.
>Dick
Tod Brody
: >>
: I don't know many piano compositions, but playing Chopin's minute waltz
: 'a tempo' (ie. in 1 min or less) is supposed to be VERY difficult (in
: most recordings the pianist can only manage about 1/2 speed: about 2
: mins)
: >>
: ??? The waltz you refer to, slangly called the "Minute Wlatz" is
: not to be played in a minute. (Op 64, No 1 I think)
: Hideous idea really.
: Dave L.
This seems like the place to share Nicolas Slonimsky's intriguing
description of this piece in his "Lectionary of Music":
Minute Waltz. A common name for Chopin's Waltz in D-flat major, op.64,
which is supposedly possible to negotiate in about one minute. Omitting
the repeats, the time can be cut to 48 seconds. A modern electronic
synthesizer can reduce the time to a few seconds.
DRLUHTA
Francis Cox
In terms of delivering a complete, full-realized performance, I reckon
Messaien's Vingt Regards is a true pianistic Everest to be climbed.
Personally, I find the music very rewarding, but I am aware that others do
not.
BTW, there was an interesting discussion with a pianist (Donohoe?) on Radio3
recently, who had studied this work with O.M. himself: the pianist used
*much* faster tempi in the very slow movements, e.g. 2x faster than
specified for 1st Regard, and claimed that O.M. sanctioned this tempo. O.M.
was well known to be extremely tolerant of various interpretations, but
this is a remarkable challenge to accepted practice in this piece.
For piano concertos, Bartok's 2nd is a very tough nut to crack, and much
harder than Rachmaninoff's 3rd IMO, principally because the pianistic idiom
is so original and unorthodox, whereas R's is clearly based on traditional
Lisztian patterns. Bartok must have been a very remarkable pianist, and it's
a pity he wasn't recorded more.
--
Francis Cox ............. fc...@octave.demon.co.uk
Dave Dalle
Tod Brody (t...@crl.com) writes:
>
> Minute Waltz. A common name for Chopin's Waltz in D-flat major, op.64,
> which is supposedly possible to negotiate in about one minute. Omitting
> the repeats, the time can be cut to 48 seconds. A modern electronic
> synthesizer can reduce the time to a few seconds.
A modern electronic synthesizer could play the entire oeuvre of Liszt in a
couple of seconds, but it don't sound too good:)
Matthew H. Fields
Olof Lindh
Alkan.
Michael W. Sumbera
(Matthew H. Fields) wrote:
> In article <4dc4aa$t...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> Nathan Eberhardt <eber...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
> >I've never heard it before but I believe the name is "The Well Tuned
> >Piano" or some such thing. I suppose it's not too hard technically
> >or whatever but if I'm not mistaken it's very, very long....
> >Imagine trying to learn it and memorize it....
> >
> >-Nathan
>
> Try looking under J. S. Bach for his work Das Wohltempiertite Klavier.
>
> It's now in Dover Edition (reprint from the Bach-Gesellschaft edition),
> ISBN 0-486-24532-2, with the title translated "The Well-Tempered Clavier".
>
> As a piano major, you should know this music inside-out.
It's true that the WTC is part of the performance canon, but that's not
what Nathan's refering to (I think).
The work I think he's refering to is LaMonte Young's "The Well-Tuned
Piano". The description is right; I'm not even sure if Young considers
the piece finished. It was started in 1964, but has such a substantial
improvisatory feel that it may be one of those perpetual
"works-in-progress" like Boulez's third sonata (I think that's the right
work). It has been recorded, a couple of times I think, and by people
other than Young.
Not my favorite piece, but then neither is the Bach, so...
Michael
--
Michael W. Sumbera sum...@panix.com
Doctoral student, Musicology, CUNY-Graduate School
Ignorance has always been something I excel in. Followed by naivete and pride. -- King Crimson
The bird from the sea,
Not knowing pine from bamboo,
Roosts on anything. -- ??
Dave Dalle
> "Minute" in the title of the waltz means "small", not a length of time.
Is that it? Has it always been a misunderstanding of the word "minute"?
When did it first get that nomiker?
Michelle Dulak
>In article <4dc4aa$t...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
>Nathan Eberhardt <eber...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>>I've never heard it before but I believe the name is "The Well Tuned
>>Piano" or some such thing. I suppose it's not too hard technically
>>or whatever but if I'm not mistaken it's very, very long....
>>Imagine trying to learn it and memorize it....
>Try looking under J. S. Bach for his work Das Wohltempiertite Klavier.
[etc.]
Actually, there is a recent work titled "The Well-Tuned Piano," by
LaMonte Young (if I'm not mistaken). Perhaps that's what Nathan meant.
Even I can hardly believe that he doesn't know the WTC.
Michelle Dulak
Brett Zumsteg
What's the point? Music can be played for any number of reasons
including:
It is interesting to the perform
It fits a particular niche in a recital or concert program
The performer likes the piece
or any number of other reasons
but playing a piece just because it's hard seems to me, at least, an
upside-down way of evaluating what music there is to study, learn and
play.
It reminds me of the time I went to a recital by E. Power Biggs (the
organist) toward the end of his life. His playing wasn't as good as it
had been earlier in life, but the concert which featured Brass and Organ
music was a truly thrilling evening for me. The following day, I asked
one of the other organ majors what he thought of the recital. His
response: He didn't play enough "hard music." I couldn't believe that an
opinion on a recital performance by a near-legendary player would have
been based on the difficulty of the pieces performed.
This tirade is not to say we shouldn't try to play difficult works, only
that we should make sure the music we perform is emotionally and
musically rewarding for both performer and audience.
-
BRETT ZUMSTEG RAU...@prodigy.com
Matthew H. Fields
Nathan Eberhardt <eber...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>I've never heard it before but I believe the name is "The Well Tuned
>Piano" or some such thing. I suppose it's not too hard technically
>or whatever but if I'm not mistaken it's very, very long....
>Imagine trying to learn it and memorize it....
>
Try looking under J. S. Bach for his work Das Wohltempiertite Klavier.
It's now in Dover Edition (reprint from the Bach-Gesellschaft edition),
Johnny Wong
Yes, Minute Waltz is not to be played in a minute. I remember it was
a grade 8 piano exam pieces long time ago, and from the tempo they
suggested, the whole music lasts about 2 minutes.
J. Wong
Ben
> DRLUHTA (drl...@aol.com) wrote:
> : >>
> : I don't know many piano compositions, but playing Chopin's minute waltz
> : 'a tempo' (ie. in 1 min or less) is supposed to be VERY difficult (in
> : most recordings the pianist can only manage about 1/2 speed: about 2
> : mins)
> : >>
> : ??? The waltz you refer to, slangly called the "Minute Wlatz" is
> : not to be played in a minute. (Op 64, No 1 I think)
> : Hideous idea really.
> : Dave L.
>
> This seems like the place to share Nicolas Slonimsky's intriguing
> description of this piece in his "Lectionary of Music":
>
> Minute Waltz. A common name for Chopin's Waltz in D-flat major, op.64,
> which is supposedly possible to negotiate in about one minute. Omitting
> the repeats, the time can be cut to 48 seconds. A modern electronic
> synthesizer can reduce the time to a few seconds.
>
I know the minute waltz (I don't care now whether you ponounce it min-it
or my-newt) is a very fast piece, but reducing the playing time to a few
seconds would make it virtually incomprehensible. Although it's to be
played fast, I thought that the idea of classical music was that you
heard every note and appreciated the beauty of the piece etc.
Disclaimer: All view/opinions etc. are mine and mine only.
They do NOT represent the views/opinions of UWA.
|\ /^ /\ \ Name: Benjamin Norwood
|< >- > \ < Email: bd...@aber.ac.uk
|/ \_ \ \/ URL: http://www.aber.ac.uk/~bdn5
Dave Dalle
> I'm puzzled by the emphasis on finding the "hardest" piece of piano music.
> What's the point? Music can be played for any number of reasons
> including:
>
> It is interesting to the perform
> It fits a particular niche in a recital or concert program
> The performer likes the piece
I find that there is generally a direct correlation between how much I like a
piano piece and how difficult it is to play. I think there is some
grounding in this, the more technique available, the more ideas one is
able to develop in a piece. It is no coincidence that all the greatest
piano and keyboard composers (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt,
Debussy, Bartok etc.) have also been among the greatest pianists (or
keyboardists for Bach). But maybe it would be a neat thread to list all
the great piano pieces that require modest technique, I wonder how many we
could come up with.
Tod Brody
I believe Slonimsky's entry on this piece was meant to point out the
inherent silliness in attempting to attain a certain degree of velocity
for athletic, rather than musical, reasons. That's the way it reads to
me, and the reason I thought to share it with the r.m.c. multitudes.
Tod Brody
Peter Chang
>piano piece and how difficult it is to play. I think there is some
>grounding in this, the more technique available, the more ideas one is
>able to develop in a piece. It is no coincidence that all the greatest
>piano and keyboard composers (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt,
>Debussy, Bartok etc.) have also been among the greatest pianists (or
>keyboardists for Bach). But maybe it would be a neat thread to list all
>the great piano pieces that require modest technique, I wonder how many
The subject heading may not pertain to this post, but is nonetheless a
post dealing with piano.
Modest technique?? TOO MANY TO LIST. And then you have to define
"modest". I define it as intermediate: good,even technique, modest
scales, modest musicianship, modest everything:) I can list a few here by
Romantic Composers:
Brahms:
all Intermezzos (you'll work forever voicing them though)
Rhapsody Op.79 #2
Chopin:
Waltzes (with a few exceptions, but I consider them all intermediate
level)
Scherzo B-flat minor
Ballade A-flat Major
Military Polonaise
Chopin Etude Op.10#12 c minor
Nocturne Op.9#2
Nocturne Op.37#1
Nocturne Op.55#1
many preludes and other etudes also qualify for moderate difficulty
Liszt:
Paganini-Liszt Etudes 1,4,6
Danse Macabre
Liszt Etudes #4 Mazeppa, #6 Vision, #7 Eroica
Consolations
Liebstraums
*I think we should list the COOLEST LOOKING pieces of all time; the most
bravura, most showy, most impressive to non-musicians. And we can also
list the BEST sounding.
Here are my votes:
Ravel Ondine, Scarbo
Debussy Feux d'Artifice
Liszt Sonata
Liszt Spanish Rhapsody
Liszt Transcendental Etude #12 Chasse-neige (this one goes wild)
Feux follets
Liszt Etude #10
La Campanella (the 2nd half is a show-stopper)
Liszt Mephisto Waltz
Liszt Concertos E-flat, A-major
(if you haven't figured it out by now, Liszt was a master of making stuff
look hard, look cool, dazzle)
Chopin Etude Op.10 No.1
Chopin Etude Op.10 No.4
Chopin Etude Op.25 No.12
Chopin Ballades (ALL)
Chopin Scherzo #3
A-flat Polonaise (may not look that great, but is a great combination of
sound+looks)
Prokofiev Sonata #4, last movement
(most Prokofiev sonatas look cool)
Albéniz Iberia (most of it)
Much Rachmaninoff.
I'm sure there are many more that have not popped off the top of my head.
Its time we started a new topic! It seems there is a general concensus
with hardest.
Peter Chang
Alex Jacobowitz
Actually, it might be of interest to know what piece Horowitz
thought was the most difficult. His answer?
Feux follets, by Liszt.
Alex Jacobowitz
richard belcher
: >: >especially nr. 3.
: >: >Extremely difficult Liszt-piece is also Don Giovanni fantasy!
You know I'm beginning to wonder if everybody is missing the point here.
If a
piece is so hard nobody can play it....Then the COMPOSER did a horrible
job. Music is not written in a vacuum if performers dread having to play
something because it's so error prone they tend not to play it.
One of the most beautiful piana pieces and really rather difficult when
it comes down to it "Trois Gymnopides" (sp) not so much because the
technical parts are difficult..but more unless it is played with a
certain feeling it's extremely cheesy.
--
I just knew I should have thought of something that was actually clever
to say, before I erased my old .signature file.
Richard Belcher
will...@netcom.com
Dave Dalle
>
> You know I'm beginning to wonder if everybody is missing the point here.
> If a
> piece is so hard nobody can play it....Then the COMPOSER did a horrible
> job. Music is not written in a vacuum if performers dread having to play
> something because it's so error prone they tend not to play it.
Many extremely difficult piano pieces were played by the composer: Liszt,
Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Bartok, Sorabji etc.
There are many pieces, that have been listed, that are extremely hard to
play, but they are playable, they are not impossible. There are many
pianists who seek out these pieces because of the difficulty (Marc-Andre
Hamelin for example). If it's playable, maybe by only a few, it will be
played, as long as it is good music. And even if it doesn't, there are
some composers who do not compose for others, ie Sorabji, the value of
those compositions that are never meant to be heard is a thorny
philosophical question, but if it makes him happy to compose, so be it.
dgoo...@argonet.co.uk
will...@netcom.com (richard belcher) wrote:
> One of the most beautiful piana pieces and really rather difficult when
> it comes down to it "Trois Gymnopides" (sp) not so much because the
> technical parts are difficult..but more unless it is played with a
> certain feeling it's extremely cheesy.
Any of my grade 4 or even 3 (UK) pupils can play any of the Gymnopides with
profound expressiveness and without sounding the least bit cheesy.
That doesn't mean I don't find the Gymnopides extremely beautiful. It's just
that I don't think they really rank among the world's hardest to pull off.
But this is a good thing as it means that they can be enjoyed by pianists of
all levels.
BTW, I think that Satie's brain must have made its own LSD or something. Just
look at some of his songs. Weird :-)
--
__ _ _ ___ _
| \ ___ _ _|_|__| | / __)__ __ _| |_ __ _ _
| D ) _ | ` | /-_) | ( (__/_ /_ /_` /_`|-_) `_)
|__/\_,_|_|_|_\__|_| \_,_\__\__\_,_\_ |__|_| DGOO...@argonet.co.uk
(__|
... I don't want to grow up, I won't grow up, you can't make me.
Sam Shumka
: DRLUHTA (drl...@aol.com) wrote:
: : >>
: : I don't know many piano compositions, but playing Chopin's minute waltz
: : 'a tempo' (ie. in 1 min or less) is supposed to be VERY difficult (in
: : most recordings the pianist can only manage about 1/2 speed: about 2
: : mins)
: : >>
: : ??? The waltz you refer to, slangly called the "Minute Wlatz" is
: : not to be played in a minute. (Op 64, No 1 I think)
: : Hideous idea really.
: : Dave L.
: This seems like the place to share Nicolas Slonimsky's intriguing
: description of this piece in his "Lectionary of Music":
: Minute Waltz. A common name for Chopin's Waltz in D-flat major, op.64,
: which is supposedly possible to negotiate in about one minute. Omitting
: the repeats, the time can be cut to 48 seconds. A modern electronic
: synthesizer can reduce the time to a few seconds.
I wouldn't rate the romantics as the hardest. The Impressionists came out
with much harder works. Take for example the Gaspard de Nuit by Ravel. The
Minute Waltz can't even compare to the technical difficulty of this piece.
Going into the semi-modern world, look at Prokofieff and the Op. 11 Toccata.
This too, is one of the hardest pieces ever written. Chopin wrote some hard
pieces, but nothing compared to what came along later.
Paul WEHAGE
Dave Dalle
Erica Schulman (EN...@psuvm.psu.edu) writes:
> In article <DLFv9...@freenet.carleton.ca>, ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Dave
> Dalle) says:
>>There are many pieces, that have been listed, that are extremely hard to
>>play, but they are playable, they are not impossible. There are many
>>pianists who seek out these pieces because of the difficulty (Marc-Andre
>>Hamelin for example).
>
He seems to, Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum, Gadowsky's Chopin etudes etc.
> no one has recorded them. Every time I look at the newsgroup, there are
> several threads about the best interpretation of the Beethoven X while
> any living composer is lucky to have even one pianist interpreting
> him...Well, this is wandering off-topic.
Hell, we can go off-topic, when has that been abnormal for this group? I
interpret that last sentence as a slightly negative assessment. I think
it's unfair to get annoyed that there a million pianists playing
Beethoven, when there's very few playing new or obscure pieces. The only
good reason to play any instrument is for your own enjoyment and
satisfaction. How does it affect the individual pianist that there are a
million others playing Beethoven as well? He is not those million others,
and it is very likely that he will receive enormous enjoyment and
satisfaction from palying Beethoven himself. Why play at all, if
everything is already played by other people? Because the pianist and any
musician wants to play them himself. Speaking as a pianist myself, given
time and technique enough, I will get around to all those obscure and new
pieces, but I want to play the pieces I enjoy best first, and like
millions others, that means Beethoven, Chopin, Bach, Mozart, Liszt etc.
Erica Schulman
Dalle) says:
>There are many pieces, that have been listed, that are extremely hard to
>play, but they are playable, they are not impossible. There are many
>pianists who seek out these pieces because of the difficulty (Marc-Andre
>Hamelin for example).
Not a good example, he doesn't. The very existence of this thread,
however, demonstrates the fascination that people have with virtuosic
piano works. I think it is very hard, if a pianist has shown
extraordinary technique, to avoid the pressure to play these
show-stoppers all the time.
Among the pieces that could be considered "great" the easy ones are most
likely to be recorded first. Assuming one doesn't want to put out the
1031st release of a Beethoven sonata, then, that leaves either
contemporary music or older works that are so difficult or obscure that
no one has recorded them. Every time I look at the newsgroup, there are
several threads about the best interpretation of the Beethoven X while
any living composer is lucky to have even one pianist interpreting
him...Well, this is wandering off-topic.
/-------------------------------------------------------------
Erica N. Schulman en...@psuvm.psu.edu
Department of Chemistry http://stm1.chem.psu.edu/
Pennsylvania State University ~ens/EricaSchulman.html
University Park, PA 16802
Dominique Perkins
course that one would want to play all of Liszt...
Erica Schulman
Dalle) says:
>
>Erica Schulman (EN...@psuvm.psu.edu) writes:
>> In article <DLFv9...@freenet.carleton.ca>, ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Dave
>> Dalle) says:
>>>There are many pieces, that have been listed, that are extremely hard to
>>>play, but they are playable, they are not impossible. There are many
>>>pianists who seek out these pieces because of the difficulty (Marc-Andre
>>>Hamelin for example).
>>
>> Not a good example, he doesn't. The very existence of this thread,
>
Well, he's never played OC, and only a few of Godowsky's Etudes...The
real question is, is he playing what he does because he feels a genuine
affinity for the music or just because it's difficult. I think the
former.
>I think
>it's unfair to get annoyed that there a million pianists playing
>Beethoven, when there's very few playing new or obscure pieces. The only
>good reason to play any instrument is for your own enjoyment and
>satisfaction. How does it affect the individual pianist that there are a
>million others playing Beethoven as well? He is not those million others,
>and it is very likely that he will receive enormous enjoyment and
>satisfaction from palying Beethoven himself. Why play at all, if
>everything is already played by other people? Because the pianist and any
>musician wants to play them himself. Speaking as a pianist myself, given
>time and technique enough, I will get around to all those obscure and new
>pieces, but I want to play the pieces I enjoy best first, and like
>millions others, that means Beethoven, Chopin, Bach, Mozart, Liszt etc.
Oh, I agree with what you just said. The last time I sat down read
Messiaen made me wish I hadn't. BUT I can get annoyed that so many
people are *recording* only Beethoven instead of breaking new ground.
As a listener, I'd like more options.
/-------------------------------------------------------------
Erica N. Schulman e...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~schulman/home.html
Erica Schulman
Wehbe) says:
>Did Hamelin record the OC? The only two recordings I am aware of are Ogdon's
>and Douglas-Madge's.
And you are absolutely right. Habermann has also recorded some
selections from it, though not the whole piece.
& Wehbe
Dave Dalle writes:
[about Marc-Andre' Hamelin seeking pieces because they are difficult]
> He seems to, Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum, Gadowsky's Chopin etudes etc.
Did Hamelin record the OC? The only two recordings I am aware of are Ogdon's
and Douglas-Madge's.
Ricardo Wehbe
ric...@cs.uni-sb.de
Chancellor Ross Wyman
piano music of Charles Ives. His Piano Sonata No. 2 "Concord, Mass.,
1840-60" is an extreme test of a pianist's endurance, especially the
second movement. I have heard many recordings but the one that really
seals it for me is Gilbert Kalish on Elektra Nonesuch (Also has Samuel
Baron on flute and john Graham on viola).
Also, one of the hardest and maybe emotionally taxing concertos I have
ever looked at (I'll never learn this stuff. Oh well.) is the Busoni
Piano Concerto.
For those of you who say that music that came after Chopin got harder,
what about his etudes? And his piano concertos? IMHO, Chopin's music
is extremely difficult technically, but it is also very musical, making it
harder to play because a pianist has to satisfy several aspects of
Chopin's music to avoid sounding cold and polished. It was the fact that
Chopin wrote music that was so temptingly virtuosic but had so much music in
it, you couldn't just use it solely as a vehicle to show off your
pianistic skill. In fact, that was the type of attitude that Chopin
shied away from. But the technical difficulties of his music are there.
That really is a test of a composer. Being able to satisfy many aspects
of composition in order to give your music a large amount of depth. Even
pieces by Chopin that sound superficially schlocky or even light have
undercurrents that help to override that initial feeling and provide
musical depth. Probably why so many pianists program his works and why I
find Chopin to be one of the most satisfying composers to listen to and play.
Craig Mirate
in the first movement in particular. Try following
Beethoven's own metronome marking. "The prescribed tempo
CANNOT be attained, or even approached on any instrument in
the world, be he (the performer) the devil incarnate." -- A.
Brendel.
That piece is difficult enough as it is. One need not to look
at Lizst, Rachmaninoff, or whoever else out there for
difficult works. I am not impressed by one's ability to play
technically difficult works if one cannot play them musically
well. I am impressed by one's abiltiy to play works musically
well, regardless of their degree of technical difficulty.
Craig
Hajime Kobayashi
Though I got the score 15 years ago, I have
never even tried to play myself. Anyone
knows about recordings other than Pollini's?
Scriabin's Sonates and Rachmaninoff's Sonate
#2 are those I myself found hard to play, but
they don't match Boulez's, purely technically.
Personally, I view Chopin's Scherzo #4, Bach-
Buzoni's Chaconne, and Ravel's Gaspard de
la nuit as hard both technically and musically.
Craig Mirate
Dave Dalle
>
> For those of you who say that music that came after Chopin got harder,
> what about his etudes? And his piano concertos? IMHO, Chopin's music
> is extremely difficult technically, but it is also very musical, making it
> harder to play because a pianist has to satisfy several aspects of
> Chopin's music to avoid sounding cold and polished. It was the fact that
> Chopin wrote music that was so temptingly virtuosic but had so much music in
> it, you couldn't just use it solely as a vehicle to show off your
> pianistic skill. In fact, that was the type of attitude that Chopin
> shied away from. But the technical difficulties of his music are there.
> That really is a test of a composer. Being able to satisfy many aspects
> of composition in order to give your music a large amount of depth. Even
> pieces by Chopin that sound superficially schlocky or even light have
> undercurrents that help to override that initial feeling and provide
> musical depth. Probably why so many pianists program his works and why I
> find Chopin to be one of the most satisfying composers to listen to and play.
A truth about piano music, it takes a very good, very skilled pianist to
play any piano music well, regardless of how 'easy' it is.
C.J. Poux
tchaikovsky concerto #2 and liszt's rhapsodie espagnol (and lazar berman
does a real bang-up job on it too!)
poo
Erica Schulman
Dalle) says:
>
>& Wehbe (ric...@cs.uni-sb.de) writes:
>> Dave Dalle writes:
>>
>> [about Marc-Andre' Hamelin seeking pieces because they are difficult]
>>
>>> He seems to, Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum, Gadowsky's Chopin etudes
>etc.
>>
>> Did Hamelin record the OC? The only two recordings I am aware of are Ogdon's
>> and Douglas-Madge's.
>
No, he hasn't performed it either, certainly not in its entirety. The
only Sorabji I am aware of that he has publicly performed is the First
Sonata.
Philip R. Stevens
> What about Pierre Boulez's Piano Sonate #2?
> Though I got the score 15 years ago, I have
> never even tried to play myself. Anyone
The Naxos disc of Idil Biret playing Boulez's Piano Sonatas 1, 2 and 3 is
stunning! But it is surely tough to make any sense of the pieces, even
after repeated listenings.
--
Phil Stevens, Ottawa, Canada
Dave Dalle
& Wehbe (ric...@cs.uni-sb.de) writes:
> Dave Dalle writes:
>
> [about Marc-Andre' Hamelin seeking pieces because they are difficult]
>
>> He seems to, Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum, Gadowsky's Chopin etudes etc.
>
> Did Hamelin record the OC? The only two recordings I am aware of are Ogdon's
> and Douglas-Madge's.
No he hasn't, but he's performed it in its entirety.
Alistair Hinton
> Dave Dalle writes:
>
> [about Marc-Andre' Hamelin seeking pieces because they are
difficult]
>
>> He seems to, Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum, Gadowsky's
Chopin etudes etc.
>
> Did Hamelin record the OC? The only two recordings I am aware
of are Ogdon's
> and Douglas-Madge's.
No he hasn't, but he's performed it in its entirety.
So says Dave Dalle...
We at the Sorabji Archive are unaware that Hamelin (who is of
course well known to us) has performed ANY of Sorabji's Opus
Clavicembalisticum in public - he did turn pages for the second
part of it in G. D. Madge's Montréal performance of it at least
ten years ago, though...
Alistair Hinton, Curator / Director, The Sorabji Archive
IJ Crutchley
toughies, try LEMMA-ICON-EPIGRAM by Brian Ferneyhough, CONCORD SONATA by
Charles Ives and ENGLISH COUNTRY TUNES by Michael Finnisy.
I submit these as I assume that what you are refferring to is the difficulty of
actual execution.