Old-Italian text: Orlando di Lasso
Loekie Ratelkous
I am intrigued by the the German translation of the italian song "Matona
mia cara" by Orlando di Lasso (~1532-1594). Our choir sings it from page
53 of "Ars Musica IV".
We like to know what we sing, and because we don't know any Italian, we
have to rely on the German translation (Landsknechtständchen) that is also
printed under the score.
Italian (16th century):
1
Matona mia cara, mi follere canzon,
cantar sotto finestra lantze buon compagnon.
2
Ti prego m'ascoltare, che mi cantar de bon,
e mi ti foller bene come greco e capon
3
Comandar a la cacce, caccar con le falcon
mi ti portar beccacce, grasse comerognon
4
Se mi non saper dire tante belle rason
petrarcha mi non saper, ne fonte d'Helicon
5
Se ti mi foller bene, mi non esser poltron,
mi baciar tutta notte, ballar come monton
===
Printed German text (can be sung)
1
Herz allerliebstes Mädel hör an mein Liedel hell
Der Landsknecht unterm Fenster ist dir dein gut Gesell.
2
Ach, wolltest du doch hören, wie schön mein Lieder klingt,
Kein Vöglein unterm Fenster dir je ein schönres singt.
3
Ach, dass ich wär ein Jäger, ich bracht dir von der Jagd
ein zartes, braunes Rehlein, dir gleich, liebwerte Magd.
4
Das Rehlein könntst du zämen wie deinen Landsknecht gut,
wollst du mit deinem Lieben stillen sein' wilden Mut.
5
So bald du ihn erhöret, hast du ihm zahm gemacht,
kannst fröhlich sein und lachen mit ihm bei Tag und Nacht
===
We (Dutchmen) were satisfied, but now a candidate-member (who could not
sing...) behaved that the Germantext deviates strongly in meaning from
the Italian, only to make it possible to sing this German text.
Does anyone know the truth in this matter? Has somebody a concise
translation in German, English, or preferably in Dutch? Any translator
pitying us?
Loekie
PS:
Sorry voor het Engels: cross-posting!
PS2: repeated posting , yesterday's went astray I think
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Are you sure you want to know? For a start, the version you have is
'bowdlerized', i.e. cleaned up -- in the last verse, the original
'ficcar' is replaced with 'baciar'... and that original means exactly
what it looks like from an English speaker's point of view. For
translations see:
http://choralnet.org/music/viewTitle.phtml?titleid=22531
(Scroll down the page to see comments and translations.)
--
Regards,
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Helsinki, Finland
"Nil significat nisi oscillat. Du vap. Du vap. Du vap."
Marcello Penso
says...
I don't know German, and after some quick research, I've found various
versions of the song's text. This seems to me, to be the most
trustworthy, though I don't have any authentic sources:
Matona mia cara, mi follere canzon
Matona (a very unusual name, a probably a corruption of Madonna) my dear,
I want to sing (note that follere could be an early version of volere (to
want) or folle (mad, insane). There is also folleggiare (to behave like a
fool, to make merry frolic) which may be the closest in meaning, i.e. to
sing madly and merrily.)
cantar sotto finestra, Lanze bon compagnon.
sing under a window, Lanze my good friend
Don don don diridiridon don don don
Syllabing...
Ti prego m'ascoltare che mi cantar de bon
Please listen to me, since my singing is swell (it could be just 'since
my singing is good', but the singer seems to have a bit of swagger)
e mi ti foller bene come greco e capon.
And I love you dearly like greco e capon (must be a reference to a
particular dish, a meal. Greco is literally Greek, but it also refers to
a northeasterly wind. Capon could be either a fish (gurnard) or a
corruption of cappone (castrated cock).
Don don don diridiridon don don don
Com'andar alle cazze, cazzar con le falcon,
Like going hunting, hunting with falcons (note that 'cazze' is easily a
corruption of 'caccie' (hunting), but it could be a kind of precursor of
'cazzo' (cock / penis). This later meaning is a little far because it
would require the word to swing from the feminine to the masculine
(cazz'e' to cazz'o'.) In any case some food for thought.)
mi ti portar beccazze, grasse come rognon
I'll bring you large woodcocks, fat like kidneys
Don don don diridiridon don don don
Se mi non saper dire tante belle rason
If I don't know how to say many nice thoughts ('Se' could also be
'Though' in this context)
Petrarca mi non saper, ne fonte d'Helicon.
Petrarch I don't know, nor the source of Helicon
Don don don diridiridon don don don
Se ti mi foller bene mi non esser poltron;
If you love me dearly, I'm not a slouch (the literal translation is 'I'm
not a lounge chair', or any cushioned seat)
mi ficcar tutta notte, urtar come monton
I'll thrust all night, knocking like a ram ('ficcar' literally means to
thrust, drive or poke, but given the swagger of the singer, a more
appropriate term might be 'screw' or 'bang' which are heavier in tone,
but not as vulgar as fuck.)
Don don don diridiridon don don don
Marcello
gustav
Marcellos Übersetzung ist *sehr* gut, aber man muss hinzufügen, dass
der Text ein Witz ist, vielleicht ein Spaß in einer
Karnevalsveranstaltung am Münchner Hof. Vorgestellt wird ein deutscher
Landsknecht in Italien, der zur Laute ("don-don-don") schlechtes, sehr
deutsch gefärbtes Italienisch singt und sich schlecht benimmt. Das
passt auch gut zu Briefen Lassos (unter anderem an seinen Arbeitgeber,
den bayerischen Herzog), in denen er in einer bunten Mischung aus
Italienisch, Französisch, Deutsch und Latein z.T. recht derbe Scherze
macht.
Die deutsche Übersetzung, die in Ars Musica abgedruckt ist, stammt
wohl aus dem ersten Drittel des 20. Jahrhunderts (von wem sie ist,
müsste in AM IV stehen, ich habe es jetzt nicht da). Sie verharmlost
den Text, sonst hätte man ihn damals nicht singen können, denn
Italienisch war deutschen Chören damals nicht zuzumuten. Es wäre ja
auch heutzutage nicht ganz einfach, aber wenn man den Originaltext
singt, versteht ohnehin niemand das Italienisch.
Gustav
Bill Pittman
g_ri...@web.de (gustav) wrote:
> Marcello Penso <m.p...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:<MPG.18a2457da...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
> > In article <b19jao$10b55p$1...@ID-73614.news.dfncis.de>, l...@12move.nl
> > says...
> > >
> > > I am intrigued by the the German translation of the italian song "Matona
> > > mia cara" by Orlando di Lasso (~1532-1594). Our choir sings it from page
> > > 53 of "Ars Musica IV".
> > > We like to know what we sing, and because we don't know any Italian, we
> > > have to rely on the German translation (Landsknechtständchen) that is
> > > also
> > > printed under the score.
[snip]
Well, I don't have an English translation any more, but I sang one years
ago. It is VERY suggestive - even beyond suggestive. Has such phallic
features as "It is so big and long" - referring to guess what??
Drove one of the female members of our madrigal group crazy!
Loekie Ratelkous
"Loekie Ratelkous" <l...@12move.nl> schreef in bericht
news:b19jao$10b55p$1...@ID-73614.news.dfncis.de...
>
> I am intrigued by the the German translation of the italian song "Matona
> mia cara" by Orlando di Lasso (~1532-1594). Our choir sings it from page
> 53 of "Ars Musica IV".
[...]
> Does anyone know the truth in this matter? Has somebody a concise
> translation in German, English, or preferably in Dutch? Any translator
> pitying us?
>
> Loekie
Well, people: I'm impressed: 4 very relevant answers within half a day,
and no trolls spoiling things!
Andante and Jaakko: Thanks for the 2 links to translations. I'll come back
if a comparison reveals interesting stuff.
Marcello: Thanks for your thorough analysis of the Italian without being
distracted by the German text! Gustav judged it a very good translation,
so thanks very much.
Gustav: Vielen Dank für die Hintergrund des Text-entstehens. Ich wusste
gar nicht, dass Lassus in München gearbeitet hat!
Regarding the author of the German text: Fritz Jöde is mentioned under the
heading "Text Übertragung".
Ist "Text Übertragung" identisch mit Übersetsung, oder wird damit etwas
anderes gemeint?
Regarding singing translations:
I hate singing Translations. Our choir once sang some Bach stuff in a
Dutch translation. German and Dutch are very related languages, that also
have little differences in word order. Yet in your mother tongue you feel
that the new text is forced into the rhitm and melodie. It just hurts.
Italian and German are very different, and the composers chose measure and
rhitm that suits Italian. It is almost impossible to sing the German
multi-consonant-syllabs on such an Italian music.
Thanks for your contributions!
L.
Loekie Ratelkous
"Bill Pittman" <willi...@global2000.net> schreef in bericht
news:williepitt-A02A7...@news.mybizz.net...
Hmm... I find no reference to "big and long" in Marcello's English
translation, not in the german translation. Could one of the other
madrigalists reproduce the translation?
About time that I go online to check the translations that I got links
for...
> Drove one of the female members of our madrigal group crazy!
Can understand that. I am fond of teasing some quickly-blushing soprano's
in our choir, but I strictly keep away from sexist undertones. This way
also they keep smiling. And what's more beautifull than a smiling soprano?
L.
PS The answer: Lots of them......
Peter T. Daniels
> also they keep smiling. And what's more beautifull than a smiling soprano?
>
> L.
>
> PS The answer: Lots of them......
A tip for improving your English flirting: You could only reply "Lots of
them" if the original had been "What's more beautiful than one smiling
soprano?"; but to "What's more beautiful than a smiling soprano?" you
could answer "Several of them."
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Loekie Ratelkous
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> schreef in bericht
news:3E399E...@worldnet.att.net...
1. This was not to flirt, this was trying to be funny. No need to keep
your daughter indoors...
2. I translate. You have found the reason why I translate from English
into Dutch, not the other way around.
Nevertheless: Thanks for your comment. I'm old, but not too old to learn.
L.
Coby Beck
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3E399E...@worldnet.att.net...
Well, I think I'm intelligent (despite being in Harrington's killfile and
still responding to **o*** - sorry) and have spoken english for 37 years. I
had a father who always tried to make me say "It is I" rather than "It's me"
so am not unaware of technicalities of grammar. But I see no semantic
difference at all between "a soprano" and "one soprano" in the above usage
and can't imagine why one should be replied to differently than the
other...?
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
Dr.Matt
None of these make good flirting strategies. But if the follow-up is
addressed to a specific lady and it is "you, my dear", that may be
more effective.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"Note: no response. Note: no response. Note: no response." --Dave Tholen
Peter T. Daniels
That's the only way it should be done. I only translate into English.
(You'd think some of the smaller CD labels would finally realize that
they distribute unintelligible "English" versions of their liner notes!)
> Nevertheless: Thanks for your comment. I'm old, but not too old to learn.
>
> L.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Peter T. Daniels
I _think_ the problem lies in the antecedent of "them." There's no
plural for it to refer to. But it's a very subtle point and ought to be
considered by those who specialize in analyzing noun phrases.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <3E399E...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Loekie Ratelkous wrote:
> >
> >> also they keep smiling. And what's more beautifull than a smiling soprano?
> >>
> >> L.
> >>
> >> PS The answer: Lots of them......
> >
> >A tip for improving your English flirting: You could only reply "Lots of
> >them" if the original had been "What's more beautiful than one smiling
> >soprano?"; but to "What's more beautiful than a smiling soprano?" you
> >could answer "Several of them."
> >--
> >Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
>
> None of these make good flirting strategies. But if the follow-up is
> addressed to a specific lady and it is "you, my dear", that may be
> more effective.
Only if the lady in question is neither smiling nor a soprano!
Jan Templiner
> (You'd think some of the smaller CD labels would finally realize that
> they distribute unintelligible "English" versions of their liner notes!)
I would find it much more important for the American labels (such as
Delos or Telarc) to realise that there actually are people on this
planet who don't speak English and accordingly translate their liner
notes at least into French and German.
The indeed sometimes problematic English bothers me much less. At least
they've done _something_! I much rather read odd English ("part" instead
of "movement") than the original Estonian text.
Jan
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
>
> Loekie Ratelkous wrote:
> >
> > (snip)
> > 2. I translate. You have found the reason why I translate from English
> > into Dutch, not the other way around.
>
> That's the only way it should be done. I only translate into English.
> (You'd think some of the smaller CD labels would finally realize that
> they distribute unintelligible "English" versions of their liner notes!)
While what you say of CD liner notes is true, I take exception to your
general point. 90% of my work as a professional translator is
translation from Finnish to English, and I am not bilingual in the
technical sense of the term. My entire 10-year academic training was
geared towards writing good idiomatic English, and as a result I
actually write better English than Finnish -- better in the sense of
more fluid and better structured, that is.
Here's a counter-argument: I have found that English native speakers,
especially if they drift into translation from other fields, can
actually produce _worse_ English, not to speak of worse translations.
Michael Dahms
>
> Here's a counter-argument: I have found that English native speakers,
> especially if they drift into translation from other fields, can
> actually produce _worse_ English, not to speak of worse translations.
Please refrain from english language postings to de.rec.musik.klassik (drmk)
drmk is german language only.
Michael Dahms
f'up2p
Peter T. Daniels
Are you referring to the popular composer Arvo Mövement?
(It's also a matter of economics. The budget labels usually try not to
have more than a one- or two-sheet booklet, 4 or at most 8 pages. After
all, you have to pay the annotator, and the translators, and maybe even
the librettist's estate if you print the words.)
Peter T. Daniels
Ich weiss nicht, ob Herr Jan Templiner drmk, nmk, oder rmc liest, und
daher "poste" ich an alle drei "Newsgruppen" bis weitere Information.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
> >
> > Loekie Ratelkous wrote:
> > >
> > > (snip)
> > > 2. I translate. You have found the reason why I translate from English
> > > into Dutch, not the other way around.
> >
> > That's the only way it should be done. I only translate into English.
> > (You'd think some of the smaller CD labels would finally realize that
> > they distribute unintelligible "English" versions of their liner notes!)
>
> While what you say of CD liner notes is true, I take exception to your
> general point. 90% of my work as a professional translator is
> translation from Finnish to English, and I am not bilingual in the
> technical sense of the term. My entire 10-year academic training was
> geared towards writing good idiomatic English, and as a result I
> actually write better English than Finnish -- better in the sense of
> more fluid and better structured, that is.
I am not being merely kind when I say that you are very much the
exception. Even the most fluent second-language speakers of English will
almost inevitably betray their native language somewhere in their
English writing, but _never_ have I found such a betrayal in your
writing. (At least, do you speak with an accent? --The only native Finns
I know are the Assyriologist Simo Parpola and his family, and his
brother the archeologist Asko Parpola, and their English is excellent
but accented. BTW Simo usually writes in German these days, and Asko in
English.)
> Here's a counter-argument: I have found that English native speakers,
> especially if they drift into translation from other fields, can
> actually produce _worse_ English, not to speak of worse translations.
You're telling me!! I just spent $75 for a coffee-table *History of
Writing* published by Flammarion in 2001, and the essays, which are
mostly by distinguished French scholars, were translated by
(native-English-speaker) translators who obviously hadn't the slightest
idea what they were talking about, and the texts, while fully
grammatical, are in places unintelligible gibberish.
(You can see my translations from French in *From Cyrus to Alexander: A
History of the Persian Empire*, by Pierre Briant, and from German in
*Introduction to the Semitic Languages: Text Specimens and Grammatical
Sketches*, by Gotthelf Bergsträßer, both published by Eisenbrauns; and
from both languages in several chapters of *Civilizations of the Ancient
Near East* [orig. pub. Scribners] and in two volumes of source readings
in biblical studies published by Eisenbrauns.)
Coby Beck
> Coby Beck wrote:
> >
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:3E399E...@worldnet.att.net...
>
of
> > > them" if the original had been "What's more beautiful than one smiling
> > > soprano?"; but to "What's more beautiful than a smiling soprano?" you
> > > could answer "Several of them."
> >
> > Well, I think I'm intelligent (despite being in Harrington's killfile
and
> > still responding to **o*** - sorry) and have spoken english for 37
years. I
> > had a father who always tried to make me say "It is I" rather than "It's
me"
> > so am not unaware of technicalities of grammar. But I see no semantic
> > difference at all between "a soprano" and "one soprano" in the above
usage
> > and can't imagine why one should be replied to differently than the
> > other...?
>
> I _think_ the problem lies in the antecedent of "them." There's no
> plural for it to refer to. But it's a very subtle point and ought to be
> considered by those who specialize in analyzing noun phrases.
Actually, I think I see a problem after all, but don't know if it is the one
you mean. One should be able to substitute the answer in place of the
"What..."
ie Q: "What is ...."
A: "<answer> is ..."
But using this logic, the only correct response that comes to mind would be:
Q: "What [is] more beautiful than one smiling soprano?";
A: "A group of smiling sopranos [is more beautiful etc..]
Dr.Matt
In that case, the Gilbertian locution "a bevy of beautiful maidens"
would seem to apply....
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a trip to the bathroom."
Peter T. Daniels
Yes -- that's exactly how syntacticians investigate such questions.
Dr.Matt
Syntacticians like to complain about such usages as "Hopefully, Fred
will succeed." The complaint is usually that the adverb "Hopefully" is
not really modifying the verb in this sentence. The same folks, in the
same paper, have no trouble writing "Theoretically, such a sentence
could mean that Fred will succeed hopefully, rather than, say,
succeeding cynically." In so doing, they use "theoretically" in a
construction analogous to the original use of "Hopefully". I think the
last time I saw this sort of thing happen, it was in a William Safire
column, and I'm still not sure he wasn't being tongue-in-cheek about it.
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
No, I'm afraid I don't speak with an accent. :-) Well, that's not quite
true, since my English tends to morph towards British when I talk to
Brits and towards American when I talk to Americans. I have been
mistaken for an American in Cornwall in the UK, if that counts. While I
am not bilingual in the technical sense (i.e. I did not learn two native
languages in parallel from infancy), I could be considered bilingual in
the broader sense since I began to learn English at an early age -- my
first two years at school were in the US.
The Parpolas, BTW, are colleagues of a good friend of mine who is
Professor of OT Exegesis, but I have never met them myself.
> > Here's a counter-argument: I have found that English native speakers,
> > especially if they drift into translation from other fields, can
> > actually produce _worse_ English, not to speak of worse translations.
> You're telling me!! I just spent $75 for a coffee-table *History of
> Writing* published by Flammarion in 2001, and the essays, which are
> mostly by distinguished French scholars, were translated by
> (native-English-speaker) translators who obviously hadn't the slightest
> idea what they were talking about, and the texts, while fully
> grammatical, are in places unintelligible gibberish.
> (You can see my translations from French in *From Cyrus to Alexander: A
> History of the Persian Empire*, by Pierre Briant, and from German in
> *Introduction to the Semitic Languages: Text Specimens and Grammatical
> Sketches*, by Gotthelf Bergsträßer, both published by Eisenbrauns; and
> from both languages in several chapters of *Civilizations of the Ancient
> Near East* [orig. pub. Scribners] and in two volumes of source readings
> in biblical studies published by Eisenbrauns.)
My translations can be found for instance in liner notes in any
Finlandia Records CD (except for certain re-releases) and in quite a few
Ondine CDs, and in several articles at the Finnish Music Information
Centre website, www.fimic.fi.
Jan Templiner
> Are you referring to the popular composer Arvo Mövement?
No, I was referring to movement as in "first movement of X".
> (It's also a matter of economics. The budget labels usually try not to
> have more than a one- or two-sheet booklet, 4 or at most 8 pages. After
> all, you have to pay the annotator, and the translators, and maybe even
> the librettist's estate if you print the words.)
Yes, I understand that. I don't expect the Naxos notes to be any good,
and usually my expectations are fully met. :)
But the small full-price labels IMO should take a bit more care of their
products.
Jan
Jan Depondt
"frits van lijf" <ajgv...@home.nl> schreef in bericht
news:b1g4lq$11u038$1...@ID-160930.news.dfncis.de...
| U gelieve er rekening mee te houden dat NL.MUZIEK.KLASSIEK een
| Nederlandstalige nieuwsgroep is.
|
| Frits van Lijf
|
|
There's a possibility that participants (in this discussion) in
de.rec.musik.klassik and rec.music.classical don't understand Dutch.
--
Jan Depondt
____________________________
mail: jdptATwanadoo.nl
Jan Depondt
|
| "Jan Depondt" <jdno...@wanadoo.nl> schreef in bericht
| news:b1g9q3$120qnj$1...@ID-79646.news.dfncis.de...
| >
| > "frits van lijf" <ajgv...@home.nl> schreef in bericht
| > news:b1g4lq$11u038$1...@ID-160930.news.dfncis.de...
| > | U gelieve er rekening mee te houden dat NL.MUZIEK.KLASSIEK een
| > | Nederlandstalige nieuwsgroep is.
| > |
| > | Frits van Lijf
| > |
| > |
| >
| > There's a possibility that participants (in this discussion) in
| > de.rec.musik.klassik and rec.music.classical don't understand Dutch.
|
| "oproep" alleen en uitsluitend
| in NL.MUZIEK.KLASSIEK heb gedaan.
|
| En zo ver in weet is hier de voertaal Nederlands.
|
| Frits van Lijf
|
|
To me it seems to be quite useless (not to say st....) to ask people in the
Dutch newsgroup ONLY to write in Dutch. If you want to see any result, it's
better to ask so in all newsgroups involved.
Peter T. Daniels
> No, I'm afraid I don't speak with an accent. :-) Well, that's not quite
> true, since my English tends to morph towards British when I talk to
> Brits and towards American when I talk to Americans. I have been
> mistaken for an American in Cornwall in the UK, if that counts. While I
> am not bilingual in the technical sense (i.e. I did not learn two native
> languages in parallel from infancy), I could be considered bilingual in
> the broader sense since I began to learn English at an early age -- my
> first two years at school were in the US.
Sorry, living in an alloglot community for an extended period before
puberty counts as bilingualism. There are plenty of people in Chicago
who never spoke a word of English before entering public school at 5 or
so and end up perfectly bilingual in Polish and English. You're
well-qualified to be not just a translator, but a simultaneous
interpreter as well.
Peter T. Daniels
This is a total lie.
A "Miss Fidditch" or a Wilson Follett is most emphatically not a
syntactician; they are "schoolteachers" or "language mavens" or
"pundits" or "self-appointed curmudgeons," whereas the study of syntax
is a subfield of linguistics, and one of the axioms of linguistics is
that usage is not "right" or "wrong."
> The complaint is usually that the adverb "Hopefully" is
> not really modifying the verb in this sentence.
Moreover, complaints about "hopefully" specifically have vanished:
WNYC's Leonard Lopate loves to point out, every month when his "language
expert" Patricia T. O'Conner shows up, that when he first started doing
such segments 15 years ago (he used to use Richard Lederer), "hopefully"
was still a big complaint, but after 2 or 3 years, it simply dropped out
of sight.
You're talking about "sentence adverbs," and they are ubiquitous in
Germanic languages.
> The same folks, in the
> same paper, have no trouble writing "Theoretically, such a sentence
> could mean that Fred will succeed hopefully, rather than, say,
> succeeding cynically." In so doing, they use "theoretically" in a
> construction analogous to the original use of "Hopefully". I think the
> last time I saw this sort of thing happen, it was in a William Safire
> column, and I'm still not sure he wasn't being tongue-in-cheek about it.
If you take Safire seriously as a "language expert," you ought to read
not only an introduction to phonetics, but also an introduction to
linguistics.
He regularly corresponded with the late Jim McCawley, one of the world's
leading syntacticians, incidentally, and never, never learned anything
even from the patient example set by Jim.
Jim collected odd or amusing data from whatever sources they could be
found in (and distributed an annual "Linguistic Flea Circus" collecting
them), but he did this because they were the spontaneous products of
human speech -- and writing; every so often I'd call him up and dictate
something from *Newsweek* -- and his job was trying to figure out what
was going on inside people's heads when they produced utterances that
didn't match the output of the mechanisms that had already been
identified.
Jan Depondt
|
|
| Sinds je kennelijk niet meer in staat bent om over muziek te schrijven
| schijn ik een dankbaar "object" te zijn waar je je frustraties op kunt los
| laten.
| (Enkele andere personen in deze ng. zijn mij voor gegaan.)
|
| Als dat voor jouw "bevrijvend" werkt, ga rustig je gang.
|
| Welk onderwerp dat je in deze nieuwsgroep aansnijdt of een reactie op een
| bijdrage, die niet over muziek gaan, zullen door mij niet meer worden
| beantwoord.
|
| Frits van Lijf
|
|
LOL
--
Jan Depondt
(remembering some messages about birthdays and stuff like that)
Dr.Matt
>so and end up perfectly bilingual in Polish and English. You're
>well-qualified to be not just a translator, but a simultaneous
>interpreter as well.
With the caution that simultaneous translation involves some special
training, so you don't lose your place in either what you're saying in
the target code or what you're receiving in the source code, etc.
I've seen native bilinguals bomb on simultaneous translation ...
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <3E3BCC...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Jaakko Mäntyjärvi wrote:
> >so and end up perfectly bilingual in Polish and English. You're
> >well-qualified to be not just a translator, but a simultaneous
> >interpreter as well.
>
> With the caution that simultaneous translation involves some special
> training, so you don't lose your place in either what you're saying in
> the target code or what you're receiving in the source code, etc.
> I've seen native bilinguals bomb on simultaneous translation ...
It does take some training ... (but someone not bilingual from childhood
will probably never be successful at it).
"Consecutive interpretation," which we saw for instance when Clinton
went to China and stood up to the authorities on live binational TV, is
less arduous and may possibly be done by non-native-bilinguals.
Dr.Matt
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Dr.Matt wrote:
>>
>> In article <3E3BCC...@worldnet.att.net>,
>> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> >Jaakko Mäntyjärvi wrote:
>> >so and end up perfectly bilingual in Polish and English. You're
>> >well-qualified to be not just a translator, but a simultaneous
>> >interpreter as well.
>>
>> With the caution that simultaneous translation involves some special
>> training, so you don't lose your place in either what you're saying in
>> the target code or what you're receiving in the source code, etc.
>> I've seen native bilinguals bomb on simultaneous translation ...
>
>It does take some training ... (but someone not bilingual from childhood
>will probably never be successful at it).
I've seen excellent ASL simul done both by CODAs (*) and non-natives. So
I'm a bit skeptical of broad brushes like this.
>"Consecutive interpretation," which we saw for instance when Clinton>went to China and stood up to the authorities on live binational TV, is
>less arduous and may possibly be done by non-native-bilinguals.
>--
>Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
(*) Children of Deaf Adults. ASL has very non-English structure,
including a lot of elements from French which were imported by Laurent
Clerc, mixed with some uniquely visual language structures like
directionality which were already present or evolved naturally among
the ASL community. ASL is not a cypher for English, though such a
cypher can also be used, and in the field, the two ways of communicating
are often mixed.
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
I'm not going to dispute that, but in my linguistics studies -- perhaps
this is just a school of thought -- the distinction was made between
people who are 'bilingual proper' (I forget the precise term that was
used), i.e. who have parents with two native languages (or are in a
family living in a foreign-language community) and who learn two
languages concurrently from infancy, and people who learn a second
language clearly after their first language but before the age of 10 or
so, which is when language-learning faculties generally begin to decline.
Certainly I never dream in English...
Peter T. Daniels
CODAs (the acronym is new to me) are a superb example of perfect
bilinguals, especially since they often will have quite limited exposure
to spoken language in their earliest months; but they have no problem
catching up with their hearing classmates when they go off to playgroup
or preschool.
If non-native signers are better at interpretation than true bilinguals,
it may be because the multi-modalism means more brain pathways are put
to use; but I remain skeptical, because the quality of "interpretation"
often provided by well-meaning facilitators can be less than optimal.
(Non-natives are, in fact, as you say, likely to simply transpose
English vocabulary items into equivalent gestures, not having learned
the morphology and syntax. Then you get an abomination called SEE
"Signing Exact English," or something called "Ameslan," which is _not_ a
synonym for "ASL.")
Peter T. Daniels
That _may_ be a distinction without a difference; of the people I know
who are in the second category, they are no less fluent in any of their
native languages than those who got them even earlier.
> Certainly I never dream in English...
Over in sci.lang last week there was a thread with people claiming they
dream in their second, third, etc. languages. I was surprised at how
much they claimed to remember of their dreams.
Dr.Matt
That I didn't say. That would be another broad brush that I didn't paint with.
>it may be because the multi-modalism means more brain pathways are put
>to use; but I remain skeptical, because the quality of "interpretation"
Sounds like a fancy explanation for what may be a non-phenomenon or for
phenomena that don't need such an explanation: some non-native real-time
interpreters are better than others, and the betterness DOESN'T corrolate
with nativeness.
>often provided by well-meaning facilitators can be less than optimal.
>(Non-natives are, in fact, as you say, likely to simply transpose
>English vocabulary items into equivalent gestures, not having learned
No, I DIDN'T say that. Quite the opposite: native DEAF mix English
GRAMMAR into what is generally accepted to be their native ASL grammar
in ways that vary from community to community.
>the morphology and syntax. Then you get an abomination called SEE
>"Signing Exact English," or something called "Ameslan," which is _not_ a
>synonym for "ASL.")
SEE is indeed a very different language from ASL, and if, like me, you
started out as an adult learning some ASL without exposure to SEE,
then SEE is really cryptic the first time you see it!
Again, my thesis was quite the opposite of yours: each interpreter
is different, and excellence in real-time interpretting of ASL
doesn't always corrolate with CODAness.
>--
>Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Dr.Matt
I certainly dream in color and dodecaphony, but I'm not at all sure
what that means....
Margaret Mikulska
> I'm not going to dispute that, but in my linguistics studies -- perhaps
> this is just a school of thought -- the distinction was made between
> people who are 'bilingual proper' (I forget the precise term that was
> used), i.e. who have parents with two native languages (or are in a
> family living in a foreign-language community) and who learn two
> languages concurrently from infancy, and people who learn a second
> language clearly after their first language but before the age of 10 or
> so, which is when language-learning faculties generally begin to decline.
But the motivation increases.
> Certainly I never dream in English...
I dream in various languages.
If you think in words and sentences, don't you think in various
languages?
-Margaret
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
To be sure. I think in both Finnish and English and can easily switch
between the two. If involved in a project with one of my 'second-tier'
languages -- German or Swedish -- I may end up thinking in that language
for that project, although such cases are rare and demand exceptional
focus. However, I have absolutely no recollection of ever dreaming in
anything else but Finnish (not all dreams even have an identifiable
linguistic component, of course). I couldn't say why.
Keith Edgerley
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> a écrit dans le message de
news: 3E3C0B...@worldnet.att.net...
> Dr.Matt wrote:
> >
> > In article <3E3BCC...@worldnet.att.net>,
> > Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > >Jaakko Mäntyjärvi wrote:
> > >so and end up perfectly bilingual in Polish and English. You're
> > >well-qualified to be not just a translator, but a simultaneous
> > >interpreter as well.
> >
> > With the caution that simultaneous translation involves some special
> > training, so you don't lose your place in either what you're saying in
> > the target code or what you're receiving in the source code, etc.
> > I've seen native bilinguals bomb on simultaneous translation ...
>
> It does take some training ... (but someone not bilingual from childhood
> will probably never be successful at it).
Well, I have known a fair number of simultaneous interpreters, permanent or
freelance employees of international organizations, and only one I suspect
to have been raised bilingual, and even then I'm not sure. The main problem
with simultaneous interpreting is brain-fag: after about 20 minutes your
brain tends to seize up, which is why interpreters sitting in their little
booths mostly work in pairs.
> "Consecutive interpretation," which we saw for instance when Clinton
> went to China and stood up to the authorities on live binational TV, is
> less arduous and may possibly be done by non-native-bilinguals.
The problem with consecutive interpretation is remembering everything that
has been said. A friend of mine invented his own shorthand for this, but
that's no use when you are standing next to the speaker.
The whole point about translation is that the translator should not only
translate into his mother tongue, but he must be skilled at expressing
himself in speech or writing in his mother tongue. I can find you any number
of bnilingal people round here; farmers, electricians, shop assistants,
what have you, who would be hopeless if asked to do any translating or
interpreting.
Incidentally, our Swiss census forms include a box for mother tongue,
defined not as the one learnt at your mother's knee, but as the one you
think in.
Keith Edgerley
mike
news:3E3D0938...@pp.htv.fi:
perhaps because speech expression is the most unstable, time dependent,
form of language? that your visual progress in the the dream is actually
structured according to language principles? that you visualize in
Finnish, perhaps, or not? and that the dream itself takes the form of the
level of sleep? that you might actually have your dreams organized by
your physical self, your body needs and responses? and that the dream
presented to consciousness is decoded into the wake state level you're at
when you become conscious of dream/awake duality? the particular look of
the dream, memory of the dream, dependent on when you wake up and why you
wake up? just as your awareness of music varies over the listening to a
piece?
you're speaking of the mystery of dreams, but the presentedness of awake
is just as ambiguously mysterious.
margaret's probably way more intelligent than most of us, and i believe
her when she says she dreams in different langauges -- these are speech
sets, after all, and not "modes" of language.
mike
news:3e3d3...@news.bluewin.ch:
that's kind of misleading, i think. even, for sure, some Swiss speak
German to their kids when they're angry, but French when they're happy
with them.
not Swiss, but i think in French for realms which i learnt of in French,
and German for some other realms, and English for other things. not
bilingual, but the speech set seems to shape out to whatever music i'm
running in my head at the moment anyway. speech acts sometimes are just
sonar bursts for orientation in the murk.
to tick the box of the language you're using to think about the language
you use to think in -- that is a nice little loop.
Marcello Penso
orang...@aol.com says...
(or what portions of dream bits I remember anyway) in Italian.
One thing I've noticed: If I'm in Italy, I tend to dream more about US
city/townscapes. In the US I tend to dream more about Italian ones. Not
that they are accurate by any means, more like melded concoctions of
roads or streets with an invented urbanscape that matches somewhat
wthe character and feel of what my memory of the city was. For instance,
I'll dream about a certain street and in my dream I'll believe it's Rome,
though when I wake up and think about the geography of the dream, I'll
know it doesn't match anything specific in Rome, though the feel of the
context is 'Rome'.
One time I had a spectacular dream of driving on a cliffside road
overlooking the ocean. The place in the dream was 'Thailand', but the
road was more like an exaggeration of the coastal road in Amalfi, or
Portofino.
I tried simultaneous translating a few times 10 years ago, in Vicenza
(translating from Italian to English). It was terribly exhausting and
I was not very good at it. I'm in awe of people who can do it. It
requires some talent.
Marcello
Peter T. Daniels
> The whole point about translation is that the translator should not only
> translate into his mother tongue, but he must be skilled at expressing
> himself in speech or writing in his mother tongue. I can find you any number
> of bnilingal people round here; farmers, electricians, shop assistants,
> what have you, who would be hopeless if asked to do any translating or
> interpreting.
That's where the training would come in. They have the raw material that
needs to be refined.
Bill Pittman
"Loekie Ratelkous" <l...@12move.nl> wrote:
> We (Dutchmen) were satisfied, but now a candidate-member (who could not
> sing...) behaved that the Germantext deviates strongly in meaning from
> the Italian, only to make it possible to sing this German text.
>
> Does anyone know the truth in this matter? Has somebody a concise
> translation in German, English, or preferably in Dutch? Any translator
> pitying us?
There is a published English translation, that I sang about 25 years
ago. It is VERY suggestive, as I have previously posted. I remember no
more about it, but a music store could probably locate a madrigal
collection that contains it.
Loekie Ratelkous
"Bill Pittman" <willi...@global2000.net> schreef in bericht
news:williepitt-09E78...@news.mybizz.net...
Thanxs. Ill search there!
L.