Variations on the spelling of Tchaikovsky?
Geoffrey
Would appreciate knowing of all spellings for newsgroup searches.
TIA,
Geoffrey
p.s. I don't know if this is the best group to ask this question,
would appreciate knowing if a better one.
Ehrlich606
>I know of "Tschaikowsky". Is there also a spelling with a "z"?
>
>Would appreciate knowing of all spellings for newsgroup searches.
>
>
>TIA,
Best way to approach this is take the transliteration of the Russian and go
from there.
In Russian, it is "Chaikovskii", where "ch" is one letter
In German, "Tschaikowsky"
In French, "Tchaikovsky" -- that is what we usually use.
In Hungarian, it would be "Csaikovszki", while in Polish it would be
"Czaikowski"
(more or less, under their rules of orthography.) But I don't think that even
Hungarians or Poles would use such a spelling, they would probably prefer the
French. (NB: Other Slavics and Romances would follow the French also, but I
believe in Italian it is spelt "Caikovsky" at times.)
Geoffrey
I believe I may have seen it spelled also with a z (?).
Has anyone heard of such a spelling with a z?
Geoffrey Mangers
Ehrlich606 <ehrli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000412160730...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
Geoffrey
started by:
david & mark price
Subject: "How do you spell Tchaikovsky?"
11/23/1999
Which I discovered on a Deja News search. Lots of etymological studies but
wasn't able to find many alternative spellings except:
Czajkowski
Chaikovskiy
Ciajkovskij
Isn't there a spelling with an initial T and then a "z" somewhere afterward?
Geoffrey Mangers
Geoffrey <RemoveThisPrefixToRe...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:Je6J4.11539$q67.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Margaret Mikulska
>
> [The original poster:]
>
> >I know of "Tschaikowsky". Is there also a spelling with a "z"?
> >
> >Would appreciate knowing of all spellings for newsgroup searches.
>
> from there.
>
> In Russian, it is "Chaikovskii", where "ch" is one letter
And where the 'i' above represents two different (although similar)
Cyrillic characters: the first and the last is the so-called "short i"
(i korotkoye), and is pronounced like the initial 'y' in English. It
consists of the Cyrillic character 'i' (which is shaped |/|) with a
diacritics above.
> In German, "Tschaikowsky"
>
> In French, "Tchaikovsky" -- that is what we usually use.
>
> In Hungarian, it would be "Csaikovszki", while in Polish it would be
> "Czaikowski"
> (more or less, under their rules of orthography.) But I don't think that even
> Hungarians or Poles would use such a spelling, they would probably prefer the
> French.
The Polish spelling is "Czajkowski", with an 'j'. I don't understand
what you mean by "more or less, under their rules of orthography." I'm
even more puzzled at your speculation what other nations "would" use. I
can tell you for sure that "Czajkowski" is the only spelling used in
Polish texts, and that there is absolutely no reason why Poles would
prefer the French spelling. (It was never used in Poland.) On the
contrary, there was at times a tendency to spell very many non-Slavic
foreign names "the Polish way" - "Chopin" was "Szopen", and there were
also Szubert and Szumann. (Nowadays, it's back to "Chopin" and "Sch" in
German names.) I'd be most interested to know how you arrived at this
conclusion. (Sarcasm notwithstanding, I'm really curious how one
guesses trends and preferences in a foreign language one doesn't know.)
>(NB: Other Slavics and Romances would follow the French also, but I
> believe in Italian it is spelt "Caikovsky" at times.)
Which "other Slavics" follow the French spelling?
-Margaret
Michael Subotin
>
> Ehrlich606 wrote:
>
> > believe in Italian it is spelt "Caikovsky" at times.)
>
Ciaikovski, Ciaikovsky, and Ciajkovskij all seem to be common. The most
Italianate variant would be Ciaicovschi, which I don't think is used
much, if at all.
Michael
--
i...@vms.cis.pitt{DOT}edu Replace {DOT} with a dot
Peter T. Daniels
> believe in Italian it is spelt "Caikovsky" at times.)
It would have to be Ciai- ? (The k and y are pretty unlikely, too!)
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Geoffrey
a bell on my Deja searches--I fear I may be re-igniting the whole etymological
mining operation. Which is fine if you folks want to do that (I certainly
don't mind one way or the other). I'm primarily interested in the variations
on the spellings.
To recapitulate what we have so far:
Caikovsky
Cajkovskij (The C with the "upside-down" caret)
--forgot this one in my previous post
Chaikovskii
Chaikovskiy
Ciajkovskij
Csaikovszki
Czajkowski
Tchaikovsky
Tschaikowsky
Geoffrey
p.s. Still looking for that spelling(s) with an initial T and a "z" somewhere
afterward.
Varga Gyorgy
> In Hungarian, it would be "Csaikovszki", while in Pol ish it would be
> "Czaikowski"
> (more or less, under their rules of orthography.) But I don't think that even
> Hungarians or Poles would use such a spelling, they would probably prefer the
> French.
In Hungarian, it is Csajkovszkij. We use just this spelling.
----
Varga György
Brett Langston
from "Geoffrey"
<RemoveThisPrefixToRe...@earthlink.net> contains
these words:
> I know of "Tschaikowsky". Is there also a spelling with a "z"?
> Would appreciate knowing of all spellings for newsgroup searches.
OK, you asked for it :-) These are taken from titles of
biographies of the composer, in various languages:
Cajkovskij, Chaikofuskii, Chaikofusuki, Chaikofusukii, Chaikovskii,
Chaikovskii, Chaikovsky, Chaykovsky, Ciaikovsky, Ciaikowski,
Csajkovszkij, Csakovskij, Czajkowski, Tchaikovski, Tchaikovsky,
Tchaikowsky, Tjajkovskij, Tschaikovski, Tschaikowski, Tschaikowskij,
Tschaikowsky,
Tsjaikofski, Tsjaikofsky, Tsjaikovskiej, Tsjakowski
I'm sure there will be many others ...
Hope this helps,
Brett Langston
The Tchaikovsky Web Site
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/blangston/pitch/
Tina Nylund
"Geoffrey" <RemovePrefix_g...@earthlink.net> writes:
> I know of "Tschaikowsky". Is there also a spelling with a "z"?
>
> Would appreciate knowing of all spellings for newsgroup searches.
In Sweden we usually go for Tjajkovskij, I think I've also seen
Tjajkovsky, but that was probably written by some person who
mixed up the Swedish spelling with the English or something...
But sorry, no 'z'... :)
- Tina Nylund
jbay...@hotmail.com
"Geoffrey" <RemoveThisPrefixToRe...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
<snip>
> To recapitulate what we have so far:
>
> Caikovsky
> Cajkovskij (The C with the "upside-down" caret)
> --forgot this one in my previous post
> Chaikovskii
> Chaikovskiy
> Ciajkovskij
> Csaikovszki
> Czajkowski
> Tchaikovsky
> Tschaikowsky
It's usually Tchaikowsky or Tchaikovsky.
Interestingly, we don't yet have Chaikovsky, which, from an English
orthographical standpoint, is the most logical.
The linguist Charles Harrington Elster has written a book called
"There is no Zoo in Zoology". I wish he would write one called
"There is no Cow in Tchiakowsky".
John
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Peter T. Daniels
May I recommend *The Well-Tempered Announcer*, by Robert Fradkin
(Indiana UP, 1997 or so), an enormously comprehensive guide to
pronouncing languages that classical music announcers are likely to
encounter -- in such a way that the results are neither unrecognizable
to a speaker of the original, or utterly weird to the English-speaking
hearer. It includes a glossary of hundreds of names (and terms) that
should suffice for just about anyone.
He's a linguistics professor at the University of Maryland.
[The problem with <Chaikovsky> is that it mixes up about three different
systems for transliterating the Russian alphabet.]
Margaret Mikulska
>
> May I recommend *The Well-Tempered Announcer*, by Robert Fradkin
> (Indiana UP, 1997 or so), an enormously comprehensive guide to
> pronouncing languages that classical music announcers are likely to
> encounter -- in such a way that the results are neither unrecognizable
> to a speaker of the original, or utterly weird to the English-speaking
> hearer. It includes a glossary of hundreds of names (and terms) that
> should suffice for just about anyone.
Fradkin is unfortunately not very reliable when it comes to languages
used East of Germany. The book is not bad, but it has its share of
errors. Use with caution.
-Margaret
Margaret Mikulska
>[...]
> Interestingly, we don't yet have Chaikovsky, which, from an English
> orthographical standpoint, is the most logical.
[...]
And that's why some scholars use it. (Taruskin uses this spelling.)
It's certainly much more consistent with English spelling in general.
-Margaret
Peter T. Daniels
He is *very* eager for corrections and improvements. I'll pass on this message so
that he can contact you privately.
Alex Bach Andersen
dateret 12 Apr, forfattede Geoffrey:
> I know of "Tschaikowsky". Is there also a spelling with a "z"?
>
> Would appreciate knowing of all spellings for newsgroup searches.
I believe Czajkowski is the Polish variant, the Danish is Tjajkovskij.
--
Alex Bach Andersen, free-lance conductor UIN: 8285066
NodeSats/MusicTypesetting - Acorn RISC PC 600 - 710ARMed
Copenhagen, Denmark http://isa.dknet.dk/~alexbach/
... Sometimes you just have to say 'What the heck'
Geoffrey
Alas, no one so far has indicated the initial T and latter z spelling
(e.g. Tzai.., Tzchai.., maybe something like Tcz. ??).
I don't know if this is some kind if dyslexic hallucination from my youth but
I could almost swear I've seen it somewhere spelled with a T and z. It's
probably an "Americanism" or such type of "bastardisation" of the spelling
(I suspect it will drive the etymological lot nuts :) ).
SavvySearch brings up about 4 or so references (but they seem suspect) with a
spelling of "Tzaikovsky".
Thanks again for all your help.
Geoffrey
Margaret Mikulska
>
> Margaret Mikulska <miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Fradkin is unfortunately not very reliable when it comes to languages
> > used East of Germany. The book is not bad, but it has its share of
> > errors. Use with caution.
>
> He is *very* eager for corrections and improvements. I'll pass on this message so
> that he can contact you privately.
Thank you. I look forward to hearing from your colleague.
-Margaret
Gary Goldberg
<miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
> >
> > May I recommend *The Well-Tempered Announcer*, by Robert Fradkin
> > (Indiana UP, 1997 or so), an enormously comprehensive guide to
> > pronouncing languages that classical music announcers are likely to
> > encounter -- in such a way that the results are neither unrecognizable
> > to a speaker of the original, or utterly weird to the English-speaking
> > hearer. It includes a glossary of hundreds of names (and terms) that
> > should suffice for just about anyone.
>
> Fradkin is unfortunately not very reliable when it comes to languages
> used East of Germany. The book is not bad, but it has its share of
> errors. Use with caution.
Actually, I must agree. He says the stress on Glazunov is on the 1st
syllable, even though it's on the last.
He resisted correcting this until I showed him a reference work (Unbegaun).
BTW, Fradkin knows Russian and may even teach the subject, if I remember
his credentials!
I challenged him because I used to be a Russian linguist myself.
BTW, one often sees Tschaikowsky in English because that's the German way
of spelling and perhaps someone carried it over into English usage.
it
--
Illiterate? Write for free help!
(Remove "X" from address to reply)
Bruno Galeron
> In French, "Tchaikovsky" -- that is what we usually use.
>
Isn't the French spelling "Tchaďkovski" ?
Regards
Bruno Galeron
Alex Bach Andersen
dateret 19 Apr, forfattede Bruno Galeron:
> >
> > In French, "Tchaikovsky" -- that is what we usually use.
> >
>
>
> Isn't the French spelling "Tchaïkovski" ?
>
Je ne sais pas!
Could be Chaïkovski perhaps?
--
Alex Bach Andersen, free-lance conductor UIN: 8285066
NodeSats/MusicTypesetting - Acorn RISC PC 600 - 710ARMed
Copenhagen, Denmark http://isa.dknet.dk/~alexbach/
... Doing my part to preserve order in the universe
Gary Goldberg
<alex...@isa.dkNOSPAMnet.dk> wrote:
> I indlćgget <ZmfL4.1416$FE.59...@nnrp1.proxad.net>
> dateret 19 Apr, forfattede Bruno Galeron:
>
> > >
> > > In French, "Tchaikovsky" -- that is what we usually use.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Isn't the French spelling "Tchaďkovski" ?
> >
> Je ne sais pas!
>
> Could be Chaďkovski perhaps?
No, from the little French I know "Ch..." is a "sh..." sound.